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On June 14 2010 15:22 Praeses wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 14:56 metaldragon wrote:On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote:
Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability. 1a syndrome at its finest! Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND! Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier. I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP! Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO. Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding? I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them. If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line. I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol... Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea..
I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier.
I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things.
Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain!
EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback
you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning!
You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P
1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway)
2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!)
3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT...
4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army.
Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
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On June 14 2010 15:33 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 15:22 Praeses wrote:On June 14 2010 14:56 metaldragon wrote:On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote:
Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability. 1a syndrome at its finest! Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND! Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier. I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP! Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO. Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding? I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them. If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line. I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol... Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea.. I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier. I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things. Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain! EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning! You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P 1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT... 4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army. Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
I didn't mean pure immortal by "straight up" I just meant that having immortals in ur army even w/o EMP doesn't break tank lines. I makes it a bit easier, but it really doesn't...so we agree on that =P. Btw you vastly overestimate massing immortals...its really a bad ideal in general b/c a good terran will intercept u and they'll never get to the tanks. Even w/"ok" positioning.
What I was suggesting was that by letting immortals get an upgrade to avoid EMP, it lets you use them on the ground a bit more effectively then b4 (which is don't build them in general late game vs mech).
I'm not complaining about mech or the ghost. I just saying that toss should be able to employ the immortal as it was designed (as a tank mixed in w/their army). I actually like the back and forth of EMP vs HTs...I just don't like how they essentially make it so u can't use the immortal in a designed role.
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On June 14 2010 15:41 Praeses wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 15:33 metaldragon wrote:On June 14 2010 15:22 Praeses wrote:On June 14 2010 14:56 metaldragon wrote:On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote:
Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability. 1a syndrome at its finest! Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND! Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier. I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP! Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO. Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding? I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them. If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line. I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol... Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea.. I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier. I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things. Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain! EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning! You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P 1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT... 4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army. Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a! I didn't mean pure immortal by "straight up" I just meant that having immortals in ur army even w/o EMP doesn't break tank lines. I makes it a bit easier, but it really doesn't...so we agree on that =P. Btw you vastly overestimate massing immortals...its really a bad ideal in general b/c a good terran will intercept u and they'll never get to the tanks. Even w/"ok" positioning. What I was suggesting was that by letting immortals get an upgrade to avoid EMP, it lets you use them on the ground a bit more effectively then b4 (which is don't build them in general late game vs mech). I'm not complaining about mech or the ghost. I just saying that toss should be able to employ the immortal as it was designed (as a tank mixed in w/their army). I actually like the back and forth of EMP vs HTs...I just don't like how they essentially make it so u can't use the immortal in a designed role.
Make more immortals if you need them to tank more. Immortals tank just fine like i said unless the terran has 20 siege tanks the immortals will win out just fine and cost less gas strait up.
If he has ghost thats even less gas he will have for tanks. There are tons of solutions to your problems you clearly are stuck on 1Aing your way thru the tank like reguardless as showing by your insane "make immortal immune to EMP comment".
Immortals tank just fine. Need more tanking power? hallucinate a few of them before battle if your that cheap about it! I mean if you took 2 minutes to honestly think about how to solve your problem past "NERF PLEASE" you would have easily come up with solutions.
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On June 14 2010 15:53 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 15:41 Praeses wrote:On June 14 2010 15:33 metaldragon wrote:On June 14 2010 15:22 Praeses wrote:On June 14 2010 14:56 metaldragon wrote:On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote:
Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability. 1a syndrome at its finest! Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND! Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier. I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP! Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO. Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding? I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them. If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line. I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol... Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea.. I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier. I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things. Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain! EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning! You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P 1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT... 4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army. Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a! I didn't mean pure immortal by "straight up" I just meant that having immortals in ur army even w/o EMP doesn't break tank lines. I makes it a bit easier, but it really doesn't...so we agree on that =P. Btw you vastly overestimate massing immortals...its really a bad ideal in general b/c a good terran will intercept u and they'll never get to the tanks. Even w/"ok" positioning. What I was suggesting was that by letting immortals get an upgrade to avoid EMP, it lets you use them on the ground a bit more effectively then b4 (which is don't build them in general late game vs mech). I'm not complaining about mech or the ghost. I just saying that toss should be able to employ the immortal as it was designed (as a tank mixed in w/their army). I actually like the back and forth of EMP vs HTs...I just don't like how they essentially make it so u can't use the immortal in a designed role. Make more immortals if you need them to tank more. Immortals tank just fine like i said unless the terran has 20 siege tanks the immortals will win out just fine and cost less gas strait up. If he has ghost thats even less gas he will have for tanks. There are tons of solutions to your problems you clearly are stuck on 1Aing your way thru the tank like reguardless as showing by your insane "make immortal immune to EMP comment". Immortals tank just fine. Need more tanking power? hallucinate a few of them before battle if your that cheap about it! I mean if you took 2 minutes to honestly think about how to solve your problem past "NERF PLEASE" you would have easily come up with solutions.
Ok...first...calm down...don't get so defensive/offended....
