This is an opening which I have been using to great success against the AI (green tea). This build focuses on an early double orbital command without expanding early (unless ofcourse a safe opportunity presents itself). Instead, the early second orbital command is used to pump SCV's and mules and can also fortify your wall in (although I prefer a bunker). I include YABOT data which highlights the advantages and flaws of this build. Although I do not consider this build to be better than the standard Terran build, and do not yet know if it is viable in high level ladder play, it is an interesting and surprisingly good alternative build once you have mastered it. It has the potential to leave you stronger economically than the standard terran build in the midgame provided that you have prepared the proper counters to your opponents strategy.
10 depot 12.5 rax (meaning queue 1 additional scv at 12 before building rax) 16 marine, build marines nonstop 17 (stop scv production at 16 and build marines nonstop) command center 2 18 orbital command 1 19 depot ----> optional bunker when depot finished (my preference) 19 double refinery -resume scv production -orbital command 2 when cc2 is finished -factory with first 100 gas -second rax -tech lab with next 25 gas after 6 marines have been built
At this point make SCV's nonstop and get a factory with your first 100 gas so you can get fast tanks or thors to prevent being contained or sieged. Follow up with whatever strategy you want and enjoy the advantage of having two orbital commands very early in the game which will be in sync with each other energy wise allowing 2 mule drops at a time. Keep in mind that this build puts you ahead in minerals around the 7:00 real time mark but behind by 200 gas until you expand, so you will want to focus on your primary unit being mineral based such as marines/marauders/ or hellions and choose a support unit to use up gas such as tanks/thors/medivacs/ or ghosts.
Why this Build Works: -Mules quickly recover the cost of the command center -Increased SCV production allows faster saturation of minerals and expansion -Your frontal defense is roughly the same strength as the standard terran build
Why this Build Fails: -If you are successfully contained and prevented from taking your natural by 10:00 RT you lose. -If you do not scout properly and do not prepare for tech attacks (cloak, air) you can lose -If your opponent expands early and you do not lift off and do the same you can fall behind
Here is the YABOT analysis of this build. Pay close attention to the numbers.
Standard Terran Build at 7:00 real time (no expansion)
Avg SCV count: 27 Avg Mineral: 6000 Avg Gas: 1400
Double CC Build at 7:00 real time (no expansion)
Avg SCV count: 35 Avg Mineral: 7000 Avg Gas:1200
So we can see that this build has you up 1000 minerals and 8 SCV's and down 200 gas at the 7 minute mark. You are also behind in tech and army size by 1:00 to 1:30 real time production. This disadvantage puts you on the defensive until you can fully realize the advantage gained by the early CC.
Further analysis shows that even though you are up 1000 minerals at the 7:00 RT mark, 550-150 (Orbital Command - Supply Value) + 400 (cost of 8 SCV's) = 800 is invested into your command center and scv's. This means that militarily at the 7:00 RT mark you are only up 200 minerals, but are down 200 gas and 1:00 RT of production time. This info indicates that militarily you are still behind at the 7:00RT mark compared to a standard build.
You finally match the standard build militarily at about 8:00RT which is exactly the timing when you push out and grab your natural expansion as well as attack your enemy. If you can break a contain and grab your natural by 10:00RT (earlier if your opponent expanded) you have a huge advantage in that your expansion is already built and you just have to lift off and land, and it immediately starts off at full bore and you instantly gain a HUGE economic boom whereas the standard build has to not only build the expansion but saturate it which takes time. The only downside to the immediate econ boom of this double CC build is that you won't have enough unit producing structures to take advantage of this super economic boom right away.
