Intro: From diamond random player to Terran players.The reason why EMP is considered OP and is not comparable to Storm. 1)Considering TvP in SC1, SVs had big KILL ME sign on its back because it is an air unit among all other Terran ground mech army. 2)Ghosts blend in really well with MM ball. Especially when couple Thors are shadowing over Terran Bionic army. They are even better, because they can cloak. 3)Feedback range < Snipe range, EMP range > Feedback range. 4)People might say that HT storm harassment is really good. Well, take that as equivalent to Ravens droppping turrets on mineral line.
Real stuff: Now, in my opinion, as random player, NOTHING is OP in Starcraft 2 at this stage. Everything is well-balanced to certain point, well maybe Archons are too weak. So here I go. Considering the diversity of Terran army when fighting Protoss, my opponents did not have diverse unit composition. almost all of his units were Zealots, sentries, and High Templars, but seldom Void Rays, which they never really mass once I get my Vikings out.
It almost seemed that Protoss players were afraid to getlots of Colossi or Void Rays just because I have this massable air unit: Vikings.
My strategy as Protoss fighting Terrans is this: 1)Hyper-agressiveness - as soon as you get your first Immortal out, assuming that you have some Zealots , Stalkers and a couple Sentries, just go for it. I usually skip observers.
2)Forcefield - with some practice with FF, you will be playing early games like a pro. Just block off the ramp whenever your opponent wants to push out. But make sure you let safe amount of his army come down before casting FF. While doing this, you can prepare for an all-in attack, or an expansion(I prefer expansion).
3)Pheonix - Probably the best new unit for Protoss. These fighters are dangerous assassins and a handy anti-air. Believe it or not, they beat vikings in 1 v 1, just slightly. Did you ever come to notice that these guys can pick up tanks, and most importantly: GHOSTS?? Get about 5-7 Pheonixes and they should snipe off Ghosts in 2 shots. Ghosts before the battle, Tanks and Pheonixes during the battle. Pheonixes are capable of constant eco-harass, regardless of how many Missile Turrets are in place. Just get a good number of them and run by and snipe off one or two SCVs before one's shield goes off. 10 seconds later, you're ready to go again.
4)Void Rays - If you are getting Void Rays, NEVER forget to get their charge speed upgrade from the Fleet Beacon.About 3 of these and a good composition of Stalkers and Pheonixes can handle Vikings quite nicely.
5)Mother ship - Dicy battle about to go off, where you might loose all your army if that MMM ball can micro away from you? Vortex and send all of your Zealots in with it, then surround with your ranged units. When MMM ball size gets too out of hand, you will be having a difficult time. Of course, this suggestion sounds like BS right? This only works in Wide open space, so, yes it is kind of BS.
If feedback with its longer range than graviton beam has trouble with targeting ghosts in the middle of the bio ball, what makes you think investing in phoenixes is a good idea? You have to invest in a stargate, thereby slowing down getting charge or blink and HT.
All i got from this post was how you state that EMP is much better than any protoss counters, its basically uncounter-able (points 1-4).
ya im gonna have to agree with the above, this was more of a "Yea, if the EMP goes off you are pretty much screwed if your units aren't spread out really well"
If you suicide your phoenix in you WILL NOT come out ahead. They cost quite a bit of resources, if they aren't harassing they aren't worth their weight. Its also really hard to snipe ghosts with phoenix.
The mothership is really, really bad. I don't even consider that an option.
wtf @ point #2? Ok first, no one gets cloak on ghosts until late game, that gas is not worth it at all. 2 ghosts with claok or 3 ghosts? uhhh durppp 3 ghosts.
also WTF who gets thors playing bio against toss?
i'm sorry but from that point alone it is clear you are not playing against any kind of serious opponents
Point #2 is mainly about the fact that ghosts blend very well into an bio ball. You cannot reliably select them at all for single target feedbacks. It's actually very hard, and near impossible with medivacs on top. Also, the fact that EMP is aoe, means it out range feedback by a fair margin, so in any real sense, if you try to feedback ghosts, your HT is OOM first.
The cloak is an added bonus, not many ppl use it, and that's because you DON'T need it. Protoss never stops a ghost from EMPing when he wants to, so why bother getting cloak? It's handy for probe harass.. but that again, is the added bonus that you can have, if you want to research cloak.
HT are pretty useless without psi storm. Ghosts are useful as-is. At a tier and cost/time that is much better than HT.
I play terran so 1) Being hyper-aggressive can work if its unscouted; if I see my protoss opponent going for 4gate aggressive push type play I just go up to 4 or 5 rax and can stay very safe.
2) EMP'd sentries can't use FF; best way to use sentries against ghosts is too pop the shield before you get within EMP range.
3)An EMP'd Phoenix can't lift making it a complete waste.
4)Marines eat EMP'd void rays, especially with stim.
5) I don't even know what to say.
Edit: Will add that the one thing that gives me a lot of trouble with ghost/marine openings is an extremely Zealot heavy 4gate timing push. Even with the combat shield the zealots just tear through the marines.
Maybe I'm biased as a Terran player, but I feel that a good storm is more devastating than an EMP. When I'm playing anything with a significant bio composition, I'm thinking "how to deal with storm", not "how they're going to deal with my EMP". EMPing templars stopped being effective as my opponents got smarter and began to split their high templars.
If the opponent lands a good EMP on you and you land a solid storm on some bio, I really don't think you're in that much trouble.
Against EMP, you have 2 strategies that are NOT mutually exclusive (aka, you can and should do both). The first strategy is to avoid it. There are several ways to do this. Several that were mentioned already are Feedback, or try to focus fire the ghosts.
The other strategy that many people seem forget is to invalidate the EMPs. EMP is only dangerous if it effectively weakens your units just before/during a battle. Since shields regenerate so ridiculously fast in SC2, all you really have to do after an EMP is delay the battle and it will effectively be rendered useless. If your opponent EMPs you, retreat. If you know he's going Ghosts, maybe keep a Sentry or 2 separate from your army just to throw down FFs and run away.
You could take a page from Zerg's book and split your army up, that way, when he EMPs the hell out of what he thinks is all of your forces, you rush in from the flank with Blink Stalkers and/or Charge Zealots and now your "weakened" units are in the back.
It's been said in pretty much every thread that you can draw out his EMPs and make him waste them either on a small group of units or maybe even some Hallucinations.
There are tons of answers to every problem if people would just THINK about it. This game is so much more than 1a2a3a'ing your army against your opponent's. Think of the SOURCE of your problems, and think of WHY they are a problem. Don't treat the symptoms, treat the disease.
The only redeeming factor in PvT MU is the majority of terran never make ghosts. I don't know if its because they fail to realize how strong EMP is vs P, or that they feel pity/pride and want an actual challenge.
I like how to suggest to retreat once EMPed.. yeah, try to run with conc shells on your ass. Even an easier win for the T army. Split your army up? Oh hey, you just FF yourself and fight him with half your army at a time, or you failed to form a good concave and get steamrolled. I mean why not just FF your army in half next time and see how well that turns out. Oh, there's usually more than 1 ghost, so there's plenty of EMP ready to cover any spread of forces you want.
If you can think up all this clever way to try to avoid it.. why haven't you thought of the fact that because it is so imba, instant long range aoe that you HAVE to do all these extra things, and still get EMPed in the face.. why not just admit that EMP is imba. Make it drain shields/energy over time like psi storms damage. Then at least ppl can micro their forces out of the EMP.
On June 11 2010 16:26 Sylvr wrote: Against EMP, you have 2 strategies that are NOT mutually exclusive (aka, you can and should do both). The first strategy is to avoid it. There are several ways to do this. Several that were mentioned already are Feedback, or try to focus fire the ghosts.
The other strategy that many people seem forget is to invalidate the EMPs. EMP is only dangerous if it effectively weakens your units just before/during a battle. Since shields regenerate so ridiculously fast in SC2, all you really have to do after an EMP is delay the battle and it will effectively be rendered useless. If your opponent EMPs you, retreat. If you know he's going Ghosts, maybe keep a Sentry or 2 separate from your army just to throw down FFs and run away.
You could take a page from Zerg's book and split your army up, that way, when he EMPs the hell out of what he thinks is all of your forces, you rush in from the flank with Blink Stalkers and/or Charge Zealots and now your "weakened" units are in the back.
It's been said in pretty much every thread that you can draw out his EMPs and make him waste them either on a small group of units or maybe even some Hallucinations.
There are tons of answers to every problem if people would just THINK about it. This game is so much more than 1a2a3a'ing your army against your opponent's. Think of the SOURCE of your problems, and think of WHY they are a problem. Don't treat the symptoms, treat the disease.
It's very hard, almost impossible to simply just retreat. Concussive shells will make that nigh impossible to just bait the EMP and retreat. The long range of tanks also will cause the P to take a few hits even while retreating, and likely get a few kills. Not only that, but good Terrans won't EMP until the battle has actually started to insure maximum effect and will ALWAYS aim for the casters. Additionally, 2-3 ghosts can effectively EMP every caster P has even with a good spread.
It's not impossible to deal with EMP, but I really don't understand why it hasn't been tweaked simply due to how strong it is. Protoss really doesn't have any counter for it as EMP outranges feedback. It also doesn't require being researched, costs the same amount of mana as storm, has no cooldown, and it does an instantaneous 100 damage in its area of effect. Storm requires 200/200/110 research, has 3 second cooldown, does 80 damage at 10 damage per half second, but will only deal the full damage if the Terran is brain dead and sits in the storm for the entire duration.
On June 11 2010 16:34 SilverforceX wrote: I like how to suggest to retreat once EMPed.. yeah, try to run with conc shells on your ass. Even an easier win for the T army.
Don't exaggerate. Conc shells will maybe take out a few Zealots (roughly equal to the number of Marauders he has, likely less since they might not all get an attack off if your reaction time is good) while you run away. It's better than staying and losing your entire army.
Split your army up? Oh hey, you just FF yourself and fight him with half your army at a time, or you failed to form a good concave and get steamrolled. I mean why not just FF your army in half next time and see how well that turns out.
Spreading your army helps you get a BETTER concave, not a worse one. I didn't say to put 2 armies on different sides of the map. EMP radius may look big judging form the animation, but in reality, it's only 2.
Oh, there's usually more than 1 ghost, so there's plenty of EMP ready to cover any spread of forces you want.
All the better. Now you just forced him to use probably ALL of his energy and now running away will be even MORE effective because the next time you engage, he won't have nearly as much energy.
If you can think up all this clever way to try to avoid it.. why haven't you thought of the fact that because it is so imba, instant long range aoe that you HAVE to do all these extra things, and still get EMPed in the face.. why not just admit that EMP is imba. Make it drain shields/energy over time like psi storms damage. Then at least ppl can micro their forces out of the EMP.
Circular logic. "EMP is imba because EMP is imba, so just admit that EMP is imba." That's what I read. Don't measure it up to Psi Storm because they are completely different. First of all, Psi Storm is useful against all 3 races while EMP is pretty much TvP only. Second, Psi Storm is the ONLY offensive aoe spell in SC2 or BW that you CAN run out of. Every other offensive AOE spell is unavoidable once it's cast. Psi Storm is the exception, NOT the baseline.
EMP is supposed to give Terrans an edge against Protoss, and that's exactly what it does. It's only instant-win against 1-dimensional players. Ghosts aren't any easier to use than Sentries or HTs or Infestors, so the argument that the tactic is easier to pull off than the counter is blatantly false.
On June 11 2010 16:26 Sylvr wrote: Against EMP, you have 2 strategies that are NOT mutually exclusive (aka, you can and should do both). The first strategy is to avoid it. There are several ways to do this. Several that were mentioned already are Feedback, or try to focus fire the ghosts.
The other strategy that many people seem forget is to invalidate the EMPs. EMP is only dangerous if it effectively weakens your units just before/during a battle. Since shields regenerate so ridiculously fast in SC2, all you really have to do after an EMP is delay the battle and it will effectively be rendered useless. If your opponent EMPs you, retreat. If you know he's going Ghosts, maybe keep a Sentry or 2 separate from your army just to throw down FFs and run away.
You could take a page from Zerg's book and split your army up, that way, when he EMPs the hell out of what he thinks is all of your forces, you rush in from the flank with Blink Stalkers and/or Charge Zealots and now your "weakened" units are in the back.
It's been said in pretty much every thread that you can draw out his EMPs and make him waste them either on a small group of units or maybe even some Hallucinations.
There are tons of answers to every problem if people would just THINK about it. This game is so much more than 1a2a3a'ing your army against your opponent's. Think of the SOURCE of your problems, and think of WHY they are a problem. Don't treat the symptoms, treat the disease.
It's very hard, almost impossible to simply just retreat. Concussive shells will make that nigh impossible to just bait the EMP and retreat. The long range of tanks also will cause the P to take a few hits even while retreating, and likely get a few kills. Not only that, but good Terrans won't EMP until the battle has actually started to insure maximum effect and will ALWAYS aim for the casters. Additionally, 2-3 ghosts can effectively EMP every caster P has even with a good spread.
It's not impossible to deal with EMP, but I really don't understand why it hasn't been tweaked simply due to how strong it is. Protoss really doesn't have any counter for it as EMP outranges feedback. It also doesn't require being researched, costs the same amount of mana as storm, has no cooldown, and it does an instantaneous 100 damage in its area of effect. Storm requires 200/200/110 research, has 3 second cooldown, does 80 damage at 10 damage per half second, but will only deal the full damage if the Terran is brain dead and sits in the storm for the entire duration.
I hope I covered the Concussive Shot debate with my response to the poster above you. If your opponent has enough Marauders to slow down that much of your army, then you're probably using the wrong unit composition anyway. Hopefully you scouted and got some Collosi, which aren't AS effected by EMP simply because EMPing them, and getting into range to Focus them down are two very different things.
I just hope that someone doesn't pop up and say "Oh, but then he'll just go Viking and roflstomp your collosi." and the discussion will degrade into people naming every possible thing the Terran COULD do against you and assuming that they can do an instantaneous tech switch mid-battle with full upgrades.
A Terran EMPing your casters does indeed hurt. Casters bolster a Protoss army so much that it's really hard NOT to make them. If they're going Ghosts, however, you might be justified to simply make LESS casters, or at least to keep them hidden and in back out of EMP range and only really there to ENABLE your retreat. For instance, keep your Sentries back instead of in the front lines and save your FFs for if/when you need to retreat. Once you're confident that he's blown his EMP load, THEN you can use them in the battle. Same with HTs; a Terran isn't likely to pursue a retreating army if you leave a wall of Storms for him to run through. In the world outside of Starcraft, this is called a Feint. You force your opponent to overextend themselves and/or use their resources to ill effect.
In my opinion (mid to high level diamond random player), EMP is overpowered right now, even though it doesn't show too much as players are not good enough yet.
Unfortunately, Tester in his interview at scforall didn't give a reasoning why he thinks that terran is the strongest race right now and artosis didn't ask him but only stated that this was an intelligent answer ....... (interviewing is more than just asking the prepared questions...), but I assume EMP, PDD and uber range vikings (yes, they are key) are the main reasons.
Almost dividing the opponent's hitpoints by 2 using 2-3 EMP is ridiculously strong and it is really hard to dodge. Unlike SC/BW the EMP works almost immediately which is really bad IMO.
So, I would simply suggest to make an EMP animation like in SC/BW and everything would be fine. In SC/BW you could see some kind of a ripple which allowed you to run away, which is nice and separates the great from the good.
On June 11 2010 18:09 Drazzzt wrote: Almost dividing the opponent's hitpoints by 2 using 2-3 EMP is ridiculously strong and it is really hard to dodge.
A common thing I've noticed about most Q_Q'ing toss (notice the lack of pro) is their complete lack of ability to micro.
Ghosts EMP your face happens instantly. It can be spammed, hold E and click on all his army (if he micro to spread them out). Instant effect, bye bye shields. See casters? EMP them too, instantly!
Now, Psi Storm, you can argue about micro. If you have good micro, storm does like 20 dmg. No contest. EMP is wacked imba vs protoss.
Think of it this way.. what if, storm had 1) instant 50 dmg (not even 100 shields that emp nullifies), and drained all energy. It's available on sentries without requiring research. Would that be balanced? Didn't think so.
Time to obtain Ghost and Sentry: Barracks = 60s Ghost Academy = 70s You can build tech lab while Ghost Academy is building, it only takes 25s. Ghost = 40s
Total = 170s
Gateway = 65s Cybernetics Core = 50s Sentry = 42s
Total = 157s, Only 13s slower than teching to Ghost.
Another point, HT Amulet cost = 150/150, 110s. Moebius = 100/100, 80s. Same effect. Why the huge cost differential?
On June 11 2010 18:09 Drazzzt wrote: Almost dividing the opponent's hitpoints by 2 using 2-3 EMP is ridiculously strong and it is really hard to dodge.
A common thing I've noticed about most Q_Q'ing toss (notice the lack of pro) is their complete lack of ability to micro.
Yeah, this is my point... How could they as EMP comes instantly (as also the previous guy repeated)! That's the reason why I suggested an EMP animation so that it is possible to dodge it (like in SC/BW). The difference to storm is that even though storm is instant as well it takes a while for all the damage to take effect, so that you can move out during storm. EMP is instant to cast and instant regarding its complete efffect.
EMP won't get nerfed until blizzard sees stats showing that games with ghosts have a favorable Terran win ratio while games without ghosts have a 50:50 terran win ratio.
Even giving EMP a casting animation would be a large nerf and might upset the matchup balance.
Most of the recent tournament T v P's have barely any ghosts in play. So, I doubt it's a problem as of now.
A lot of anti-EMP arguments center around this unquestioned assumption that emp will just always land on all your templars. I'm, not trying to be condescending, but really does make me question the level of play these guys are at. Even if it is easier to land an EMP than a feedback (and it is), it doesn't mean you can simply position/micro your templars so that in a given fight, they wont all get emp'ed right away. What a lot of toss do is simply engage their army, with their temps spread out and in the back. Once the battle starts and some EMPs go off, they then move in for the storms. Even if you get a emp or two off on them, once a few storms are up its devastating to a bio ball. Trying to get Feedbacks off (on the ghosts or the medvacs) or simply backing up after getting emped (unless their extremely marauder heavy, chances are they get a lot or two at most with concussive), will improve the above strategy significantly. Look guys, some things are designed to be strong. Like tank fire. If you nerf something to the point where you can walk up to tanklines or say - get all your storms off easily despite him building a 150m/150g counter (that also has to compile energy), you completely screw with the dynamic of the game. What if I suggested that "there really isn'y micro involved in dodging storm, once they get the storm off my army is screwed, so we need to add a cast time to storm to give me and the rest of the bads time to move out of it." Oh and Auto-Turrets just as strong as storm drops? lol?
On June 11 2010 20:51 D3lta wrote: A lot of anti-EMP arguments center around this unquestioned assumption that emp will just always land on all your templars. I'm, not trying to be condescending, but really does make me question the level of play these guys are at. Even if it is easier to land an EMP than a feedback (and it is), it doesn't mean you can simply position/micro your templars so that in a given fight, they wont all get emp'ed right away. What a lot of toss do is simply engage their army, with their temps spread out and in the back. Once the battle starts and some EMPs go off, they then move in for the storms. Even if you get a emp or two off on them, once a few storms are up its devastating to a bio ball. Trying to get Feedbacks off (on the ghosts or the medvacs) or simply backing up after getting emped (unless their extremely marauder heavy, chances are they get a lot or two at most with concussive), will improve the above strategy significantly. Look guys, some things are designed to be strong. Like tank fire. If you nerf something to the point where you can walk up to tanklines or say - get all your storms off easily despite him building a 150m/150g counter (that also has to compile energy), you completely screw with the dynamic of the game. What if I suggested that "there really isn'y micro involved in dodging storm, once they get the storm off my army is screwed, so we need to add a cast time to storm to give me and the rest of the bads time to move out of it." Oh and Auto-Turrets just as strong as storm drops? lol?
Dragging your templars is of course possible and used by better players. And I agree that they are hard to EMP as the ghosts have quite a high target priority and will be destroyed fairly early during a battle. But: I don't think that bio-balls are the best way to play against protoss in the late-game anyways (especially using lots of lots of marines except for playing against carriers.....). Mixing in mech is much better and then the high templar don't have the highest hit'm-priority anyways. Hitting the main army and taking away the valuable shields will be more than enough to gain a large advantage combined with using PDD extensively PLUS if the HT are way behind your main army they won't be able to feedback ravens as efficiently. Finally, you could still balance the game when changing the duration of the EMP animation.
On June 11 2010 20:51 D3lta wrote: A lot of anti-EMP arguments center around this unquestioned assumption that emp will just always land on all your templars. I'm, not trying to be condescending, but really does make me question the level of play these guys are at. Even if it is easier to land an EMP than a feedback (and it is), it doesn't mean you can simply position/micro your templars so that in a given fight, they wont all get emp'ed right away. What a lot of toss do is simply engage their army, with their temps spread out and in the back. Once the battle starts and some EMPs go off, they then move in for the storms. Even if you get a emp or two off on them, once a few storms are up its devastating to a bio ball. Trying to get Feedbacks off (on the ghosts or the medvacs) or simply backing up after getting emped (unless their extremely marauder heavy, chances are they get a lot or two at most with concussive), will improve the above strategy significantly. Look guys, some things are designed to be strong. Like tank fire. If you nerf something to the point where you can walk up to tanklines or say - get all your storms off easily despite him building a 150m/150g counter (that also has to compile energy), you completely screw with the dynamic of the game. What if I suggested that "there really isn'y micro involved in dodging storm, once they get the storm off my army is screwed, so we need to add a cast time to storm to give me and the rest of the bads time to move out of it." Oh and Auto-Turrets just as strong as storm drops? lol?
