This is an opening which I have been using to great success against the AI (green tea). This build focuses on an early double orbital command without expanding early (unless ofcourse a safe opportunity presents itself). Instead, the early second orbital command is used to pump SCV's and mules and can also fortify your wall in (although I prefer a bunker). I include YABOT data which highlights the advantages and flaws of this build. Although I do not consider this build to be better than the standard Terran build, and do not yet know if it is viable in high level ladder play, it is an interesting and surprisingly good alternative build once you have mastered it. It has the potential to leave you stronger economically than the standard terran build in the midgame provided that you have prepared the proper counters to your opponents strategy.
10 depot 12.5 rax (meaning queue 1 additional scv at 12 before building rax) 16 marine, build marines nonstop 17 (stop scv production at 16 and build marines nonstop) command center 2 18 orbital command 1 19 depot ----> optional bunker when depot finished (my preference) 19 double refinery -resume scv production -orbital command 2 when cc2 is finished -factory with first 100 gas -second rax -tech lab with next 25 gas after 6 marines have been built
At this point make SCV's nonstop and get a factory with your first 100 gas so you can get fast tanks or thors to prevent being contained or sieged. Follow up with whatever strategy you want and enjoy the advantage of having two orbital commands very early in the game which will be in sync with each other energy wise allowing 2 mule drops at a time. Keep in mind that this build puts you ahead in minerals around the 7:00 real time mark but behind by 200 gas until you expand, so you will want to focus on your primary unit being mineral based such as marines/marauders/ or hellions and choose a support unit to use up gas such as tanks/thors/medivacs/ or ghosts.
Why this Build Works: -Mules quickly recover the cost of the command center -Increased SCV production allows faster saturation of minerals and expansion -Your frontal defense is roughly the same strength as the standard terran build
Why this Build Fails: -If you are successfully contained and prevented from taking your natural by 10:00 RT you lose. -If you do not scout properly and do not prepare for tech attacks (cloak, air) you can lose -If your opponent expands early and you do not lift off and do the same you can fall behind
Here is the YABOT analysis of this build. Pay close attention to the numbers.
Standard Terran Build at 7:00 real time (no expansion)
Avg SCV count: 27 Avg Mineral: 6000 Avg Gas: 1400
Double CC Build at 7:00 real time (no expansion)
Avg SCV count: 35 Avg Mineral: 7000 Avg Gas:1200
So we can see that this build has you up 1000 minerals and 8 SCV's and down 200 gas at the 7 minute mark. You are also behind in tech and army size by 1:00 to 1:30 real time production. This disadvantage puts you on the defensive until you can fully realize the advantage gained by the early CC.
Further analysis shows that even though you are up 1000 minerals at the 7:00 RT mark, 550-150 (Orbital Command - Supply Value) + 400 (cost of 8 SCV's) = 800 is invested into your command center and scv's. This means that militarily at the 7:00 RT mark you are only up 200 minerals, but are down 200 gas and 1:00 RT of production time. This info indicates that militarily you are still behind at the 7:00RT mark compared to a standard build.
You finally match the standard build militarily at about 8:00RT which is exactly the timing when you push out and grab your natural expansion as well as attack your enemy. If you can break a contain and grab your natural by 10:00RT (earlier if your opponent expanded) you have a huge advantage in that your expansion is already built and you just have to lift off and land, and it immediately starts off at full bore and you instantly gain a HUGE economic boom whereas the standard build has to not only build the expansion but saturate it which takes time. The only downside to the immediate econ boom of this double CC build is that you won't have enough unit producing structures to take advantage of this super economic boom right away.
Is it worth it? Hard to say considering you are militarily behind for an entire 8:00 RT of the game and can lose to a good player in that time frame, or be contained. This build murders the CPU but a real player will try to take advantage of his military during the first 8:00 of the game. The good news is that Terrans are designed to have strong defense and with adequete scouting you can counter any enemy strategy considering you are only 1:00 to 1:30 behind in tech/production time. The worst thing that can happen to you if you prepare for frontal attacks, cloaks, and air attacks is that you get contained and harassed thus dwindling any midgame econ advantage. If you are prevented from taking your natural by 10:00RT then your midgame econ advantage is lost, so a successfull contain is your worst enemy when using this build. Is the midgame economic boost worth it? Can skilled players harass attempts and contains be overcome in order to realize your economic advantage once you take your natural? Would love to hear some opinions.
vs Reaper Rush: Try to survive, keep pumping marines and scv's, get a marauder if you can.
vs Marine Rush: Build a bunker and have scv's repair it.
vs Super Early Tank Push: Get tanks yourself asap or a thor and marauders. You are 1:00min behind tech and army production so you have to survive up to a minute of being sieged. At this point you may be contained but can counter the contain with a thor drop or a contain bust at the 8:00-10:00 min mark.
vs Early Cloaked Banshee: Get eng bay and turrets. Punish him at 8:00-10:00 min mark
Terran Vs Zerg:
Key Units: Any Weak: None
Fast Lings: Fight with SCV's and/or wall off
Fast Expand: Harass with reapers/hellions, push at 8:00-10:00 RT
Terran vs Protoss:
Key Units: Any Weak: None
Vs Early All In: Have a bunker, repair it, punish at 8:00- 10:00 RT
TLDR: Fast double CC and wall off with no expansion Timing Push at 8:00 real time where you break any contain, attack, and take your natural Profit from instantly huge economy once natural is secured
TLO using a similar build vs NONY: Note that his expansion is not up until 7:00 RT, which is similar to the timing of this build. I believe this build is a bit more optimized than what he used and more versatile since you get gas earlier, thus you can use it in any matchup.
Have you ever tried going 15 CC then 16 rax? I find it to be similar to what you just posted but better economically. The CC finishes increasing your supply so you don't have to make a second depot, but you end up cutting SCVs by like ~4-5 seconds, but it's not a huge deal because during that time the mineral accumulation lets you hit OC's nearly immediately when the Rax's finish. And because you wall off, you're safe vs any early zealots, the first Marauder will come out around the same time a chronoed stalker hits your doorstep, and if they go early pool as Zerg you do have to pull SCVs but it's not too huge.
I like doing the fast second command at the ramp (which is done in this BO too I presume) to stop baneling busts too, you can just build your second and third depot reinforcing the first and you don't have to worry about it.
I don't do 15 CC then 16 rax because it is vulnerable to early rush, especially reapers. This build gets the first rax at almost the standard time 12.5 (meaning 1 additional scv queued before rax) and builds constant marines, and so is more protected against fast rushes. I think 15 CC would instantly die to a reaper rush, whereas this build would fare almost as well as a standard 12 rax build vs a reaper rush.
Sounds really fun I would want to complete my wall in before the command goes up, to prevent any early pressure. Do you wall with the CC? Another advantage is being able to lift and take your natural very easily.
What if you walled with 2 rax/supply, then lifted them and walled off your natural (once you secure your natural)?
Alright, hate to be the bucket of cold water, but this opening straight up loses to any pressure. As a super macro oriented diamond Terran, the quickest CC you can get out safely seems to be after:
10 Depot, 12 Rax, 15 Orbital, and then at 20 you can throw it down at your Nat because you will have 4 marines and can throw up a bunker to prevent the simple "a-move" loss that will happen if you try it without a minimum of a bunkerful of marines.
The issue isn't how fast you can get it, but how fast can you defend it and your main. 16 is wayyyyy too early. This will lose to a quick pool, any kind of quick baneling, quick Stalkers, or just a quick Marauder push.
EDIT: That is to, say, at 20 you will have 3 marines with 1 on the way, can throw down your CC and build a bunker with your next 100 minerals.
On July 06 2010 11:52 Sleight wrote: Alright, hate to be the bucket of cold water, but this opening straight up loses to any pressure. As a super macro oriented diamond Terran, the quickest CC you can get out safely seems to be after:
10 Depot, 12 Rax, 15 Orbital, and then at 20 you can throw it down at your Nat because you will have 4 marines and can throw up a bunker to prevent the simple "a-move" loss that will happen if you try it without a minimum of a bunkerful of marines.
The issue isn't how fast you can get it, but how fast can you defend it and your main. 16 is wayyyyy too early. This will lose to a quick pool, any kind of quick baneling, quick Stalkers, or just a quick Marauder push.
EDIT: That is to, say, at 20 you will have 3 marines with 1 on the way, can throw down your CC and build a bunker with your next 100 minerals.
Considering this build does not expand until the 8:00 RT mark, you have the defensive advantage of your primary choke point. Considering you get your rax at 12.5, you have roughly the same amount of marines as all standard terran builds which get rax at 12. Your military is 1:00 behind in terms of factory/starport units compared to a terran who is walled off and using the standard build order into a 1/1/1. This military disadvantage can be reversed with a bunker. Thus, any early pressure that this build will lose to, so will the standard build with 1/1/1. Is that not true?