I'm not "stuck on 1Aing through a tank line"...against mech I go air (phoenix to void ray late game) and get generally charge lots, blink stalkers...some templar and robo for obs/warp prism harrass...it works out fairly well...its pretty fun to play.
I'm just saying that immortals don't fulfill their role at all against terran and outside of a strong midgame timing push, they're almost never worth building...collosus is much better against bio and they're not good vs mech b/c of EMP. Honestly...a toss player wouldnt be able to use immortals against mech even w/o EMP b/c their crippled by both slow movement speed and short range.
I like what EMP brings to the terran vs toss meta, esp trying to use storm against ghost/bio. I just feel that it makes immortals the red headed stepchild of toss...and I wanted a way that tosses could use them more in the late game vs mech.
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On June 14 2010 15:28 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 13:46 Champi wrote:t it just makes terran bio destory protoss lol Protoss players learned how to beat Terran bio long ago. Go check out White-Ra vs Maka (I think that was the one, correct me if I'm wrong) on Day[9]'s cast. High Templars rip through bio and as long as they're split they can't all be EMPed.
High Templars will only "rip through bio" if you poorly place your bio (clumping marines together, instead of using marauders to tank), let your units sit in the storms, and/or allow your medivacs to get feedback'd. Also, HT's absolutely can be consistently EMP'd - A T going bio can afford to have at LEAST as many ghosts as I as a P have temps, and after you take care of the temps, it's easy enough to use the leftover energy on units, knock out shields and energy, then ROFLSTOMP the P.
If it were possible to micro away from EMP (read: make it a projectile) so that if I'm paying attention I have a CHANCE to not have almost half my army's health eliminated with a few shift clicks. Don't tell me to spread my units better - any spread that's realizable on the current ladder maps is still only going to take a handful of EMPs rather than a single one.
If EMP were a projectile, it would still be very powerful, especially if cast when marauders were in range, because slow > retreat. BUT it would make it so that toss had some solution (notice that word. Solution, not counter. I'm looking for something possible, but not necessarily easy) to EMP. Then things would be fine.
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On June 14 2010 15:33 metaldragon wrote:
You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P
1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway)
2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!)
3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT...
4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army.
Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
1: Feedback Range: 9. EMP Range: 10 + 2 Radius = 12. Feedback is single target (requires more precision). Between two equally skilled players, EMP should win. Also, HT's are higher tiered units.
2: EMP reveals DT's. Terran players get Orbital Command early.
3: Graviton Beam Range: 4. EMP Range: 10 + 2 Radius. Ghosts do excellent damage against Light units and Pheonixes are Light units.
4: Tanks and Void Rays are irrelevant to a discussion about dealing with EMP.
Army spreading helps (ie: not 1a'ing), but assuming a Terran can obtain a paltry two ghosts by the midgame (as brat_OK did in the latest Day9), it's not hard to cover a well-spread Protoss army with EMP's.
In an effort to "Start THINKING" and just deal with the game as if it is perfectly balanced by the hand of god, I'd like to find an effective army composition against brat_OK's opening. It basically went with one barracks with a tech lab and one barracks with a reactor, then a ghost academy, then a starport for medivacs. He got a reaper with which to scout, then pumped lots of marines and got Shields and Stim and a handful of ghosts. Most of the damage in this build is coming from the marine heavy army, and brat_OK always did a mid-game timing push as soon as Stim finished. A marine-heavy army composition would suck against Colossi, but those wouldn't be up yet, so I can probably rule that out, unless you can think of a Colossus rush that is stable in more situations. DT rush didn't work against brat_OK because he built a wall and EMP'd the DT's sent to his ramp until the tech lab and raven at his starport were finished. The build ran over a couple different variations of warpgate heavy armies, and, of course, it rolled over Immortals (Marined are already good against Immortals). I also noticed that brat_OK scouted a stargate and didn't alter his build or unit composition at all. That Stargate was cancelled, but the fact that the Terran player didn't freak out leads me to believe Stargate tech isn't incredibly strong against the marine-ghost-medivac army composition. DT's might force a Terran player to expend an EMP and only kill one unit, but going DT's always means that you're bread 'n butter army is weakened, so the effect of removing EMP might be offset by your own weakened army. So what does that leave a Protoss player with? My initial instinct is that Chargelots would rock, since they retain two thirds of their health when EMPed. Day9 mentioned that if the mid game timing push was unsuccessful, brat_OK transitioned into marauder heavy armies (so Chargelots, again, would be pretty handy) or tank-heavy armies (Chargelots get roasted, but maybe a Void Ray transition would be viable).
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On June 14 2010 14:24 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it." I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!? This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion. Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.
Let's keep this civil alright?
1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a.
2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.
3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint.
It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument.
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On June 14 2010 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 14:24 metaldragon wrote:
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it." I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!? This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion. Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp. Let's keep this civil alright? 1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a. 2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint. It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument.
If Its not breaking the match up then Why in the world are you crying nerf?!
This has been going on since the beginning of the beta and blizz has already nerfed the spell multiple times.
