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On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote:
Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong.
This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build.
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Man I apologize, I just assumed the build was going to be for blocking off then lift to natural expansion! I am all for trying new builds, but this one might be too exotic to be viable, but I'm sure you can always make it work. I think that if you were to use this BO, your realistic options do not include timing pushes simply because your opponent has a 400 mineral advantage over you. The idea with a CC being built is that it puts you 400 behind, but you use the command center when it is built to rapidly catch up. In this build, you don't do it, so I don't think it would achieve much at this point in time.
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On July 06 2010 13:10 tehemperorer wrote:
Man I apologize, I just assumed the build was going to be for blocking off then lift to natural expansion! I am all for trying new builds, but this one might be too exotic to be viable, but I'm sure you can always make it work. I think that if you were to use this BO, your realistic options do not include timing pushes simply because your opponent has a 400 mineral advantage over you. The idea with a CC being built is that it puts you 400 behind, but you use the command center when it is built to rapidly catch up. In this build, you don't do it, so I don't think it would achieve much at this point in time.
You are neglecting a critical component of why this build works: The mule and extra SCV production. The extra mules rapidly catch you back up and then give you the advantage. This advantage expires only when your mineral patches expire, thus if you do not expand by the 10:00 mark than this build fails. The golden window of this build is 8:00 to 10:00 RT where you HAVE to push out and grab your natural although you can push out earlier if your opponent tries to expand.
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If you're scared of reapers in this build, wouldn't blink stalkers or colosi hurt too? Void rays as well as mutalisks can all avoid frontal attacks.
Another issue I might have with this build is a macro zerg. If you are contained in you're base with little to no map control, he would probably take the opportunity to expand quickly. Sure you'll be able to get extra mules and scvs faster, but you can saturate your one base way before the 8 min mark and you're increased scv production will go to waste if you don't expand quickly. If he's good enough and macro-oriented, he would get a huge lead.
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On July 06 2010 13:25 Calamity wrote:
If you're scared of reapers in this build, wouldn't blink stalkers or colosi hurt too? Void rays as well as mutalisks can all avoid frontal attacks.
Another issue I might have with this build is a macro zerg. If you are contained in you're base with little to no map control, he would probably take the opportunity to expand quickly. Sure you'll be able to get extra mules and scvs faster, but you can saturate your one base way before the 8 min mark and you're increased scv production will go to waste if you don't expand quickly. If he's good enough and macro-oriented, he would get a huge lead.
Blink stalkers and collosus come too late to be a threat in this build. By that time you have already recovered your military disadvantage. Void rays are a threat if you did not adqueately prepare for them.
Against a macro zerg, you need to break out of your base much sooner than the 8 min mark, pretty much as soon as you get some hellions. Then take your natural and play normally with a better econ than standard terran builds.
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You know what, I would say that this build would probably work in a 1v1 game. If it ever becomes standard play, however, it would be easily recognizable and that would lead to its quick demise as a viable strategy. I bet you I can beat your timing push, though! Single base P I think is the strongest thing against that BO you got.
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It's most likely that the standard build followed by an expansion when it is safe is an overall better build than this. But that doesn't make this build useless. As you can see, pros have used similar builds and won.
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I like this idea, seems like it would give you a slightly faster/stronger mid gameish push if you can successful defend till then. I think a siege tank push could be pretty sweet after this, let yah take the nat pretty easy against most things then push into em. For sure gonna give this a try.
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Pretty off topic but TangJuice I love ur signature....i love Seinfeld 
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On July 06 2010 12:57 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote:
Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong. This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build.
Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up
What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build.
against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier
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On July 06 2010 14:45 Kitad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:57 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote:
Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong. This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build. Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build. against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier
Do 4 warpgate pushes break through standard build terran whos walled in? If they don't, I don't see why they would break this build. You are only roughly 1 tank or 1 thor behind the standard build, and a bunker can easily make up that difference.
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I'd say this build is a good opening provided you plan to lift that CC as soon you saturate your main and take your expansion. You aren't 'wasting' 400, just spending it earlier in your build, its good on maps with difficult to hold naturals.
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On July 06 2010 14:55 Sabresandiego wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 14:45 Kitad wrote:On July 06 2010 12:57 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote:
Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong. This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build. Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build. against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier Do 4 warpgate pushes break through standard build terran whos walled in? If they don't, I don't see why they would break this build. You are only roughly 1 tank or 1 thor behind the standard build, and a bunker can easily make up that difference.
You can't just make statements like "4 warp gate push will break X(terran defense)" because its not a static defined thing, however, what I want to point out is that this is a standard build and its not easy to play against it, and you could be 550 minerals behind by the time it happens.
