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On July 03 2010 11:16 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote:
I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule. WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out. terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false
WTF do you speak english?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
That's not why MULEs help the economy, or at least not most of it. They mine so much faster than SCVs, and they can mine over SCVs. Of course, Protoss gets full saturation faster and whether that is better or worse is still unknown. The numbers just don't exist right now.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 03 2010 11:21 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:16 trucejl wrote:On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote:
I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule. WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out. terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false WTF do you speak english? Sorry, couldn't resist. That's not why MULEs help the economy, or at least not most of it. They mine so much faster than SCVs, and they can mine over SCVs. Of course, Protoss gets full saturation faster and whether that is better or worse is still unknown. The numbers just don't exist right now.
i give up ur helpless......
User was temp banned for this post.
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On July 03 2010 11:44 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:21 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 11:16 trucejl wrote:On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote:
I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule. WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out. terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false WTF do you speak english? Sorry, couldn't resist. That's not why MULEs help the economy, or at least not most of it. They mine so much faster than SCVs, and they can mine over SCVs. Of course, Protoss gets full saturation faster and whether that is better or worse is still unknown. The numbers just don't exist right now. i give up ur helpless......
What about that is wrong? And if it is, please enlighten me, oh great trucejl.
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@trucejl
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss?
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On July 03 2010 23:29 AncienTs wrote:
@trucejl
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss?
umm when mules come out at 14-16, toss will have chrono boost twice which is about a 2 worker lead. ur gunna tell me 2 workers gives u a significant advantage over 1 mule?
ppl use reaper bunker mostly on early expansions. if a lot of ppl r using them on ur main then im just playing diff ppl. u dont always have to catch the proxy rax, if u sent an early one out n see nothing in their base, then u know they proxy somewhere. c how that works?
there were complains about those units bc ppl suggested those as solutions to emp n failed. stalkers n sentry r horrible against ghost so if they have 2 ghost half of ur army is horrible. assuming u go max half zealot. 4 gate is meant to push into ur opponents base n do dmg, NOT make a concave in the open. y would the terran have a unit lapse if they dont push out until they can deal with a similar size gateway army.
where did i say every game i play i sent out a 6-7 probe to scout? u seriously need to stop selective reading. im saying it more effective than just going straight up 10 gate if u suspect a early proxy. if u scout n c proxy, by all mean throw down that 10 gate. if not u can go a more econ build with 12-13 gate. it gives u flexibility that going 10 gate every time doesnt. i dont even know y u would be so worry about something that happens maybe 1 in 10 games. u should worry more about the other 9 games.
just to remind u, READ. dont just go off on a tangent on something i never said
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On July 03 2010 06:40 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
Yes, I am making this argument. Call it ridiculous without any backing information all you want, getting a ghost out in time for an early push (the Brat_OK build) is the extremely effective timing, and only timing I believe could be considered imbalanced. Well if you're going to concede this point, then I don't see where the larger disagreement is. Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
Templar are a natural transition later on for toss, because you should already have massed a bunch of gateways anyway. I fail to see how not having an extra sentry or stalker here or there would impact the game incredibly past the opening minutes.