Is it worth it? Hard to say considering you are militarily behind for an entire 8:00 RT of the game and can lose to a good player in that time frame, or be contained. This build murders the CPU but a real player will try to take advantage of his military during the first 8:00 of the game. The good news is that Terrans are designed to have strong defense and with adequete scouting you can counter any enemy strategy considering you are only 1:00 to 1:30 behind in tech/production time. The worst thing that can happen to you if you prepare for frontal attacks, cloaks, and air attacks is that you get contained and harassed thus dwindling any midgame econ advantage. If you are prevented from taking your natural by 10:00RT then your midgame econ advantage is lost, so a successfull contain is your worst enemy when using this build. Is the midgame economic boost worth it? Can skilled players harass attempts and contains be overcome in order to realize your economic advantage once you take your natural? Would love to hear some opinions.
vs Reaper Rush: Try to survive, keep pumping marines and scv's, get a marauder if you can.
vs Marine Rush: Build a bunker and have scv's repair it.
vs Super Early Tank Push: Get tanks yourself asap or a thor and marauders. You are 1:00min behind tech and army production so you have to survive up to a minute of being sieged. At this point you may be contained but can counter the contain with a thor drop or a contain bust at the 8:00-10:00 min mark.
vs Early Cloaked Banshee: Get eng bay and turrets. Punish him at 8:00-10:00 min mark
Terran Vs Zerg:
Key Units: Any Weak: None
Fast Lings: Fight with SCV's and/or wall off
Fast Expand: Harass with reapers/hellions, push at 8:00-10:00 RT
Terran vs Protoss:
Key Units: Any Weak: None
Vs Early All In: Have a bunker, repair it, punish at 8:00- 10:00 RT
TLDR: Fast double CC and wall off with no expansion Timing Push at 8:00 real time where you break any contain, attack, and take your natural Profit from instantly huge economy once natural is secured
TLO using a similar build vs NONY: Note that his expansion is not up until 7:00 RT, which is similar to the timing of this build. I believe this build is a bit more optimized than what he used and more versatile since you get gas earlier, thus you can use it in any matchup.
Have you ever tried going 15 CC then 16 rax? I find it to be similar to what you just posted but better economically. The CC finishes increasing your supply so you don't have to make a second depot, but you end up cutting SCVs by like ~4-5 seconds, but it's not a huge deal because during that time the mineral accumulation lets you hit OC's nearly immediately when the Rax's finish. And because you wall off, you're safe vs any early zealots, the first Marauder will come out around the same time a chronoed stalker hits your doorstep, and if they go early pool as Zerg you do have to pull SCVs but it's not too huge.
I like doing the fast second command at the ramp (which is done in this BO too I presume) to stop baneling busts too, you can just build your second and third depot reinforcing the first and you don't have to worry about it.
I don't do 15 CC then 16 rax because it is vulnerable to early rush, especially reapers. This build gets the first rax at almost the standard time 12.5 (meaning 1 additional scv queued before rax) and builds constant marines, and so is more protected against fast rushes. I think 15 CC would instantly die to a reaper rush, whereas this build would fare almost as well as a standard 12 rax build vs a reaper rush.
Sounds really fun I would want to complete my wall in before the command goes up, to prevent any early pressure. Do you wall with the CC? Another advantage is being able to lift and take your natural very easily.
What if you walled with 2 rax/supply, then lifted them and walled off your natural (once you secure your natural)?
Alright, hate to be the bucket of cold water, but this opening straight up loses to any pressure. As a super macro oriented diamond Terran, the quickest CC you can get out safely seems to be after:
10 Depot, 12 Rax, 15 Orbital, and then at 20 you can throw it down at your Nat because you will have 4 marines and can throw up a bunker to prevent the simple "a-move" loss that will happen if you try it without a minimum of a bunkerful of marines.
The issue isn't how fast you can get it, but how fast can you defend it and your main. 16 is wayyyyy too early. This will lose to a quick pool, any kind of quick baneling, quick Stalkers, or just a quick Marauder push.
EDIT: That is to, say, at 20 you will have 3 marines with 1 on the way, can throw down your CC and build a bunker with your next 100 minerals.
On July 06 2010 11:52 Sleight wrote: Alright, hate to be the bucket of cold water, but this opening straight up loses to any pressure. As a super macro oriented diamond Terran, the quickest CC you can get out safely seems to be after:
10 Depot, 12 Rax, 15 Orbital, and then at 20 you can throw it down at your Nat because you will have 4 marines and can throw up a bunker to prevent the simple "a-move" loss that will happen if you try it without a minimum of a bunkerful of marines.
The issue isn't how fast you can get it, but how fast can you defend it and your main. 16 is wayyyyy too early. This will lose to a quick pool, any kind of quick baneling, quick Stalkers, or just a quick Marauder push.