You can also get a bunker vs early pressure and that will end almost any frontal attack if you have scv repairers. Vs a zerg if you fear a baneling bust you can actually use your second CC as part of your wall, along with your rax, making a nearly baneling bust proof wall.
Basically an early terran expand can only effectively happen when the choice to early expand is based on scouting; rather than a pre-game/pre-intel choice.
It won't go from anchor to asset until 9-10 minutes in; which isn't safe to have such a tender army when considering standard builds. You are especially vulnerable to sen muta variants and early stalker.
Early T expansion, however, is entirely valid if you are doing it in response to another player going macro oriented openings and you opt not to early pressure. Protoss throws down a forge to secure expo = ticket to early CC. ect.
It's not a matter of viability so much as it is situational appropriate. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. Don't make it a standard opening but keep it in your deck of cards as a solid response.
On July 06 2010 12:10 Noggin wrote: Basically an early terran expand can only effectively happen when the choice to early expand is based on scouting; rather than a pre-game/pre-intel choice.
It won't go from anchor to asset until 9-10 minutes in; which isn't safe to have such a tender army when considering standard builds. You are especially vulnerable to sen muta variants and early stalker.
Early T expansion, however, is entirely valid if you are doing it in response to another player going macro oriented openings and you opt not to early pressure. Protoss throws down a forge to secure expo = ticket to early CC. ect.
It's not a matter of viability so much as it is situational appropriate. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. Don't make it a standard opening but keep it in your deck of cards as a solid response.
This is not an early expand build. You are not expanding at all with your second CC until your timing push at around 8:00-10:00 Real Time. Thus, you have all the advantages of only having to defend your main base and being walled off at your choke.
On July 06 2010 11:10 Sabresandiego wrote: I don't do 15 CC then 16 rax because it is vulnerable to early rush, especially reapers. This build gets the first rax at almost the standard time 12.5 (meaning 1 additional scv queued before rax) and builds constant marines, and so is more protected against fast rushes. I think 15 CC would instantly die to a reaper rush, whereas this build would fare almost as well as a standard 12 rax build vs a reaper rush.
You're right. I don't play mirrors I completely forgot about TvT, but I've done it in TvZ and TvP, mind you custom games only. I only played P and Z on the ladder during the beta.
On July 06 2010 12:14 tehemperorer wrote: Won't work on me, I 8 Pylon and 8 Gate, 12 Zeal and 16 zeal, both cb'ed
Maybe won't work on you, but who else goes 8 gate? As said above, I didn't play T on the ladder, but it doesn't sound very standard to me. It sounds to me like someone advocating 12 hatch in SC1 and you saying "I 9/9 2gate at my natural everygame."
Anyways, he'd still have walled off by the time your zealot reaches his base, and then the marine would hold it off as Supply Depots repair. Wouldn't you be behind in this case..?
On July 06 2010 12:14 tehemperorer wrote: Won't work on me, I 8 Pylon and 8 Gate, 12 Zeal and 16 zeal, both cb'ed
This build is actually stronger than a standard terran build vs early rush, since I can wall off with the CC and Rax which are stronger than supply depots. The rax comes only a few seconds behind the standard 12 rax. So unless your build rapes the standard 12 rax build, it will not rape this one.
Excellent work man, I can see this kind of early economic ideas being revoltutionary to the current 1 base popular play. Definately trying this phase 2!
It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
There is no expansion. What are you talking about? Im walled off in my base behind a barracks and command center and there are marines behind that wall shooting your zealots.
Everyone seems to think this is a fast expansion build. I am underlining and caps that this is not a fast expansion build, its a double CC turtle until 8:00 min timing push build. It takes advantage of mules and double SCV production to allow for a timing push at 8:00 RT where you capture your natural into a fully saturated expansion.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
The OP said like 5+ times he doesn't expand with it... read the thread... you can use it to build SCVs to your main and utilize the extra mules.
EDIT: Btw, to the OP, the reason I like the 15 CC 16 Rax build is because after 16 rax you can go 17 Refinery/18 Refinery. You become supply blocked from SCVs for maybe 3-4 seconds, then the rax finishes and you start your first OC. The second CC will finish a few seconds later, enabling you start start your second OC. The double refinery allows quick transition into mech style play which is what I like vs Z. And as you know, you have a stronger wall vs Baneling busts, it holds off any early rush, etc. If you're denied from scouting, the second OC finishing around the same time as your first allows you to have an *earlier* scan than most builds (as most builds use their second scan to scout), meaning you can see if Z decided to baneling bust as well.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
The OP said like 5+ times he doesn't expand with it... read the thread... you can use it to build SCVs to your main and utilize the extra mules.
EDIT: Btw, to the OP, the reason I like the 15 CC 16 Rax build is because after 16 rax you can go 17 Refinery/18 Refinery. You become supply blocked from SCVs for maybe 3-4 seconds, then the rax finishes and you start your first OC. The second CC will finish a few seconds later, enabling you start start your second OC. The double refinery allows quick transition into mech style play which is what I like vs Z. And as you know, you have a stronger wall vs Baneling busts, it holds off any early rush, etc. If you're denied from scouting, the second OC finishing around the same time as your first allows you to have an *earlier* scan than most builds (as most builds use their second scan to scout), meaning you can see if Z decided to baneling bust as well.
I will try your build, I'm just worried about reapers. Try my build, because it is as safe vs early rushes as all standard 12 rax builds. You get double refinery at 19 with my build, which puts you only 200 gas behind most standard Terran builds. You can also wall of with my build exactly the same as you could with a 15cc 16 rax.
You are investing FOUR HUNDRED minerals at the... what 3 minute mark? To be used 5 minutes later? You lose because the other guy just uses his 4 minerals for something relevant. Sure you get some of them back in terms of Muling (kind of) but he could have just kept up worker production, tech'd faster, expanded, secured his expo all by the time you get to push.
The way you are looking at "earning it back" doesn't make sense because you aren't getting NEW minerals. The minerals you've gotten are minerals you already would have gotten! In fact, but just getting a 15 Orbital, all the minerals you think you are hauling in more than him, may in fact not exist. Show some statistics where this pulls in more minerals than a regular Terran going 15 Orbital, 1 Fac into expo, and I think the discussion can have some real investment. The YABOT data doesn't mean anything. Can this survive a Baneling bust? Does it have the resources to stop a quick marauder push? Is it strong enough to keep up with 4 gate all in? Ultimately it ends the same, but WHEN those resources come in is HUGE.
This sounds far-fetched to suppose building a CC and NOT planting it at an expo somehow gets you minerals (??)
EDIT:
At the 8 minute mark, TvT, you would be getting Tank push'd. In PvT, you would be getting killed because he expo's quickly after seeing your CC and masses out of Warp Gates, in TvZ, he has 3-4 expos because you haven't put any pressure on him.
On July 06 2010 12:37 Sleight wrote: Okay. So here's the thing.
You are investing FOUR HUNDRED minerals at the... what 3 minute mark? To be used 5 minutes later? You lose because the other guy just uses his 4 minerals for something relevant. Sure you get some of them back in terms of Muling (kind of) but he could have just kept up worker production, tech'd faster, expanded, secured his expo all by the time you get to push.
The way you are looking at "earning it back" doesn't make sense because you aren't getting NEW minerals. The minerals you've gotten are minerals you already would have gotten! In fact, but just getting a 15 Orbital, all the minerals you think you are hauling in more than him, may in fact not exist. Show some statistics where this pulls in more minerals than a regular Terran going 15 Orbital, 1 Fac into expo, and I think the discussion can have some real investment. The YABOT data doesn't mean anything. Can this survive a Baneling bust? Does it have the resources to stop a quick marauder push? Is it strong enough to keep up with 4 gate all in? Ultimately it ends the same, but WHEN those resources come in is HUGE.
This sounds far-fetched to suppose building a CC and NOT planting it at an expo somehow gets you minerals (??)
EDIT:
At the 8 minute mark, TvT, you would be getting Tank push'd. In PvT, you would be getting killed because he expo's quickly after seeing your CC and masses out of Warp Gates, in TvZ, he has 3-4 expos because you haven't put any pressure on him.
In PvT, he'd have most likely already invested in a core or something. Assuming he wanted to expand, he'd have to wait for 400 minerals to accumulate. Then the Terran could easily expand himself as he'd have to cut minerals.