Here's where you lose me. Templar aren't exactly a natural transition from anything. Assuming that the toss has the twilight council up (definitely not guaranteed), templar tech requires another 150/200 for the templar archives, a further 200/200 for storm, and, optimally, another 150/150 for the energy upgrade. How is that an easy transition? That's 400 gas before one templar has even been built. Yes, templar are produced out of warpgages, but it's not as if ghosts are produced out of some weird, unnatural building. How many terrans aren't going to have at least one rax with a tech lab? Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
To counter the argument about this timing imbalance, high templar take longer BUT ghosts also take a looong time to build. It hurts terran's overall macro production, but you do this in exchange for a spell that has a powerful timing window. This is where I throw out the rhetorical "so?" Ghosts take 40 seconds to produce. By comparison, marines take 25 seconds, and marauders take 30 seconds. So what does a terran get when he invests the extra 15 seconds into making a ghost as opposed to a marine? Something pretty damned good: a unit with approximately twice the hitpoints, ~1.2x - 2x the damage (depending upon whether the target's armor is light), and an instant-cast, area of effect ability that effectively cuts protoss hp by 30-50% (depending upon the unit) and depletes the mana of every protoss unit hit. Are we really going to make a big deal out of this extra 15 seconds in lost macro time per ghost created? I didn't think so. Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
With this kind of investment, you could have a tank with seige out or early air for harass. This is my favorite part of your post: your argument that ghosts are a big investment because a terran could have an early tank instead. Guess what? I bet you that every protoss player out there would prefer that the terran get the early tank as opposed to the early ghost! An early tank is easy to deal with. An early ghost is not. Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
Unless terran has good control and timing, toss can fairly easily run away from an emp and regenerate shields. It's a strong spell, but needs to be used well and carefully planned in order to work. This running away thing that everyone keeps talking about doesn't work as well some would like to believe. In fact, running away is almost impossible in early game encounters because the terran doesn't even need to lead with his ghosts before engaging. The terran can bait the protoss player into engagement, EMP, and then stim. At that point, it's too late. The protoss won't get very far without heavy losses. Even assuming that I am able to run my troops away, it takes the better part of a minute for the shields to recharge. What exactly do you people think that the terran is going to do during that time? There's not a protoss player out there who has not slipped up with troop control against an early game ghost/bio force and subsequently gotten his face roflstomped by EMP and stimmed marines/marauders. Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that the early ghost with EMP is unbeatable per se, but it certainly creates a very difficult and unforgiving dynamic for protoss players.
I'm not really sure why you've decided to pick apart the little pieces here, other than to just say "i'm right and you're wrong". I didn't say that I think EMP is imbalanced, unlike what your post implies. I'm also still not convinced that EMP or ghosts should be changed. I play random, and as a toss find that facing terran bio is usually easier than dealing with mech or harass-oriented play.
all toss has to do is have good unit control; imho, toss can easily contian terran early game if he's teching ghosts, until terran gets a unit composition to push out in the early-mid game. if toss holds out for awhile, his macro and tech can usually be used to swing the battle into his favor. a terran infantry army, even with ghosts, is easily countered by toss tech. true, it's not always easy to get there, but ghosts aren't a perfect unit counter to everything, as you seem to be suggesting
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pretty sure storms can kill ghosts too along with the marine around him. people say emp is OP cuz it takes away shields. shields are only half the protoss health the actual units gotta deal the rest of the damage. storms KILL units not just take away half health. the only time feedback is really necessary is when ghosts are outside of the mm ball and in that case they're easy to feedback anyways. dunno what the whole emp is OP thing is about. without emp terran can't fight protoss when going bio cuz collosus and HTs absolutely stomp bio with just a tiny handful of them. and now that mechs nerfed bio seems the only decent option in TvP.
yall protoss just need to learn how to cast storm properly.
it's all about who outplays the other. whoever is manageing to pay attention first and cast their spell better will win.
no imbalance
just whoever is better will win like how any game should be.
ghosts and HTs should no be changed at all.
tho i think mech should be refitted to handle TvP better cuz bio vs protoss seems weird to me.
random player so i aint biased.