EDIT: That is to, say, at 20 you will have 3 marines with 1 on the way, can throw down your CC and build a bunker with your next 100 minerals.
Considering this build does not expand until the 8:00 RT mark, you have the defensive advantage of your primary choke point. Considering you get your rax at 12.5, you have roughly the same amount of marines as all standard terran builds which get rax at 12. Your military is 1:00 behind in terms of factory/starport units compared to a terran who is walled off and using the standard build order into a 1/1/1. This military disadvantage can be reversed with a bunker. Thus, any early pressure that this build will lose to, so will the standard build with 1/1/1. Is that not true?
You can also get a bunker vs early pressure and that will end almost any frontal attack if you have scv repairers. Vs a zerg if you fear a baneling bust you can actually use your second CC as part of your wall, along with your rax, making a nearly baneling bust proof wall.
Basically an early terran expand can only effectively happen when the choice to early expand is based on scouting; rather than a pre-game/pre-intel choice.
It won't go from anchor to asset until 9-10 minutes in; which isn't safe to have such a tender army when considering standard builds. You are especially vulnerable to sen muta variants and early stalker.
Early T expansion, however, is entirely valid if you are doing it in response to another player going macro oriented openings and you opt not to early pressure. Protoss throws down a forge to secure expo = ticket to early CC. ect.
It's not a matter of viability so much as it is situational appropriate. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. Don't make it a standard opening but keep it in your deck of cards as a solid response.
On July 06 2010 12:10 Noggin wrote: Basically an early terran expand can only effectively happen when the choice to early expand is based on scouting; rather than a pre-game/pre-intel choice.
It won't go from anchor to asset until 9-10 minutes in; which isn't safe to have such a tender army when considering standard builds. You are especially vulnerable to sen muta variants and early stalker.
Early T expansion, however, is entirely valid if you are doing it in response to another player going macro oriented openings and you opt not to early pressure. Protoss throws down a forge to secure expo = ticket to early CC. ect.
It's not a matter of viability so much as it is situational appropriate. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. Don't make it a standard opening but keep it in your deck of cards as a solid response.
This is not an early expand build. You are not expanding at all with your second CC until your timing push at around 8:00-10:00 Real Time. Thus, you have all the advantages of only having to defend your main base and being walled off at your choke.
On July 06 2010 11:10 Sabresandiego wrote: I don't do 15 CC then 16 rax because it is vulnerable to early rush, especially reapers. This build gets the first rax at almost the standard time 12.5 (meaning 1 additional scv queued before rax) and builds constant marines, and so is more protected against fast rushes. I think 15 CC would instantly die to a reaper rush, whereas this build would fare almost as well as a standard 12 rax build vs a reaper rush.
You're right. I don't play mirrors I completely forgot about TvT, but I've done it in TvZ and TvP, mind you custom games only. I only played P and Z on the ladder during the beta.
On July 06 2010 12:14 tehemperorer wrote: Won't work on me, I 8 Pylon and 8 Gate, 12 Zeal and 16 zeal, both cb'ed
Maybe won't work on you, but who else goes 8 gate? As said above, I didn't play T on the ladder, but it doesn't sound very standard to me. It sounds to me like someone advocating 12 hatch in SC1 and you saying "I 9/9 2gate at my natural everygame."
Anyways, he'd still have walled off by the time your zealot reaches his base, and then the marine would hold it off as Supply Depots repair. Wouldn't you be behind in this case..?
On July 06 2010 12:14 tehemperorer wrote: Won't work on me, I 8 Pylon and 8 Gate, 12 Zeal and 16 zeal, both cb'ed
This build is actually stronger than a standard terran build vs early rush, since I can wall off with the CC and Rax which are stronger than supply depots. The rax comes only a few seconds behind the standard 12 rax. So unless your build rapes the standard 12 rax build, it will not rape this one.
Excellent work man, I can see this kind of early economic ideas being revoltutionary to the current 1 base popular play. Definately trying this phase 2!
It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
There is no expansion. What are you talking about? Im walled off in my base behind a barracks and command center and there are marines behind that wall shooting your zealots.