Dragging your templars is of course possible and used by better players. And I agree that they are hard to EMP as the ghosts have quite a high target priority and will be destroyed fairly early during a battle. But: I don't think that bio-balls are the best way to play against protoss in the late-game anyways (especially using lots of lots of marines except for playing against carriers.....). Mixing in mech is much better and then the high templar don't have the highest hit'm-priority anyways. Hitting the main army and taking away the valuable shields will be more than enough to gain a large advantage combined with using PDD extensively PLUS if the HT are way behind your main army they won't be able to feedback ravens as efficiently. Finally, you could still balance the game when changing the duration of the EMP animation.
people claim that mech is better than bio but howcome i've never seen pure ghost/mech in high level tvp ? maybe because u will get abused/outexpoed so f'kn hard u will always be behind decent protoss.
On June 11 2010 20:51 D3lta wrote: What if I suggested that "there really isn'y micro involved in dodging storm, once they get the storm off my army is screwed, so we need to add a cast time to storm to give me and the rest of the bads time to move out of it." Oh and Auto-Turrets just as strong as storm drops? lol?
You do know that in fact storm as it is, gives you plenty of time to MOVE OUT of it and receive little damage, like 20 only for the first tic. It does its total damage over 4 seconds. EMP is instantaneous and does NOT allow for the opponent to micro out of the AoE. This is one of the major reason why its imba.
Turret drop is a very good harass tool. Low energy cost means u can spam a few and then run away. All you expended was energy. And with its long range, a lot of workers will die b4 they can be moved out of range. A storm drop is also great. You do need a few templars to cover a lot of workers. The fact that ravens can even harass so good along with the uber PDD and detection just shows how good the unit is.
But similar to ghosts, very few Terran ever use these units. I don't know why this is the case, it can't be that most T are terrible or ignorant.. maybe.. just maybe, they don't actually need to use these units and still do ok. I mean, just traditional bio ball with a few tanks is hard enough to defeat.
your both kinda right about ghost-mech IMO. Generally Mid-Game/ "early" late-game if you will, Bio mobility is simply too valuable to give up in favor of tank damage (especially since the nerf). The only time this may not be true is mass chargelot vs hellions, but for whatever reason, toss usually doesn't go big chargelot (even though its extremely effective vs emp bio-ball and tanks imo). If you watch all the import tourney matches top T play, it will confirm this. However really the later the game gets, the more expos T manages to establish ect, mech/starport does start seem like the more muscular 200/200 army to transition into. But in my experience, most games don't go to this late game 200/200 ghost-mech phase, unless both players are being unusually passive, or the toss does several fail attacks vs tank lines rather than exploiting map control/imobility of a straight meching T.
On June 11 2010 20:51 D3lta wrote: What if I suggested that "there really isn'y micro involved in dodging storm, once they get the storm off my army is screwed, so we need to add a cast time to storm to give me and the rest of the bads time to move out of it." Oh and Auto-Turrets just as strong as storm drops? lol?
You do know that in fact storm as it is, gives you plenty of time to MOVE OUT of it and receive little damage, like 20 only for the first tic. It does its total damage over 4 seconds. EMP is instantaneous and does NOT allow for the opponent to micro out of the AoE. This is one of the major reason why its imba.
Turret drop is a very good harass tool. Low energy cost means u can spam a few and then run away. All you expended was energy. And with its long range, a lot of workers will die b4 they can be moved out of range. A storm drop is also great. You do need a few templars to cover a lot of workers. The fact that ravens can even harass so good along with the uber PDD and detection just shows how good the unit is.
But similar to ghosts, very few Terran ever use these units. I don't know why this is the case, it can't be that most T are terrible or ignorant.. maybe.. just maybe, they don't actually need to use these units and still do ok. I mean, just traditional bio ball with a few tanks is hard enough to defeat.
Alright man, you try moving you army out of storms in the middle of big concave vs concave fight, and let me know how that 20 damg thing worked for you. I understand it could be viable to raven harass (although thats alot of wasted PDD energy IMO). But 2 temps in a warp pris will destroy all of your workers in a few seconds. Where as a a raven will most likely just scare the drones of the mineral line. Having a cannon or turret/spine crawler would also be a lot less effective at preventing storm drop than raven harass. edit: part of the reason terran dont go ghost/raven is because of the huge cost in gas 150 per ghost 200 per raven. medvacs take 100 and tanks take 125 as is, so you generally pick one of two untell very late in the game
A cannon would own templars. They are so weak, in fact, a lot weaker than an auto-turret. But that's besides the point, both are effective harass. And i did mention how good PDD is already.. it's just that ravens CAN harass as an option, it makes them a great unit even if its rarely used.
You know, a big concave fight etc.. you get ppl saying "when u get EMP, retreat!! let the shields regen", it's a lot worse than moving out of a storm, because all terran units are ranged (unlike zealots who if retreating, are going to die), they can reform a lot easier. Marines/marauders are quite small also, pathfinding and concave reforms are quite efficient. Stim just makes them evade storm a lot easier.
But let's not forget the major point. Storm is from HT that is very slow moving and stands out of the crowd, requiers research, higher tier, much more expensive in cost and time to reach. But you CAN evade it easily. EMP is ready to go at a low tier, from a very mobile unit that blends very well into a bio ball.. but you CAN'T evade it at all. There's no room for micro to minimize its impact, this is why its so imba.
Why can't EMP be "Removes 80 shields and 200 energy over 4 seconds", and have a shorter range? 10 + 2 aoe is retarded. It should be 7 range, with the 2 aoe range giving it a reach of 9 that is on par with other caster abilities. At least allow ppl to micro out of the field.
My instincts on this say that EMP will be redesigned (or slightly nerfed) in the future as more Terran learn to put ghosts into their builds and totally dominate protoss MU. It hasn't happened because its rarely used.
In my experience (I play random, which means I know the terran side of the equation but I don't have as much practice with toss as a pure toss player) chargealots are the way to go.
Very early game, Toss has the advantage. Zealots chew up marines and mauraders not behind a wall, and stalkers can scout an enemy's choke to see if they are massing an army up or doing something fishy (if they don't have a big army).
Early game terran gets the advantage when concussive shells come up. If he pushes you at this point you have 2 options - you can A) not wall off, fall back into your base and surround him wtih zealots or B) you can forcefield your ramp or his ramp and try to cut his army up. Most terran players won't attack at this point because if they get trapped by FF they are way behind.
Mid game is where I see alot of toss players going into robo. They do this for the observer (smart) and for the immortals/collossi (silly). Immortals do well but they are huge and only have range 5. This means they don't come to bear often enough and require good micro to target mauaraders, and get kited. I really think that if immortals were immune to concussive shot then they would be viable but as it stands now, not so much. Collossi tear MM apart with thermal lance, but by the time you have both collossi AND thermal lance, the terran has had enough time to swap a reactored starport and bring out vikings that will pick off colloxen.
What I usually do is just go into mass zealots with charge. Boost the charge, get warp gates out and get map control. This is critical. Even eating EMP in the face, chargealots will still eat MM alive, IF you catch the terran player with a flank. This is critical. If you throw chargealots head on into a terran army, you will lose. If you cap those watchtowers, get a scout out and spread your zealots into 2 or 3 balls strategically, you can hit the terran player as he's moving towards your base. Even with a full out EMP you'll still win. Even with tanks set up you'll still win. Hellions are the only real risk but you just have to try and nullify them by sniping with stalkers.
Normally you can get map control this way - a terran army can't move out on the ground against you with mass charagelots. With blink you can stifly banshee and medivac harass. Typically the terran will just turtle and expo, since you can't break a choke with zealots At this point I just hide some void ray tech, boost void rays out and GG him by blowing his choke and moving my ground army in as support against marines. Remember that if he expos and you're massing voids, you have a great timing window to push him. You can alternativly use templar if you see lots of marines or vikings.
So in short, I've found that if a terran goes heavy in EMP, don't even try to stop it. You can't feedback it reliably or spread out reliably. Just counter with storms to the face and mass zealots -honestly zealots eat terran face.
Remember to merge your templar if they get hit with EMP too. Archons can tank very well for a toss army - they're untyped and marauders only do their base damage to them.
There is a lot of extreme narrow-mindedness in this thread. Let's look at the abilities more in depth.
Psy Storm: Is effective against all three races to an equal degree Can do damage to any unit in the game. Can actually kill a unit. Can be used to to block off area to force an opponent to retreat or enable your own retreat. can be cast immediately upon spawn once upgraded on a unit that can spawn anywhere there is power. Effect persists for 4 seconds - can be microed out of to minimize damage
EMP: Damages the shields of Protoss units Can only effect the casters of Zerg and Terran Can never actually kill a unit Can't be used upon the spawn of the unit even with upgrades Effect is instantaneous.
I'm sure there is more that can be added to these lists as well.
Psi Storm is a lot more versatile of a spell and you often trade power for versatility.
Personally, I don't think EMP needs a nerf, when I play TvP and get Ghosts I don't feel like I auto-win just because I built the unit no matter what else I have in my composition (MMM+Ghost or Ghost-mech for example). If the spell is truly that OP then I humbly request you show me a replay where the Terran player builds ONLY Ghosts and wins no matter what his opponent does.
On June 11 2010 21:42 SilverforceX wrote: A cannon would own templars. They are so weak, in fact, a lot weaker than an auto-turret. But that's besides the point, both are effective harass. And i did mention how good PDD is already.. it's just that ravens CAN harass as an option, it makes them a great unit even if its rarely used.
You know, a big concave fight etc.. you get ppl saying "when u get EMP, retreat!! let the shields regen", it's a lot worse than moving out of a storm, because all terran units are ranged (unlike zealots who if retreating, are going to die), they can reform a lot easier. Marines/marauders are quite small also, pathfinding and concave reforms are quite efficient. Stim just makes them evade storm a lot easier.
But let's not forget the major point. Storm is from HT that is very slow moving and stands out of the crowd, requiers research, higher tier, much more expensive in cost and time to reach. But you CAN evade it easily. EMP is ready to go at a low tier, from a very mobile unit that blends very well into a bio ball.. but you CAN'T evade it at all. There's no room for micro to minimize its impact, this is why its so imba.
Why can't EMP be "Removes 80 shields and 200 energy over 4 seconds", and have a shorter range? 10 + 2 aoe is retarded. It should be 7 range, with the 2 aoe range giving it a reach of 9 that is on par with other caster abilities. At least allow ppl to micro out of the field.
My instincts on this say that EMP will be redesigned (or slightly nerfed) in the future as more Terran learn to put ghosts into their builds and totally dominate protoss MU. It hasn't happened because its rarely used.
First of all the reason cannons and other static defense are worse against templars is because can still get storms off even if the templar are going to die (which i think would only be the case if there were a good 3 cannons at least). Those stroms are going to very quickly kill drones,compared to auto turrets, which would get pelted by cannons as they single fire on one worker at a time. I really dont see what "point" ravens being able to harass proves. So can Hellions and Thors. My point was that templar drops are clearly more inherently dangerous than auto-turrets. As for the whole "move out of storm" statement. Yes you obviously move out of the storm when you can. The point is this is a huge problem for the T army. You ether leave half your army to sit and fight the entire toss army, sit the storm, or try to run your entire army back. Toss are faster than Terran, as everyone should be aware. You can stim your marines that just got blasted for a minimum of 20 damage (and were probably on the tail end of the first stim), but this many times, leads to death of those said marines. If and when you stim to run, if the toss is persistent, he can catch you. There's a very good change that he will be looking to counter attack anyway, if you just got stormed badly. Or perhaps, he'll wait tell all his shields recharge from the emp the T dropped. Also because toss are faster, it is in no way worse to back off from a army once your emped, than to back from a storm. My point is that storm is unquestionably really good whether you micro or not, just as emp is. you can micro to minimize storm damage, just as you can do micro tricks to minimize emp. But its just stupid to argue you can get anywhere near negating ether of these abilities with micro. IMO that does not make ether storm or EMP overpowered, simply powerful. My instinct is that players tend to whine. Any nothing comes of it unless to proves to dampen competitive play. Which I seriously doubt this will. If you look at sc1, its simply a lot of really strong compositions that take a lot to counter, every game (darkswarm, tank/mine-happy vultures, arbitors ect) The generic match in which a T does not go ghosts currently, is them 3 rax pushing hard from 5:00 marauder harass onward (the equivalent to a T 4 gate push), or them getting some kind of tech build and losing (strelok v huk being the most recent Iv'e seen). Eventually I think it will be apparent that ghosts are the best option vs late game toss, making templars vs ghosts a staple in the mu.
On June 11 2010 22:32 STS17 wrote: There is a lot of extreme narrow-mindedness in this thread.....If the spell is truly that OP then I humbly request you show me a replay where the Terran player builds ONLY Ghosts and wins no matter what his opponent does.
Right, because that is the only thing which proves if an ability is too strong or not *eyesroll* You did so well trying to be logical till you screwed it up with that last sentence.
By your logic if there was a unit which would instantly kill all other units but one it would not be too strong since you cannot build *only* it and win...
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Regarding EMP - the main problem is that feedback does not really counter EMP simply because single target effect vs AOE effect. You will always get off an EMP before the feedback, even if EMP had not the range advantage. IMO they should nerf feedbacks damage (and possibly up the energy cost) and make it an AOE effect in return. That should even the scales somewhat. EMP would still have the higher range, but Protoss tpyically have the scouting advantage due to observers.
On June 11 2010 22:32 STS17 wrote: There is a lot of extreme narrow-mindedness in this thread. Let's look at the abilities more in depth.
Psy Storm: Is effective against all three races to an equal degree Can do damage to any unit in the game. Can actually kill a unit. Can be used to to block off area to force an opponent to retreat or enable your own retreat. can be cast immediately upon spawn once upgraded on a unit that can spawn anywhere there is power. Effect persists for 4 seconds - can be microed out of to minimize damage
EMP: Damages the shields of Protoss units Can only effect the casters of Zerg and Terran Can never actually kill a unit Can't be used upon the spawn of the unit even with upgrades Effect is instantaneous.
I'm sure there is more that can be added to these lists as well.
Psi Storm is a lot more versatile of a spell and you often trade power for versatility.
Personally, I don't think EMP needs a nerf, when I play TvP and get Ghosts I don't feel like I auto-win just because I built the unit no matter what else I have in my composition (MMM+Ghost or Ghost-mech for example). If the spell is truly that OP then I humbly request you show me a replay where the Terran player builds ONLY Ghosts and wins no matter what his opponent does.
Are you serious? like really? What role does PvZ have in this when the question is how to deal with EMP as protoss? You also compare the 2 without regarding cost/research time - which is one of the main points of most protoss players. You made an excellent list to showcase your own points, you just "forgot" all the reasons why protoss players are having such a hard time dealing with this - mainly the non-existant research time on a spell that nullifies 2 units AND 30-50% of the HP of whatever army the protoss player can build; and that is without any way for the protoss to dodge these effects.
I've played random throughout the beta and one of my very first posts was a "EMP and fungal growth needs to be avoidable like storm is" and I'll stand by that. I would love to hear some tournament terrans arguments as to why they don't use the ghost more against protoss.
Fungal growth isn't really that bad. The damage from it is relatively minor. It can be an issue with low hp units, but not more than banelings, siege tanks or colossi.
It can really screw you up when retreating/moving due to its root but so do forcefields.
What about using warp prisms to hide your more valuable units?
Leave a couple high templar on the ground to force his EMP( feedback if he doesn't ), and then drop your units that now have full shields, and maybe use the warp prism to warp in another wave of forces for fast reinforcements.
Seems like a good way to protect high templar and maybe immortals.
Love these "Just spread out!" counterarguments. Because, like the Mothership, your limit is only ever one Ghost.
You can pepper the entire spread-out Protoss army with multiple EMPs even EASIER than we can Psi Storms on your spread-out bio blob. The area of effect is 125% larger ((1.5*1.5)/(1*1)) for crying out loud.
Whatever Protoss can do to counter Terran, is made twice as easy on his side. Pit two equal-skill players in front of each other with large armies and there's no way the Protoss is coming out on top. Its not really balance when the Protoss only course of action at this point is to scrap the ground army completely, mass Void Rays and exploit Terran's weakness to them when they're fully charged. EMP and Void Rays are just fucked up.
I havnt seen this said yet so I'll describe my strategy Against ghosts and emp.
Hallucination.
I'm a diamond league player and I use essentially mind tricks to beat the ghosts. I hallucinate high priotity targets, like the high templars preferably. I keep 2 groups of them. Normally to either side of my army. Just far enough to be out of range of emp. I normally bring these units in closer to the front as well. Normally a smart Terran player Will see me moving temps in as If to storm. He will emp them. Wasting an emp. This is when I bring the real temps forward and storm. Hallucinate makes ff unusable for thr battle practically. But you don't need it to be honest. I havnt actually played a whole lot of Terran games where the opponed went ghost. Lots of mirror matches for some reason. But whenever I did see ghosts. This strategy is killer. And if you need to do this more than once you can even double fake it and put real Templars up front. that Way your opponent may just think that the units are another hallucination. Although I'd imagine good players wouldn't risk that.
Anyways. Just my prefered strat. Plus it's fun to play
Every Toss "solution" to EMP is to make Toss work harder. The truth is, every solution against terran is to have the opposing race (Zerg or Toss) play at a level above Terran. This is not balanced.
FWIW, I'm a (Diamond) Toss AND Terran player. I can't play Zerg to save my life.
I think the perfect solution to the problems of EMP in PvT can be fixed simply by allowing Guardian Shield to absorb an EMP blast, with anything under it being protected. The trade-off for toss is that the GS is destroyed when it gets hit by the EMP (currently, the GS stays active if you cast the spell before the EMP ... this makes no sense to me anyhow). However, Toss will have a workable solution to EMP that does not require any changes that would effect any other matchups.
That would be way to heavy a fix in the direction of a WP protoss. There would be 0 chance to get off an EMP seeing as before any engagement the protoss would just fire up 10 shields and GL trying to get through that.
One EMP would wipe out any GS it contacts with. It would just take a second EMP if you really want to target what's below the GS. But removing the shield is not without its benefit either.
Terran would be forced to actually think and execute for effective EMP play. Right now, it's a dummy "E" button.
On June 12 2010 01:45 whoopadeedoo wrote: Every Toss "solution" to EMP is to make Toss work harder. The truth is, every solution against terran is to have the opposing race (Zerg or Toss) play at a level above Terran. This is not balanced.
FWIW, I'm a (Diamond) Toss AND Terran player. I can't play Zerg to save my life.
So you want what? An anti-emp "lets make the skill cap even lower" button?
I think the perfect solution to the problems of EMP in PvT can be fixed simply by allowing Guardian Shield to absorb an EMP blast, with anything under it being protected. The trade-off for toss is that the GS is destroyed when it gets hit by the EMP (currently, the GS stays active if you cast the spell before the EMP ... this makes no sense to me anyhow). However, Toss will have a workable solution to EMP that does not require any changes that would effect any other matchups.
Oh...
Hallucinate needs to be 50/50 and cheap to cast. The End. Overwhelm T with high priority targets, and hell all the toss player needs to do after making the hallucinations is to 1a them just like the rest of his army, once again preserving toss as the 1a2a3a4a (now just 1a) race.
On June 12 2010 01:45 whoopadeedoo wrote: Every Toss "solution" to EMP is to make Toss work harder. The truth is, every solution against terran is to have the opposing race (Zerg or Toss) play at a level above Terran. This is not balanced.
FWIW, I'm a (Diamond) Toss AND Terran player. I can't play Zerg to save my life.
So you want what? An anti-emp "lets make the skill cap even lower" button?
No. It's "let's make the skill requirements between races even."
I think the perfect solution to the problems of EMP in PvT can be fixed simply by allowing Guardian Shield to absorb an EMP blast, with anything under it being protected. The trade-off for toss is that the GS is destroyed when it gets hit by the EMP (currently, the GS stays active if you cast the spell before the EMP ... this makes no sense to me anyhow). However, Toss will have a workable solution to EMP that does not require any changes that would effect any other matchups.
Oh...
Hallucinate needs to be 50/50 and cheap to cast. The End. Overwhelm T with high priority targets, and hell all the toss player needs to do after making the hallucinations is to 1a them just like the rest of his army, once again preserving toss as the 1a2a3a4a (now just 1a) race.
I'm fine with other ideas involving Hallucinate, FB, and EMP range, but all these changes would effect all matchups (some with unforeseen consequences). They require a lot of thought to get right (and probably re-balancing of other values). The main reason I prefer my solution is nothing but TvP is effected.
On June 12 2010 01:45 whoopadeedoo wrote: Every Toss "solution" to EMP is to make Toss work harder. The truth is, every solution against terran is to have the opposing race (Zerg or Toss) play at a level above Terran. This is not balanced.
FWIW, I'm a (Diamond) Toss AND Terran player. I can't play Zerg to save my life.
So you want what? An anti-emp "lets make the skill cap even lower" button?