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On July 04 2010 01:35 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 23:29 AncienTs wrote:
@trucejl
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss? umm when mules come out at 14-16, toss will have chrono boost twice which is about a 2 worker lead. ur gunna tell me 2 workers gives u a significant advantage over 1 mule? ppl use reaper bunker mostly on early expansions. if a lot of ppl r using them on ur main then im just playing diff ppl. u dont always have to catch the proxy rax, if u sent an early one out n see nothing in their base, then u know they proxy somewhere. c how that works? there were complains about those units bc ppl suggested those as solutions to emp n failed. stalkers n sentry r horrible against ghost so if they have 2 ghost half of ur army is horrible. assuming u go max half zealot. 4 gate is meant to push into ur opponents base n do dmg, NOT make a concave in the open. y would the terran have a unit lapse if they dont push out until they can deal with a similar size gateway army. where did i say every game i play i sent out a 6-7 probe to scout? u seriously need to stop selective reading. im saying it more effective than just going straight up 10 gate if u suspect a early proxy. if u scout n c proxy, by all mean throw down that 10 gate. if not u can go a more econ build with 12-13 gate. it gives u flexibility that going 10 gate every time doesnt. i dont even know y u would be so worry about something that happens maybe 1 in 10 games. u should worry more about the other 9 games. just to remind u, READ. dont just go off on a tangent on something i never said
@trucejl the more you write the more i think you don't actually play protoss but just theorize about it. if you actually play the race you'd know that in order to catch an early proxy you'd need to send out a probe around 6 or 7 at the latest, and this is surefire on maps with only 2 starting locations! stop repeating yourself i know 12-13 is an econ build.
don't writing bullshit about pushing into a terran's main with a 4gate without adv tech (I think you're confusing PvT with PvZ bro)
and why don't you READ the previous posts on this thread, a fair number of them discussed the prospects of using early protoss advanced tech to deal with the incoming ghost/bioball. you mention nothing about tech or micro-technique when engaging the terran. all you are writing is bullshit.
again stop with the circular reasoning and read more... you're talking about "dealing with a similiar size gateway army", don't assuming the terran bioball is just going to timing rush out and "deal" with protoss 4gate effectively, it's not invincible. you just fell into the category of every asshat that was complaining about EMP without offering anything of substance when you said "stalkers and sentries are horrible against ghost"
and stop writing bullshit about how terran only goes reaper 1 out of 10 games, where are you getting these numbers? is it from your own experience as a protoss player?
peace and love
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On July 04 2010 01:35 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 23:29 AncienTs wrote:
@trucejl
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss? umm when mules come out at 14-16, toss will have chrono boost twice which is about a 2 worker lead. ur gunna tell me 2 workers gives u a significant advantage over 1 mule? ppl use reaper bunker mostly on early expansions. if a lot of ppl r using them on ur main then im just playing diff ppl. u dont always have to catch the proxy rax, if u sent an early one out n see nothing in their base, then u know they proxy somewhere. c how that works? there were complains about those units bc ppl suggested those as solutions to emp n failed. stalkers n sentry r horrible against ghost so if they have 2 ghost half of ur army is horrible. assuming u go max half zealot. 4 gate is meant to push into ur opponents base n do dmg, NOT make a concave in the open. y would the terran have a unit lapse if they dont push out until they can deal with a similar size gateway army. where did i say every game i play i sent out a 6-7 probe to scout? u seriously need to stop selective reading. im saying it more effective than just going straight up 10 gate if u suspect a early proxy. if u scout n c proxy, by all mean throw down that 10 gate. if not u can go a more econ build with 12-13 gate. it gives u flexibility that going 10 gate every time doesnt. i dont even know y u would be so worry about something that happens maybe 1 in 10 games. u should worry more about the other 9 games. just to remind u, READ. dont just go off on a tangent on something i never said
Personally, I reaper about 1 in 1000 games. Protoss is more than 2 probes up at first mule because not only have you chronoboosted, the terran has had to take time to tech. When you say, "im just playing diff ppl," I'm inclined to agree.
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@Ancient I think it's pretty obvious what he meant by the stalkers and sentries' afirmation. With an EMP on them, both go to 50% of their total health, and sentries become totally useless as their main utility, since the patch when their damage was hugely nerfed, are their spells. So an EMP on top of those 2 units makes them lose more than 50% of their utility. In my opinion, that qualifies as horrible.