Everyone seems to think this is a fast expansion build. I am underlining and caps that this is not a fast expansion build, its a double CC turtle until 8:00 min timing push build. It takes advantage of mules and double SCV production to allow for a timing push at 8:00 RT where you capture your natural into a fully saturated expansion.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
The OP said like 5+ times he doesn't expand with it... read the thread... you can use it to build SCVs to your main and utilize the extra mules.
EDIT: Btw, to the OP, the reason I like the 15 CC 16 Rax build is because after 16 rax you can go 17 Refinery/18 Refinery. You become supply blocked from SCVs for maybe 3-4 seconds, then the rax finishes and you start your first OC. The second CC will finish a few seconds later, enabling you start start your second OC. The double refinery allows quick transition into mech style play which is what I like vs Z. And as you know, you have a stronger wall vs Baneling busts, it holds off any early rush, etc. If you're denied from scouting, the second OC finishing around the same time as your first allows you to have an *earlier* scan than most builds (as most builds use their second scan to scout), meaning you can see if Z decided to baneling bust as well.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
The OP said like 5+ times he doesn't expand with it... read the thread... you can use it to build SCVs to your main and utilize the extra mules.
EDIT: Btw, to the OP, the reason I like the 15 CC 16 Rax build is because after 16 rax you can go 17 Refinery/18 Refinery. You become supply blocked from SCVs for maybe 3-4 seconds, then the rax finishes and you start your first OC. The second CC will finish a few seconds later, enabling you start start your second OC. The double refinery allows quick transition into mech style play which is what I like vs Z. And as you know, you have a stronger wall vs Baneling busts, it holds off any early rush, etc. If you're denied from scouting, the second OC finishing around the same time as your first allows you to have an *earlier* scan than most builds (as most builds use their second scan to scout), meaning you can see if Z decided to baneling bust as well.
I will try your build, I'm just worried about reapers. Try my build, because it is as safe vs early rushes as all standard 12 rax builds. You get double refinery at 19 with my build, which puts you only 200 gas behind most standard Terran builds. You can also wall of with my build exactly the same as you could with a 15cc 16 rax.
You are investing FOUR HUNDRED minerals at the... what 3 minute mark? To be used 5 minutes later? You lose because the other guy just uses his 4 minerals for something relevant. Sure you get some of them back in terms of Muling (kind of) but he could have just kept up worker production, tech'd faster, expanded, secured his expo all by the time you get to push.
The way you are looking at "earning it back" doesn't make sense because you aren't getting NEW minerals. The minerals you've gotten are minerals you already would have gotten! In fact, but just getting a 15 Orbital, all the minerals you think you are hauling in more than him, may in fact not exist. Show some statistics where this pulls in more minerals than a regular Terran going 15 Orbital, 1 Fac into expo, and I think the discussion can have some real investment. The YABOT data doesn't mean anything. Can this survive a Baneling bust? Does it have the resources to stop a quick marauder push? Is it strong enough to keep up with 4 gate all in? Ultimately it ends the same, but WHEN those resources come in is HUGE.
This sounds far-fetched to suppose building a CC and NOT planting it at an expo somehow gets you minerals (??)
EDIT:
At the 8 minute mark, TvT, you would be getting Tank push'd. In PvT, you would be getting killed because he expo's quickly after seeing your CC and masses out of Warp Gates, in TvZ, he has 3-4 expos because you haven't put any pressure on him.
On July 06 2010 12:37 Sleight wrote: Okay. So here's the thing.
You are investing FOUR HUNDRED minerals at the... what 3 minute mark? To be used 5 minutes later? You lose because the other guy just uses his 4 minerals for something relevant. Sure you get some of them back in terms of Muling (kind of) but he could have just kept up worker production, tech'd faster, expanded, secured his expo all by the time you get to push.
The way you are looking at "earning it back" doesn't make sense because you aren't getting NEW minerals. The minerals you've gotten are minerals you already would have gotten! In fact, but just getting a 15 Orbital, all the minerals you think you are hauling in more than him, may in fact not exist. Show some statistics where this pulls in more minerals than a regular Terran going 15 Orbital, 1 Fac into expo, and I think the discussion can have some real investment. The YABOT data doesn't mean anything. Can this survive a Baneling bust? Does it have the resources to stop a quick marauder push? Is it strong enough to keep up with 4 gate all in? Ultimately it ends the same, but WHEN those resources come in is HUGE.