I think the perfect solution to the problems of EMP in PvT can be fixed simply by allowing Guardian Shield to absorb an EMP blast, with anything under it being protected. The trade-off for toss is that the GS is destroyed when it gets hit by the EMP (currently, the GS stays active if you cast the spell before the EMP ... this makes no sense to me anyhow). However, Toss will have a workable solution to EMP that does not require any changes that would effect any other matchups.
Oh...
Hallucinate needs to be 50/50 and cheap to cast. The End. Overwhelm T with high priority targets, and hell all the toss player needs to do after making the hallucinations is to 1a them just like the rest of his army, once again preserving toss as the 1a2a3a4a (now just 1a) race.
Because hitting T once for Stims and E for EMP a couple of times at the start of a fight is so much more difficult than a shitload of Fs for Force Field, Fs for Feedback and Ts for Storms. Yeah, Terran take so much more effort to play. How could we have been so selfish?
Is there really any point to these kinds of threads? Protoss says emp is OP terran says voidray is OP. No one ever really supports this very well, all the really matter is that each matchup is as close to 50/50 as possible. I've seen plenty of high level games where the terran player never builds ghosts so at least currently they aren't considered so good you have to build them. Blizzard made balance changes to SC1 over a pretty long time period so even if something is OP it is pretty likely they will fix it at some point. In every game ever therte are people complaining something is unfair, you can't make everyone happy and people are pretty biased towards "their" race anyway.
I'm personally not saying EMP is OP. It's just toss has no workable solution for EMP; if T builds Ghosts, EMPs are going to strike where and when it wants to strike, regardless of what P does. I can't think of another unit or spell that's analogous.
Void Rays aren't even in the same ballpark of discussion. I just to be absolutely clear, I'm a toss AND terran player. I'm not trying to buff one race over another. I see this issue from both points of view.
From an attackers PoV, I feel that EMP is just fine as it is. However from a defending protoss pov it is just over the top.
I don't believe that EMP is OP or IMBA. I simply think the problem is Protoss has zero counter for it from a defending stand point. Simply put there is no other ability in the game that has the means to decimate half your opponents hps instantly and quickly shut down casters. Storm does not come even close to this in power, and did not before it got nerfed yet everyone railed against it. Now if I am the toss and being aggressive, then I believe T needs something like EMP. As I said originally I think it is as an ability fine.
However where my gripe comes against emp is when I am trying to defend my base. If I try and break a T wall with an even or slightly smaller force, chances are I will just lose my army stupidly. The same applies to T if they aren't using emp. I believe that both races have good options here when it comes to breaking walls. The problem comes when Terran uses emp in conjunction with their other tools to break down my wall. It quite simply with a single click of the button, instantly strips any defenders advantage I had, no matter what composition I have built. Now it takes me thought, planning and effort to break a sieged T wall, it should require the same for them. I am sorry but a single button shouldn't instantly render my defensive wall a waste of time.
So if EMP is fine from an attacking PoV, then what do we do to fix the areas that need tuning? Well we could take the blizzard approach like they did with Void rays and nerf the unit breaking it in all other matchups for no good reason. Or we could give protoss a means to defend against it. I have suggested this multiple times and will continue suggesting it.
Shield Battery - This simple building made EMP tolerable in SC:BW because it gave protoss a counter. It didn't affect the matchup from an attacking pov, all it did was give protoss a means to hold defenders advantage if they built them smartly. The same could be done for here as well, and why it isn't with EMP being much more potent and accessible then in SC:BW I don't honestly know. This way T would actually have to plan on how to siege a defended protoss position, instead of toss emp and roll over the wall like it wasn't even built. By the same token, Protoss would need to be proactive in defending their wall as the SB effect would not be automatic. The moment they saw emp go off, they would need to be using the SB to mitigate its effects. Toss would still be taking losses, but would stand a much better chance if their micro was solid.
I would propose something like this in terms of cost.
Shield Battery Minerals 75 Gas 25 Total Energy 1000 Starting energy 200 Build time 50s Range 9 Effect range 3 Passive effect Increases shield regeneration rate of all units in range by 2% Requires Cybernetics Core to build
Activation of the shield battery restores 10% of all units shields within the effect range. Usage costs 200 energy.
Quite simply, this would be the perfect compliment to a protoss wall without being imba. It would really only be used against Early aggression and EMP pushes as serious pushes would still override its effect pretty quickly. I chose a percentage based approach so it affected all units equally, vs being really powerful on some and almost useless on others. Cost might need some tuning to prevent it from being spammed and making a toss wall impossible to break. I would think that making the building large enough would prevent too many from being close enough anyhow. That is also why I set the usage at 200 energy so only 50% of shields could be restored off a full battery.
The thing you protoss can't seem to see is simple. We are not playing warcraft 2. The races arent supposed to be exactly the same with the same advantages and disadvantages. Protoss can make forcefield walls and cut terran forces in half. Terran can use EMP and cut down not even half of protoss hitpoints. I would say that well employed forcefields can be just as damaging as EMP and it is used by much cheaper units, which doesn't require its own building and has multiple other excellent spells.
Now everyone is going to say BUT TERRAN CAN DO THIS TO COUNTER THAT. Well, that is exactly what people are saying to you here, maybe you should practice up.
Keep in mind that to get enough ghosts to EMP a large protoss force, you need a ghost academy as well as at least 4 150/150 ghosts which take 40 seconds to build, nearly 2 marauders worth of time, this is not cheap and ghosts are not that strong vs protoss beyond the emp. Templar can also turn into archons quite quickly and easily if you get EMP'd so they hardly become 100% countered.
On June 12 2010 03:23 statikg wrote: The thing you protoss can't seem to see is simple. We are not playing warcraft 2.
Seriously? That's your opening argument?
The races arent supposed to be exactly the same with the same advantages and disadvantages. Protoss can make forcefield walls and cut terran forces in half. Terran can use EMP and cut down not even half of protoss hitpoints. I would say that well employed forcefields can be just as damaging as EMP and it is used by much cheaper units, which doesn't require its own building and has multiple other excellent spells.
Now everyone is going to say BUT TERRAN CAN DO THIS TO COUNTER THAT. Well, that is exactly what people are saying to you here, maybe you should practice up.
Keep in mind that to get enough ghosts to EMP a large protoss force, you need a ghost academy as well as at least 4 150/150 ghosts which take 40 seconds to build, nearly 2 marauders worth of time, this is not cheap and ghosts are not that strong vs protoss beyond the emp. Templar can also turn into archons quite quickly and easily if you get EMP'd so they hardly become 100% countered.
Yes, things cost resources. Bravo. That's like Protoss coming up saying the counter to Psi Storm is "But, look at how much it costs!". When someone has fielded a few of the things, that last thing you're thinking of is "Man, look at how much that stuff costs! He must have had so much trouble building the things! Poor guy!". Thought processes like that just lead down the road of "Welp, he got a few Ghosts. I'm screwed. GG. F10-n". The cost is really just the cost of like one Banshee or one Siege Tank. The Ghost Academy is cheap as hell and you don't need any upgrades. What do you think does more damage in a fight? One EMP that unavoidably reduces the Protoss army's total life by anywhere from 10-25% (half the total life of half the army) right from the start of the battle, and limits his usage of Force Field and Psi Storm, or one Siege Tank? Its honestly insane that more Terrans aren't using them.
What you're really thinking when you see them is "Ahh shit, now what do I need to do?".
So far, all we CAN do is go defensive, spread out the ground army while trying to get HTs, pray he doesn't build more than like 2 of the things and also pray he sits in his base long enough for us to get those HTs. If he decides to push early, and is sensible enough to save some energy for scan (so he can EMP up our cliff, destroy any potential DTs and/or counter Hallucinations) we TEND to get stomped. Its not 100%, but its about as close to a hopeless situation as you're going to get in this game.
Other options include taking a huge risk in weakening your already risky front-line defense to drop his base and hope he falls for the distraction, predictably opening Void Rays to trap him in his base long enough to stall for time and expand or taking on the blob head-on and hoping you can Force Field enough of his force apart from the rest, before he zaps a big chunk of your Sentry energy, to make up for the loss of shields.
All of which require enormous outskilling of a guy building a bio blob, whacking E and clicking a few times.
The big problem here is a Terran ground army is MORE than capable of taking on a Protoss ground army WITHOUT EMP. The damage output to a ground force from a Stimmed M&M blob and Siege Tanks or Banshees is absolutely incredible. Hence why a lot of people don't bother with it. Screw diversity, just spam the shit that rapes Protoss ground armies. But, the ones that do get it, get a HUGE up-front burst of damage to help the fight along and send it over the edge with ease and the Protoss just has to play way, way better, take it in the face and hope for the best.
On June 11 2010 18:09 Drazzzt wrote: Almost dividing the opponent's hitpoints by 2 using 2-3 EMP is ridiculously strong and it is really hard to dodge.
A common thing I've noticed about most Q_Q'ing toss (notice the lack of pro) is their complete lack of ability to micro.
I know what you mean man i can TOTALLY micro against something that hits instantly and drains all my energy!!!
sounds like youre just a biased terran player, who doesnt want to believe EMP is OP,And as for the person above who said its just as hard as FF and HT / Infestors to use you are dead wrong and you know it, you click all their mana is drained you hit t a click and they die, is that really difficult?
:/ What can Toss do against EMP? It goes off EVERY time in pro games, and it goes off EVERY time I play Terran MMG against Toss (I was Diamond top 10 before and after the reset). Toss has no workable solution to EMPs (not saying they they can't win, but they can't do anything about the EMPs). Races should play differently, with different advantages and disadvantages. But give each race a solution to a problem. EMP has no solution and is the only spell/unit I can think of that plays this way in SC2.
Again, I'm a Toss AND Terran player, and I'm tired of Terran players making the argument Toss needs to "stop whining" and "learn to play" Firstly, there is nothing Toss can do about EMP, and secondly, it's unfair to require Toss or Zerg to play at a much higher level than Terran to simply compete. Sorry Terran players, but as a Terran player myself, T really requires the least amount of skill/micro to win in any level below pro. So Terran players, please stop the silly "learn to play" argument. It makes you look silly and hypocritical.
As for shield batteries, the problem is they ruin other balances. All rushes (especially PvP 2 gate rush) will not be viable with shield batteries ... though you can argue this isn't a bad thing
Sorry Bib, I thought you might be able to use your brain and make inferences. Maybe your inability there has something to do with your losses. My point about the costs of ghosts is that a different way to measure balance is whether using the resources/time of an academy + a few ghosts to alternatively make quite a few mauarders and have alot of gas for tanks/air/teching up could be equally desirable. Would I rather have a factory a couple tanks and a few more marauders or an academy and some ghosts? The answer is it depends and so perhaps that is a sign of balance.
On June 12 2010 04:00 statikg wrote: Sorry Bib, I thought you might be able to use your brain and make inferences. Maybe your inability there has something to do with your losses. My point about the costs of ghosts is that a different way to measure balance is whether using the resources/time of an academy + a few ghosts to alternatively make quite a few mauarders and have alot of gas for tanks/air/teching up could be equally desirable. Would I rather have a factory a couple tanks and a few more marauders or an academy and some ghosts? The answer is it depends and so perhaps that is a sign of balance.
Dunno why I bother responding to someone so immature. So, its balanced because you have choices, but we do not? That my success depends on you foolishly picking choice B that will allow me to enter the macrofest battle with you and try to outplay you there, over choice A which requires me to work ten times harder than you, just to break even and stay in the game?
I'm loving this "Well I play a Protoss AND Terran so my opinion is not bias at all!" kind of statement that seems to floating around here. Seriously I'm not buying it sorry an it might just be me but it seems a lot of Protoss posting here have this very stuck up attitude as they seem top think of them self as very "skilled" an example of this is "T really requires the least amount of skill/micro to win in any level below pro". Yeah it sure sounds like you have No bias at towards that race in which you say you play but thats besides the point. My idea would be to give Protoss a tool to deal with EMP... NOT nerf it into the ground like the long forgotten Hunter-Seeker missile which got hit so hard with the nerf stick it traveled back in time. I really wish these Whine threads give ideas an suggestions instead of "OMFG ITS OVERPOWERED AND COSTS ME EVERY GAME!!!!@!" because that really doesn't get much done shockingly enough.
How often do player-made balance suggestions get thrown in? How many times did people shriek, scream and cry about how Void Rays should lose their charge completely if they move one pixel, or when switching targets? Lo and behold they went with the conservative option only a scant few people made: reduce the range a bit so Marines have less trouble reaching them.
Believe it or not, discussion here does actually influence the balance process. Blizzard reps do read this site. If a concensus is made about something being ridiculous then they might put some focus testing on it.
On June 12 2010 04:11 whoopadeedoo wrote: Believe what you want if that's what you need to do to maintain your personal dogma. It's certainly easier then actually debating the issue.
Oh I'm sorry is asking for people to talk about it an suggest ideas to give Protoss a reasonable counter to it not allowed on a whine thread? Crazy me I guess I didn't notice that was my personal dogma.. OH WAIT!
On June 12 2010 04:07 GodIsNotHere wrote: I'm loving this "Well I play a Protoss AND Terran so my opinion is not bias at all!" kind of statement that seems to floating around here. Seriously I'm not buying it sorry an it might just be me but it seems a lot of Protoss posting here have this very stuck up attitude as they seem top think of them self as very "skilled" an example of this is "T really requires the least amount of skill/micro to win in any level below pro". Yeah it sure sounds like you have No bias at towards that race in which you say you play but thats besides the point. My idea would be to give Protoss a tool to deal with EMP... NOT nerf it into the ground like the long forgotten Hunter-Seeker missile which got hit so hard with the nerf stick it traveled back in time. I really wish these Whine threads give ideas an suggestions instead of "OMFG ITS OVERPOWERED AND COSTS ME EVERY GAME!!!!@!" because that really doesn't get much done shockingly enough.
Your suggestion, then, is that protoss get a tool to deal with EMP. I applaud your lack of vagueness, sir.
That said, I kind of liked the guardian shield counter a few posts above. In a big battle with a large amount of stimmed m&m the use of guardian shield really reduces the damage by a large percentage, so if EMP took away all guardian shield effects while guardian shield took away the shield-damaging effects of EMP, I think it could be a worthwhile tradeoff.
1. Can warp in at any expansion or at the front lines with enough energy to immediately cast a storm. 2. Has feedback which is great against medivacs, thors, ghosts, banshees, and BCs 3. Can transform into an archon after energy is used up or if EMPed. 3. Although Psi storm does damage over time instead of instantly like EMP, it does 100% damage to marines and 75% damage to Marauders. Whereas EMP deals 33% damage to zealots and 50% damage to stalkers and sentries. 4. Terran units are smaller so they clump much more than Toss units. Therefore a Storm will hit many more targets.
So no, Ghosts are not better than HT. They are both great support unit.
On June 12 2010 04:16 GodIsNotHere wrote: Oh I'm sorry is asking for people to talk about it an suggest ideas to give Protoss a reasonable counter to it not allowed on a whine thread? Crazy me I guess I didn't notice that was my personal dogma.. OH WAIT!
You've been too lazy to read, so you really shouldn't comment further until you review the posts thus far. I gave a suggestion that fits your demands, except I actually gave a real suggestion and not some ambiguous statement preceded by an useless diatribe calling people liars and whiners.
On June 12 2010 04:16 GodIsNotHere wrote: Oh I'm sorry is asking for people to talk about it an suggest ideas to give Protoss a reasonable counter to it not allowed on a whine thread? Crazy me I guess I didn't notice that was my personal dogma.. OH WAIT!
You've been too lazy to read, so you really shouldn't comment further until you review the posts thus far. I gave a suggestion that fits your demands, except I actually gave a real suggestion and not some ambiguous statement preceded by an useless diatribe calling people liars and whiners.
I have read a them an you can't argue the majority of the posts have just been asking for it to be nerfed(not all but many of them have an for some reason page two is crying over PDD so I guess some people won't be happy until the Raven is made worthless) and few are suggestions. My own suggesting would be changing it to a percentage an would make it similar to feed back were the more energy a target had the more effective it would be.
Man I must have missed all the insta terran victories going on in which the terran just builds whatever they want, mix in a few ghosts, press E and win. Silly me. It must instead be the case that there are just more skilled protoss players and everyone terran is n00b and thats whats balancing the games out.
The point that you guys are missing is that if there are choices which are equal or superior to ghosts based on the situation, then there is balance - unless you want to make the bib argument that terran are just better then protoss in general...lol.
It should be a slower projectile, so its more than a matter of e-click. Put some decision-making in there beyond "BLOB OF BLUE/PURPLE BARS E-CLICK FUUUUUUUUU"? At least Psi Storm has some decision-making involved by having to place it on key positions that can inflict the most damage by planning 4 seconds in advance or places where you want to deny your opponent movement - at the front to either prevent him, or do more damage if he rushes forward, or at the back to prevent/inflict more damage if he's retreating.
If it was a projectile, you'd have to lead targets, pick key ones and get less benefit by just spamming it all over the place mindlessly (like Psi Storm).
Either that or just reduce the range a bit so the Protoss consumes his Psi Storm energy to counter the EMP, not the Ghost. All too often you'll micro perfectly and spend that energy to drain the Ghost(s), only to have every single EMP get off anyway. Now you've got no energy, no shield and you wounded a few Ghosts. Whoopie.
The common suggestion of turning EMP into a research to delay the timing push doesn't fix the overall problem of it being too easy to use, and too strong of an effect when its in play, and would just make the Terran upgrade system even more crazy.
On June 12 2010 04:34 statikg wrote: Man I must have missed all the insta terran victories going on in which the terran just builds whatever they want, mix in a few ghosts, press E and win. Silly me. It must instead be the case that there are just more skilled protoss players and everyone terran is n00b and thats whats balancing the games out.
The point that you guys are missing is that if there are choices which are equal or superior to ghosts based on the situation, then there is balance - unless you want to make the bib argument that terran are just better then protoss in general...lol.
Maybe you've missed them because you lack the creativity to use them yourself and stick to what everyone else is raging about (presumably 1/1/1)? You only play your own TvP battles after all. You never see it from the other perspective.
Want to know what Protoss players REALLY shit their pants over? Big Terran blobs with a handful of everything. 8 Siege Tanks? Piss easy to beat. 6 Siege Tanks and 2 Vikings? Ut oh. 4 Siege Tanks, 2 Vikings and 2 Ghosts? Now we're in trouble.
On June 12 2010 04:20 link0 wrote: The advantages HT have over ghosts:
1. Can warp in at any expansion or at the front lines with enough energy to immediately cast a storm. 2. Has feedback which is great against medivacs, thors, ghosts, banshees, and BCs 3. Can transform into an archon after energy is used up or if EMPed. 3. Although Psi storm does damage over time instead of instantly like EMP, it does 100% damage to marines and 75% damage to Marauders. Whereas EMP deals 33% damage to zealots and 50% damage to stalkers and sentries. 4. Terran units are smaller so they clump much more than Toss units. Therefore a Storm will hit many more targets.
So no, Ghosts are not better than HT. They are both great support unit.
As I have stated earlier, PSI storm does MUCH more damage than EMP. And the instant warp-in + storm is awesome.
On June 12 2010 04:34 statikg wrote: Man I must have missed all the insta terran victories going on in which the terran just builds whatever they want, mix in a few ghosts, press E and win. Silly me. It must instead be the case that there are just more skilled protoss players and everyone terran is n00b and thats whats balancing the games out.
The point that you guys are missing is that if there are choices which are equal or superior to ghosts based on the situation, then there is balance - unless you want to make the bib argument that terran are just better then protoss in general...lol.
I'm not missing your point. It's just your point is irrelevant to the thread: Toss has no workable solution to EMP.
I will ignore your first paragraph because I've never made such statements. I will simply say it is the typical "terran-only-player-going-hyper-defensive" response.
EMP can be used to reveal cloaked units like DTs and Observers and counters all of our caster-units just like Feedback does to yours. A Storm might have smaller targets to hit, but EMP has a radius 50% larger, which makes its area of effect 125% larger, so even if the unit sizes are larger, its still hitting just as many units. Not to mention, those smaller units filling up your army are only 1 food a piece. Ours always cost at least 2.
Listing differences doesn't take the discussion anywhere. Yes, they're great support units, but the difference in an upfront 30-50% burst drop in total life to everything it hits compared to a 50-100% drop over 4 seconds is absolutely enormous. Yeah, we can instagib a lot of Stimmed Marines in a short space of time. You can instagib all of our Zealots just as quickly with one volley of Siege Tank fire after an EMP.
Burst-damage is how you kill things quickly. Almost nothing in the Protoss army is particularly bursty. Units with low fire-rates, but high damage like Siege Tanks, Marauders, Vikings and Banshees, and spells like EMP make the Terran army inflict an utterly incredible amount of damage on the first volley, which destroys Protoss hopes of having longer micro-oriented battles where they can make full use of their spells and shields, awkward time-sensitive mechanics like the Void Ray, strong but short range damage of the Immortal and so on.
Doesn't do any good to split your opponent's force in half when you've just lost half of it in the first volley. Doesn't do any good to Psi Storm a bunch of stuff to 20% when you've got nothing left to finish it off. Doesn't do any good to have a recharging shield mechanic when nothing you have has any shields to begin with!
On June 12 2010 04:20 link0 wrote: The advantages HT have over ghosts:
1. Can warp in at any expansion or at the front lines with enough energy to immediately cast a storm. 2. Has feedback which is great against medivacs, thors, ghosts, banshees, and BCs 3. Can transform into an archon after energy is used up or if EMPed. 4. Although Psi storm does damage over time instead of instantly like EMP, it does 100% damage to marines and 75% damage to Marauders. Whereas EMP deals 33% damage to zealots and 50% damage to stalkers and sentries. 5. Terran units are smaller so they clump much more than Toss units. Therefore a Storm will hit many more targets.
So no, Ghosts are not better than HT. They are both great support unit.
That's just stating what the HT does, but not saying how it is an advantage. And for that to be any good for this discussion it should come with another list of "disadvantages of HT over ghost".
1. That's true, after we built the gateway, cybernetics, twilight, templar archives, researched Psionic Storm and Khaydarin Amulet. 2. True 3. Which means they do nothing for 12s, while the battle is going on, while the ghosts are still shooting. And with their big size, slow speed and short range, they generally don't do much more than trying to reach the opponents army. 4. 100% no. Rarely do you see any good terran player lose his marines in one storm. Even bad players know they have to move. A storm won't usually take more than 20-50%. The time it takes to deal the 80 damage are 4 full seconds. That's a lot of time. 5. Hitting more targets doesn't matter. A storm could hit 15 marines, if they dodge it they won't lose as much as an undodgeable emp on protoss army.
Whoopadee it must be very hard to have a conversation with you as you seem unable to follow the a changing topic. That said perhaps you should consider that there is not supposed to be a hard counter to EMP. Instead, try to follow as the debate changes to what you can do to win the game even if you do get hit by EMP.
I never said you can't win if you're hit by EMP. I never complained about EMP being OPed. I am not looking for a hard counter. ALL I'VE ASKED FOR IS A WORKABLE SOLUTION TO PREVENT OR MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF EMP.
It's hard to have a conversation with me when you're setting up strawmen all the time. I give up.
Umm, I watched most of pxplay and gom tournaments and ghosts are pretty rare to see because protoss is just always richer and should be richer (its a lot easier for us, protoss, to expand to our natural before them because of the risk that terran has in their first battle). Terrans on the other hand r poorer and each ghost is a huge hit on the gas, not to mention its a queue on techlab'ed rax. EMP also does dmg to existing protoss units and its so much easier and faster to reinforce than our Terran opponents. when a battle starts we are almost always fighting with the original army + popping all gateway cool downs vs. terran's original army. As long as u continue to expand calling the terran out to fight in the middle, terran has to do so much more than protoss (siege + stim + emp + concave + dodge storms + attack vs. attack + storm + warpgate spam).
EMP is an awesome skill but its better at hardening the edge they gained. Our first or 2nd push timing with two immortals almost always get there before terran has more than a single EMP shots. as long as both army wipes in that battle he wont have too many ghosts in their next battle.
On June 12 2010 05:25 statikg wrote: Whoopadee it must be very hard to have a conversation with you as you seem unable to follow the a changing topic. That said perhaps you should consider that there is not supposed to be a hard counter to EMP. Instead, try to follow as the debate changes to what you can do to win the game even if you do get hit by EMP.
Don't even bother Whoopadee doesn't want to talk about ways to deal with it he simple wants it nerfed/changed to the point in which its useless, Aka HunterSeeker 2.0.
On June 12 2010 05:52 cive wrote: Umm, I watched most of pxplay and gom tournaments and ghosts are pretty rare to see because protoss is just always richer and should be richer (its a lot easier for us, protoss, to expand to our natural before them because of the risk that terran has in their first battle).
The way I see it, that just means people need to start experimenting with them more. I don't feel the LEAST bit safe to expand if my opponent is getting a bio ball with one or two early Ghosts. I like getting an early Observer and finding out what he's doing before I commit to any tech path or expand. When I spot the bio ball+Ghost composition, all thoughts of expanding and teching go completely out of the window.
I think many Terrans really, really underestimate how strong these guys are during an early offensive. Simple M&M blobs are already frightening enough because you absolutely need to fight them at the right location, have the right number of Sentries to stop them kiting and have enough Zealots in your composition to tank for you and I don't think a single one of our Tier 2 options is as deadly as a single Ghost is when added to an M&M blob.
Maps with large choke points in, or around, your base or natural make an early ghost push absolutely devastating. Scrap Station and Metalopolis spring to mind. How do you Force Field the army in half when there's barely any natural obstructions to complete the split?
On June 12 2010 05:57 GodIsNotHere wrote: Don't even bother Whoopadee doesn't want to talk about ways to deal with it he simple wants it nerfed/changed to the point in which its useless, Aka HunterSeeker 2.0.
Sigh. I made one suggestion, and it was very far from your ridiculous portrayal in your attempt to make me look bad. I swear I feel like I'm having discussions with jr high people
On June 12 2010 05:57 GodIsNotHere wrote: Don't even bother Whoopadee doesn't want to talk about ways to deal with it he simple wants it nerfed/changed to the point in which its useless, Aka HunterSeeker 2.0.
Sigh. I made one suggestion, and it was very far from your ridiculous portrayal in your attempt to make me look bad. I swear I feel like I'm having discussions with jr high people
Not a ridiculous idea? Your idea would make it so EMP was worthless once a Protss got any number of sentrys. So yeah it does sound a bit stupid I'm sorry but it does and its just a poor idea.
On June 12 2010 05:57 GodIsNotHere wrote: Don't even bother Whoopadee doesn't want to talk about ways to deal with it he simple wants it nerfed/changed to the point in which its useless, Aka HunterSeeker 2.0.
Sigh. I made one suggestion, and it was very far from your ridiculous portrayal in your attempt to make me look bad. I swear I feel like I'm having discussions with jr high people
Not a ridiculous idea? Your idea would make it so EMP was worthless once a Protss got any number of sentrys. So yeah it does sound a bit stupid I'm sorry but it does and its just a poor idea.
Actually I think his idea was OK, if we assume the EMP is OP. As it is now, if the sentry casts guardian shield it stays up even if the ghost EMPs the sentry. He suggest the EMP is stopped by the GS but disables it in the progress, which makes EMP still useful (it takes away GS) but makes it harder to actually EMP units. A terran can still engage and EMP the protoss army before GS is cast. If that is too big of a nerf, make it so one EMP disables all GS that it hits (not just the one it hits first).. so to hit an protoss army protected by GS you need two EMP shots rather than one.
Actually I think his idea was OK, if we assume the EMP is OP. As it is now, if the sentry casts guardian shield it stays up even if the ghost EMPs the sentry. He suggest the EMP is stopped by the GS but disables it in the progress, which makes EMP still useful (it takes away GS) but makes it harder to actually EMP units. A terran can still engage and EMP the protoss army before GS is cast. If that is too big of a nerf, make it so one EMP disables all GS that it hits (not just the one it hits first).. so to hit an protoss army protected by GS you need two EMP shots rather than one.
My suggestion is that the EMP takes out every GS that is within the EMP AoE radius. A smart EMP could take out multiple GS. It's a really big tradeoff for Toss (certainly not heavily tilted for toss like GodIsNotHere is trying to imply. In fact, if you crunch the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if this actually favors Terran in many situations. But at least it gives Toss a workable option against EMP.
What about cutting the energydrain to a maximum of 100 instead of all and remove the ability to reveal cloaked units (with turrets, OC's and even Ravens i wonder why they do this in the first place)?
Actually I think his idea was OK, if we assume the EMP is OP. As it is now, if the sentry casts guardian shield it stays up even if the ghost EMPs the sentry. He suggest the EMP is stopped by the GS but disables it in the progress, which makes EMP still useful (it takes away GS) but makes it harder to actually EMP units. A terran can still engage and EMP the protoss army before GS is cast. If that is too big of a nerf, make it so one EMP disables all GS that it hits (not just the one it hits first).. so to hit an protoss army protected by GS you need two EMP shots rather than one.
My suggestion is that the EMP takes out every GS that is within the EMP AoE radius. A smart EMP could take out multiple GS. It's a really big tradeoff for Toss (certainly not heavily tilted for toss like GodIsNotHere is trying to imply. In fact, if you crunch the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if this actually favors Terran in many situations. But at least it gives Toss a workable option against EMP.
Brainstorm this idea if you want but please don't imply this change would be beneficial to Terran in anyway shape or form.
You could remove a whole buttload of GSs from play without having to target-fire the Sentries, and can still double-tap a spot with EMP to remove shield/energy from it if you have to. Its not like the Protoss is going to be able to bring up a second wave of GS between the time it takes you to launch two consecutive shots.
Isn't GS the reason you guys don't like building Marines, and then complain about how Void Rays are too hard to counter?
On June 12 2010 07:08 CruelZeratul wrote: What about cutting the energydrain to a maximum of 100 instead of all and remove the ability to reveal cloaked units (with turrets, OC's and even Ravens i wonder why they do this in the first place)?
emp will eventually be changed in the future bc its just too strong right now. just look at the void ray nerf, it was basically scout ppl n ull be fine but they choose to nerf instead. with ghost even if u scout, its still hard to play around. i bet some of those same ppl that cried void ray left n right when told to scout n micro r saying micro against ghost which is 100x harder.
maybe something like have it come with remove shield but require research to have remove energy too
Whats the point in discussing how the game change for us to deal EMP? Especially when toss r winning a lot at higher levels? we have such an advantage with extremely simple macro. Really well placed pylons or a warp prism and chrono boost is an extreme edge we have over T. sure they take out half our health and we cant do anything about it but we have more than enough tools to indirectly counter that. Hallucination is an awesome idea as well.
On June 12 2010 07:08 CruelZeratul wrote: What about cutting the energydrain to a maximum of 100 instead of all and remove the ability to reveal cloaked units (with turrets, OC's and even Ravens i wonder why they do this in the first place)?
EMP only removes 100 energy as it is right now.
No it doesn't. It removes all energy and 100 shields, which is like all of the shields of everything but Carriers, Collossi, buildings and Motherships.
"Creates an electromagnetic pulse that does 100 damage to shields and drains all energy from units in a targeted area. Cloaked units hit by EMP are revealed for a short time."
On June 12 2010 07:21 cive wrote: Whats the point in discussing how the game change for us to deal EMP? Especially when toss r winning a lot at higher levels? we have such an advantage with extremely simple macro. Really well placed pylons or a warp prism and chrono boost is an extreme edge we have over T. sure they take out half our health and we cant do anything about it but we have more than enough tools to indirectly counter that. Hallucination is an awesome idea as well.
chrono boost should not be part of any balance discussion since terran has mule, supply drop n scan.
toss has warp in, terran has reactors for double production.
n a well executed drop ship is same as warp prism
hallucination is a decent idea but when u have both that n warp gate finished, they should have mult emp rdy
The big problem with this GS idea is that people seem to think the entire Protoss army will only have 1 sentry which I'm pretty sure is not the case. Pretty sure this change would do one thing an that is if the Terran wanted to go Bio/Ghost he'd have to invest twice as much Gas/Minerals which would take a huge chunk out of the Marine/Marauder count even more so if he invested in Cloak to try an sneak in a clean EMP. I just wouldn't see a reason to get Ghost, it would be a lot more effective just to go Mech an from the 3-4 post this week crying over how overpowered that is I image thats not what people want to see happen.
My problem with EMP is that even if it doesn't hit my Templars, and just smashes my Chargelots + Stalker support, I still lose the battle, even with Storm going off (and being micro'd out of).
for gs idea to work, it should be like remove gs n reduce energy dmg n shield dmg somewhat. it shouldnt outright block emp. maybe like 50 energy n 50 shield
This isn't a balance/OP issue (at least not for me). It's simply about giving Toss a workable solution to prevent/mitigate EMP. But I think I've said this already
On June 12 2010 07:26 GodIsNotHere wrote: The big problem with this GS idea is that people seem to think the entire Protoss army will only have 1 sentry which I'm pretty sure is not the case. Pretty sure this change would do one thing an that is if the Terran wanted to go Bio/Ghost he'd have to invest twice as much Gas/Minerals which would take a huge chunk out of the Marine/Marauder count even more so if he invested in Cloak to try an sneak in a clean EMP. I just wouldn't see a reason to get Ghost, it would be a lot more effective just to go Mech an from the 3-4 post this week crying over how overpowered that is I image thats not what people want to see happen.
What this change will do is delay EMP's early advantage (before Toss has a chance to exploit macro advantage) and give Toss an option to deal with EMP instead of just having to take it without being able to do anything to stop it. The ability to shut down GS in an AoE radius is pretty f'ing powerful for MMG Terrans; -2 range damage adds up very fast for MM balls. I have no desire to unilaterally buff Toss (even if you do not believe me, I'm a Terran player too). FYI: Ghosts don't need cloak to fire off a clean EMP. The thing has a f'ing range of 10 (+2 radius).
On June 12 2010 07:30 trucejl wrote: for gs idea to work, it should be like remove gs n reduce energy dmg n shield dmg somewhat. it shouldnt outright block emp. maybe like 50 energy n 50 shield
Removing GS and taking out half energy and shield is in OP territory. MM armies would absolutely steamroll toss if this change occurred.
I'm pretty sure if you ask any Terran I don't think any of them would pick the GS change over how it is now and this is not saying how it is now isn't a bit over the top. Also with the GS protection HT would just have free reign an the Terran would spend 90% of this time dodging storms since he wouldn't be able to stop them.
You'd just need to invest the energy in double-tapping the same spot. First one removes the GS, second one drains the shield and energy. The odds of bringing up a second shield before the second EMP hits is incredibly unlikely.
You still have the range and 'hiding inside the M&M blob' advantage over Feedback, so a Protoss can't stop every single one getting off, just like you won't be able to stop every Psi Storm, but you can stop some of it and so can we.
That's much more balanced than "Find Ghosts in clusterfuck, cast Feedback on them and pray he doesn't cast EMP before your slow-ass HT closes the range gap or gets mauled by a Siege Tank".
On June 12 2010 08:05 GodIsNotHere wrote: I'm pretty sure if you ask any Terran I don't think any of them would pick the GS change over how it is now and this is not saying how it is now isn't a bit over the top. Also with the GS protection HT would just have free reign an the Terran would spend 90% of this time dodging storms since he wouldn't be able to stop them.
Kinda like Ghosts have free reign now? LOL. Now you're getting it In case you didn't know: Psi Storms range is 6 (+1.5 radius). EMP range is 10 (+2 radius).
At least you can dodge Psi Storms.
Seriously, play some toss. I think you'll understand where I'm coming from. I switched from Toss to Terran because I wanted to see how the other side played. As Toss, the most frustrating battles are against Terran, and I know this is often said by Zerg players too. What I found is not that Terran is OP, but Terran is easier and more forgiving to play effectively then P or Z.
A lot people seem to think storms are pretty weak from how everyone seems to be talking about them, Sure you might not get the full damage out of them but the results of it causing the enemy to move can't be overlooked. It gives you plenty of free shots, and breaks any form of concave which in most cases will be devastating. Also, so now theres Siege tanks in this scenario? because if wanna do this "What if" game things can be spun in many different directions but right now most people are talking about that early to mid game Ghost/Bio push vs Gateway/Templar.
On June 12 2010 08:05 GodIsNotHere wrote: I'm pretty sure if you ask any Terran I don't think any of them would pick the GS change over how it is now and this is not saying how it is now isn't a bit over the top. Also with the GS protection HT would just have free reign an the Terran would spend 90% of this time dodging storms since he wouldn't be able to stop them.
Kinda like Ghosts have free reign? LOL. In case you didn't know: Psi Storms range is 6. EMP range is 10.
At least you can dodge Psi Storms.
Seriously, play some toss. I think you'll understand where I'm coming from. I switched from Toss to Terran because I wanted to see how the other side played. As Toss, the most frustrating battles are against Terran, and I know this is often said by Zerg players too. What I found is not that Terran is OP, but Terran is easier and more forgiving to play effectively then P or Z.
I do play Protoss but I do play Terran more.(Can't stand Zerg at all) Protoss just feels boring if you ask me.
I'm not arguing Storms are weak or EMP is more powerful than Storm (though I could make a good argument for this). I'm just arguing you can't do anything about EMPs as Toss. This is not true of HTs or any other unit/spells. I'm not sure how many different ways I need to say this to get through
On June 12 2010 08:05 GodIsNotHere wrote: I'm pretty sure if you ask any Terran I don't think any of them would pick the GS change over how it is now and this is not saying how it is now isn't a bit over the top. Also with the GS protection HT would just have free reign an the Terran would spend 90% of this time dodging storms since he wouldn't be able to stop them.
Kinda like Ghosts have free reign now? LOL. Now you're getting it In case you didn't know: Psi Storms range is 6 (+1.5 radius). EMP range is 10 (+2 radius).
True the range & area of affect should be made equal, I doubt anyone would argue other wise.
On June 12 2010 08:19 GodIsNotHere wrote: A lot people seem to think storms are pretty weak from how everyone seems to be talking about them, Sure you might not get the full damage out of them but the results of it causing the enemy to move can't be overlooked. It gives you plenty of free shots, and breaks any form of concave which in most cases will be devastating. Also, so now theres Siege tanks in this scenario? because if wanna do this "What if" game things can be spun in many different directions but right now most people are talking about that early to mid game Ghost/Bio push vs Gateway/Templar.
So I because I put "or mauled by a Siege Tank" the argument goes out of the window?
Its more like two possible situations:
Bio Ball + Ghosts vs Gateway units and maybe an Immortal or Void Ray (you NEVER have an HT here...ever)
or
Gigantic army made of everything, Ghosts included vs Gigantic army made of everything, HTs included
My point there was, they're not ONLY useful in an early push. In a late-game battle with two massive armies colliding, when we DO have HTs there to 'counter' the Ghosts, its still a massive coin-toss to use Feedback because you have the range advantage with both the spell itself, and the rest of your army.
We just get range 9 Collossi that kill Ghosts in what, 4 (8) shots? You get range 13 tanks that squish our HTs in two.
Whenever anyone recommends using Feedback against Ghosts as a solution, I chuckle and pretty much ignore anything else they write. Even if FB range > EMP (it's not), anyone making this suggestion has never tried targeting a moving ghost in the narrow window of opportunity, let alone one in a MM ball. It's nothing like FB'ing medivacs or battlecruisiers
And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile.
On June 11 2010 22:32 STS17 wrote: Psy Storm: Is effective against all three races to an equal degree Can do damage to any unit in the game. Can actually kill a unit. Can be used to to block off area to force an opponent to retreat or enable your own retreat. can be cast immediately upon spawn once upgraded on a unit that can spawn anywhere there is power. Effect persists for 4 seconds - can be microed out of to minimize damage
EMP: Damages the shields of Protoss units Can only effect the casters of Zerg and Terran Can never actually kill a unit Can't be used upon the spawn of the unit even with upgrades Effect is instantaneous.
well if you really want an unfair 1-sided view of the two spells, i suggest this one:
Storm: late tier 3 (and requires a research) range 6 radius 1.5 damage 80 over 4 sec (= less than 80 dmg if your units can use their feet...) can be quite easily prevented by terrans by using EMP does not affect buildings
EMP: tier 1.5 (doesn't require any research) range 10 radius 2 100 damage (instant) side effects : reveal cloaked units, drain 100% energy can hardly be prevented by protoss by using FB affect every protoss units/buildings
However I dont consider that EMP is so unfair right now. I agree with the fact that actually storm is more versatile because it can kill (and that's maybe why it does less damage).
In early game terran players don't go for more than one or two ghosts (because they are really expensive). So dividing your army or using immortal hallucinations may be quite effective. Retreat is more common and effective too (shields regenerate very quickier than in BW) but leads to the fact than in PvT protoss players dont have the initiative of the offensive (and indirectly they have less opportunities to expand...). What to do then, if you really feel you're wasting time? I've found that harrasing miners with 2 phoenix or 2 VR works fine as long as the Terran has not started the mass production of vikings. Quick hit-and-runs with phoenixes over the miners is usually not so much affected by the presence of ghosts (if you really dont know what to do)
EDIT : i've just read the comment above mine and I feel like it's actually very true
On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote: And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile.
against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray
ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before.
only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays
On June 12 2010 07:08 CruelZeratul wrote: What about cutting the energydrain to a maximum of 100 instead of all and remove the ability to reveal cloaked units (with turrets, OC's and even Ravens i wonder why they do this in the first place)?
EMP only removes 100 energy as it is right now.
You know, it would still be crippling if it drained 100 energy.. but alas, it drains ALL energy.
Completely utter batshit.
10 range + 2 aoe = 12 range, seriously, any moron who ever says feedback is a ghost counter should be smacked. EMP has NO soft or hard counters. If terran builds ghost to emp your face, he will manage to do so regardless of your actions.
On a side benefit, protoss typically respond with a lot of zealots against bio ball (cos stalkers get owned so hard by marauders).. guess what type of bonus damage ghosts get? Yup, against light zealots, a nice 20 dmg per shot so it isn't as affected by armor/guardian shields compared to marines or marauder vs light. So once you EMP his army (instant 50 dmg vs zealots or 80 dmg vs stalkers), your ghosts still put out impressive dps against zealots (a lot more than a stalker vs armored targets). Try it in the Unit Tester, see how dominating a T army is with just 2 ghosts in it vs a few extra units.
HT can't even dream of matching Ghost performance and its a mid game tier 3 option requiring 2 long research.