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A lot of people are comparing the effectiveness of EMP vs Psi Storm, but I don't think it was ever intended for these two spells to fit the same role. Both spells have their strengths and weaknesses (example, EMP can't kill, but is instant cast, but storm can kill, but is a DoT) which make them fit into different roles.
When comparing EMP in SC2 to that of SC:BW, it seems that SC:BW's is more powerful, as it removes ALL shield, while everything else about it remains the same afaik (the radius might be bigger in SC:BW? I have no idea) but I never saw anyone complaining about EMP in SC:BW, so is the real problem the ability to get it so quickly rather than the actual effects of the spell itself?
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On July 04 2010 07:40 Najda wrote:
so is the real problem the ability to get it so quickly rather than the actual effects of the spell itself?
This is one of concern that most protoss have. I really find the TvP mu to be directed by the terran he can either get some reapers, don't need to be that fast as 8-9 rax but in a standard eco build and maintain map control while transitionning, you can't really get out of your base when there are 2-3 reapers ready to get rid of all your probes while you hit the terran wall even if you have a stalker to defend you need atleast 8 hit to kill those 2 reapers. Or the terran can let the map control to the protoss while getting 1-2 fast ghosts in a bioball and defend their ramp.
In that case yes the terran cannot get out of his ramp because of the spreaded out sentry that can FF the ramp but the protoss can't try to get on that ramp or he'll get severely punish ed by the EMP, with good use of some medivac with 8 marines you can force the protoss to either lose all probe and allin counter trying to getover the ramp and overrun your defenses but with bunkered marines and some EMP the terran can be safe (just need a viking if the P get range uprgraded collossus). A medivac full of marines can take out a turn of 4 gateway unit so the P will need to get some forces back from the front and lose map control or commit his probes to fight to the death.
A protoss composition that are good at handling bioghost ball as zealot, sentries, collossus really lack in mobility early-mid game with no blinkstalker/phenix a medivac of marines will screw the P gameplan and if the P does any other kind of stalker/sentry/immortal mix a direct fight of bioghost will have the upperhand if the T doesn't overcommit to stim himself to death if he doesn't have medivacs yet or running into choke with sentry ready to FF.
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On July 04 2010 09:07 Iblis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2010 07:40 Najda wrote:
so is the real problem the ability to get it so quickly rather than the actual effects of the spell itself? This is one of concern that most protoss have. I really find the TvP mu to be directed by the terran he can either get some reapers, don't need to be that fast as 8-9 rax but in a standard eco build and maintain map control while transitionning, you can't really get out of your base when there are 2-3 reapers ready to get rid of all your probes while you hit the terran wall even if you have a stalker to defend you need atleast 8 hit to kill those 2 reapers. Or the terran can let the map control to the protoss while getting 1-2 fast ghosts in a bioball and defend their ramp. In that case yes the terran cannot get out of his ramp because of the spreaded out sentry that can FF the ramp but the protoss can't try to get on that ramp or he'll get severely punish ed by the EMP, with good use of some medivac with 8 marines you can force the protoss to either lose all probe and allin counter trying to getover the ramp and overrun your defenses but with bunkered marines and some EMP the terran can be safe (just need a viking if the P get range uprgraded collossus). A medivac full of marines can take out a turn of 4 gateway unit so the P will need to get some forces back from the front and lose map control or commit his probes to fight to the death. A protoss composition that are good at handling bioghost ball as zealot, sentries, collossus really lack in mobility early-mid game with no blinkstalker/phenix a medivac of marines will screw the P gameplan and if the P does any other kind of stalker/sentry/immortal mix a direct fight of bioghost will have the upperhand if the T doesn't overcommit to stim himself to death if he doesn't have medivacs yet or running into choke with sentry ready to FF.
If Protoss has map control, why not just expand then if the Terran is contained at his base?
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You MUST expand as soon as you have contained the T but it doesn't translate directly in giving an advantage to the Protoss just as the expand become profitable the harassing medivac should be in action and in this case the protoss will be forced to get back all his troop to be able to cover his main and natural.