This sounds far-fetched to suppose building a CC and NOT planting it at an expo somehow gets you minerals (??)
EDIT:
At the 8 minute mark, TvT, you would be getting Tank push'd. In PvT, you would be getting killed because he expo's quickly after seeing your CC and masses out of Warp Gates, in TvZ, he has 3-4 expos because you haven't put any pressure on him.
In PvT, he'd have most likely already invested in a core or something. Assuming he wanted to expand, he'd have to wait for 400 minerals to accumulate. Then the Terran could easily expand himself as he'd have to cut minerals.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
The OP said like 5+ times he doesn't expand with it... read the thread... you can use it to build SCVs to your main and utilize the extra mules.
EDIT: Btw, to the OP, the reason I like the 15 CC 16 Rax build is because after 16 rax you can go 17 Refinery/18 Refinery. You become supply blocked from SCVs for maybe 3-4 seconds, then the rax finishes and you start your first OC. The second CC will finish a few seconds later, enabling you start start your second OC. The double refinery allows quick transition into mech style play which is what I like vs Z. And as you know, you have a stronger wall vs Baneling busts, it holds off any early rush, etc. If you're denied from scouting, the second OC finishing around the same time as your first allows you to have an *earlier* scan than most builds (as most builds use their second scan to scout), meaning you can see if Z decided to baneling bust as well.
I will try your build, I'm just worried about reapers. Try my build, because it is as safe vs early rushes as all standard 12 rax builds. You get double refinery at 19 with my build, which puts you only 200 gas behind most standard Terran builds. You can also wall of with my build exactly the same as you could with a 15cc 16 rax.
On July 06 2010 12:37 Sleight wrote: Okay. So here's the thing.
You are investing FOUR HUNDRED minerals at the... what 3 minute mark? To be used 5 minutes later? You lose because the other guy just uses his 4 minerals for something relevant. Sure you get some of them back in terms of Muling (kind of) but he could have just kept up worker production, tech'd faster, expanded, secured his expo all by the time you get to push.
The way you are looking at "earning it back" doesn't make sense because you aren't getting NEW minerals. The minerals you've gotten are minerals you already would have gotten! In fact, but just getting a 15 Orbital, all the minerals you think you are hauling in more than him, may in fact not exist. Show some statistics where this pulls in more minerals than a regular Terran going 15 Orbital, 1 Fac into expo, and I think the discussion can have some real investment. The YABOT data doesn't mean anything. Can this survive a Baneling bust? Does it have the resources to stop a quick marauder push? Is it strong enough to keep up with 4 gate all in? Ultimately it ends the same, but WHEN those resources come in is HUGE.
This sounds far-fetched to suppose building a CC and NOT planting it at an expo somehow gets you minerals (??)
EDIT:
At the 8 minute mark, TvT, you would be getting Tank push'd. In PvT, you would be getting killed because he expo's quickly after seeing your CC and masses out of Warp Gates, in TvZ, he has 3-4 expos because you haven't put any pressure on him.
I am not going to disagree with you entirely since you may very well be right. However math disagrees with you as well as my trials against the AI. If he expands, he is ALSO 400 minerals in the tank so we are even, except I built my CC first so I am ahead. This means I can pushout much sooner than the 8:00 mark and take my expansion as well as break any contain.
Your argument about minerals is only true once my mineral fields start to expire, until then any minerals I have greater than my opponent are valid minerals. That is why I said this build fails if you do not expand by 10:00.
Finally, about your details this build survives all frontal attacks as well as any standard build. The biggest weakness of the build is being 1:00 to 1:30 behind in tech units behind your opponent. This is not an autoloss however, and your own tanks/thors should arrive in time to save your main and allow you to break a contain.
Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
EPT
I would want to complete my wall in before the command goes up, to prevent any early pressure. Do you wall with the CC? Another advantage is being able to lift and take your natural very easily.