Also, immortals.. they are useless when ghosts are around. That is about as hard as a hard counter that exists. So let's summarize shall we: EMP makes immortals, sentries and HT utterly useless AND it gets to weaken the rest of the protoss army by 30-50%.. combined with its longest spell casting range and big aoe radius and instant effect, there's no chance to micro to minimize it's impact. All from a t1.5 unit. Not OP? Stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking. But let's wait and see, next time bliz nerfs EMP, don't all of you bias T players come crying how it was so unexpected.
Edit: Vikings will dominate VR mass. Focus fire will instant kill VR, by the time they are charged, there's only a few left alive. Just the range of 9 means by the time your VR get into range, a few already died.
1. Spread out. Ok, can do! But EMP is cheap, each ghost can get at least 2 EMP in reliably. You tend to get more than 1 ghost. So even against a spread army, you can emp them all.
2. Yup, going into ramp or chokes or whatever, aoe spells dominate. Except EMP dominates in the open too, see #1. Storm has a smaller radius, shorter range and doesn't do its full effect instantly but over 4 seconds so your can micro to minimize its impact. EMP, there's no microing to minimize its impact.
3. You are exactly correct. Ghost and Templar timings are very different in time and cost. Ghosts are t1.5, similar to sentries and stalkers. Templar is t3, and to be effective requires expensive research. Just the fact that a t1.5 free ability can counter everything protoss.. is a bit imba, don't you think?
Just a few ghosts, 2 or 3 will be able to EMP an entire spread out army, and still contribute with very high dps vs zealots and other light units after they are out of energy.
It just doesn't make any sense, EMP is meant to counter psi storm or fungal growth etc, it works well for that. But when feedback is meant to counter EMP, it doesn't. You cannot counter something that has a longer range and is aoe therefore, easier to target with. It should be feedback range = 10 (like snipe), EMP range = 6 = storm. But it's the other way around, EMP = 10 + 2 aoe. So it counters everything with no counters against it. These things matter a great deal.
On June 12 2010 13:00 SilverforceX wrote: Seems like this always go around in circles.
1. Spread out. Ok, can do! But EMP is cheap, each ghost can get at least 2 EMP in reliably. You tend to get more than 1 ghost. So even against a spread army, you can emp them all.
2. Yup, going into ramp or chokes or whatever, aoe spells dominate. Except EMP dominates in the open too, see #1. Storm has a smaller radius, shorter range and doesn't do its full effect instantly but over 4 seconds so your can micro to minimize its impact. EMP, there's no microing to minimize its impact.
3. You are exactly correct. Ghost and Templar timings are very different in time and cost. Ghosts are t1.5, similar to sentries and stalkers. Templar is t3, and to be effective requires expensive research. Just the fact that a t1.5 free ability can counter everything protoss.. is a bit imba, don't you think?
Just a few ghosts, 2 or 3 will be able to EMP an entire spread out army, and still contribute with very high dps vs zealots and other light units after they are out of energy.
It just doesn't make any sense, EMP is meant to counter psi storm or fungal growth etc, it works well for that. But when feedback is meant to counter EMP, it doesn't. You cannot counter something that has a longer range and is aoe therefore, easier to target with. It should be feedback range = 10 (like snipe), EMP range = 6 = storm. But it's the other way around, EMP = 10 + 2 aoe. So it counters everything with no counters against it. These things matter a great deal.
It only goes in circles because your argument is completely lopsided.
1. Ghosts don't start off with full energy. They start with 50. EMP costs 75. It takes 50 (game) seconds to get that extra 25 energy. A Terran's first ghost can do a MAX of (not "at least") 2 EMPs after being out for 3 minutes and 20 seconds gametime (+100 energy at 1 every 2 seconds). I'm not going to calculate out the number of EMPs a Terran could potentially do at any given time, but as you can see, you are stacking the odds heavily in the Terran's favor from nowhere.
2. There most certainly IS micro to minimize the impact of an EMP. As was stated SEVERAL times in this thread that you just decide not to acknowledge is that you can spread your forces to minimize or manipulate how many/which units eat the EMP, and/or, you can retreat after the EMP(s) go off- after which, it takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds gametime to replenish the energy used for them.
3. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable.HT and Ghosts are not comparable!!!
Also, "countering" a unit does not mean to completely shut it down. It simply means to make it less effective. A "counter" does NOT need to be a spell or unit. It can simply mean a way to play. You don't say that the "counter" for Cannon Rushes is Workers. If anything, you say that the counter is Micro. The same is true with EMP. The "counter" to it is micro to make it less effective.
I don't get the comparison between HT and Ghosts. They are different units that come out at different points in the game and are in different armies. There just really isn't a whole lot to compare between them.
The problem with EMP as I see it is that it doesn't add anything to the game. Everything else has a two way relationship. Marauders->Immortals->Marines->Colossi->Vikings->Stalkers->Marauders, is a fairly complex chain of counters that you might see in an average game. Every threat has a response and you have to judge which response is correct (for example, we can replace the Immortals in that example with void rays or the Colossi with HT depending on how you want to play it). EMP doesn't really work along these lines. If you see your opponent going EMP there just isn't a really good response. Chargelots are the best I can think of and they have significant problems as well (they still take a ton of damage and terran has multiple valid responses to chargelots even without the EMP). It also isn't really a necessary answer to any of the questions that Protoss have. It just makes the battles easier.
On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote: And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile.
against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray
ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before.
only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays
Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant.
So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings.
And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob.
There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things.
On June 11 2010 18:46 SilverforceX wrote: Mudd: Micro what? There's nothing to micro dude.
Ghosts EMP your face happens instantly. It can be spammed, hold E and click on all his army (if he micro to spread them out). Instant effect, bye bye shields. See casters? EMP them too, instantly!
Now, Psi Storm, you can argue about micro. If you have good micro, storm does like 20 dmg. No contest. EMP is wacked imba vs protoss.
Think of it this way.. what if, storm had 1) instant 50 dmg (not even 100 shields that emp nullifies), and drained all energy. It's available on sentries without requiring research. Would that be balanced? Didn't think so.
Time to obtain Ghost and Sentry: Barracks = 60s Ghost Academy = 70s You can build tech lab while Ghost Academy is building, it only takes 25s. Ghost = 40s
Total = 170s
Gateway = 65s Cybernetics Core = 50s Sentry = 42s
Total = 157s, Only 13s slower than teching to Ghost.
Another point, HT Amulet cost = 150/150, 110s. Moebius = 100/100, 80s. Same effect. Why the huge cost differential?
You forget to add that Ghost tech is out of the way of anythign else.
On June 12 2010 13:35 Sylvr wrote: It only goes in circles because your argument is completely lopsided.
1. Ghosts don't start off with full energy. They start with 50. EMP costs 75. It takes 50 (game) seconds to get that extra 25 energy. A Terran's first ghost can do a MAX of (not "at least") 2 EMPs after being out for 3 minutes and 20 seconds gametime (+100 energy at 1 every 2 seconds). I'm not going to calculate out the number of EMPs a Terran could potentially do at any given time, but as you can see, you are stacking the odds heavily in the Terran's favor from nowhere.
2. There most certainly IS micro to minimize the impact of an EMP. As was stated SEVERAL times in this thread that you just decide not to acknowledge is that you can spread your forces to minimize or manipulate how many/which units eat the EMP, and/or, you can retreat after the EMP(s) go off- after which, it takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds gametime to replenish the energy used for them.
3. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable.HT and Ghosts are not comparable!!!
Also, "countering" a unit does not mean to completely shut it down. It simply means to make it less effective. A "counter" does NOT need to be a spell or unit. It can simply mean a way to play. You don't say that the "counter" for Cannon Rushes is Workers. If anything, you say that the counter is Micro. The same is true with EMP. The "counter" to it is micro to make it less effective.
1. Moebius. Cheap and fast to upgrade. What, it's 100/100, 80s. Guess what HT have that's identical? Yet it costs 150/150 and 110s for Amulet. If it's an early game clash, armies are small. 1 EMP will hit pretty much all the units. Note range 10 + 2, see them, instant EMP before they can even spread. Later armies, they can spread and have observers to prepare for spreading, but you will have a few ghosts by then, with some having 150+ energy for 2 EMPs.
2. As stated already, retreat will just make things worse. Conc shell and stim = Terran army is a lot faster. It may buy you a few seconds. How much shields and energy can you regen in that time let alone how many zealots you just lost in the retreat?
3. They aren't comparable because one is t1.5 and counters the entire protoss army without any counters including micro, but the other is a t3 much more expensive to tech and research that is meant to counter massed units, but still allow micro to minimize its impact. So yes, i do agree they aren't comparable. One is clearly much much superior in this MU.
Yes, i agree a counter doesn't mean a hard counter shutdown. Kinda like how EMP hard counters immortals, sentry and HT and "soft-counters" every other protoss units. I would just like as protoss to have a viable "soft-counter", for example, why is the EMP effect instantaneous with such a huge range? If it weren't instant, i could actually micro my units out of the aoe and minimize its impact. Don't mention spreading out armies again please, it's not even a viable soft counter yet requires much more micro, refer to #1, a few ghost will negate any spread you have.
EMP in bw was t3, and expensive to research. It's range was also shorter than feedback allowing protoss to have an effective micro counter against it. That was balanced. In Sc2, EMP is apeshit imba.
On June 12 2010 15:14 NitroN7 wrote: You forget to add that Ghost tech is out of the way of anythign else.
Sentry tech is on the way to EVERYTHING else
Ghosts are t1.5, you can get them if you want to, it's an optional choice. You can mix it in any army composition because the academy is cheap.
Cybercore is a requisite to the other 3 tech trees. It doesn't flow, it branches off. Terran inherently has the more fluid tech path. Barracks > Fact > Starport. Easy peasy you have everything and quite cheap too.
On June 11 2010 18:46 SilverforceX wrote: Mudd: Micro what? There's nothing to micro dude.
Ghosts EMP your face happens instantly. It can be spammed, hold E and click on all his army (if he micro to spread them out). Instant effect, bye bye shields. See casters? EMP them too, instantly!
Now, Psi Storm, you can argue about micro. If you have good micro, storm does like 20 dmg. No contest. EMP is wacked imba vs protoss.
Think of it this way.. what if, storm had 1) instant 50 dmg (not even 100 shields that emp nullifies), and drained all energy. It's available on sentries without requiring research. Would that be balanced? Didn't think so.
Time to obtain Ghost and Sentry: Barracks = 60s Ghost Academy = 70s You can build tech lab while Ghost Academy is building, it only takes 25s. Ghost = 40s
Total = 170s
Gateway = 65s Cybernetics Core = 50s Sentry = 42s
Total = 157s, Only 13s slower than teching to Ghost.
Another point, HT Amulet cost = 150/150, 110s. Moebius = 100/100, 80s. Same effect. Why the huge cost differential?
You forget to add that Ghost tech is out of the way of anythign else.
Sentry tech is on the way to EVERYTHING else
How are sentries even comparable to ghosts???
They do completely different things. One deals pseudo damage and negates all casters (i.e. offensive). The other is purely supportive. Comparing the two is like comparing void rays to medivacs.
EDIT: @ Bibdy: So basically you expect Protoss to tech/research storm and also tech Void rays with speed in order to counter ghost? Right. That's fair.
On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote: And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile.
against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray
ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before.
only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays
Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant.
So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings.
And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob.
There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things.
rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base
realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed
assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage
also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat
ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming
On June 12 2010 13:35 Sylvr wrote: It only goes in circles because your argument is completely lopsided.
1. Ghosts don't start off with full energy. They start with 50. EMP costs 75. It takes 50 (game) seconds to get that extra 25 energy. A Terran's first ghost can do a MAX of (not "at least") 2 EMPs after being out for 3 minutes and 20 seconds gametime (+100 energy at 1 every 2 seconds). I'm not going to calculate out the number of EMPs a Terran could potentially do at any given time, but as you can see, you are stacking the odds heavily in the Terran's favor from nowhere.
2. There most certainly IS micro to minimize the impact of an EMP. As was stated SEVERAL times in this thread that you just decide not to acknowledge is that you can spread your forces to minimize or manipulate how many/which units eat the EMP, and/or, you can retreat after the EMP(s) go off- after which, it takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds gametime to replenish the energy used for them.
3. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable.HT and Ghosts are not comparable!!!
Also, "countering" a unit does not mean to completely shut it down. It simply means to make it less effective. A "counter" does NOT need to be a spell or unit. It can simply mean a way to play. You don't say that the "counter" for Cannon Rushes is Workers. If anything, you say that the counter is Micro. The same is true with EMP. The "counter" to it is micro to make it less effective.
1. Moebius. Cheap and fast to upgrade. What, it's 100/100, 80s. Guess what HT have that's identical? Yet it costs 150/150 and 110s for Amulet. If it's an early game clash, armies are small. 1 EMP will hit pretty much all the units. Note range 10 + 2, see them, instant EMP before they can even spread. Later armies, they can spread and have observers to prepare for spreading, but you will have a few ghosts by then, with some having 150+ energy for 2 EMPs.
2. As stated already, retreat will just make things worse. Conc shell and stim = Terran army is a lot faster. It may buy you a few seconds. How much shields and energy can you regen in that time let alone how many zealots you just lost in the retreat?
3. They aren't comparable because one is t1.5 and counters the entire protoss army without any counters including micro, but the other is a t3 much more expensive to tech and research that is meant to counter massed units, but still allow micro to minimize its impact. So yes, i do agree they aren't comparable. One is clearly much much superior in this MU.
Yes, i agree a counter doesn't mean a hard counter shutdown. Kinda like how EMP hard counters immortals, sentry and HT and "soft-counters" every other protoss units. I would just like as protoss to have a viable "soft-counter", for example, why is the EMP effect instantaneous with such a huge range? If it weren't instant, i could actually micro my units out of the aoe and minimize its impact. Don't mention spreading out armies again please, it's not even a viable soft counter yet requires much more micro, refer to #1, a few ghost will negate any spread you have.
EMP in bw was t3, and expensive to research. It's range was also shorter than feedback allowing protoss to have an effective micro counter against it. That was balanced. In Sc2, EMP is apeshit imba.
1. Make up your mind on how far into the game you are. If you are in early game, Ghosts won't have Mobius. Also, they'll only have a few Marauders because they had to cut QUITE a few in order to get the Ghost(s). Also, a radius of 2 means that it covers ROUGHLY a 4x4 square minus the corners. This is the size of a Command Center. What kind of pathetic army do you have ~6+ minutes into the game that 1 EMP is going to hit all of it? This isn't even factoring in that the spell doesn't aim itself. If your army is moving and the Ghost isn't already in range, there is no guarantee that it's going to hit dead center into your army. Also, if you're moving, your army isn't going to be 1 solid ball. It's going to be strung out at least a little.
2. Stop exaggerating the value of Conc shells. First off, if it's an early rush and he went straight for ghosts, then he is NOT going to have that many Marauders simply because the Ghosts are not ONLY taking up an obscene amount of his gas, but they're also using a lot of the time of his Tech Lab Barracks. In a retreat in the early game, he will only be able to slow a few of your units. Even in a later game with a huge MMM ball, he'll only be able to pick off the Zealots in front, and still only as many as he has Marauders. If he waits till the battle is in full swing and you armies are lined up, then the EMP will be next to useless because all of your units' shields are likely already gone. If he OPENS the battle with an EMP, then only a small portion of his Marauders will be attacking anyway and there is no reason for you not to GTFO sacrificing a few Zealots to slow him down.
3. Ghosts don't "counter a Protoss' entire army" unless you're a complete idiot. The reason they aren't comparable is BECAUSE they're different tiers. HTs would be better compared with Ravens than Ghosts. That's like saying Infestors are like Motherships because they can stop units from moving!
Also, I will NOT stop mentioning spreading out because any retard with at least one working hand can do it. You argue that the ability to micro out of Storm to minimize the effect is what makes it OK, but you won't accept that you can micro to minimize the effect of EMP? What the fuck kind of double standard bullshit is that? If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!
You are either the biggest retard or the best troll on these forums. Either way, I'm done trying to educate you. You are the child that got left behind.
On June 12 2010 13:35 Sylvr wrote: It only goes in circles because your argument is completely lopsided.
1. Ghosts don't start off with full energy. They start with 50. EMP costs 75. It takes 50 (game) seconds to get that extra 25 energy. A Terran's first ghost can do a MAX of (not "at least") 2 EMPs after being out for 3 minutes and 20 seconds gametime (+100 energy at 1 every 2 seconds). I'm not going to calculate out the number of EMPs a Terran could potentially do at any given time, but as you can see, you are stacking the odds heavily in the Terran's favor from nowhere.
2. There most certainly IS micro to minimize the impact of an EMP. As was stated SEVERAL times in this thread that you just decide not to acknowledge is that you can spread your forces to minimize or manipulate how many/which units eat the EMP, and/or, you can retreat after the EMP(s) go off- after which, it takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds gametime to replenish the energy used for them.
3. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable.HT and Ghosts are not comparable!!!
Also, "countering" a unit does not mean to completely shut it down. It simply means to make it less effective. A "counter" does NOT need to be a spell or unit. It can simply mean a way to play. You don't say that the "counter" for Cannon Rushes is Workers. If anything, you say that the counter is Micro. The same is true with EMP. The "counter" to it is micro to make it less effective.
1. Moebius. Cheap and fast to upgrade. What, it's 100/100, 80s. Guess what HT have that's identical? Yet it costs 150/150 and 110s for Amulet. If it's an early game clash, armies are small. 1 EMP will hit pretty much all the units. Note range 10 + 2, see them, instant EMP before they can even spread. Later armies, they can spread and have observers to prepare for spreading, but you will have a few ghosts by then, with some having 150+ energy for 2 EMPs.
2. As stated already, retreat will just make things worse. Conc shell and stim = Terran army is a lot faster. It may buy you a few seconds. How much shields and energy can you regen in that time let alone how many zealots you just lost in the retreat?
3. They aren't comparable because one is t1.5 and counters the entire protoss army without any counters including micro, but the other is a t3 much more expensive to tech and research that is meant to counter massed units, but still allow micro to minimize its impact. So yes, i do agree they aren't comparable. One is clearly much much superior in this MU.
Yes, i agree a counter doesn't mean a hard counter shutdown. Kinda like how EMP hard counters immortals, sentry and HT and "soft-counters" every other protoss units. I would just like as protoss to have a viable "soft-counter", for example, why is the EMP effect instantaneous with such a huge range? If it weren't instant, i could actually micro my units out of the aoe and minimize its impact. Don't mention spreading out armies again please, it's not even a viable soft counter yet requires much more micro, refer to #1, a few ghost will negate any spread you have.
EMP in bw was t3, and expensive to research. It's range was also shorter than feedback allowing protoss to have an effective micro counter against it. That was balanced. In Sc2, EMP is apeshit imba.
1. Make up your mind on how far into the game you are. If you are in early game, Ghosts won't have Mobius. Also, they'll only have a few Marauders because they had to cut QUITE a few in order to get the Ghost(s). Also, a radius of 2 means that it covers ROUGHLY a 4x4 square minus the corners. This is the size of a Command Center. What kind of pathetic army do you have ~6+ minutes into the game that 1 EMP is going to hit all of it? This isn't even factoring in that the spell doesn't aim itself. If your army is moving and the Ghost isn't already in range, there is no guarantee that it's going to hit dead center into your army. Also, if you're moving, your army isn't going to be 1 solid ball. It's going to be strung out at least a little.
2. Stop exaggerating the value of Conc shells. First off, if it's an early rush and he went straight for ghosts, then he is NOT going to have that many Marauders simply because the Ghosts are not ONLY taking up an obscene amount of his gas, but they're also using a lot of the time of his Tech Lab Barracks. In a retreat in the early game, he will only be able to slow a few of your units. Even in a later game with a huge MMM ball, he'll only be able to pick off the Zealots in front, and still only as many as he has Marauders. If he waits till the battle is in full swing and you armies are lined up, then the EMP will be next to useless because all of your units' shields are likely already gone. If he OPENS the battle with an EMP, then only a small portion of his Marauders will be attacking anyway and there is no reason for you not to GTFO sacrificing a few Zealots to slow him down.
3. Ghosts don't "counter a Protoss' entire army" unless you're a complete idiot. The reason they aren't comparable is BECAUSE they're different tiers. HTs would be better compared with Ravens than Ghosts. That's like saying Infestors are like Motherships because they can stop units from moving!
Also, I will NOT stop mentioning spreading out because any retard with at least one working hand can do it. You argue that the ability to micro out of Storm to minimize the effect is what makes it OK, but you won't accept that you can micro to minimize the effect of EMP? What the fuck kind of double standard bullshit is that? If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!
You are either the biggest retard or the best troll on these forums. Either way, I'm done trying to educate you. You are the child that got left behind.
I agree with ur point 1.
However, later in the game, if they decide to go bio+ghost, they will easily have enough marauders to take out more than just a few zealots. Also, if the Terran is good at army positioning, their marauders will be in front of their army and can easily take out a good number of stragglers. Keep in mind that Protoss replenishment of their army is still slower than Terran reinforcing even with warpgates. The warp time + cooldown for Protoss warpgate is still longer total than the build time for Terran bio units. Terran bio can easily pick away at the Protoss army and gain a growing advantage that way. Furthermore, retreat can help minimize the effects of EMP, but it's rarely very effective due to concussive shells and stim. The Terran bio ball can easily chase down a Protoss army with stim and conc shells and thus force an engagement. FF can be used, but this brings me to point 3.
