PvT way to deal with EMP - Page 12

On June 14 2010 09:50 D3lta wrote:

There's been substantial evidence that the question is answered: YES, toss player can EASILY win a ground a fight when EMPed. There has been no evidence provided that Terran players using ghosts have any kind of substantial edge over Protoss. Just a lot of complaining with no real basis provided. At least in the T mech vs Zerg arguments, you have top players of BOTH races attesting that it was imbalanced, with replays and stats provided. Even in this case, it turns out that time seems to providing zerg with other answers than "nerf mech."
There has been nothing like that provided here, and furthermore, there is no evidence that this opinion on OP ghosts is extremely wide spread. Marauders probably get way more complaints, which is a testament to the average level of play a complaining player is at. Even when you get the players on this thread to admit this, its only under the veil of "yea but the toss player has to play WAAY better." Again why has toss historically had the higher win % over Terran in all levels of platinum (later diamond) play? Not radically higher, but a good 54-52%. Sounds kind of balanced to me...

On June 14 2010 09:56 STS17 wrote:
Hmm...would adding a game-wide shout out saying "Warning: Nuclear Launch EMP Detected" and then a 20 second delay before the Nuke EMP goes off satisfy anyone?

Personally, I think people need to reword this whole "Protoss have no answer to EMP" argument. Maybe I'm the only one but to me that says that as soon as EMP hits the field it becomes impossible for the Protoss player to win because no matter what they do they can't overcome the Terran army. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe there are many games where the Terran player still gets EMP and loses right? It would seem those victorious Protoss players have found an answer to it since they did win after all.

On June 14 2010 09:50 D3lta wrote:

There's been substantial evidence that the question is answered: YES, toss player can EASILY win a ground a fight when EMPed. There has been no evidence provided that Terran players using ghosts have any kind of substantial edge over Protoss. Just a lot of complaining with no real basis provided. At least in the T mech vs Zerg arguments, you have top players of BOTH races attesting that it was imbalanced, with replays and stats provided. Even in this case, it turns out that time seems to providing zerg with other answers than "nerf mech."
There has been nothing like that provided here, and furthermore, there is no evidence that this opinion on OP ghosts is extremely wide spread. Marauders probably get way more complaints, which is a testament to the average level of play a complaining player is at. Even when you get the players on this thread to admit this, its only under the veil of "yea but the toss player has to play WAAY better." Again why has toss historically had the higher win % over Terran in all levels of platinum (later diamond) play? Not radically higher, but a good 54-52%. Sounds kind of balanced to me...

On June 14 2010 09:56 STS17 wrote:
Hmm...would adding a game-wide shout out saying "Warning: Nuclear Launch EMP Detected" and then a 20 second delay before the Nuke EMP goes off satisfy anyone?

Personally, I think people need to reword this whole "Protoss have no answer to EMP" argument. Maybe I'm the only one but to me that says that as soon as EMP hits the field it becomes impossible for the Protoss player to win because no matter what they do they can't overcome the Terran army. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe there are many games where the Terran player still gets EMP and loses right? It would seem those victorious Protoss players have found an answer to it since they did win after all.

On June 14 2010 05:56 0mar wrote:
EMP goes to raven, 50e lockdown on ghosts as a researchable, 100/100 70s.

On June 14 2010 13:10 SilverforceX wrote:


This is a pretty good suggestion imo.

Raven can drop either turret or hsm, gets EMP as a research ability (200/200, 110s similar to sc1). EMP range drop to 6.

Lockdown on ghosts would be great, since its single target. You can still counter it with feedback if u are fast at HT micro.

Edit: There's no reason why terran needs to have a super powerful anti-protoss ability at T1.5. A barracks army at t1.5 has no issues with a similar tech protoss army at this timing window. EMP should be on the field by the time protoss can field HT or powerful mass armies, so T3 on Raven fits.

On June 14 2010 13:46 Kratisto wrote:



All of those are really drastic changes that would make EMP come out far later. Why would a Terran player use EMP at all when it's competing for energy with Point Defense Drone? I think it would become an even less-used Seeker Missile. I like the EMP on the Ghost, and I think that it's close to being balanced, but it definitely needs a tweak. Making it range 6 would make it a little weaker to Feedback, and would make Ghosts a lot easier to snipe. Giving the EMP a projectile or nuke-style calldown (but on a much shorter timer) would make it dodgeable Psi Storm style. Moving it to a much higher tech, increasing its cost, reducing its range, and putting it on a unit which has a much better ability competing for energy, though, would be far too drastic.

I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).

To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.

On June 14 2010 14:24 metaldragon wrote:
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it."

I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!?

This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion.

Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.

On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote:
Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.

However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).

Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.

On June 14 2010 14:56 metaldragon wrote:



1a syndrome at its finest!

Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND!

Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier.

I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP!

Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO.