EPTThanks for the help
[R] Zerg Counter to High Templar?
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LuCiD37
United States150 Posts
Thanks for the help | ||
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N(o)sarcasm
11 Posts
What I find to usually be one of the best counters to high templar are the infestor. Not for the obvious reasons though, for the not so used ability of infested terran. I know this seems sort of "Eh? What the hell is this guy saying?" But let me explain a bit. Most of the time, high templars are kept in the back of the group, this allows for you to use an infestor to get a bit of a jump on them. Not only because they move exceedingly fast while burrowed, but because high templars move incredibly slow whether on or off creep. This, although sometimes better utilized on colossus and immortal, can prove to be a great help. The infested terran do enough focus damage in groups of 4, that is, four infested terrans, to beat a high templar with a 1.5 shot volley. Now, what does this do for you? Well, it lets your Infestor stay burrowed, and likely get away whilst the opponent is dealing with this newfound tactic. It lets your army get into a better concave, or at least it should. Also, I wouldn't expect the critical mass of colossus being reached if they're expending any sort of tech on the high templar, as well as its extremely gas heavy cost. The high templars at this point have limited options. One is to run, and risk getting slaughtered a bit more. Two is to use their storms on the infested terran. While I sincerely doubt it would be the latter, if they chose to do so, then it'll give you ample time to move in and kill off that army without the templars bothering you so much. I hope this helps you out at least in part. It's done a bit for me in these types of match ups. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
Those buggers can easily tank storms, especially with the inceased HP regen upgrade. Let your roaches soak up the storm damage and burrow them. Then laugh as the storm does nothing. If you scout the Protoss going templar tech, make your composition a little more roach heavy as opposed to hydra heavy. Honestly, because of roaches and their retardedly high HP, I tend to not go templar tech in PvZ. | ||
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obsid
United States389 Posts
 Not sure if its a bug or not, but assuming its not (and I think the game is more balanced and fun with it not a bug). The guy going for high temps, probably isnt going to have observers out (and that requires a totaly diffrent tech tree). Oh and if he does have an obs, 9 range of nerual parasite is quite long, he probably wont even see you still after you neural and then storm his own guys. | ||
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
Like the idea with infestor ! The roach one has just failed for me so far : / Stalkers and and forcefil just laughs and when I burrow mr.observer just points on them and laugh : / | ||
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LuCiD37
United States150 Posts
Thanks for the help so far, if anyone else has any other ideas I would love to hear them. In the meantime, going to try this out! | ||
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Really though, should post a replay  | ||
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imPERSONater
United States1324 Posts
I like the roach burrow move since I generally get roaches to deal with 2 gates and such. Also I tend to avoid mutas because that is just another unit needing gas and it tends to deplete roach counts drastically. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
Lategame, ultras all the way. | ||
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Buffy
Sweden665 Posts
those slow bastards are not so tight with the rest of the units so sniping them should not be to hard for anyone | ||
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Kratisto
United States199 Posts
High Templar are "Light". A well-placed baneling can melt a thousand gas worth of poorly-placed templar. It might be worth experimenting with baneling bombing and baneling traps for situations where you're not incredibly lucky or your opponent hilariously incompetent. Banelings aren't great against Zealots, but at least they'll be doing full damage. | ||
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caldo149
United States469 Posts
On July 13 2010 14:50 Buffy wrote: New strat ! Snipe those with mutas was working really fine ! just won a game by doing it ! those slow bastards are not so tight with the rest of the units so sniping them should not be to hard for anyoneThat's not new, it's a tactic used a lot in Broodwar ZvP, often seen with in the 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch hydra build. It's a great idea in BW and SC2, although i can't imagine it being as effective without BW Muta control. | ||
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Jacobs Ladder
United States1705 Posts
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N(o)sarcasm
11 Posts
On July 13 2010 15:09 Kratisto wrote: Protoss player hero. Roaches don't go down quickly to storm like Hydras do. Mutas are quick enough to micro away, and your opponent will have less money sunk into Stalkers and Sentries if he doesn't see it coming, so you might be able to do some sniping. Mobility is key in minimizing damage taken from Storm, so spreading creep would probably be (especially) beneficial. High Templar are "Light". A well-placed baneling can melt a thousand gas worth of poorly-placed templar. It might be worth experimenting with baneling bombing and baneling traps for situations where you're not incredibly lucky or your opponent hilariously incompetent. Banelings aren't great against Zealots, but at least they'll be doing full damage. Not great in one versus one, I agree. Though how often do you see a zerg going one baneling versus one zealot? Pending that great program which lets you do tests, I'd say next to zero. Banelings, en masse, can destroy nearly all ground forces in one fell swoop. The only preventive tactics I know of is force field or mass siege. I am a player of all races, and have been on the giving and receiving end of a group of 30 or so baneling literally rolling in and decimating all but the strongest of units. In most cases, this leaves the immortal, colossus, thor, and ultra, as well as any air units for obvious reasons standing. As a zerg