Spreading out should be used and you are totally justified in mentioning it. However, even with a good spread, it is not unrealistic to expect the Terran to still have enough ghost/EMP to blanket EMP the same way HT can blanket storm. In fact, it is even more effective and easier to blanket EMP in order to insure every, or almost every, Protoss unit is hit due to the larger AoE of 2, the lack of a cooldown, and the fact that a ghost with full energy can use 2 EMPs in quick succession. If the Terran builds the ghosts early enough (and keeps them alive), it is not unrealistic to assume that at least 1-2 of their ghosts can chain 2 EMPs. In short, spreading helps, but in the mid-late game when Terran can easily afford 2-3+ ghosts, spreading will do next to nothing in terms of preventing EMP simply because Terran can just blanket the P army in EMPs (even with spread). In the early game, if a Protoss gets their entire army EMP'd it's just a micro mistake.
In short, you can't minimize the effects of EMP the same way you can minimize the effects of storm. EMP is instantaneous, storm is not. If you get hit by EMP, you feel the full force of it; if you get hit by a storm, you can minimize the total damage taken.
BTW, Ghost do in fact "counter" every Protoss unit. At least as a soft counter. Dealing essentially 100 instantaneous damage in AoE to only Protoss units is a pretty solid counter don't u think?
I don't really like SilverforceX's wording and such but he makes some valid points that I think you're not quite understanding.
I honestly think EMP can easily be adjusted by simply giving it the same 3 second cooldown that's present on storm.
This way, EMP's effectiveness won't be affected in early game when ghosts will usually only have 1 EMP anyways and it's up to the Protoss to minimze damage. In mid-late game, the Terran can no longer spam/blanket EMPs as easily which will help enable Protoss to better handle EMP.
Ofcourse my points are valid. "You can micro by spreading your army to avoid EMP, like how a terran can micro out of Storm". This a rubbish argument, because 1. EMP is instant in its effect so if it hits, you can't do anything. 2. It's got a huge range to reach any spread of army you want. 3. There's no short cooldown on it, so 1 ghost with enough energy can chain cast 2 EMP by itself. Just having 2 or 3 ghosts ONLY will be enough to cover any spread of protoss army in mid/late game. Just 1 ghost with ONE EMP in early game is enough to reduce the HP of a zealot/sentry/stalker force by a huge margin as well as removing a lot of sentry energy.
It's a strawman argument because it doesn't acknowledge the scale of the spell involved. There's NO WAY TO MICRO effectively to mitigate EMP in any ground engagement. If you (Sylvr) truly believe that it's as effective to micro to avoid EMP as it is for storm, you are the only retard here.
"If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!" ---- Are you just clueless? By the time an army is large enough that spreading out will warrant a few EMP for coverage, is when a Terran can afford a 2nd or 3rd ghost. Do you see protoss bring ONE HT with their army in lategame? Just by getting a few ghosts, you completely annihilate any options of immortals, sentry and HT and you get to instantly damage all the protoss army 30-50% at the start of an engagement. Retreating is a nub reaction, there's no force field (bye bye energy!) to prevent a STIM chase (im not even factoring in conc shells).
If you think you can micro to avoid EMP, i like to see you try it. Heck you can even do it in the Unit Tester on an open field, spread that protoss army into a few groups before attacking. Have just *2* ghosts with 150 energy, see if u can't EMP all the army. It's easy as hell. Hold E, click click click. You just EMPed pretty much every unit..
Now try to micro out of a psi storm. See how much easier that is. Jeezus some ppl are ignorant. It's just mechanics 101. Instant aoe vs 4s dura aoe, much longer range, no cooldown spam-able. Just understand that simple fact first.
I like all the suggestions about spreading out, as if somehow micro allows you to avoid a spell with huge range on a unit that can cloak.
News flash to all protoss players, there's no point trying to think of ways to counter or avoid emp, just deal with it and move on. The faster you realize this the faster you can move on and not ball up in the fetal position every time you see a ghost academy.
On June 12 2010 17:46 SilverforceX wrote: Ofcourse my points are valid. "You can micro by spreading your army to avoid EMP, like how a terran can micro out of Storm". This a rubbish argument, because 1. EMP is instant in its effect so if it hits, you can't do anything. 2. It's got a huge range to reach any spread of army you want. 3. There's no short cooldown on it, so 1 ghost with enough energy can chain cast 2 EMP by itself. Just having 2 or 3 ghosts ONLY will be enough to cover any spread of protoss army in mid/late game. Just 1 ghost with ONE EMP in early game is enough to reduce the HP of a zealot/sentry/stalker force by a huge margin as well as removing a lot of sentry energy.
It's a strawman argument because it doesn't acknowledge the scale of the spell involved. There's NO WAY TO MICRO effectively to mitigate EMP in any ground engagement. If you (Sylvr) truly believe that it's as effective to micro to avoid EMP as it is for storm, you are the only retard here.
"If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!" ---- Are you just clueless? By the time an army is large enough that spreading out will warrant a few EMP for coverage, is when a Terran can afford a 2nd or 3rd ghost. Do you see protoss bring ONE HT with their army in lategame? Just by getting a few ghosts, you completely annihilate any options of immortals, sentry and HT and you get to instantly damage all the protoss army 30-50% at the start of an engagement. Retreating is a nub reaction, there's no force field (bye bye energy!) to prevent a STIM chase (im not even factoring in conc shells).
If you think you can micro to avoid EMP, i like to see you try it. Heck you can even do it in the Unit Tester on an open field, spread that protoss army into a few groups before attacking. Have just *2* ghosts with 150 energy, see if u can't EMP all the army. It's easy as hell. Hold E, click click click. You just EMPed pretty much every unit..
Now try to micro out of a psi storm. See how much easier that is. Jeezus some ppl are ignorant. It's just mechanics 101. Instant aoe vs 4s dura aoe, much longer range, no cooldown spam-able. Just understand that simple fact first.
I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody). Chill out a little bit. My advice is to go download some PvT replays from sc2win or gosugamers. When you're done watching them come back to this thread
From reading your posts you generally make a lot abstract arguments that are not build contextual and claim imbalance. What the opening builds are plays a huge role in early -> mid game EMP usage. It's not a question of pure ability comparisons in a vacuum. For example, void ray openings can really punish the terran if they went fast ghost as opposed to reactor core marine/tank/port. If I didn't know anything about Starcraft I'd think from your posts that there was no way a protoss player could possibly ever win against a terran player who uses EMP but my own experience and both the ladder and tournament results prove otherwise. I'd be curious what high level competitive protoss or terran players think if they're reading this thread. Please post
p.s. plat/diamond doesn't mean you're high level btw
EMP is a really strong ability. It hits a huge area, takes enemy spellcasters out of a fight before it begins, does up to one hundred instant damage against Protoss units, screws Immortals, which immediately lose the feature that makes them worth while. It reveals cloaked units, and it comes from a unit which is mobile, can cloak, is low on the tech tree, and is very powerful against light units. Ghosts are a bit pricey, but EMP doesn't need to be researched, and having a couple ghosts mixed in with your force is usually enough to cover an entire Protoss army, which tend to be smaller, even if the Protoss player uses decent positioning; and since EMP is effective against all Protoss units, a ghost never becomes a useless unit. It really is hard to avoid comparing EMP to Storm, which comes out later and is higher on the tech tree, does less damage, can be microed away from, has a cool-down, hits a smaller area, has a lower range, and is on a slow and vulnerable unit which does nothing without energy (except perhaps for merging into a useless Archon).
I think it's an imbalanced ability, and given that you can't really do anything to counter it, it's also completely uninteresting. I'd like to see it changed so that the Protoss player can pull off some clutch micro to avoid it. Perhaps the EMP could function like a quick Nuclear strike, where a blue nuke-like logo would appear for both players (rather than just the dot), and then a short time later (5 or so game ticks), the EMP would hit. If it is also a channeled ability, it makes Cloak even more vital to the Ghost's performance, and sniping the Ghost before the EMP can drop becomes an intense struggle for the Protoss player. It's also odd that it outranges Feedback: Since Feedback is a single-target ability, I would think that it, and not EMP, would be the ultimate caster counter, which brings me to the next part of my rant: It's really, really hard to target a Ghost with Feedback who is in the middle of a large Terran bio ball. Making the Ghost larger doesn't make any sense, since a Ghost is just a human in a jumpsuit, but I think the area around the ghost could be increased so that a ghost would be separated from a mass of marines by a marine-width or so. This small tweak would make it much easier to identify and target ghosts.
tl;dr: EMP is overpowered and uninteresting. Changing its delivery to a fast Nuke would make it counter-able and intense gameplay-wise.
On June 12 2010 17:46 SilverforceX wrote: Ofcourse my points are valid. "You can micro by spreading your army to avoid EMP, like how a terran can micro out of Storm". This a rubbish argument, because 1. EMP is instant in its effect so if it hits, you can't do anything. 2. It's got a huge range to reach any spread of army you want. 3. There's no short cooldown on it, so 1 ghost with enough energy can chain cast 2 EMP by itself. Just having 2 or 3 ghosts ONLY will be enough to cover any spread of protoss army in mid/late game. Just 1 ghost with ONE EMP in early game is enough to reduce the HP of a zealot/sentry/stalker force by a huge margin as well as removing a lot of sentry energy.
It's a strawman argument because it doesn't acknowledge the scale of the spell involved. There's NO WAY TO MICRO effectively to mitigate EMP in any ground engagement. If you (Sylvr) truly believe that it's as effective to micro to avoid EMP as it is for storm, you are the only retard here.
"If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!" ---- Are you just clueless? By the time an army is large enough that spreading out will warrant a few EMP for coverage, is when a Terran can afford a 2nd or 3rd ghost. Do you see protoss bring ONE HT with their army in lategame? Just by getting a few ghosts, you completely annihilate any options of immortals, sentry and HT and you get to instantly damage all the protoss army 30-50% at the start of an engagement. Retreating is a nub reaction, there's no force field (bye bye energy!) to prevent a STIM chase (im not even factoring in conc shells).
If you think you can micro to avoid EMP, i like to see you try it. Heck you can even do it in the Unit Tester on an open field, spread that protoss army into a few groups before attacking. Have just *2* ghosts with 150 energy, see if u can't EMP all the army. It's easy as hell. Hold E, click click click. You just EMPed pretty much every unit..
Now try to micro out of a psi storm. See how much easier that is. Jeezus some ppl are ignorant. It's just mechanics 101. Instant aoe vs 4s dura aoe, much longer range, no cooldown spam-able. Just understand that simple fact first.
I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody). Keep it up and you'll catch the attention of the mods. Chill out a little bit. You already flamed one person out of this discussion. My advice is to go download some PvT replays from sc2win or gosugamers. When you're done watching them come back to this thread
From reading your posts you generally make a lot abstract arguments that are not build contextual and claim imbalance. What the opening builds are plays a huge role in early -> mid game EMP usage. It's not a question of pure ability comparisons in a vacuum. For example, void ray openings can really punish the terran if they went fast ghost as opposed to reactor core marine/tank/port. If I didn't know anything about Starcraft I'd think from your posts that there was no way a protoss player could possibly ever win against a terran player who uses EMP but my own experience and both the ladder and tournament results prove otherwise. I'd be curious what high level competitive protoss or terran players think if they're reading this thread. Please post
p.s. plat/diamond doesn't mean you're high level btw
1. He just stated his arguments. If you want to recap, EMP is instant. There's nothing you can do as a Protoss player. Storm is DoT damage. You can simply walk away from getting any of your units killed as a Terran player. The APM required to fully spread out your units and be able to have some units attack at the same time is quite large compared to a simple 'E' and click of the Terran's EMP shot rending any casters unless and units weaker when hit. 2. Terrans don't start off with fast ghost but rather Marauders, Marines, and either Factory/Port units. They can incorporate Ghosts during mid/late Ghost regardless of the combination of units the Terran player chooses. Thus, BO openings are irrelevant to the situation. 3. I think you're trolling if you called his opinion useless while admitting that he's a Diamond League player while desiring higher level player's opinion.
Reading through pages and pages of T saying to micro to minimize the emp and P saying its not possible. I'd like to see a replay of a TvP where a P can possibly "outmicro" an emp. Not trying to issue a challenge or anything, maybe I'm just missing something.
On June 12 2010 17:46 SilverforceX wrote: Ofcourse my points are valid. "You can micro by spreading your army to avoid EMP, like how a terran can micro out of Storm". This a rubbish argument, because 1. EMP is instant in its effect so if it hits, you can't do anything. 2. It's got a huge range to reach any spread of army you want. 3. There's no short cooldown on it, so 1 ghost with enough energy can chain cast 2 EMP by itself. Just having 2 or 3 ghosts ONLY will be enough to cover any spread of protoss army in mid/late game. Just 1 ghost with ONE EMP in early game is enough to reduce the HP of a zealot/sentry/stalker force by a huge margin as well as removing a lot of sentry energy.
It's a strawman argument because it doesn't acknowledge the scale of the spell involved. There's NO WAY TO MICRO effectively to mitigate EMP in any ground engagement. If you (Sylvr) truly believe that it's as effective to micro to avoid EMP as it is for storm, you are the only retard here.
"If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!" ---- Are you just clueless? By the time an army is large enough that spreading out will warrant a few EMP for coverage, is when a Terran can afford a 2nd or 3rd ghost. Do you see protoss bring ONE HT with their army in lategame? Just by getting a few ghosts, you completely annihilate any options of immortals, sentry and HT and you get to instantly damage all the protoss army 30-50% at the start of an engagement. Retreating is a nub reaction, there's no force field (bye bye energy!) to prevent a STIM chase (im not even factoring in conc shells).
If you think you can micro to avoid EMP, i like to see you try it. Heck you can even do it in the Unit Tester on an open field, spread that protoss army into a few groups before attacking. Have just *2* ghosts with 150 energy, see if u can't EMP all the army. It's easy as hell. Hold E, click click click. You just EMPed pretty much every unit..
Now try to micro out of a psi storm. See how much easier that is. Jeezus some ppl are ignorant. It's just mechanics 101. Instant aoe vs 4s dura aoe, much longer range, no cooldown spam-able. Just understand that simple fact first.
I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody). Keep it up and you'll catch the attention of the mods. Chill out a little bit. You already flamed one person out of this discussion. My advice is to go download some PvT replays from sc2win or gosugamers. When you're done watching them come back to this thread
From reading your posts you generally make a lot abstract arguments that are not build contextual and claim imbalance. What the opening builds are plays a huge role in early -> mid game EMP usage. It's not a question of pure ability comparisons in a vacuum. For example, void ray openings can really punish the terran if they went fast ghost as opposed to reactor core marine/tank/port. If I didn't know anything about Starcraft I'd think from your posts that there was no way a protoss player could possibly ever win against a terran player who uses EMP but my own experience and both the ladder and tournament results prove otherwise. I'd be curious what high level competitive protoss or terran players think if they're reading this thread. Please post
p.s. plat/diamond doesn't mean you're high level btw
1. He just stated his arguments. If you want to recap, EMP is instant. There's nothing you can do as a Protoss player. Storm is DoT damage. You can simply walk away from getting any of your units killed as a Terran player. The APM required to fully spread out your units and be able to have some units attack at the same time is quite large compared to a simple 'E' and click of the Terran's EMP shot rending any casters unless and units weaker when hit.
Read his post, then re-read mine.
2. Terrans don't start off with fast ghost but rather Marauders, Marines, and either Factory/Port units. They can incorporate Ghosts during mid/late Ghost regardless of the combination of units the Terran player chooses. Thus, BO openings are irrelevant to the situation.
Build orders are irrelevant to ghost usage? Seriously?
3. I think you're trolling if you called his opinion useless while admitting that he's a Diamond League player while desiring higher level player's opinion.
Where did I say his opinion was useless? His posts have lots of technical information albeit it's all completely abstract. Balance isn't a pure comparison of abilities in a vacuum. Also who said he was a diamond level player? No offense but getting diamond level isn't that hard. I can see why you wouldn't think this if you didn't play BW . High level players are people who play in real leagues and tournaments; they are not random D+/C-/C iccup newbies (which includes me) or anyone who qualified for the highest league. My little brother has 40ish apm and he got plat (there wasn't diamond yet) the first 48 hours he played SC2 and he's never played any RTS except CoH and DoW. Just sayin.'
On June 12 2010 18:20 Sets wrote: Why don't they just make EMP research-able much like how you must research Psi Storm for HTs? That or make feedback AoE.
I don't think it would be a good solution. This would mostly effect when a player ist able tu use EMP, but wouldn't change anything afterwards (i.e. in my eyes it would still be slightly to strong, if u manage to get it). Likewise in patch 6 and 7 they didn't increase the cost of EMP/Psi-Storm, but decreased its radius, because it was to strong once it could be used.
Protoss just needs a way to counter ghosts in the very early game.. I have no issues with mid/later-game ghosts.
Terran can easily rush 5-6 maradaurs and one ghost, push and tottally rape any type of protoss army at this time, minor a phoenix rush, but even then the protoss army cant do much with 1-2 phoenixs.
It forces the Protoss to stick to one base spreading around his ramp for a long time whilst he techs up to HT's or something else, but if you fuck up on the positioning your as good as dead.
On June 12 2010 19:32 Kratisto wrote: I'd like to see it changed so that the Protoss player can pull off some clutch micro to avoid it. Perhaps the EMP could function like a quick Nuclear strike, where a blue nuke-like logo would appear for both players (rather than just the dot), and then a short time later (5 or so game ticks), the EMP would hit. If it is also a channeled ability, it makes Cloak even more vital to the Ghost's performance, and sniping the Ghost before the EMP can drop becomes an intense struggle for the Protoss player. It's also odd that it outranges Feedback: Since Feedback is a single-target ability, I would think that it, and not EMP, would be the ultimate caster counter, which brings me to the next part of my rant: It's really, really hard to target a Ghost with Feedback who is in the middle of a large Terran bio ball. Making the Ghost larger doesn't make any sense, since a Ghost is just a human in a jumpsuit, but I think the area around the ghost could be increased so that a ghost would be separated from a mass of marines by a marine-width or so. This small tweak would make it much easier to identify and target ghosts.
tl;dr: EMP is overpowered and uninteresting. Changing its delivery to a fast Nuke would make it counter-able and intense gameplay-wise.
While this is a good start, I don't think its nearly enough. There needs to also be a audio "emp-strike" warning similar to that of nuke strikes. The emp shell then should drop from the sky on the given area. Perhaps if ghosts shone the different radioactive colors of the ghost academy (deep neon blue and red), with would help with the feedback issue. It would also make sense from a lore standpoint. I've been saying for AGES that storm should do bonus damage to armored units. How else are toss suppose to deal with tanks if you can't storm them with templars? It would probibly be a good a idea to increase the radius a bit too.
On June 12 2010 21:29 Kerotan89 wrote: Protoss just needs a way to counter ghosts in the very early game.. I have no issues with mid/later-game ghosts.
Terran can easily rush 5-6 maradaurs and one ghost, push and tottally rape any type of protoss army at this time, minor a phoenix rush, but even then the protoss army cant do much with 1-2 phoenixs. .
I've been having this problem as well. Terran just come to my base with 6 marauders or so and ghost..and 6 ravens before I can do anything. I herd zealots are good against marauders so I've tried getting zealots and sentries and FF the choke. But the ravens just fly over the FF and seeker missle all my zealots. Then he rapes my base with a bunch of auto turrets and emp. Ive tried rushing to pheonix but then he just reactor cores a starport and gets 18 vikings. I fee like there's nothing you can do.
On June 12 2010 21:29 Kerotan89 wrote: Protoss just needs a way to counter ghosts in the very early game.. I have no issues with mid/later-game ghosts.
Terran can easily rush 5-6 maradaurs and one ghost, push and tottally rape any type of protoss army at this time, minor a phoenix rush, but even then the protoss army cant do much with 1-2 phoenixs. .
I've been having this problem as well. Terran just come to my base with 6 marauders or so and ghost..and 6 ravens before I can do anything. I herd zealots are good against marauders so I've tried getting zealots and sentries and FF the choke. But the ravens just fly over the FF and seeker missle all my zealots. Then he rapes my base with a bunch of auto turrets and emp. Ive tried rushing to pheonix but then he just reactor cores a starport and gets 18 vikings. I fee like there's nothing you can do.
If he's getting six ravens AND ghosts you're doing something wrong. That's a lot of expensive tech that will greatly reduce the size of his army in the early game. The counter to Seeker Missile is to just run--Especially if you've set up FF so that he can't Conc Shell half your army (but even so, Seeker Missiles are sloooow and cost a lot of energy, and they aren't ultimately that effective except en masse). Zealots are great against Marauders... If you can hit them. For that, you either need to upgrade Charge or cut off their kiting with Force Fields. As for EMP... well... Yeah.
What if feedback were made smarter? So that you could cast it on an area, or a noncaster, and you'd automatically feedback a caster close to that area. It would've made lockdown more useful in sc1. Just a thought to deal with issue #2.
Blizzard probably won't change anythiing right now though. edit: I'm not sure emp should be nerfed.
On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote: And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile.
against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray
ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before.
only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays
Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant.
So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings.
And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob.