On July 06 2010 12:18 tehemperorer wrote: It does on Steppes, but if the map isn't Steppes I usually send a delaying probe anyway. Depends on micro though, it would be awesome if it worked, though I don't see how you can use the Command Center even if you built it. Now you gotta go clear 2 zealots out of an expansion.
The OP said like 5+ times he doesn't expand with it... read the thread... you can use it to build SCVs to your main and utilize the extra mules.
EDIT: Btw, to the OP, the reason I like the 15 CC 16 Rax build is because after 16 rax you can go 17 Refinery/18 Refinery. You become supply blocked from SCVs for maybe 3-4 seconds, then the rax finishes and you start your first OC. The second CC will finish a few seconds later, enabling you start start your second OC. The double refinery allows quick transition into mech style play which is what I like vs Z. And as you know, you have a stronger wall vs Baneling busts, it holds off any early rush, etc. If you're denied from scouting, the second OC finishing around the same time as your first allows you to have an *earlier* scan than most builds (as most builds use their second scan to scout), meaning you can see if Z decided to baneling bust as well.
I will try your build, I'm just worried about reapers. Try my build, because it is as safe vs early rushes as all standard 12 rax builds. You get double refinery at 19 with my build, which puts you only 200 gas behind most standard Terran builds. You can also wall of with my build exactly the same as you could with a 15cc 16 rax.
On July 06 2010 12:37 Sleight wrote: Okay. So here's the thing.
You are investing FOUR HUNDRED minerals at the... what 3 minute mark? To be used 5 minutes later? You lose because the other guy just uses his 4 minerals for something relevant. Sure you get some of them back in terms of Muling (kind of) but he could have just kept up worker production, tech'd faster, expanded, secured his expo all by the time you get to push.
The way you are looking at "earning it back" doesn't make sense because you aren't getting NEW minerals. The minerals you've gotten are minerals you already would have gotten! In fact, but just getting a 15 Orbital, all the minerals you think you are hauling in more than him, may in fact not exist. Show some statistics where this pulls in more minerals than a regular Terran going 15 Orbital, 1 Fac into expo, and I think the discussion can have some real investment. The YABOT data doesn't mean anything. Can this survive a Baneling bust? Does it have the resources to stop a quick marauder push? Is it strong enough to keep up with 4 gate all in? Ultimately it ends the same, but WHEN those resources come in is HUGE.
This sounds far-fetched to suppose building a CC and NOT planting it at an expo somehow gets you minerals (??)
EDIT:
At the 8 minute mark, TvT, you would be getting Tank push'd. In PvT, you would be getting killed because he expo's quickly after seeing your CC and masses out of Warp Gates, in TvZ, he has 3-4 expos because you haven't put any pressure on him.
I am not going to disagree with you entirely since you may very well be right. However math disagrees with you as well as my trials against the AI. If he expands, he is ALSO 400 minerals in the tank so we are even, except I built my CC first so I am ahead. This means I can pushout much sooner than the 8:00 mark and take my expansion as well as break any contain.
Your argument about minerals is only true once my mineral fields start to expire, until then any minerals I have greater than my opponent are valid minerals. That is why I said this build fails if you do not expand by 10:00.
Finally, about your details this build survives all frontal attacks as well as any standard build. The biggest weakness of the build is being 1:00 to 1:30 behind in tech units behind your opponent. This is not an autoloss however, and your own tanks/thors should arrive in time to save your main and allow you to break a contain.
Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote: Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong.
This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build.
Man I apologize, I just assumed the build was going to be for blocking off then lift to natural expansion! I am all for trying new builds, but this one might be too exotic to be viable, but I'm sure you can always make it work. I think that if you were to use this BO, your realistic options do not include timing pushes simply because your opponent has a 400 mineral advantage over you. The idea with a CC being built is that it puts you 400 behind, but you use the command center when it is built to rapidly catch up. In this build, you don't do it, so I don't think it would achieve much at this point in time.
On July 06 2010 13:10 tehemperorer wrote: Man I apologize, I just assumed the build was going to be for blocking off then lift to natural expansion! I am all for trying new builds, but this one might be too exotic to be viable, but I'm sure you can always make it work. I think that if you were to use this BO, your realistic options do not include timing pushes simply because your opponent has a 400 mineral advantage over you. The idea with a CC being built is that it puts you 400 behind, but you use the command center when it is built to rapidly catch up. In this build, you don't do it, so I don't think it would achieve much at this point in time.
You are neglecting a critical component of why this build works: The mule and extra SCV production. The extra mules rapidly catch you back up and then give you the advantage. This advantage expires only when your mineral patches expire, thus if you do not expand by the 10:00 mark than this build fails. The golden window of this build is 8:00 to 10:00 RT where you HAVE to push out and grab your natural although you can push out earlier if your opponent tries to expand.
If you're scared of reapers in this build, wouldn't blink stalkers or colosi hurt too? Void rays as well as mutalisks can all avoid frontal attacks.
Another issue I might have with this build is a macro zerg. If you are contained in you're base with little to no map control, he would probably take the opportunity to expand quickly. Sure you'll be able to get extra mules and scvs faster, but you can saturate your one base way before the 8 min mark and you're increased scv production will go to waste if you don't expand quickly. If he's good enough and macro-oriented, he would get a huge lead.
On July 06 2010 13:25 Calamity wrote: If you're scared of reapers in this build, wouldn't blink stalkers or colosi hurt too? Void rays as well as mutalisks can all avoid frontal attacks.
Another issue I might have with this build is a macro zerg. If you are contained in you're base with little to no map control, he would probably take the opportunity to expand quickly. Sure you'll be able to get extra mules and scvs faster, but you can saturate your one base way before the 8 min mark and you're increased scv production will go to waste if you don't expand quickly. If he's good enough and macro-oriented, he would get a huge lead.
Blink stalkers and collosus come too late to be a threat in this build. By that time you have already recovered your military disadvantage. Void rays are a threat if you did not adqueately prepare for them.
Against a macro zerg, you need to break out of your base much sooner than the 8 min mark, pretty much as soon as you get some hellions. Then take your natural and play normally with a better econ than standard terran builds.
You know what, I would say that this build would probably work in a 1v1 game. If it ever becomes standard play, however, it would be easily recognizable and that would lead to its quick demise as a viable strategy. I bet you I can beat your timing push, though! Single base P I think is the strongest thing against that BO you got.
It's most likely that the standard build followed by an expansion when it is safe is an overall better build than this. But that doesn't make this build useless. As you can see, pros have used similar builds and won.
I like this idea, seems like it would give you a slightly faster/stronger mid gameish push if you can successful defend till then. I think a siege tank push could be pretty sweet after this, let yah take the nat pretty easy against most things then push into em. For sure gonna give this a try.
On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote: Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong.
This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build.
Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up
What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build.
against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier
On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote: Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong.
This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build.
Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up
What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build.
against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier
Do 4 warpgate pushes break through standard build terran whos walled in? If they don't, I don't see why they would break this build. You are only roughly 1 tank or 1 thor behind the standard build, and a bunker can easily make up that difference.
I'd say this build is a good opening provided you plan to lift that CC as soon you saturate your main and take your expansion. You aren't 'wasting' 400, just spending it earlier in your build, its good on maps with difficult to hold naturals.
On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote: Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong.
This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build.
Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up
What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build.
against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier
Do 4 warpgate pushes break through standard build terran whos walled in? If they don't, I don't see why they would break this build. You are only roughly 1 tank or 1 thor behind the standard build, and a bunker can easily make up that difference.
You can't just make statements like "4 warp gate push will break X(terran defense)" because its not a static defined thing, however, what I want to point out is that this is a standard build and its not easy to play against it, and you could be 550 minerals behind by the time it happens.
That alone requires you to consider this build into your strategy. I'm not a pro player, and I get troubled over the timings sometimes, but it does seem like its risky considering the above
On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote: Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
What is the timing of this timing push? I have not seen any timing pushes break the defense of this build. The bunker and strong wall are good enough until your first tank/thors arrive (1:00 slower than standard build). The only timing push that has a chance is one that is early enough before your first tech unit (tank/thor) arrives, thus in that 1 minute window (5:00-6:00 real time window is the weakest time of this build). The bunker and strong wall should hold long enough for the choke to be reinforced. I could be wrong, but terran frontal defense from what I have experienced is quite strong in the early game. A successful terran walloff seems to force midgame, which is where this build is strong.
This builds biggest weakness is being contained. If you remain contained past 10:00 RT you effectively lose with this build.