Dont want your immortals emped? Put them in a warp prism!
Same With your HT!
I mean a little micro > every complain in this thread.
None of you want to do anything but hope and pray the blizz gods nerf the other races in your favor.
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On June 14 2010 23:57 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On June 14 2010 14:24 metaldragon wrote:
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it." I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!? This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion. Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp. Let's keep this civil alright? 1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a. 2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint. It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument. If Its not breaking the match up then Why in the world are you crying nerf?! This has been going on since the beginning of the beta and blizz has already nerfed the spell multiple times. Dont want your immortals emped? Put them in a warp prism! Same With your HT! I mean a little micro > every complain in this thread. None of you want to do anything but hope and pray the blizz gods nerf the other races in your favor.
I guess keeping it civil really isn't your style...
What should Huk have done in the replay day9 went through?
Wheter or not the spell has been nerfed before isn't interesting at all - the VR had been nerfed before the range nerf as well.
The problem is that it isn't "a little micro" it is "a lot of micro which still won't significantly help if the terran has a brain" - que Brat-OK vs Huk.
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On June 15 2010 00:18 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 23:57 metaldragon wrote:On June 14 2010 20:42 Ghostcom wrote:On June 14 2010 14:24 metaldragon wrote:
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it." I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!? This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion. Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp. Let's keep this civil alright? 1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a. 2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint. It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument. If Its not breaking the match up then Why in the world are you crying nerf?! This has been going on since the beginning of the beta and blizz has already nerfed the spell multiple times. Dont want your immortals emped? Put them in a warp prism! Same With your HT! I mean a little micro > every complain in this thread. None of you want to do anything but hope and pray the blizz gods nerf the other races in your favor. I guess keeping it civil really isn't your style... What should Huk have done in the replay day9 went through? Wheter or not the spell has been nerfed before isn't interesting at all - the VR had been nerfed before the range nerf as well. The problem is that it isn't "a little micro" it is "a lot of micro which still won't significantly help if the terran has a brain" - que Brat-OK vs Huk.
there was only 1-2 ghost and plenty of time any templar tech would have demolished the build Bratok Did.
Storm and feedback hurt medivac,ghost and marines all HARD.
Even 1-2 DT would have been enough to snipe the ghost and again make it a cake walk.
The issue here is Most Toss are STUCK on robo only tech Vs T and would rather See the ghost nerfed before they Use Templar tech.
You have other tech options...use them.
Most of your train of though is just plain Backwards
This is how most of you ARE thinking
--I Like using this strat and i see alot of other Toss doing this but MOVE A is really hard to beat how should blizz nerf MOVE A?
instead of
-- Move A Is giving alot of Toss Problems What can we do differently To combat Move A?
All i see in this thread is Toss saying "the sky is falling our standard BO don't work 65% of the time". Toss was 60:40 vs T last time we had the data to check BTW.
Huk lost that game due to bad scouting period. Bratok went marine heavy and Huk Still had immortals in his army composition when he should have had either faster collisi or Templar to properly counter heavy marines.
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Okay I think it is settled, metaldragon is trolling...
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Oh, now that Day9 covers a replay of a known player doing it, all of a sudden its viable. Nevermind the rest of us talking about it for the last 3 weeks or anything. No, we're just crazy.
Does this mean we can stop all of the:
"Its IMPOSSIBLE to get Ghosts!"
"Early Ghosts aren't viable!"
"Everyone goes mech!"
"You're just bad"
"It costs way too much gas!"
"You're Protoss, just 1a2a3a and win"
now, please?
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On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote:
You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
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On June 15 2010 00:42 Ghostcom wrote:
Okay I think it is settled, metaldragon is trolling...
I'm Trolling because I'm suggesting way you can actually Beat the build instead of acting like the sky is falling?
Sometimes i feel like I'm on the WOW forums with some of the complaints and "logic" i see used here.
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Being a protoss player myself, the only thing that I have against EMP is the idea that Terran gets a anti-P ability by default. No race should get any anti-race abilities by default in my humble oppinion.
- Tash
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On June 15 2010 00:52 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 00:50 metaldragon wrote:On June 15 2010 00:42 Ghostcom wrote:
Okay I think it is settled, metaldragon is trolling... I'm Trolling because I'm suggesting way you can actually Beat the build instead of acting like the sky is falling? You're trolling because you seriously think that you're smarter than others. In fact you act like other are mindless trash.
I'm mindless trash but you take 1-2 games of huk losing to a build and cry imbalance?
Which one of us do you honestly think is being mindless right here?
Is the build effective of course it is vs The Standard Toss BO right now
Is it imbalance?....Hardly
You have ways to deal with ghost early.
Feedback - Hard but doable!
DT snipe - Scans are in short supply!
Phoenix snipe - 3x easier with move and shot.
You have solutions you can either
A. Try to use them
B. Cry about EMP
What makes this even worst is that T is on the LOW end of the win rate for this match up and you want to make it even Harder.
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On June 15 2010 00:45 metaldragon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote:
You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings. What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard. When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses. There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
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EPT