That alone requires you to consider this build into your strategy. I'm not a pro player, and I get troubled over the timings sometimes, but it does seem like its risky considering the above
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On July 06 2010 15:02 Kitad wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 14:55 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 06 2010 14:45 Kitad wrote:On July 06 2010 12:57 Sabresandiego wrote:On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote:
Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong. This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build. Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build. against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier Do 4 warpgate pushes break through standard build terran whos walled in? If they don't, I don't see why they would break this build. You are only roughly 1 tank or 1 thor behind the standard build, and a bunker can easily make up that difference. You can't just make statements like "4 warp gate push will break X(terran defense)" because its not a static defined thing, however, what I want to point out is that this is a standard build and its not easy to play against it, and you could be 550 minerals behind by the time it happens. That alone requires you to consider this build into your strategy. I'm not a pro player, and I get troubled over the timings sometimes, but it does seem like its risky considering the above
I agree, by no means is this build perfect. I have not tested all the timings either. I need to know the timing of the attack. This build is weakest between minutes 4:00-6:00 real time. The nice thing is that a bunker easily makes up for this weakness and by minute 7:00 the tides have turned and this build starts pulling ahead. The strength of this build is not fully realized until you grab your expansion, usually around 8:00-10:00 RT, which is immediately fully saturated and floods you with resources which are hard to spend fast enough.
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Seems interesting. Once the beta comes back, test this and let us know how it works out for you.
Since I'm switching to random, I might even try it myself, I'm always down for new ideas
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I don't know what level the green tea AI is, some say mid platinum, but this build crushes it in every single game without using any type of worker harass which the AI is weak to. Its easy to beat the AI in a straight up macro game with this build. An interesting timing is that siege tanks with siege mode arrive around 5:30-5:45 with this build, whereas with standard build they arrive at 4:30-4:45. This means you have to survive 1 minute without siege mode in TVT. Considering travel time, it can be only 30 seconds. Its not hard to survive 30 seconds before your own siege line is up. Or you can get a fast thor and try to bumrush their early siege tanks.
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Could you perhaps post youtube videos of yourself doing this build against an ai of each race? I tried your build a couple times and while the mineral influx is very high after moving to the expo, the gas intake is still really slow.
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Gas is weak in this build but minerals are strong. You remain 200 gas behind a standard Terran build of 13 refinery, 21 refinery. You can be 300 gas behind a fast gas standard terran who goes 13 refinery, 16 refinery or something. You are also about 1:00 to 1:30 behind in military production, specifically of tech units. This is why I question whether this build is viable in high level ladder, especially terran vs terran where super early siege tanks can be a problem.
To remedy this, I always focus on getting either siege tanks or thors or banshees ASAP with this build and using 3 barracks to pump out marines/marauders as fast as possible to use up my excess minerals. Gas is low so you can only focus on one gas unit, and have to use marines and/or marauders as your primary force. The biggest mistake you can make with this build is spreading out your gas use among several different types of gas units, you need to focus on only 1 gas unit until you have your expansion captured.
In doing several terran vs terran games against the AI, I have noticed that it is critical to get that first tank/thor/banshee out ASAP to stop the first push. After surviving the first push, you auto win if you do a push yourself (against the AI).
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I'm pretty confused... why would you choose thos over the standard 1 rax fast expo build?
Second, there's a pretty good reason also why the 1 rax fast expo build goes into 3-4 rax pumping only marines without getting any refineries ... you're spending all of your minerals for SCVs, depots, bunkers and marines. You can't really afford to spend more resources into teching up, otherwise you won't have a good enough defense for certain timing pushes... (check out the Day[9] daily "qxc comeback" ... qxc wings the fast expo build but attempts to tech up by getting gas, and he gets crippled by a baneling bust).
Thirdly, I wonder if this strat results in mining out of your main too fast? Because you're basically saturating it twice as fast, and muling twice as fast too.
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On July 06 2010 16:27 Happy.fairytail wrote:
I'm pretty confused... why would you choose thos over the standard 1 rax fast expo build?
Second, there's a pretty good reason also why the 1 rax fast expo build goes into 3-4 rax pumping only marines without getting any refineries ... you're spending all of your minerals for SCVs, depots, bunkers and marines. You can't really afford to spend more resources into teching up, otherwise you won't have a good enough defense for certain timing pushes... (check out the Day[9] daily "qxc comeback" ... qxc wings the fast expo build but attempts to tech up by getting gas, and he gets crippled by a baneling bust).
Thirdly, I wonder if this strat results in mining out of your main too fast? Because you're basically saturating it twice as fast, and muling twice as fast too.
The main reason this build doesn't fast expo and techs instead is because it is much harder to hold the expo and main then just your main. You basically over-saturate your main with SCVs, and expand as soon as you have enough forces to defend it. This strategy definitely mines out your main fast, which means getting that expo up before the 10:00 real time mark is critical.
You are still able to tech fast enough with this build to prevent being overrun by quick teching opponents, unlike a fast expansion build. Whether this build is viable in high level play I do not know as I have not been able to test it live. It does work well against the AI though.
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EPT