Try to make a 4 warpgate push yourself and see how you hold up
What Im trying to say is that this (very standard build) will come faster than getting the mineral back, thus, putting you in a disadvantage. Not saying you can't hold it off, since for us to accurately say that we would have to test the timings correctly, but it will certainly be harder than a regular build.
against a fast expand, then yeah, this will do good because its just basically expanding earlier
Do 4 warpgate pushes break through standard build terran whos walled in? If they don't, I don't see why they would break this build. You are only roughly 1 tank or 1 thor behind the standard build, and a bunker can easily make up that difference.
You can't just make statements like "4 warp gate push will break X(terran defense)" because its not a static defined thing, however, what I want to point out is that this is a standard build and its not easy to play against it, and you could be 550 minerals behind by the time it happens.
That alone requires you to consider this build into your strategy. I'm not a pro player, and I get troubled over the timings sometimes, but it does seem like its risky considering the above
I agree, by no means is this build perfect. I have not tested all the timings either. I need to know the timing of the attack. This build is weakest between minutes 4:00-6:00 real time. The nice thing is that a bunker easily makes up for this weakness and by minute 7:00 the tides have turned and this build starts pulling ahead. The strength of this build is not fully realized until you grab your expansion, usually around 8:00-10:00 RT, which is immediately fully saturated and floods you with resources which are hard to spend fast enough.
I don't know what level the green tea AI is, some say mid platinum, but this build crushes it in every single game without using any type of worker harass which the AI is weak to. Its easy to beat the AI in a straight up macro game with this build. An interesting timing is that siege tanks with siege mode arrive around 5:30-5:45 with this build, whereas with standard build they arrive at 4:30-4:45. This means you have to survive 1 minute without siege mode in TVT. Considering travel time, it can be only 30 seconds. Its not hard to survive 30 seconds before your own siege line is up. Or you can get a fast thor and try to bumrush their early siege tanks.
Could you perhaps post youtube videos of yourself doing this build against an ai of each race? I tried your build a couple times and while the mineral influx is very high after moving to the expo, the gas intake is still really slow.
Gas is weak in this build but minerals are strong. You remain 200 gas behind a standard Terran build of 13 refinery, 21 refinery. You can be 300 gas behind a fast gas standard terran who goes 13 refinery, 16 refinery or something. You are also about 1:00 to 1:30 behind in military production, specifically of tech units. This is why I question whether this build is viable in high level ladder, especially terran vs terran where super early siege tanks can be a problem.
To remedy this, I always focus on getting either siege tanks or thors or banshees ASAP with this build and using 3 barracks to pump out marines/marauders as fast as possible to use up my excess minerals. Gas is low so you can only focus on one gas unit, and have to use marines and/or marauders as your primary force. The biggest mistake you can make with this build is spreading out your gas use among several different types of gas units, you need to focus on only 1 gas unit until you have your expansion captured.
In doing several terran vs terran games against the AI, I have noticed that it is critical to get that first tank/thor/banshee out ASAP to stop the first push. After surviving the first push, you auto win if you do a push yourself (against the AI).
I'm pretty confused... why would you choose thos over the standard 1 rax fast expo build?
Second, there's a pretty good reason also why the 1 rax fast expo build goes into 3-4 rax pumping only marines without getting any refineries ... you're spending all of your minerals for SCVs, depots, bunkers and marines. You can't really afford to spend more resources into teching up, otherwise you won't have a good enough defense for certain timing pushes... (check out the Day[9] daily "qxc comeback" ... qxc wings the fast expo build but attempts to tech up by getting gas, and he gets crippled by a baneling bust).
Thirdly, I wonder if this strat results in mining out of your main too fast? Because you're basically saturating it twice as fast, and muling twice as fast too.
On July 06 2010 16:27 Happy.fairytail wrote: I'm pretty confused... why would you choose thos over the standard 1 rax fast expo build?
Second, there's a pretty good reason also why the 1 rax fast expo build goes into 3-4 rax pumping only marines without getting any refineries ... you're spending all of your minerals for SCVs, depots, bunkers and marines. You can't really afford to spend more resources into teching up, otherwise you won't have a good enough defense for certain timing pushes... (check out the Day[9] daily "qxc comeback" ... qxc wings the fast expo build but attempts to tech up by getting gas, and he gets crippled by a baneling bust).
Thirdly, I wonder if this strat results in mining out of your main too fast? Because you're basically saturating it twice as fast, and muling twice as fast too.
The main reason this build doesn't fast expo and techs instead is because it is much harder to hold the expo and main then just your main. You basically over-saturate your main with SCVs, and expand as soon as you have enough forces to defend it. This strategy definitely mines out your main fast, which means getting that expo up before the 10:00 real time mark is critical.
You are still able to tech fast enough with this build to prevent being overrun by quick teching opponents, unlike a fast expansion build. Whether this build is viable in high level play I do not know as I have not been able to test it live. It does work well against the AI though.
First of all, I think it's a lot more helpful to express things in Game-Time not Real-Time, so that's what I'm going to do. When looking at replays, playing the game, looking at charts/graphs, reading BO here on the forum, or testing builds in YABOT, it's always expressed in game time. Did you confuse real time (as in your watch) with "faster" game time?
Reasons your build is not good:
1) 8:00 real time is about 11:15 game time. You said that is the point where your army size will have caught up, but that you'll still be behind in tech. That's a LONG time to be waiting for you stuff to pay for itself. If you opponent scouts you and sees you have two CCs without having taken your expansion, he'll know you're behind and will be able to immediately expand. If that player early expanded already, he can probably go directly to 3-base safely, or at least hard tech safely.
2) Look at the blue line on this graph. Assuming 6 on gas in each of your YABOT times, 29 scvs is not much more mineral income than 21. It'll take a long time to just pay back the cost of those extra scvs before they start making money (about 5 minutes just for the scvs). You already know how long it takes because you tested it and did the math, but it should be something that you can just think about and know that it's wrong to oversaturate your main for that long. I don't think you realize how much 11 game minutes is! Also note how much more efficient it is to have two bases undersaturated than 1 base oversaturated.
3) Go rewatch that TLO vs Nony game you linked and listen to the commentators. TLO did NOT do a similar build to what you're proposing. TLO builds the CC at his ramp and the OC, then waits. This is the standard way to early expand as T, go download any replay pack and see for yourself. The reason he is waiting is because he knows his army size and composition is poor. He's waiting for his barracks to scout Nony's base so he knows what is coming. He sees fast fast Colossi, so taking the island expansion is much safer than his natural. You probably know this, but your way is SOOOOO much more passive. Also, note that the only way TLO defends against the first Colossi push is that 2 vikings come out RIGHT when the thermal lance upgrade finishes and the Protoss push comes. But with your build, you are short on gas, and late on tech, so you'd be dead right there. And this is happening much before 8 minutes of real time, so your army would be much smaller than TLO. If you have instead gone more of a mech build with thors/tanks, the P will just scout you and make immortals and tech to zealot charge, etc. It's an easy transition for him and remember that your tech is slow. And that is all assuming you didn't already die to his timing attack.
4) Trading 200 gas to get 200 minerals is a bad trade. Having an instantly saturated expansion does not make up for the expansion being so late by itself. AND add in being more vulnerable for the first 11 minutes of a game AND slowing down your tech because your gas is late? No thanks.
On July 06 2010 18:03 rkiga wrote: First of all, I think it's a lot more helpful to express things in Game-Time not Real-Time, so that's what I'm going to do. When looking at replays, playing the game, looking at charts/graphs, reading BO here on the forum, or testing builds in YABOT, it's always expressed in game time. Did you confuse real time (as in your watch) with "faster" game time?
Reasons your build is not good:
1) 8:00 real time is about 11:15 game time. You said that is the point where your army size will have caught up, but that you'll still be behind in tech. That's a LONG time to be waiting for you stuff to pay for itself. If you opponent scouts you and sees you have two CCs without having taken your expansion, he'll know you're behind and will be able to immediately expand. If that player early expanded already, he can probably go directly to 3-base safely, or at least hard tech safely.
2) Look at the blue line on this graph. Assuming 6 on gas in each of your YABOT times, 29 scvs is not much more mineral income than 21. It'll take a long time to just pay back the cost of those extra scvs before they start making money (about 5 minutes just for the scvs). You already know how long it takes because you tested it and did the math, but it should be something that you can just think about and know that it's wrong to oversaturate your main for that long. I don't think you realize how much 11 game minutes is! Also note how much more efficient it is to have two bases undersaturated than 1 base oversaturated.