player, if you already have your main force built. That is, you have your muta, hydra, or roach accompanied by any of the viable choices, it's quite easy to macro up more zergling at your disposal, which will reach the destination of your choice in seconds, pending their speed upgrade. This can, and often times will end the game. In the case of you having the units necessary to deal with it. Often times this can leave a zerg fairly beat morally. That is, they -wanted- and -expected- the baneling ball to destroy most of your stuff, and although their army may be enough to defeat said army, they feel sort of helpless against the onslaught. Sometimes this can lead to less micro, as I've witnessed. Aside from the one versus one, this quoted poster makes several valid and great points. Roaches are great to soak up storms, just be careful not to rely on them too much, as colossus and stalker can potentially destroy swarm after swarm of them. =D In what you're trying to deal with though, if you find the infestor tactic to be too gas heavy, then this is a viable option as well. It's really just about what you have at your disposal with x amount of minerals and x amount of gas. | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
Two tricks with this. 1. Do it on creep. 2. Do it somewhere where you have enough space to run in and out without sacrificing your base or anything like that. Zerg sucks at defending and fighting at his base  | ||
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LuCiD37
United States150 Posts
It definitely seems like roaches are the proper (and the most likely and applicable counter- being that having a roach warren is not uncommon at this stage in the game, while and infestor pit or a spire may or may not actually be up). "Roaches. I can understand why so few tosses go for templars instead of robo, because storms tend to do very little profitable dmg if opponent army is based on roaches. Burrowing down and jumping back up in middle of his army doesn't hurt much either, since he doesn't have high dmg dealers such as immos usually with this build." - Ouga Interestingly, in the game I played right before I made this post (and the one which brought me to make the post) I encountered a mixture of immortals and High Templar (along, of course, with a mixture of typical warpgate units). So I obviously am in a bit of a dilemma in that situation if I do go mass roaches. However, I suppose it would not be a bad idea to stick with a roach/hydra build with a generally stronger emphasis on roaches and be quicker on the burrow for both my hydras and my roaches when storms are placed. Unfortunately, I am still vulnerable to an observer in that situation. | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
Storm is basically good for killing hydras, and hydras kill all but storm (well and colossi but we are not talking about those here :D). | ||
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LuCiD37
United States150 Posts
On July 13 2010 18:01 -Archangel- wrote: If he mixes immortals and HT then he has not enough of both. In that case have creep spread and lead him to waste storm mana and then fight him. Storm is basically good for killing hydras, and hydras kill all but storm (well and colossi but we are not talking about those here :D). That sounds right, but what about him expanding? If I am restricted to fighting this composition on creep- I have to wait until my creep has been spread to his base. Yes, I can augment the speed of that process by using overlords and queens more effectively, but can I realistically have creep right outside his main bases where I need it in time? I think what you are saying works if it's on my side of the map, but becomes a bit more iffy when I am off creep. But I guess, like you said, "If he mixes immortals and HT then he has not enough of both", and so I am safe with roaches and lings and using those units offensively (both on and off of creep). Another thing, are hydras altogether out of the equation vs. storm? Perhaps have them in the back and wait until the HTs are compromised? Sorry for my questions becoming very situational | ||
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preaCor
Germany80 Posts
Basically if the enemy has a big army with HT support I check for how much anti air he has. If his army is AA heavy I go ultras, if not I go mass muta and snipe the HTs asap. And never forget that you MUST outmacro a protoss opponent when it gets to lategame in order to stay ahead. His 200 food are - in general - better than your 200 food. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On July 13 2010 18:15 LuCiD37 wrote: That sounds right, but what about him expanding? If I am restricted to fighting this composition on creep- I have to wait until my creep has been spread to his base. Yes, I can augment the speed of that process by using overlords and queens more effectively, but can I realistically have creep right outside his main bases where I need it in time? I think what you are saying works if it's on my side of the map, but becomes a bit more iffy when I am off creep. But I guess, like you said, "If he mixes immortals and HT then he has not enough of both", and so I am safe with roaches and lings and using those units offensively (both on and off of creep). Another thing, are hydras altogether out of the equation vs. storm? Perhaps have them in the back and wait until the HTs are compromised? Sorry for my questions becoming very situational Basically engaging on creep is what you have to do. How will you manage to creep everywhere? Get more queens. By the time you he has HT you should have enough creep to allow you to have enough mobility to contain him. From there on just expand and overpower him or kite his storms. Another strat that I've seen working quite well is transitioning into ultra/roach build. This tends to melt anything really. Hydras aren't useless once he has HTs but as he gets more and more HTs capable of storms Hydras lose their effectiveness really quickly even if you micro them on creep. So you can still go hydra early on but you have to transition out of it if you think the HTs numbers will get too high for your hydra to handle. Same way that hydra are ok vs 1 colossi. | ||
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raga4ka
Bulgaria5679 Posts
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
And yes, without creep do not even try to fight HT's (or colossi) with hydras. In these cases they cannot run away or survive that. | ||