There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things.
rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base
realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed
assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage
also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat
ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming
No, the plan revolves around a long-ass game against a Terran player. How many PvTs have you played that lasted 20+ minutes? I dunno about you, but it happens to me ALL the time. They love this 1/1/1 'counter all possible early Protoss pushes in one build' stuff, sit back defensively, create their beloved gigantic bio/tank/viking army of death, then commence 1a'ing.
It doesn't matter if he spots it. I WANT him to spot it, so he builds Vikings, at which point I just Psi Storm the fuck out of the things (and the Marines) when the armies collide and then the ONLY two threats to my Void Rays are obliterated. Thors? Pfft. Weak damage to armoured and a little splash isn't going to beat how much damage VRs do to Thors. Battlecruisers? Void Rays eat BCs for breakfast (if there's no Marines or Vikings nearby...oh wait!). Ravens? Just chew up the Auto Turrets and move on. Nothing else can even hit them.
Its not my problem if you don't want to exploit this, and just keep dealing with getting your ground army crushed day in and day out by Terrans EMPing your blob, sniping your Collossi with Vikings and slowly crawling their way up to your front door with Siege Tanks. Have fun with that.
And even if he spots it, you think he's going to have Missile Turrets EVERYWHERE to stop my Void Rays poking in and charging to full off some building in the corner of his base? So naieve and so unwilling to try things out. You people are your own worst enemy.
Anyone to continue the ridiculous comparisons between storm and emp . If you are comparing them you need to compare relative damage instead of absolute. Yes in absolute terms emp appears to do more damage, but when blanket a protoss army with emp the damage to your force is nowhere close to the damage of a bioball getting hit with storm. For the very reason that you MUST run away from storm the emp is largely countered. You can still keep coming if you choose through the emp when your protoss and have a good number of hitpoints left, if you dont run out of that storm your entire bioball gets smoked. When I play protoss and hit a good storm the devestation is MUCH greater then when I get off a good EMP, the battle is far from over in the EMP scenario because the protoss just have tons of unaffected hp and its not that difficult to amass a really big army of protoss units, its not like you need to have an army twice the size to win because of getting empd.
Try this not unlikely scenario for bio/ghosts. Blanket Emp the front line, stim, get stormed 1 tick, run out, now entire protoss army is at 60% hp and the terran marines are below 50%, need to stim again taking them down to 30% hp and mauraders down to 50%, and if the toss has another storm up his sleeve they will all die instantly. Not to mention the protoss can certainly do better then 1 tick if they place the storms well. Of course there will certainly be some tanks, maybe medvacs but not that many because of all the gas going into ghosts for blanket emp.
Anyway these situations are totally contrived and will never occur like this, but the point is, the absolute comparison of storm to emp is flawed in that they effect the opposing races in different degrees.
On June 12 2010 23:51 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: What if feedback were made smarter? So that you could cast it on an area, or a noncaster, and you'd automatically feedback a caster close to that area. It would've made lockdown more useful in sc1. Just a thought to deal with issue #2.
Blizzard probably won't change anythiing right now though. edit: I'm not sure emp should be nerfed.
What if FF was automatic? What if 250mm was automatic to massive stuff? What if storm was auto-matic? what if any energy ability was autonmatic? I sense overpoweredness in automaticness.
On June 12 2010 19:13 space_yes wrote: I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody).
Actually if you did read my posts, im not the first to be a jerk. I respond to jerks who random insult me in a jerky manner however, that i do admit.
All my points are valid and isn't reliance on BO because 1. Ghost Academy is extremely cheap and low tech after barracks. It's 50 gas. Peanuts really, that's 1 stalker worth. 2. Ghost complement all terran forces well, bio or mech. The fact that the majority of terran do so well without even using ghosts is a testament to how OP ghost can be when added to an already well performing terran army.
As attested by others, EMP is just imba due to its long range, instant effect and no microing to minimize its impact. Fungal Growth is similar but nowhere near the potency since it doesn't strip all energy and have the longest spell range, so in that sense its quite balanced. The difference between the aoe spells is quite drastic and only EMP really stand out as totally imba.The points have already been well discussed.
All it needs is a few tweaks: reduce range (10 is too much, makes it able to counter everything that is a threat, i.e. feedback, neural parasite etc), timing. Ghosts just pop out way too fast as was shown by my example of Sentry timing. If terran wanted to get a quick ghosts, it will pop out only a little bit after a Sentry would.. and it comes with EMP without requiring any research. Just let me remind those few once again, in BW, EMP was from the science vessel. It's a T3 unit, and EMP required a very expensive research to obtain. The vessel couldn't cloak, it stood out, and... importantly, it's range was shorter than feedback allowing a good protoss to micro feedback to counter EMP, yet it was still powerful. Look at how its implemented now and any reasonable person would have to conclude its imba.
Btw. Add 2 extra units that ghosts also completely shutdown, DT and observers. EMP reveals cloaked units for ages.. why does it need that effect as well? It's an AOE feedback, storm and scan combined. Stupid.
On June 12 2010 19:13 space_yes wrote: I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody).
Actually if you did read my posts, im not the first to be a jerk. I respond to jerks who random insult me in a jerky manner however, that i do admit.
All my points are valid and isn't reliance on BO because 1. Ghost Academy is extremely cheap and low tech after barracks. It's 50 gas. Peanuts really, that's 1 stalker worth. 2. Ghost complement all terran forces well, bio or mech. The fact that the majority of terran do so well without even using ghosts is a testament to how OP ghost can be when added to an already well performing terran army.
As attested by others, EMP is just imba due to its long range, instant effect and no microing to minimize its impact. Fungal Growth is similar but nowhere near the potency since it doesn't strip all energy and have the longest spell range, so in that sense its quite balanced. The difference between the aoe spells is quite drastic and only EMP really stand out as totally imba.The points have already been well discussed.
All it needs is a few tweaks: reduce range (10 is too much, makes it able to counter everything that is a threat, i.e. feedback, neural parasite etc), timing. Ghosts just pop out way too fast as was shown by my example of Sentry timing. If terran wanted to get a quick ghosts, it will pop out only a little bit after a Sentry would.. and it comes with EMP without requiring any research. Just let me remind those few once again, in BW, EMP was from the science vessel. It's a T3 unit, and EMP required a very expensive research to obtain. The vessel couldn't cloak, it stood out, and... importantly, it's range was shorter than feedback allowing a good protoss to micro feedback to counter EMP, yet it was still powerful. Look at how its implemented now and any reasonable person would have to conclude its imba.
Btw. Add 2 extra units that ghosts also completely shutdown, DT and observers. EMP reveals cloaked units for ages.. why does it need that effect as well? It's an AOE feedback, storm and scan combined. Stupid.
People have been complaining about ghosts since the beta came out. I'm going to summarize by quoting from some of the previous EMP threads, I think the first two really nail this thread:
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
Yeah but this is the beta, where balance is supposed to be worked out. There's no harm in discussing whether something is imbalanced or not. If SC1 players blamed themselves when they lost to 4pool cuz spawning pool was 150 minerals... yeah.
Read this thread. There's no proof of anything posted anywhere. There's pseudo mathematical discussions about cost and timing, and then there's 6 pages of people posting their feelings and experiences. It's a terrible discussion with nothing objective whatsoever.
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
On March 03 2010 23:30 IdrA wrote: emp is not overpowered, if t didnt have emp tvp would be literally impossible. chances are you're not abusing the early game hard enough and so you're playing the mid game from behind, which makes everything seem more powerful than it actually is.
On March 16 2010 23:24 IdrA wrote: its not about entirely avoiding, thats not gonna happen, its about minimizing damage protoss army is much, much stronger than the terran army and killing every ghost is impractical vs a good terran. obviously it can happen if they make a mistake or you catch them off guard but really it shouldnt. theyre supposed to be able to emp you, and you can take emps on portions of your army and still win easily. even after an emp a handful of collosus' will decimate a bio army, as will 1 temp that manages to avoid an emp.
On March 17 2010 06:29 Louder wrote: I do fast EMP builds all the time, and I still get stomped routinely vs P, and I'm #1 in my division at about 2040 points. Ghosts are not cheap, and they slow other tech and production of other barracks units with their high cost and long build time.
Players who go 2 gate robo / expand, then dt while taking a high yield, into mass charge-lot + mass temp beat me pretty often. They can make so many goddamned probes and make me waste EMPs to spot DTs while they just add more and more gates and more and more probes, steadily making units a few at a time... by the time I can actually mount an attack i get proper fucked by a milion speed zeals + immortals and templars.
Granted most of the posts occurred multiple patches ago so some of the arguments are weaker now but they're not entirely without merit. Mostly what I get when I read this thread is a bunch of protoss complaining without any substantial arguments that EMP is imba. The most popular one "EMP is instant and has too long of a range" is basically "I can't avoid EMPs please nerf" misses the larger game balance completely. You're not supposed to avoid the EMPs that's why it's instant cast with a long range Any serious discussion of EMP balance has to take into account all of the other nuances of the MU and that's totally absent in this thread. I really hope Blizzard isn't reading this.
The merits of comparing storm to EMP, or ghosts to high templars, or any Terran unit directly to Protoss unit are very limited. One of the things that makes starcraft (1&2) such great games is that the races are SO unique, (Think of Age of Empires, while good, it was always doomed to get stale).
That being said, we still have our EMP discussion. My personal suggestion is to make feedback range 10, and make EMP range 8 (+2 w/ radius) so it comes down to straight micro over who counters who in that particular fight.
On June 12 2010 19:13 space_yes wrote: I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody).
Actually if you did read my posts, im not the first to be a jerk. I respond to jerks who random insult me in a jerky manner however, that i do admit.
All my points are valid and isn't reliance on BO because 1. Ghost Academy is extremely cheap and low tech after barracks. It's 50 gas. Peanuts really, that's 1 stalker worth. 2. Ghost complement all terran forces well, bio or mech. The fact that the majority of terran do so well without even using ghosts is a testament to how OP ghost can be when added to an already well performing terran army.
As attested by others, EMP is just imba due to its long range, instant effect and no microing to minimize its impact. Fungal Growth is similar but nowhere near the potency since it doesn't strip all energy and have the longest spell range, so in that sense its quite balanced. The difference between the aoe spells is quite drastic and only EMP really stand out as totally imba.The points have already been well discussed.
All it needs is a few tweaks: reduce range (10 is too much, makes it able to counter everything that is a threat, i.e. feedback, neural parasite etc), timing. Ghosts just pop out way too fast as was shown by my example of Sentry timing. If terran wanted to get a quick ghosts, it will pop out only a little bit after a Sentry would.. and it comes with EMP without requiring any research. Just let me remind those few once again, in BW, EMP was from the science vessel. It's a T3 unit, and EMP required a very expensive research to obtain. The vessel couldn't cloak, it stood out, and... importantly, it's range was shorter than feedback allowing a good protoss to micro feedback to counter EMP, yet it was still powerful. Look at how its implemented now and any reasonable person would have to conclude its imba.
Btw. Add 2 extra units that ghosts also completely shutdown, DT and observers. EMP reveals cloaked units for ages.. why does it need that effect as well? It's an AOE feedback, storm and scan combined. Stupid.
People have been complaining about ghosts since the beta came out. I'm going to summarize by quoting from some of the previous EMP threads, I think the first two really nail this thread:
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
Yeah but this is the beta, where balance is supposed to be worked out. There's no harm in discussing whether something is imbalanced or not. If SC1 players blamed themselves when they lost to 4pool cuz spawning pool was 150 minerals... yeah.
Read this thread. There's no proof of anything posted anywhere. There's pseudo mathematical discussions about cost and timing, and then there's 6 pages of people posting their feelings and experiences. It's a terrible discussion with nothing objective whatsoever.
On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote: I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault.
Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game.
Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
On March 03 2010 23:30 IdrA wrote: emp is not overpowered, if t didnt have emp tvp would be literally impossible. chances are you're not abusing the early game hard enough and so you're playing the mid game from behind, which makes everything seem more powerful than it actually is.
On March 16 2010 23:24 IdrA wrote: its not about entirely avoiding, thats not gonna happen, its about minimizing damage protoss army is much, much stronger than the terran army and killing every ghost is impractical vs a good terran. obviously it can happen if they make a mistake or you catch them off guard but really it shouldnt. theyre supposed to be able to emp you, and you can take emps on portions of your army and still win easily. even after an emp a handful of collosus' will decimate a bio army, as will 1 temp that manages to avoid an emp.
On March 17 2010 06:29 Louder wrote: I do fast EMP builds all the time, and I still get stomped routinely vs P, and I'm #1 in my division at about 2040 points. Ghosts are not cheap, and they slow other tech and production of other barracks units with their high cost and long build time.
Players who go 2 gate robo / expand, then dt while taking a high yield, into mass charge-lot + mass temp beat me pretty often. They can make so many goddamned probes and make me waste EMPs to spot DTs while they just add more and more gates and more and more probes, steadily making units a few at a time... by the time I can actually mount an attack i get proper fucked by a milion speed zeals + immortals and templars.
Granted most of the posts occurred multiple patches ago so some of the arguments are weaker now but they're not entirely without merit. Mostly what I get when I read this thread is a bunch of protoss complaining without any substantial arguments that EMP is imba. The most popular one "EMP is instant and has too long of a range" is basically "I can't avoid EMPs please nerf" misses the larger game balance completely. You're not supposed to avoid the EMPs that's why it's instant cast with a long range Any serious discussion of EMP balance has to take into account all of the other nuances of the MU and that's totally absent in this thread. I really hope Blizzard isn't reading this.
EDIT: clarity
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote: And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile.
against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray
ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before.
only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays
Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant.
So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings.
And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob.
There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things.
rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base
realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed
assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage
also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat
ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming
No, the plan revolves around a long-ass game against a Terran player. How many PvTs have you played that lasted 20+ minutes? I dunno about you, but it happens to me ALL the time. They love this 1/1/1 'counter all possible early Protoss pushes in one build' stuff, sit back defensively, create their beloved gigantic bio/tank/viking army of death, then commence 1a'ing.
It doesn't matter if he spots it. I WANT him to spot it, so he builds Vikings, at which point I just Psi Storm the fuck out of the things (and the Marines) when the armies collide and then the ONLY two threats to my Void Rays are obliterated. Thors? Pfft. Weak damage to armoured and a little splash isn't going to beat how much damage VRs do to Thors. Battlecruisers? Void Rays eat BCs for breakfast (if there's no Marines or Vikings nearby...oh wait!). Ravens? Just chew up the Auto Turrets and move on. Nothing else can even hit them.
Its not my problem if you don't want to exploit this, and just keep dealing with getting your ground army crushed day in and day out by Terrans EMPing your blob, sniping your Collossi with Vikings and slowly crawling their way up to your front door with Siege Tanks. Have fun with that.
And even if he spots it, you think he's going to have Missile Turrets EVERYWHERE to stop my Void Rays poking in and charging to full off some building in the corner of his base? So naieve and so unwilling to try things out. You people are your own worst enemy.
u must be playing some horrible ppl that just turtles 24/7. do all terran u play turtle till 200/200? if the terran is turtlin up like crazy u can just expand all over n build w/e u want to win
i dont think u get that once he has ghost the chance of u getting storm off in major engagement is quite low. with storm gone there goes ur way of dealing with marines n viking
there is so many flaws in ur plan that the terran has to be extremely bad for it to work
for u to think that the terran isnt going built turrets when he c ray tells me u r prob playing ppl in bronze -.-. any decent player for any race will at the latest push out with a 60~ army. with u teching to ray speed, ull be dead by then
since this thread is about emp play n not void ray + turtling terran this is my last post responding to u.
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
agreed. ghost rush is ineffective bc even if u destroy the toss army, ur own army wont be big enough to kill the toss bef reinforcement. ghost is dangerous in the mid game when terran cut a few marine/marauder for a few ghost n push out then
the reason rays nerfed was bc it punished those who dont scout/micro too hard n blizz prob felt it made ppl rage quit lol. doubt it was nerfed bc it was op. tester said in a interview with artosis bef the nerf that ppl who do void ray rushes r free wins bc they r so easy to play against
the problem with ghost is that even with micro/scout it still decimate any toss army
Granted most of the posts occurred multiple patches ago so some of the arguments are weaker now but they're not entirely without merit. Mostly what I get when I read this thread is a bunch of protoss complaining without any substantial arguments that EMP is imba. The most popular one "EMP is instant and has too long of a range" is basically "I can't avoid EMPs please nerf" misses the larger game balance completely. You're not supposed to avoid the EMPs that's why it's instant cast with a long range Any serious discussion of EMP balance has to take into account all of the other nuances of the MU and that's totally absent in this thread. I really hope Blizzard isn't reading this.
EDIT: clarity
Here's a few arguments.
1) Difference in effort. Adding ghosts requires the Terran player to add one step to his game, pressing E and clicking on the enemy (which is a pretty simple step). The Protoss player has to spread out his army (very complex if he's on the move), try to feedback the ghost and possibly retreat if things get out of hand. It's something like a 4-1 complexity increase which is pretty much the definition of imbalance (where one player will consistently beat players of an equal skill level because of a mechanic).
2) Ghosts fit too well into a marauder ball. First they EMP, and then they sit in the ball and attack with the same range, damage and speed as a marauder. It requires no extra micro to use them besides actually EMPing stuff. They are also hard to see in a moving ball which makes it hard to deal with them with feedback, even if you do get in there with an HT before they can EMP it.
3) EMP in SC1 was on a tier 3 unit that costs more gas than a ghost and sticks out, had less range, required an enormous investment in research to use and cost more energy and it was still good. If it had all those drawbacks before, maybe its a little too good now.
On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote: And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile.
against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray
ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before.
only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays
Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant.
So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings.
And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob.
There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things.
rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base
realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed
assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage
also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat
ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming
No, the plan revolves around a long-ass game against a Terran player. How many PvTs have you played that lasted 20+ minutes? I dunno about you, but it happens to me ALL the time. They love this 1/1/1 'counter all possible early Protoss pushes in one build' stuff, sit back defensively, create their beloved gigantic bio/tank/viking army of death, then commence 1a'ing.
It doesn't matter if he spots it. I WANT him to spot it, so he builds Vikings, at which point I just Psi Storm the fuck out of the things (and the Marines) when the armies collide and then the ONLY two threats to my Void Rays are obliterated. Thors? Pfft. Weak damage to armoured and a little splash isn't going to beat how much damage VRs do to Thors. Battlecruisers? Void Rays eat BCs for breakfast (if there's no Marines or Vikings nearby...oh wait!). Ravens? Just chew up the Auto Turrets and move on. Nothing else can even hit them.
Its not my problem if you don't want to exploit this, and just keep dealing with getting your ground army crushed day in and day out by Terrans EMPing your blob, sniping your Collossi with Vikings and slowly crawling their way up to your front door with Siege Tanks. Have fun with that.
And even if he spots it, you think he's going to have Missile Turrets EVERYWHERE to stop my Void Rays poking in and charging to full off some building in the corner of his base? So naieve and so unwilling to try things out. You people are your own worst enemy.
u must be playing some horrible ppl that just turtles 24/7. do all terran u play turtle till 200/200? if the terran is turtlin up like crazy u can just expand all over n build w/e u want to win
i dont think u get that once he has ghost the chance of u getting storm off in major engagement is quite low. with storm gone there goes ur way of dealing with marines n viking
there is so many flaws in ur plan that the terran has to be extremely bad for it to work
for u to think that the terran isnt going built turrets when he c ray tells me u r prob playing ppl in bronze -.-. any decent player for any race will at the latest push out with a 60~ army. with u teching to ray speed, ull be dead by then
since this thread is about emp play n not void ray + turtling terran this is my last post responding to u.
I don't think you get that I've used it, and won, while you haven't used it, are outright denying the existence of a viable strategy, something that is so plainly simple and obvious (kill AA units, send in Air units, capitalize on opponent's inability to create counters to said air units, win), for what? Because you don't think its gonna work in reality?
Again, you're your own worst enemy here. I don't need to convince you and there's no a hope in hell of you convincing me this tactic doesn't work. I've got something up my sleeve that's worked plenty of times in the past and I'm trying to explain it to people so they can use it. Not my problem if you don't want to use it.
Only reason its been brought up, and in this thread, is because THIS is what EMP makes me resort to.
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing
Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges.
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing
Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges.
its the same when their army marches into ur base after ur 8th min army gets ownt by emp
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing
Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges.
its the same when their army marches into ur base after ur 8th min army gets ownt by emp
If you lose to some T charging you with marines and ghosts 8 mins in the game, i submit that it is your fault. It is easily countered. As with marauder/ghost. It is no way harder to counter than VRs (in their current form).
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing
Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges.
its the same when their army marches into ur base after ur 8th min army gets ownt by emp
If you lose to some T charging you with marines and ghosts 8 mins in the game, i submit that it is your fault. It is easily countered. As with marauder/ghost. It is no way harder to counter than VRs (in their current form).
a handful of marine/marauder+ ghost will decimate anything toss can bring out at that pt
funny how u say marine/ghost or marauder/ghost, wat makes u think terran wont get some of both? nothing out of the norm for terran to be producing outta 4-5 barracks at that pt
so how would u "counter" that marine/marauder/ghost push?
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
Void Rays are being used aggressively against terrans now, using their range and speed to trap a terran player in their base. This is pretty fun for the protoss player but at a variety of skill levels it is too difficult for the terran player to stop, even if the player sees it coming with good scouting. We think a slight range reduction will help with this match-up without doing too much damage to other matchups.