3) Go rewatch that TLO vs Nony game you linked and listen to the commentators. TLO did NOT do a similar build to what you're proposing. TLO builds the CC at his ramp and the OC, then waits. This is the standard way to early expand as T, go download any replay pack and see for yourself. The reason he is waiting is because he knows his army size and composition is poor. He's waiting for his barracks to scout Nony's base so he knows what is coming. He sees fast fast Colossi, so taking the island expansion is much safer than his natural. You probably know this, but your way is SOOOOO much more passive. Also, note that the only way TLO defends against the first Colossi push is that 2 vikings come out RIGHT when the thermal lance upgrade finishes and the Protoss push comes. But with your build, you are short on gas, and late on tech, so you'd be dead right there. And this is happening much before 8 minutes of real time, so your army would be much smaller than TLO. If you have instead gone more of a mech build with thors/tanks, the P will just scout you and make immortals and tech to zealot charge, etc. It's an easy transition for him and remember that your tech is slow. And that is all assuming you didn't already die to his timing attack.
4) Trading 200 gas to get 200 minerals is a bad trade. Having an instantly saturated expansion does not make up for the expansion being so late by itself. AND add in being more vulnerable for the first 11 minutes of a game AND slowing down your tech because your gas is late? No thanks.
Thanks for your reply. You bring up valid concerns initially but you seem to end your post with hostility and complete falacies about this build. I want to address your critique the best that I can. This build is untested in ladder, and may very well be unviable due to something I overlooked. However, from my current tests against the AI and comparisons on YABOT I can completely defend this build specifically from the points you make, including the lies.
1) At 7:00 real time your military is roughly equal to an opponent who has not expanded. At 8:00 real time you are slightly ahead of an opponent who has not expanded. HOWEVER, if your opponent plays exactly as you said and expands in response to your double CC, your military will catch up to the strength of his extremely rapidly considering that he just dumped 400 minerals himself, and surpass it even sooner. His fast expand will not yield a stronger military for several minutes, meaning you can lift off and expand yourself. Thus, you maintain your lead because you had your expansion already built and more scv's because of it.
2)You are completely correct in your analysis but you forgot one huge factor: Mules. The oversaturation of SCV's is primarily in order to be able to quickly fully saturate your expansion when you do expand. The big thing you are overlooking here is mules. Your analysis also neglects SCV's who are building or scouting. Saturation has no effect on mules, and you are able to call in double the mules as you normally would, thus rapidly spiking your mineral income. The Yabot numbers do not lie, at the 7:00 real time mark you have +1000 minerals and -200 gas compared to a standard terran build.
3)What TLO did is very similar to this build, but less effective. The main difference is he neglects gas and tech for much longer than this build and instead goes heavy minerals into mass infantry. His expansion does not even start mining until 6:30 real time and with no SCV saturation whatsoever due to being on an island. My build has you expand at either the 8:00 RT mark, or exactly 1 min after your opponent begins construction on his own expansion (which can be very early). You get gas MUCH faster with my build than TLO's and are also much faster in tech than TLO, and would have those vikings much sooner than he did. This is the part I'm not following you because your critique was intelligent at first but now is just an outright attack with falacies thrown in. And if you rewatch the first big battle in that match, it occurs at 7:00 real time which is exactly where this build begins to shine.
4) Who says you are trading 200 minerals for 200 gas? That is only at the 7 minute mark, by the 8 minute mark you have over a thousand mineral advantage, entirely due to mules. Also the expansion is not late, you expand as early as safely possible. 8:00 is when you expand if your opponent has not expanded, but if he has expanded then you expand earlier yourself. Have you forgotten that Terran buildings can fly and you can expand as early as you deem safe...
I've been doing a variation of this against Toss. The concept is good, but IMO your build order is not optimized very well. Your first OC is way too late and your bunker is too late.
This is what I do that I believe is much more optimized and safer:
10depot 12rax 16OC + marine Bunker 1 more marine 2nd Command center as soon as bunker completes, use CC to wall off with bunker. 2nd depot Gas Gas 2nd Rax 3rd Rax Then transition to more Bio/Ghost army or a Bio/Mech army Expand
On July 06 2010 18:51 link0 wrote: I've been doing a variation of this against Toss and Zerg. The concept is good, but I don't think your build order is very efficient at all for maximizing economy while staying relatively safe. Your first OC is way too late and your bunker is too late.
I have tested getting the orbital command sooner and the second command center a tad later, but YABOT showed this build to have the strongest economy. I can try both in YABOT again to confirm. As for the bunker being late, you can build it whenever you want or not build it at all. It is not a major part of this build order.
You'll die to the first timing push / drop once they scout you, which will come at around 5 mins real time or 7-8 mins game time. A Terran can drop a Thor or a dozen of Marines + some Hellions inside your base around 7:20 game time, a Protoss can have ~10-12 blinking Stalkers at like 8 minutes or so (game time), you're going to be miles behind both in tech and unit count at this point still.
Four massive reasons why a normal expo build works better:
Your second CC is built later, so you have a better idea of what's your opponent doing while they have to commit resources to something, and you can plan and react accordingly to that.
Your second CC yields much better income as soon as it's completed, AND you're not draining your mains' resources as fast - so you will have double income for longer.
If you see dangerous pressure building up after you've placed your second CC, you can reinforce your defenses at your natural by going PF rather than OC on it.
If your opponent goes for a heavy econ build before you place your expo, you can scrap it altogether and win the game by a fast Reaper or Marauder attack, or a Tank timing push etc.
On July 06 2010 19:00 Sethronu wrote: You'll die to the first timing push / drop once they scout you, which will come at around 5 mins real time or 7-8 mins game time. A Terran can drop a Thor or a dozen of Marines + some Hellions inside your base around 7:20 game time, a Protoss can have ~10-12 blinking Stalkers at like 8 minutes or so (game time), you're going to be miles behind both in tech and unit count at this point still.
Four massive reasons why a normal expo build works better:
Your second CC is built later, so you have a better idea of what's your opponent doing while they have to commit resources to something, and you can plan and react accordingly to that.
Your second CC yields much better income as soon as it's completed, AND you're not draining your mains' resources as fast - so you will have double income for longer.
If you see dangerous pressure building up after you've placed your second CC, you can reinforce your defenses at your natural by going PF rather than OC on it.
If your opponent goes for a heavy econ build before you place your expo, you can scrap it altogether and win the game by a fast Reaper or Marauder attack, or a Tank timing push etc.
I know that a Thor drop can arrive as early as 5:15 real time. You should have enough marauders to defend it. I highly doubt they can have 12 blink stalkers in my base at 8 min game time. I have been watching pro games and I have never seen 12 blink stalkers at 8 min gametime.
On July 06 2010 19:25 Sabresandiego wrote: I know that a Thor drop can arrive as early as 5:15 real time. You should have enough marauders to defend it. I highly doubt they can have 12 blink stalkers in my base at 8 min game time. I have been watching pro games and I have never seen 12 blink stalkers at 8 min gametime.
Just went to BO tester to make sure I remember my timings right. 12 Stalkers, Blink researched, proxy Pylon somewhere not too far from your base + 3 Warpgates off cooldown, ~500 minerals to either expand or warp in 3 more Stalkers at 7:49 gametime. Not skipping any Probes either, so my base is fully saturated and I can either continue pushing with more Stalkers, or expand and very quickly saturate my natural as well.
So, I was wrong - I could have 15, not 12 Stalkers with blink before your econ / tech even begins to catch up.
The problem with your build is you invest far too much BEFORE you have any idea of what's going on with your opponent, so you're giving your opponent tons of opportunity to build up any kind of pressure OR econ play, while in the meantime you're stuck to your original BO simply because you've already spent 500 minerals on something you planned before the game started.
How about a Zerg going for fast Muta harass? You wouldn't have the cash to get turrets, nor Thors - and have fun hunting Mutalisks with Marines only, likely unstimmed ones as well. In TvT, you said you'd have enough Marauders to fight a single Thor? Sure, but a Thor + Mediv wouldn't hit your Marauders head on - he'd just oneshot an SCV and get back up into the Mediv, repeat x20. You wouldn't have enough Marines to dispose of the Medivac fast enough - and if you would, you'd not have enough Marauders to kill the Thor. Nevermind that there would be another, and then another Thor coming up to your base every minute while you're stuck scrambling to defend your SCVs with an inferior army - all the while the only advantage you have is that of double MULEs - because my base would be fully saturated or close to it by now anyway.
12-15 stalkers with blink at 7:49 gametime 5:30 real time would defeat this build. I just don't believe those numbers are possible. As a sample comparison, a terran who goes for a thorship with a standard terran build is going to have 1 thor, a dropship, 4-5 marines and 1 or 2 marauders at this timing, and would just as easily be crushed by 15 blinking stalkers. Something tells me your numbers and timings are exagerrated.
What do you want me to do, post a replay of me building them? :p
Just load up BO tester yourself, 7:49 isn't even the fastest you could have this kind of push, with some finetuning you could have these numbers up anywhere in the range of 7:30 - 8:30 gametime.