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cerebralz
United States443 Posts
Don't underestimate mass muta vs. P. +1 easily makes the muta ball extremely destructive. As long as you can fight together, lings and roaches can soak up most of the stalker damage while you pick off all his temps, then stalkers, then sentries. It takes a lot for P to switch gears to defend against mass muta if he's gone for templars. I usually don't show my hand until i've got enough gas to make 8-12 mutas. Mutas can endlessly dodge storms while picking apart his army. Just don't lose track of your flock and A-move them into a bunch of stalkers. | ||
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Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
Mutas to snipe HT's probably works best, or Broodlord / ultra heavy army. HT + colossus melt any pre-t3 units (since ultras take so long to get he may very well have both) | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On July 13 2010 22:21 KaiserJohan wrote: Mutas to snipe HT's probably works best, or Broodlord / ultra heavy army. HT + colossus melt any pre-t3 units (since ultras take so long to get he may very well have both) Trying to get both will just make you lose. The tech and gas required is INSANE. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
The counter to high templar... is creep. | ||
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Achaia
United States643 Posts
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MacroNcheesE
United States508 Posts
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hyped
United States135 Posts
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Chex
United States87 Posts
Also consider banelings. If he's going HT's then he has a primarily gateway army and Banelings will wreck them. Another composition that works with banelings would be baneling, infestor, zergling, ultra with some roaches or hydras if you can. My one comment on Ultras is that you need to be careful about heavy Chargelots. They will really hurt your ultras bad (banelings should fix this problem though). | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
I played vs storm with mass hydras and microing storm did very little, especially considering hydras survive with 1 hp if they take full damage now | ||
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TwistedHelix
United States50 Posts
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.Soul
Canada81 Posts
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cr4ckshot
United States291 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
-Fighting on creep, as mentioned several times already. -Fighting in wide open areas. Anywhere units have to clump up to get through is good for storm. -Ultras don't really work as if they are going HT you can automatically expect a healthy dose of zealots as a mineral sink and archons morphed from energy-depleted HT. -Infestors are great but moreso for fungal growth for the zealots. HT are cheaper and can feedback Infestors, who aren't like ghosts which are hard to spot in a clump of units. It can work but not cost effective IMO. -Mutas can also work, but also not very cost effective. Protoss players can lay down storms on your mutas and weaken them a down then just morph into archons, who counter mutas hard. Mutas can move out of storms but due to how acceleration/deceleration works in thsi game storms still hurt mutas quite a bit. -Roaches do tank storms better than hydras but don't really counter HT. Zealots and storms still do well vs roaches. -Burrow is great if you can catch them w/o an observer, but it's not something you can count on every game. -Best bet to "counter" HT is simply trying to dictate where you fight his army (wide open area, preferably on creep), and flanking his HT with speedlings. Speedlings are extremely cost-effective, and are cheap enough to not compromise your army composition. Make him waste his storms on the cheap zerglings and force him to morph into archons or lose his HT. | ||
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Taniard
United States114 Posts
On July 13 2010 14:23 Plexa wrote: I don't think a "counter" exists. And that's the way it should be... It comes down to control and whatnot. Storms are not as lethal as they used to be, so you shouldn't have a hard time just pulling back and letting his zealots eat the brunt of the storm. Really though, should post a replay yeah pretty much. There is no set "counter" and all of the suggestions are just ideas to better help your control. One thing though, just make sure not to leave hydras out off of creep against templar, or they will get owned cuz they are so slow. | ||
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CryMore
United States497 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
So if u can't dodge it, just burrow :d | ||
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dignity
Canada908 Posts
As bad as people say ultralisks are, they are quite cost effective in terms of the damage they deal when massed and used with other units as support. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On July 14 2010 02:11 Noocta wrote: Just for the fact, burrowed roaches with tunneling claw upgrade outregen a storm. So if u can't dodge it, just burrow :d Are you sure? I thought roaches w/ the upgrade regen 10HP/sec? Note that storm actually ticks every .5 seconds, which makes it 20DPS/sec. And on a practical level while I think the upgrade would be useful for recovering damaged roaches from storm, is burrowing your roaches in the middle of battle where his whole army is DPS'ing you really a good idea? I've never had it done vs me, personally. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
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eNyoron
United States170 Posts
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
An even better way is after fungal growthing launching a few ITs, but that would require more than one infestor for sure. | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On July 14 2010 05:30 happyness wrote: I could be wrong, but I thought if you burrow you take no damage from storm. This is incorrect. I have stormed hydras who were burrowed plenty of times and know it works because when they die they show their death animation above ground (and leave a corpse, etc. etc.). | ||
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