The T can then expand and get better map positionning so he will not be FF-choked anymore, and get a fight without being at a disavantage. At this point I really find the healing ability of the medivac really decisive. The P should not have that many collossus and without templars to feedback them the bioball gets really resillient. You'd need shitloads of Zealot to soak up the damage of the bioball after getting EMPed and enough collossus to burn down those MM quicly enough not to get overrun.
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On July 04 2010 02:35 Duelist wrote:
@Ancient I think it's pretty obvious what he meant by the stalkers and sentries' afirmation. With an EMP on them, both go to 50% of their total health, and sentries become totally useless as their main utility, since the patch when their damage was hugely nerfed, are their spells. So an EMP on top of those 2 units makes them lose more than 50% of their utility. In my opinion, that qualifies as horrible.
I'm slightly insulted by these petitio principii arguments. Couldn't you guys have thought a bit further and analyzed the scenario before committing to this ridiculous conclusion? What qualifies an EMP hitting a stalker and sentry as horrible?
Oh wait, just because they lose their shields and the sentry, its mana? Is that all you guys wanted to say? Or would it be better to have the emp hit an immortal and a high templar?
Having an emp hit ANY protoss unit is nothing to celebrate over, so according to your logic the protoss should have made an all zealot army so 3 zealots can take 150 damage in shield?
Let's look at some numbers: A ghost is a risky investment at only 100hp, and costing 150/150. A sentry and stalker costs only 25 minerals more, having a combined hp of 120 deshielded. The EMP radius is small, so I agree a poorly placed protoss ball will take a lot of flak. But assuming a decent protoss positioning in which a stalker, a sentry, and maybe another t1 unit gets EMP'ed, it's still not extremely unfavorable for the protoss!
What about 10 stalkers focus firing a ghost, does that make the ghost a horrible investment? In my opinion, saying stalker and sentry is horrible against ghost emp is like saying hydra ling was bad against psi storm in BW -- yeah its never great to get hit by psi storm but hydra ling still can get the job done.
peace and love
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wow.. this guy cant be serious
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote:
people say emp is OP cuz it takes away shields. shields are only half the protoss health the actual units gotta deal the rest of the damage. storms KILL units not just take away half health
storm does damage over time.. 80dmg over 4 secs?
any decent terran with average reflexes would move it 0-2 secs (2 MAX if theyre decent) after being stormed.
that means what only 10-40 dmg
lets compare it with emp now, EMP does 100 dmg to shields and takes away energy WHICH is a huge factor, rendering casters useless..
100 damage to protoss shields is like health anyway so your argument is flawed saying that storm KILLS and EMP doesnt wtf? EMP killing off shields is still damage..
unless they retreat to recharge shields - terran is at a huge advantage here if protoss retreats, having map control and picking off units with marauder slow
also note that emp is instant and cant be dodged (well i think it DOES have a projectile but its so fukn fast u cant dodge it) but the main point is that its also instant while storm is NOT
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote:
without emp terran can't fight protoss when going bio cuz collosus and HTs absolutely stomp bio with just a tiny handful of them. and now that mechs nerfed bio seems the only decent option in TvP.
of course colossus and HTs are going to stomp bio, look how further in the tech tree it is to get colossi and HT (with necessary upgrades: storm, amulet, thermal lances)
oh wait did you want the game to be mass tier1 battles?
MECH is still definitely viable wtf.. please remember tanks dont overkill which is the main reason why tanks are so good..
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote:
yall protoss just need to learn how to cast storm properly.
it's all about who outplays the other. whoever is manageing to pay attention first and cast their spell better will win.
no imbalance
just whoever is better will win like how any game should be.
thats right guys, there is no imbalance, its perfect!
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote:
ghosts and HTs should no be changed at all.
tho i think mech should be refitted to handle TvP better cuz bio vs protoss seems weird to me.
random player so i aint biased.
sigh
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EPT