From a zerg point of view, your just shooting yourself in the foot with this build.
All the early pressure of the terran is gone or his push is way later with this build, and if scouted, you can be sure the zerg can drone whore like theres no tomorrow.
In fact, I dont know what you could do, by the time youd come and harass, Id have my natural and main well saturated with 4 gases and muta tech inc, by the time you push I should probably have my second expo well underway. and a definite army advantage.
W/E advantage you get from that early CC will get negated by the advantage of being left alone for the zerg. You cant outmacro a Zerg, its just simple like that. 2 queens and spawn larva can let me build 15-20 drones in a minute if left alone,while still teching hard, and having any amount of zerglings to face your late harass.
I really dont think this is viable for TvZ, but its all opinion.
On July 06 2010 20:28 Actua wrote: From a zerg point of view, your just shooting yourself in the foot with this build.
All the early pressure of the terran is gone or his push is way later with this build, and if scouted, you can be sure the zerg can drone whore like theres no tomorrow.
In fact, I dont know what you could do, by the time youd come and harass, Id have my natural and main well saturated with 4 gases and muta tech inc, by the time you push I should probably have my second expo well underway. and a definite army advantage.
W/E advantage you get from that early CC will get negated by the advantage of being left alone for the zerg. You cant outmacro a Zerg, its just simple like that. 2 queens and spawn larva can let me build 15-20 drones in a minute if left alone,while still teching hard, and having any amount of zerglings to face your late harass.
I really dont think this is viable for TvZ, but its all opinion.
Probably true, but who says that the terran can't push early with this build or simply convert into an early expansion?
On July 06 2010 20:28 Actua wrote: From a zerg point of view, your just shooting yourself in the foot with this build.
All the early pressure of the terran is gone or his push is way later with this build, and if scouted, you can be sure the zerg can drone whore like theres no tomorrow.
In fact, I dont know what you could do, by the time youd come and harass, Id have my natural and main well saturated with 4 gases and muta tech inc, by the time you push I should probably have my second expo well underway. and a definite army advantage.
W/E advantage you get from that early CC will get negated by the advantage of being left alone for the zerg. You cant outmacro a Zerg, its just simple like that. 2 queens and spawn larva can let me build 15-20 drones in a minute if left alone,while still teching hard, and having any amount of zerglings to face your late harass.
I really dont think this is viable for TvZ, but its all opinion.
Probably true, but who says that the terran can't push early with this build or simply convert into an early expansion?
because you built a CC? You cant take advantage of the same timing windows with your build, its all being pushed a lil later.
If you still try to push, like I said, and really try to squeeze it in as fast as you can, they can probably get away with around 10 more drones and still defend properly and still get away with better tech than if you hadnt early CCed.
Btw, this is all assuming your opponent is scouting well and sees where you going with this, because I admit, an early CC not going into fast expo can confuse and lead to massing ling or roaches to take out an expansion that wont exist tillw ay later.
On July 06 2010 20:23 Sethronu wrote: What do you want me to do, post a replay of me building them? :p
Just load up BO tester yourself, 7:49 isn't even the fastest you could have this kind of push, with some finetuning you could have these numbers up anywhere in the range of 7:30 - 8:30 gametime.
Just found out that your numbers are slightly exaggerated. 12 stalkers with blink at 8:00 GT might be possible, but they are still forced to come through the front door since you need vision to blink. This means they have to face a bunker with 4 marines, 2 more marines outside of bunker, 4 marauders, and 1 thor. The terran force is able to hold
On July 06 2010 19:25 Sabresandiego wrote: I know that a Thor drop can arrive as early as 5:15 real time. You should have enough marauders to defend it. I highly doubt they can have 12 blink stalkers in my base at 8 min game time. I have been watching pro games and I have never seen 12 blink stalkers at 8 min gametime.
Just went to BO tester to make sure I remember my timings right. 12 Stalkers, Blink researched, proxy Pylon somewhere not too far from your base + 3 Warpgates off cooldown, ~500 minerals to either expand or warp in 3 more Stalkers at 7:49 gametime. Not skipping any Probes either, so my base is fully saturated and I can either continue pushing with more Stalkers, or expand and very quickly saturate my natural as well.
So, I was wrong - I could have 15, not 12 Stalkers with blink before your econ / tech even begins to catch up.
The problem with your build is you invest far too much BEFORE you have any idea of what's going on with your opponent, so you're giving your opponent tons of opportunity to build up any kind of pressure OR econ play, while in the meantime you're stuck to your original BO simply because you've already spent 500 minerals on something you planned before the game started.
How about a Zerg going for fast Muta harass? You wouldn't have the cash to get turrets, nor Thors - and have fun hunting Mutalisks with Marines only, likely unstimmed ones as well. In TvT, you said you'd have enough Marauders to fight a single Thor? Sure, but a Thor + Mediv wouldn't hit your Marauders head on - he'd just oneshot an SCV and get back up into the Mediv, repeat x20. You wouldn't have enough Marines to dispose of the Medivac fast enough - and if you would, you'd not have enough Marauders to kill the Thor. Nevermind that there would be another, and then another Thor coming up to your base every minute while you're stuck scrambling to defend your SCVs with an inferior army - all the while the only advantage you have is that of double MULEs - because my base would be fully saturated or close to it by now anyway.
You gravely overestimate the impact getting an early command center has on your military. You do realize that you can have a thor of your own using this build almost as quickly as a terran who was going for a straight thor drop would land in your base? This build doesnt have you as far behind as you imagine.
On July 06 2010 20:23 Sethronu wrote: What do you want me to do, post a replay of me building them? :p
Just load up BO tester yourself, 7:49 isn't even the fastest you could have this kind of push, with some finetuning you could have these numbers up anywhere in the range of 7:30 - 8:30 gametime.
Just found out that your numbers are slightly exaggerated. 12 stalkers with blink at 8:00 GT might be possible, but they are still forced to come through the front door since you need vision to blink. This means they have to face a bunker with 4 marines, 2 more marines outside of bunker, 4 marauders, and 1 thor. The terran force is able to hold
You can have more than 12 Stalkers earlier than 8:00GT, with a perfect BO you can have as many as 15 by 7:30ish - you're right about having to come through front door though as you won't have Robo or Hallucination to blink around - but it hardly matters if you have a superior force; blink is enough to cross the choke so all of them will engage with minimal losses during movement.
On July 06 2010 20:54 Sabresandiego wrote: You gravely overestimate the impact getting an early command center has on your military. You do realize that you can have a thor of your own using this build almost as quickly as a terran who was going for a straight thor drop would land in your base? This build doesnt have you as far behind as you imagine.
No, you can't. You're both mineral blocked AND gas blocked for lengthy periods of time; your factory comes out a lot later, AND you're not going to have the early defensive units either - unless you opt to delay your Factory even further. The fastest you can have a Thor out with getting a second CC before gas the way you do, is a little past 8 minutes gametime mark, and this is with holding back on Marine production and placing all your buildings next to your base rather than moving SCVs to wall-off spot. It might not look like a big deal, these extra 30-50 seconds, and in many ladder games you'd probably get away with it - but anyone doing a timing push correctly would annihilate you.
Another reason why this build isn't that great is, your main is close to being fully saturated with workers right about the time your second OC is finished - having an extra MULE is nice, but the SCV production isn't all that useful; and with most Terran builds being as gas hungry as they are, the extra MULEs don't really make up for the loss of gas.
Really, it's just not worth it over going for a normal FE build - that you place after scouting and after you're confident you can hold your own.
On July 06 2010 20:23 Sethronu wrote: What do you want me to do, post a replay of me building them? :p
Just load up BO tester yourself, 7:49 isn't even the fastest you could have this kind of push, with some finetuning you could have these numbers up anywhere in the range of 7:30 - 8:30 gametime.
Just found out that your numbers are slightly exaggerated. 12 stalkers with blink at 8:00 GT might be possible, but they are still forced to come through the front door since you need vision to blink. This means they have to face a bunker with 4 marines, 2 more marines outside of bunker, 4 marauders, and 1 thor. The terran force is able to hold
You can have more than 12 Stalkers earlier than 8:00GT, with a perfect BO you can have as many as 15 by 7:30ish - you're right about having to come through front door though as you won't have Robo or Hallucination to blink around - but it hardly matters if you have a superior force; blink is enough to cross the choke so all of them will engage with minimal losses during movement.
At 8:30 Gametime I have 1 thor, 5-7 marauders, 6 marines and a bunker at my choke. This will hold off 15 stalkers, and I highly, highly doubt 15 stalkers will be at my door before 8:30 gametime.
On July 06 2010 20:54 Sabresandiego wrote: You gravely overestimate the impact getting an early command center has on your military. You do realize that you can have a thor of your own using this build almost as quickly as a terran who was going for a straight thor drop would land in your base? This build doesnt have you as far behind as you imagine.
No, you can't. You're both mineral blocked AND gas blocked for lengthy periods of time; your factory comes out a lot later, AND you're not going to have the early defensive units either - unless you opt to delay your Factory even further. The fastest you can have a Thor out with getting a second CC before gas the way you do, is a little past 8 minutes gametime mark, and this is with holding back on Marine production and placing all your buildings next to your base rather than moving SCVs to wall-off spot. It might not look like a big deal, these extra 30-50 seconds, and in many ladder games you'd probably get away with it - but anyone doing a timing push correctly would annihilate you.
Another reason why this build isn't that great is, your main is close to being fully saturated with workers right about the time your second OC is finished - having an extra MULE is nice, but the SCV production isn't all that useful; and with most Terran builds being as gas hungry as they are, the extra MULEs don't really make up for the loss of gas.
Really, it's just not worth it over going for a normal FE build - that you place after scouting and after you're confident you can hold your own.
You are correct here with the timing of the first thor. It comes at 8:00 gametime if you are optimal but I can walloff, get a bunker, and still get the thor out at 8:00 GT. The blinking stalkers will arrive right when the Thor comes out, so it is a very close call whether this build will survive or not. 6 marines, 5 marauders, 1 thor, 1 hellion, 1 bunker and a choke vs 12-15 stalkers. Terran defense holds IMO
Also, how did you know that the first THOR arrives at 8:00 GT with this build? did you test the build?
On July 06 2010 21:19 Sabresandiego wrote:At 8:30 Gametime I have 1 thor, 5-7 marauders, 6 marines and a bunker at my choke. This will hold off 15 stalkers, and I highly, highly doubt 15 stalkers will be at my door before 8:30 gametime.
Well, I don't have much to add to the discussion seeing as you continue to ignore my points so I'll just go away.
@ your second post, yes I did test it, and I still don't see how you can bunker & wall-in while getting some early Marines and still manage a 8 minute Thor, but whatever.
On July 06 2010 21:29 Sabresandiego wrote: I don't disagree with your points. They are valid concerns, but they don't make the build unusable.
They don't - I'm sure the build could work under certain circumstances - it's just annoying how you keep saying "you cant have stalkers before x, you cant have stalkers before x", when I just ran the BO I use for a Stalker timing push 3 times just to make sure I have the numbers right.
On July 06 2010 21:29 Sabresandiego wrote: I don't disagree with your points. They are valid concerns, but they don't make the build unusable.
They don't - I'm sure the build could work under certain circumstances - it's just annoying how you keep saying "you cant have stalkers before x, you cant have stalkers before x", when I just ran the BO I use for a Stalker timing push 3 times just to make sure I have the numbers right.
How did you know that the first Thor arrives at 8:00 GT in this build, have you been testing it? BTW I get the Thor out at 8:00 GT +- 15seconds without stopping production of scv, marine, or marauder and with a nice wall off. I agree that the timing of this THOR is critical, but it arrives just in the nick of time to save you where the build is at its weakest (6:00 GT to 8:00 GT)
On July 06 2010 21:29 Sabresandiego wrote: I don't disagree with your points. They are valid concerns, but they don't make the build unusable.
They don't - I'm sure the build could work under certain circumstances - it's just annoying how you keep saying "you cant have stalkers before x, you cant have stalkers before x", when I just ran the BO I use for a Stalker timing push 3 times just to make sure I have the numbers right.
Im more interested in when the 15 stalkers are actually at my walloff, not when you have them. Thats why I feel that your times may be slightly fast. 15 stalkers at 7:30 at my front door will almost always beat this build, but at 8:00 this build survives due to Thor. Thats why slight exagerrations completely change everything.
To get the Thor out at 8:00 GT without sacrificing constant marines/marauders SCV you do the following.
10 depot 12.5 rax (meaning queue 1 additional scv at 12 before building rax) 16 marine, build marines nonstop 17 (Stop at 16 scv's and 1 marine in production) command center 2 18 orbital command 1 19 depot ----> optional bunker when depot finished (my preference) 19 double refinery -orbital command 2 when cc2 is finished -factory with first 100 gas -next 150 minerals to second rax -tech lab with next 25 gas after 6 marines
as soon as factory is finished make an armory immediately and a hellion. Get tech labs on both rax and pump marauders nonstop at this point. As soon as hellion finishes send it into the enemy base to see whats going on and get a tech lab on factory. Make sure you aren't supply blocked (Thors take lots of supply) and queue a Thor the instant your armory finishes. It should be complete by the 8:00 mark +- 15 seconds if you performed the build optimally.
That's more or less the order I went for; there's just too much downtime while waiting for gas etc to get it anywhere before 8 minutes - while being extremelly vulnerable to any kind of pressure all the way up to it.
The Stalkers are going to be at your base as soon as they're finished - which is as early as 7:30 because warp gate is so overpowered and you simply have no way of killing my proxy pylon outside of your base.
And the biggest issue is, assuming you did survive until your Thor completed and are starting to feel comfortable... my main is going to be fully saturated all the same so you really have no econ advantage apart from extra MULEs (but you're gas blocked anyway...) until you push out to your natural - which is simply not going to happen unless your opponent allows you to.
On July 06 2010 22:01 Sethronu wrote: That's more or less the order I went for; there's just too much downtime while waiting for gas etc to get it anywhere before 8 minutes - while being extremelly vulnerable to any kind of pressure all the way up to it.
The Stalkers are going to be at your base as soon as they're finished - which is as early as 7:30 because warp gate is so overpowered and you simply have no way of killing my proxy pylon outside of your base.
And the biggest issue is, assuming you did survive until your Thor completed and are starting to feel comfortable... my main is going to be fully saturated all the same so you really have no econ advantage until you push out to your natural - which is simply not going to happen unless your opponent allows you to.
Thats true, except for the fact that I have double mules which is quite signficant. You are correct that if I can't push out of my base then I'm in trouble. Getting siege tanks after my second Thor will break any contain. The true problem with this build is surviving the 6:00 GT to 8:00GT window where a timing push can end the game. If I can survive to my first Thor, the game starts to tip in my favor.
On July 06 2010 18:25 Sabresandiego wrote: Thanks for your reply. You bring up valid concerns initially but you seem to end your post with hostility and complete falacies about this build. I want to address your critique the best that I can. This build is untested in ladder, and may very well be unviable due to something I overlooked. However, from my current tests against the AI and comparisons on YABOT I can completely defend this build specifically from the points you make, including the lies.
1) At 7:00 real time your military is roughly equal to an opponent who has not expanded. At 8:00 real time you are slightly ahead of an opponent who has not expanded. HOWEVER, if your opponent plays exactly as you said and expands in response to your double CC, your military will catch up to the strength of his extremely rapidly considering that he just dumped 400 minerals himself, and surpass it even sooner. His fast expand will not yield a stronger military for several minutes, meaning you can lift off and expand yourself. Thus, you maintain your lead because you had your expansion already built and more scv's because of it.
2)You are completely correct in your analysis but you forgot one huge factor: Mules. The oversaturation of SCV's is primarily in order to be able to quickly fully saturate your expansion when you do expand. The big thing you are overlooking here is mules. Your analysis also neglects SCV's who are building or scouting. Saturation has no effect on mules, and you are able to call in double the mules as you normally would, thus rapidly spiking your mineral income. The Yabot numbers do not lie, at the 7:00 real time mark you have +1000 minerals and -200 gas compared to a standard terran build.
3)What TLO did is very similar to this build, but less effective. The main difference is he neglects gas and tech for much longer than this build and instead goes heavy minerals into mass infantry. His expansion does not even start mining until 6:30 real time and with no SCV saturation whatsoever due to being on an island. My build has you expand at either the 8:00 RT mark, or exactly 1 min after your opponent begins construction on his own expansion (which can be very early). You get gas MUCH faster with my build than TLO's and are also much faster in tech than TLO, and would have those vikings much sooner than he did. This is the part I'm not following you because your critique was intelligent at first but now is just an outright attack with falacies thrown in. And if you rewatch the first big battle in that match, it occurs at 7:00 real time which is exactly where this build begins to shine.
4) Who says you are trading 200 minerals for 200 gas? That is only at the 7 minute mark, by the 8 minute mark you have over a thousand mineral advantage, entirely due to mules. Also the expansion is not late, you expand as early as safely possible. 8:00 is when you expand if your opponent has not expanded, but if he has expanded then you expand earlier yourself. Have you forgotten that Terran buildings can fly and you can expand as early as you deem safe...
I'm not trying to be hostile, just to address what I see as faults. I'm not saying that your build sucks or that it won't work, I just don't think it's nearly as safe or advantageous as you do. Terran is not my main, but I can't see how your build is any better than a normal safe FE with however many bunkers you need to secure it. This will probably come out as overly negative, but critiques tend to be that way:
1) Let's ignore zerg and focus on protoss so we don't have to have multiple arguments. Anyway that's my most played race so I'm more comfortable. Forget 7 minutes real time, that's 10 minutes into the game, there's way too much stuff that happens before then. You keep mentioning it as if it's an important benchmark, but it's not. You need to get there first, you're not playing in isolation. At 6-7 minutes Game Time, you will NOT be anywhere near even army size with a protoss that did some combination of 2-3 gate robo on 1 base. That's as standard a build as protoss has. How are you even going to live through the first 1-2 immortal timing push when you have all those minerals invested into your two CC/OC? This is going to happen well well before 7-8 minutes RT.
But forget the immortal push, that's too late too. Let's think earlier in the game than that. You're not building your factory until after your 3rd CC are up, so you're walling with your Rax+CC which means any poke is going to spot this right? When he pokes up your ramp he's going to see at least one CC at the ramp and that your army is weak. He has better options than attacking now:
He will expand right away and then park his army at the bottom of your ramp and take whatever watchtower is near for reaper spotting. He can prevent you from expanding with an inferior army as long as he has a couple sentries to cut you in half if you try to move down your ramp. So you're giving your opponent an uncontested expansion and letting him contain you with a small group of sentries and whatever else he has. He doesn't need to invest any more into his army now. This will last until you get siege tanks or dropships, or whatever air you fancy. But your factory is delayed a bit and your gas is later than normal, so that'll be a while, right? So I don't see how you can possibly stop him from macroing harder than you because you can't expand when you want to. Am I wrong?
2) Yes I know that scvs have to build unlike protoss, so just compare 18 scvs vs 26 then, the argument is still exactly the same.
I thought you already said that you're not +1000 minerals, you're only about +200 because of the cost of the CCs, minus the cost of 22 supply and whatever implicit cost to scvs making buildings instead of mining. But again, you're talking about 7 minutes of real time which IS NOT important if you can't get to that point. Up until then you'll be down. Most importantly you'll be down ~800 minerals when your supply is still in the 20s. That is HUGE. You said yourself that you're still down in tech 7 RT minutes in, so that's a big timing window to exploit.
3) Again, TLO's build and yours are very different. Just because he makes a OC before expanding doesn't make it the same. He is aggressively early expanding as soon as is even remotely safe. You are passively not expanding and MULEing on one base and delaying your expand with another CC/OC. You think you can just take your expand whenever you want to, but I disagree as stated above.
Sorry I didn't notice his late late gas in that VoD; it is a moot point anyway. With so many differences, I'm failing to understand how you think TLO's build is in any way the same as yours. You're thinking of teching to tanks/thors which the protoss will get immortals for, and since he won't have to tech all the way up to colossi, nor wait for two colossi to build, nor wait for 200 gas to research extended range, nor wait for that research to finish before attacking. Toss can push with his standard 2 immortals so much earlier. If you only meant mech vs Z, then ignore that. But you still have to deal with the forcefield contain without the range advantage of tanks, and the slow tech to air to break the contain.
4) I think I addressed this already in previous points. Namely that talking about 7-8 minutes real time doesn't matter, that he can cut your force in half until you get tanks/air, etc.
5)This is just what toss has to offer. I'm sure you can figure out problems to deal with for TvZ and TvT. I also didn't mention all the other stuff P has before 8 minutes of GAME time: -Any air rush which I didn't even start to think about. -Blink stalkers. -Immortal drops + pressure at your front. -Pylon warp-ins inside your base with any combination of the above (build a pylon along the cliff edge of your main, then get vision to warp in past the wall. Attack the ramp for vision, or obs, or illusion). This is crucial, as your wall will be breached right away and once the 1 barracks goes down, you can no longer re-wall yourself, and his warpgates will outproduce you with 0 travel time. -Etc, etc, etc.
I just tried something out and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but before you can get your thor out I can have 3 +1 void rays out, and all you got to defend yourself with is a bunker. How are you going to deal with that?
This I build I feel is acctually really strong against protoss because you have extra energy for scans that you normally wouldn't have, allowing you to stay ahead in scouting info, snipe obs, and protect your self from early DT rushes. Against Zerg and Terran this build is suicidal. Zerg will outmacro the crap outta you, knowing its safe to pump drones because you are behind on army for early harass. Your wall is worthless against terran because they will seige it. Also, minerals are not that important in TvT, gas is the problem and that requires expansions.
Sabresandiego, in my HDH series against TLO he did a similar build in every TvP (4 games) and it worked only the first time. And to be honest, I almost never go straight Colossus in PvT so I had no idea what I was doing in that first game haha. You should check out the next three TvP's in that series and see what you think. I'm not saying the fast expansion build is proven ineffective by those games but I am saying that you'd have a better chance of developing the build by addressing games where it fails.
I do believe that the way TLO was doing it (later gas, keeping the 2nd CC in his base for a while) is a safer way to do it against some early game dangers. If you adjust the build to expand sooner and get gas sooner so that you're safer against the mid game threats, I'm almost certain you're going to be more vulnerable to early game threats.
You're cutting probes to get this up early (I assume). If so your investment is higher than 550 (400+150 for orb).
Until you have a chance to play against other humans you likely won't know for certain how weak/strong the build is, but I imagine you're going to lose against aggressive one-base play.
Since in TvT the terran would be 1 min ahead on tanks, wouldn't a proxy factory on a map like desert oasis destroy this build? Wouldn't this build be weak to all sorts of proxys as it would nullify to the travel time advantage you are possibly relying on?
I'm telling you this will NOT work, but it's hard to explain to you why. The only way this would work is if your enemy didn't scout or apply any pressure at all.
Thanks for all the replies. This build obviously has several theoretical weak points, which can only be addressed by actually playing against real people instead of the computer. It is very possible that this build is simply not worth it.
That being said, we can still look at a few critical timings of this build and compare it to its biggest threats.
8:00 GT = First thor emerges from factory if you decide to go Thor/Infantry and are extremely proficient with the build. You should have about 6 marines, 5 marauders, 1 hellion, 1 thor at 8:00 GT. This will hold any timing push
The problem comes with timing attacks that occur before 8:00 GT. A proxy pylon can have stalkers at your door or a proxy factory can have tanks at your doorstep sieging your base much sooner. All you have to defend at this point in the game is 4-6 marines, a bunker, and 1-2 marauders. Can you survive or does the build autolose to pushes before 8:00 GT? That is a good question.
On July 07 2010 01:13 TheFinalWord wrote: Since in TvT the terran would be 1 min ahead on tanks, wouldn't a proxy factory on a map like desert oasis destroy this build? Wouldn't this build be weak to all sorts of proxys as it would nullify to the travel time advantage you are possibly relying on?
The build is very weak to proxy, proxy factory is probably the worst. What is the timing on a proxy factory tank with siege mode fully researched? Timing is everything, but most likely the tank is there early enough to defeat this build (unless I modify it).
I believe it is a good idea to always be getting early Orbital Command as terran. simply because after dropping 2 mules from the Orbital command(building extra scvs aside) you already have paid for your investment and you have to opportunity to expand and transfer as soon at it becomes available(no waiting for CC to be built and OC upgrade.)
Aaah, someone used this against my Protoss and I was very surprised at how well he could sustain an army from one base. He was producing marauders from 5 barracks with tech labs consistently. I wasn't able to kill him with the first push and he quickly caught up in resources, reaching nearly double my mineral income at certain points.
On July 06 2010 12:50 Kitad wrote: Against a timing push you will be 600 minerals behind, and the economy benefit of a CC that's not an expansion will not kick in, a bunker won't stop it
well a second base not at an expo will provide quite a bit actually. It takes roughly 26 scvs to saturate a base, not to mention you get extra mules/scans.
And I have a similar build but I bring the OC before I put up the second CC
i would use this in in all match ups except in tvt. i say this because marines vs a reaper just isn't fair. it just sounds far to vulnerable. i fell like you would lose your econ from wat would be a very effective reaper rush. its to much of gamble to just hope that you opponent won't reaper rush u
EPT
I would want to complete my wall in before the command goes up, to prevent any early pressure. Do you wall with the CC? Another advantage is being able to lift and take your natural very easily.