This is the reasoning behind the VR nerf Blizzard gave. Notice it says "trap the player in the base" and "too difficult to stop even if the player sees it coming" - NOTHING about ending the match in <7 minuts. Stop making up stuff.
Regarding your quotes: 1) They are old (1 from this month, the rest are 2 - TWO months old) 2) They don't say what you want them to say; i.e. chill is more about how we should approach the game as being fixed and the flaw is more realisticly due to the players. But the difference between what the attention required to use a ghost to its optimum and what it requires to work around it is without question VERY big.
I don't think I have said ANYWHERE that I wanted it to be hard-counterable. I want it to require the same attention as working around it does - which is why I advocate letting it stay as is, except giving it a projectile so it is dodgeable. One could argue that it would be too much of a hit or miss which I will partly agree with - thus the solution by making it "tick" sorta like storm is imho decent. Again, the reason WHY everyone in favor of a change is drilling on the "equal payout for equal work" is because that is one of the standards blizzard themselves uses.
go watch brat tvp replays from last zotac. mass rines with couple ghosts + medivacs > everything huk could come up with. including dts and 4gate contain. he doesnt scout, doesnt adapt his pvt build in the whole tourney from what ive seen and his reaper does 0 damage. yet marines + medics + ghosts synergy destroys every p combo, especially shocking is the demolition of a bigger 4gate army while losing only couple marines. not dissing him for abusing it but its just sad to watch. wish i could provide more details but shit patch broke replay function :/
I would be fine with EMP if it still had a projectile, giving me the chance to dodge it.
I don't think very many (decent) Protoss just sit there army in a ball and wait to engage. I also don't think very many Terrans shoot EMPs off like a high-school boy in the girls locker room. They wait until the engagement happens, and then they EMP the army. This is what I have trouble with, because in this instance it is 100% unavoidable.
So what do you do? You're left in a position where a) you can't attack in and b) they don't have to move out until they have a well-rounded army that can hold it's own on a slow push out of his base.
As Protoss, if they go Ghosts, (it feels) like you have 2 options: attack before EMP (not likely to outproduce a MULEing Terran early enough, unless he was greedy), or option 2: wait for him to move out and hope you can attack him while he's back at his base macroing.
I'm sure it's fun for the T, but sitting in a Terran-dictated stalemate until it's time to lose isn't very fun for P.
PvT as a whole is a balanced match-up. Lots of diversity and for the most part, entertaining to play. It just loses some of that entertainment when Terran busts out a unit/spell that you have nothing you can do about.
I don't know if EMP is really imbalanced within the context of the matchup, but terran having the range advantage on ground, air AND spells, all on mid tech units, does feel a bit unfair.
On June 13 2010 06:04 bls wrote: go watch brat tvp replays from last zotac. mass rines with couple ghosts + medivacs > everything huk could come up with. including dts and 4gate contain. he doesnt scout, doesnt adapt his pvt build in the whole tourney from what ive seen and his reaper does 0 damage. yet marines + medics + ghosts synergy destroys every p combo, especially shocking is the demolition of a bigger 4gate army while losing only couple marines. not dissing him for abusing it but its just sad to watch. wish i could provide more details but shit patch broke replay function :/
Like the 30 min game vs hasu orbs, where brat slowly out econs hasu? Or perhaps 9 min game where HuK raped him in 9 mins with an immo push. None of his games prove anything except the player that played better won. I'm through with this VR = ghost debate. If you can't see the massive difference between the way VR rushing effected tvp with the way ghosts do, than you are truly blinded by bias. The burden of prof is on the person claiming imbalance. Again, there hasn't been a shread of convincing evidence presented on this thread. As I stated earlier in posts i'm sure you didn't read on this thread. I do think EMP is comparable to storm in one prime way. Both can't be hard countered. You can micro to minimize the impact, but can not avoid it all together. Before one of you go one about "but the ghost range makes it impossible to storm," Maybe you should watch to replay bls so kindly suggested, where brat gets stormed by hasu all game long. As it turns out, you don't need to hard counter storm in order to beat a player using it, anymore than with EMP.
On June 13 2010 07:08 yarkO wrote: PvT as a whole is a balanced match-up. Lots of diversity and for the most part, entertaining to play. It just loses some of that entertainment when Terran busts out a unit/spell that you have nothing you can do about.
Exactly. It's not about Terran or EMP being OP or imbalanced; It's not a Ghost vs HT (or any Toss unit) discussion. It's simply about a unit/spell that Toss has no solutions for.
Let's stop using the word "counter", because that's a really shitty gaming mindset to have
I agree with several of the above posters who state that PvT as a whole is balanced
There's a lot of back and forth aggression in PvT because of the various timing windows ushered by the emergence of units like Immortal, Ghost, Colossus, and even the reactor marine/tank push
Generally in a standard, well-played game the timing where the ghost can truly be "OP" is very very short (if not non-existent altogether). Having certain "deviations" from your bread and butter play is like having one or two ghosts mixed in with your bioball... or having 1 or 2 immortals mixed in with your toss infantry ball... to claim that these deviations make the game completely out of control is just hyperbole
For those still touting the ghost > high templar imbalance...
Having that match-up means the protoss player CHOSE to build a twilight council -> tech to archives WITHOUT scouting the terran main! The robotics facility at least offers the observer so you can scout the early 2~3 ghost aggression but committing oneself to the T3 templar then complaining about eating EMP is pretty ridiculous.
*** To the bit about the voidray speed upgrade... at what timing in the late-game will you research that upgrade? Getting that fleet beacon and upgrade is a hefty investment / considerable risk considering you and the opponent are having a fairly "even" game! So for a toss player to suddenly invest that... is almost incomprehensible to me (replay please?)
i think most of us agree that playing around storm is many many times easier than playing around emp if u want to compare them
the diff betw ray rush n ghost is with ray rush all u gotta do is scout n build some marine/viking+micro while ghost means u scout n split the army to make him use 1 extra emp
nobody is saying ray = ghost, ppl r just stating the double standard blizz is handling the situation with. they basically saying we gunna help u micro against A but not with B when A is easier to micro against. the only thing rays do in tvp is slow the development of the ground army since it forces the terran to get air to move out. u have to put into account that toss spent all that resource on stargate+rays while neglecting to grow the ground army
also stating specific games doesnt usually mean much. just like statistics, they can be skewed to prove w/e pt u wanna prove
Um. If you scout ghosts, there's still absolutely nothing you can do to stop them from EMP'ing. THIS is the problem Toss players have with EMP ... there's absolutely nothing Toss can do to prevent EMP from going off and doing significant to severe damage.
HT build is preferred to Robo since everything that comes out of the Robo is hard countered by T very quickly and easily.
On June 13 2010 11:20 whoopadeedoo wrote: Um. If you scout ghosts, there's still absolutely nothing you can do to stop them from EMP'ing. THIS is the problem Toss players have with EMP ... there's absolutely nothing Toss can do to prevent EMP from going off and doing significant to severe damage.
Exactly. If you see that the opponent is going for EMP there just isn't really much that you can do about it. They didn't put themselves at a significant economic disadvantage (they are behind about 3 marauders, and the ghost offsets one of those with similar damage). They didn't have to go out of their way to tech to it. They don't even have to use a rare building for it. There are generally fairly large disadvantages for anything that powerful. In SC1 emp required a tier 3 unit with an expensive upgrade from a fairly exclusive tech building. If your opponent is trying to get this by any reasonably early point in the game you can take advantage of the resources he had to put into it. Ghosts are a tier 1.5 unit and EMP doesn't need an upgrade, so all a terran player needs to get them is 300 minerals and 200 gas, and some of that cost gives you a unit that is around as good at combat as a marauder.
On June 13 2010 11:17 trucejl wrote: i think most of us agree that playing around storm is many many times easier than playing around emp if u want to compare them
the diff betw ray rush n ghost is with ray rush all u gotta do is scout n build some marine/viking+micro while ghost means u scout n split the army to make him use 1 extra emp
nobody is saying ray = ghost, ppl r just stating the double standard blizz is handling the situation with. they basically saying we gunna help u micro against A but not with B when A is easier to micro against. the only thing rays do in tvp is slow the development of the ground army since it forces the terran to get air to move out. u have to put into account that toss spent all that resource on stargate+rays while neglecting to grow the ground army
also stating specific games doesnt usually mean much. just like statistics, they can be skewed to prove w/e pt u wanna prove
Obviously your suppose to able to counter voidrays, and by counter I mean kill. If don't kill or otherwise force the retreat of a VR, it destroys your base and you lose the game. Blizzard and many others saw that it was relatively difficult to micro against VR, compared to the skill level that was required to build them and attack. Thus amongst the lower ranks, VR commonly came to the T players base, destroyed all the units he built to counter them, and then his CC. Blizzard wanted to help players that built the units designed to stop this. The flaw in the VR compared to ghost logic, is it assumes that your suppose to able counter, as in avoid, EMP. It is not in anyway obvious that this is what blizzard wants, or is what is suppose to happen. It is actually quite apparent that landing an EMP is suppose to be fairly easy. Just as it is to land storm or fungal growth (you can move out of storm, that doesn't make it ineffective or hard to land). I didn't bring up games randomly to support my point. I asked for ANY evidence that EMP made it impossible for protoss to win fights where it was dropped, or was otherwise clearly op. I was referred to Brat's games from the zotac cup. Out of the 2 games i watched, it became blatantly obvious that the remarks about unstoppable ghost pushes were utter BS. So I ask again: is there really any convincing evidence that EMP is overpowered? Both replays and statistics so far have not shown anything even mildly convincing IMO. You say replays and statics aren't valid...compared to what? this unsubstantiated whining?
On June 13 2010 11:17 trucejl wrote: i think most of us agree that playing around storm is many many times easier than playing around emp if u want to compare them
the diff betw ray rush n ghost is with ray rush all u gotta do is scout n build some marine/viking+micro while ghost means u scout n split the army to make him use 1 extra emp
nobody is saying ray = ghost, ppl r just stating the double standard blizz is handling the situation with. they basically saying we gunna help u micro against A but not with B when A is easier to micro against. the only thing rays do in tvp is slow the development of the ground army since it forces the terran to get air to move out. u have to put into account that toss spent all that resource on stargate+rays while neglecting to grow the ground army
also stating specific games doesnt usually mean much. just like statistics, they can be skewed to prove w/e pt u wanna prove
Obviously your suppose to able to counter voidrays, and by counter I mean kill. If don't kill or otherwise force the retreat of a VR, it destroys your base and you lose the game. Blizzard and many others saw that it was relatively difficult to micro against VR, compared to the skill level that was required to build them and attack. Thus amongst the lower ranks, VR commonly came to the T players base, destroyed all the units he built to counter them, and then his CC. Blizzard wanted to help players that built the units designed to stop this. The flaw in the VR compared to ghost logic, is it assumes that your suppose to able counter, as in avoid, EMP. It is not in anyway obvious that this is what blizzard wants, or is what is suppose to happen. It is actually quite apparent that landing an EMP is suppose to be fairly easy. Just as it is to land storm or fungal growth (you can move out of storm, that doesn't make it ineffective or hard to land). I didn't bring up games randomly to support my point. I asked for ANY evidence that EMP made it impossible for protoss to win fights where it was dropped, or was otherwise clearly op. I was referred to Brat's games from the zotac cup. Out of the 2 games i watched, it became blatantly obvious that the remarks about unstoppable ghost pushes were utter BS. So I ask again: is there really any convincing evidence that EMP is overpowered? Both replays and statistics so far have not shown anything even mildly convincing IMO. You say replays and statics aren't valid...compared to what? this unsubstantiated whining?
so wat ur saying is toss needs to fight with no shield n have no "counter" to emp? if ur ok with some things in a supposely "balanced" game have no opposition then that is a problem in itself. also landing emp is way easier than storm bc of its range n mobility of the ghost. but with "counter" i mean lessening the effect of something not avoid. there IS no way to avoid emp at least not the way u can with storm. if the terran wants to emp something, hes gunna get it
also landing a storm n emp is very diff. landing a storm means u hit them but like u said ppl move out of the spot most of the time. hence it doesnt do its full 80 dmg making it ineffective. most of the time toss will be happy to be able to do 40 dmg. all the while emp is an automatic instant -50 most of the time(toss army contains mostly zealot n stalker all the time) however there is not much point in comparing storm to emp since most unbiased ppl c the clear diff
replays n statistic is irrelevant bc of the content in which it is used. ppl will only point out spots where it benefits their argument. this happens everywhere, if u dont understand that then u need to be around more things. u say all this emp stuff is "unsubstantiated" whining but ppl dont whine out of nothing. maybe 1-2 ppl do bc they r just bad but when a large amount of ppl argue over it, there is something wrong 1 way or another.
with the ray situation, with the ppl complaining. many were able to say if u do A u will do quite well against it. there is no such solution for emp. hell there is something of that nature for everything else in the game right now. that is the very definition of balance. ppl saying feedback, phoenix, spreading out army have obv not tried doing so n do not realize how much it fails. the only "decent" way is having a heavy zealot army which brings its own problem.
D3lta I completely agree. There is no evidence in this thread that EMP is imbalanced. It's just a bunch of anecdotal qqing based on non-relevant abstract ability comparisons in a vacuum that strongly suggest most of these players are new to Starcraft and RTS in general. The numerous non-analogous storm vs EMP or BW EMP vs SC2 EMP comparisons support this statement. Furthermore there is no broader MU analysis that would contextualize EMP usage to support potential claims on imbalance.
replays n statistic is irrelevant bc of the content in which it is used. ppl will only point out spots where it benefits their argument. this happens everywhere, if u dont understand that then u need to be around more things. u say all this emp stuff is "unsubstantiated" whining but ppl dont whine out of nothing. maybe 1-2 ppl do bc they r just bad but when a large amount of ppl argue over it, there is something wrong 1 way or another.
Of course! I realize now actual evidence is irrelevant to the discussion! The real evidence is the numerous posters like you . Clearly we should ignore the fairly balanced ladder/tournament results from the beta thus far and rely entirely on this thread to balance PvT.
Player A says "EMP" is overpowered. Player B says "show my a replay" Player A says "Brat vs toss in the zotac cup" Player B says "Brat won the first game I saw after 30 mins of out-econing the toss, and lost the second in 9 minutes to an immortal push" Player C say s"Replays don't mean anything guys, you'll just bring up what matches support your point" As for the ridiculous statements about storm being ineffective vs micro (and of course, also hard to land), and the same old broken "blizzard changed VR so they'll change ghosts"argument. there's plenty I've already stated on this thread.
Can we accept that EMP is NOT imbalanced/OP but needs reworking so Toss actually can do something about it?
And folks, citing pro replays as evidence is not the entire story of balance. Pros play at a level well beyond 99.9999% of all players, so their ability to micro/macro does not translate to everyone else. The game needs to be balanced for all levels of play. You shouldn't require pro level micro/macro to counter EMP (which is extremely easy to execute). It's exactly why the VR was nerfed (as stated by Blizzard). The same should apply to EMP.
On June 13 2010 15:07 whoopadeedoo wrote: Can we accept that EMP is NOT imbalanced/OP but needs reworking so Toss actually can do something about it?
And folks, citing pro replays as evidence is not the entire story of balance. Pros play at a level well beyond 99.9999% of all players, so their ability to micro/macro does not translate to everyone else. The game needs to be balanced for all levels of play. You shouldn't require pro level micro/macro to counter EMP (which is extremely easy to execute). It's exactly why the VR was nerfed (as stated by Blizzard). The same should apply to EMP.
Interesting argument, but it's one that shouldn't be relied on.
If Blizzard balances too heavily based on casual level play, then the game's future as an esport will be severely hindered. I already disagree with all the nerfs done purely to help noobs play the game because they're pointless, stupid, and have repercussions beyond what Blizzard intends.
EMP is crazy strong and in my opinion is much, much better than storm and is perhaps one of the best spells in the game. It's probably OP and imba, but I don't think it really needs to be changed, except maybe a cast range or radius nerf, but even in its current incarnation it's fine. Playing PvT has always required a lot of ability and effort in proper micro and positioning on both sides, especially for Protoss once the game gets into mid-late game ever since BW. I see no reason why that should be a problem.
On June 13 2010 15:07 whoopadeedoo wrote: Can we accept that EMP is NOT imbalanced/OP but needs reworking so Toss actually can do something about it?
And folks, citing pro replays as evidence is not the entire story of balance. Pros play at a level well beyond 99.9999% of all players, so their ability to micro/macro does not translate to everyone else. The game needs to be balanced for all levels of play. You shouldn't require pro level micro/macro to counter EMP (which is extremely easy to execute). It's exactly why the VR was nerfed (as stated by Blizzard). The same should apply to EMP.
Interesting argument, but it's one that shouldn't be relied on.
If Blizzard balances too heavily based on casual level play, then the game's future as an esport will be severely hindered. I already disagree with all the nerfs done purely to help noobs play the game because they're pointless, stupid, and have repercussions beyond what Blizzard intends.
EMP is crazy strong and in my opinion is much, much better than storm and is perhaps one of the best spells in the game. It's probably OP and imba, but I don't think it really needs to be changed, except maybe a cast range or radius nerf, but even in its current incarnation it's fine. Playing PvT has always required a lot of ability and effort in proper micro and positioning on both sides, especially Protoss once the game gets into mid-late game ever since BW. I see no reason why that should be a problem.
Yeah seriously don't balance the game based on casual play. If you keep reducing the skill ceiling then SC2 won't be the esport BW is.
Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
Where would you get the idea that the protoss has to macro at a higher level at the terran? Was that a typo? Micro is debatable but you think macro is harder for the toss? Seriously? I don't want to derail the thread on this point but I can't help but point it out b/c I think it undermines your credibility
The lack of a direct protoss EMP solution isn't evidence of imbalance. If T > P statistically on ladder and in most tournaments/pro-leagues b/c of substantiated EMP usage then that would be evidence of imbalance but we really haven't seen that (as a result of EMP). I think the whole point of EMP is to help the terran compensate for the general strength of the protoss army and other MU nuances. Blizzard wants the protoss to get EMP'd.
I can see why you would think making it dodgeable would add micro to the game (it would) but it would be at the cost of balance and strategic diversity. One of the tricky things about balance is how it affects different skill levels. For example, if EMP were hard to dodge, but dodgeable most gosu protoss would consistently dodge it and ghosts would disappear from high level play. Sure, this scenario is great for the casual gamer but bad for the high level terran. Without reliable EMP bio builds become much less viable and the general strategic diversity of high level play suffers. How much fun is Warcraft 3 to watch? Is this what we really want for PvT everyone doing the same build? This is what I was getting at with my comment about skill ceiling and balance adjustments. I want SC2 to succeed as an e-sport and things that further newbify an already too-easy game I'm strongly against.
I'm open to being convinced but I from all of the games I've played and the replays I've watched (most Zotac, ESL etc.) I just don't see any evidence that EMP is imbalanced in high level play so I don't understand why its need more nerfing (it was nerfed once if you recall). It kind of reminds me of irradiate from BW in TvZ. There was literally nothing the zerg could do about but try and snipe vessels (which can be very difficult). The reason late game TvZ wasn't completely imba was b/c other factors besides irradiate. Specifically dark swarm and ultralisks. If irradiate was directly counter-able (dodgeable, removable in some way) late game zerg would always overrun the terran. I can't help but feel EMP is vaguely analogous in some regards.
EDIT: I'll point out too that we're ignoring the economic costs of ghost play for terran. These are not insignificant and can't be debated by just adding up the gas cost and being like "oh wow it only costs X gas, that's really not very much." Gas costs are relative to build orders, production capabilities, and stage of the game. They can only be understood in the union these contexts. If it were demonstrated (it hasn't in this thread at least) EMP was imbalanced one potential nerf would be a cloak nerf or slight range nerf. That would make ghosts easier to snipe which would add a tactical element to game play. Other possible nerfs include decreasing the rate ghosts recharge energy. But again, I don't think Blizzard should mess with EMP without evidence of PvT imbalance as a result of EMP. Who knows, maybe their internal statistics prove me completely wrong. Idk.
As a separate point I want to add I have seen (and executed) plenty of fail EMPs that completely miss the protoss army. Part of this is that if the ghost isn't properly positioned to immediately EMP it has to walk within range (other units are often in the way) and by the time it takes to get positioned (often just 1-3 seconds) the protoss units it wants to EMP have already moved out of the target location. Most of the time the protoss isn't doing anything special to move the units, it is more of a function of two armies meeting imperfectly so the units don't all come to battle at the same time and the players are positioning their forces as the battle occurs to get better firing arcs/position. It's basically the same reason you see fail psi storms that miss. Sure you can move out of the storm (after it has hit you) but it still lands instantly even if ends up doing little damage b/c you move out of the way.
Additionally I think the long range is to make it possible to EMP deeper into the protoss army without making your ghost too easily snipable. If it were easy to snipe the ghost you'd see them disappear from high level play. This is why I think Blizzard has it as an instant cast with 10 range. Nerfing the range or making it dodgeable would would significantly hamper its utility which is why the last nerf was a radius nerf.
Theres is absolutely zero chance in a evenly matched game that terran will get less than 3 or 4 emps out in a late game battle. Its just how it is. You try to counter with colo or storm. Feedbacking the ghosts are a huge fail move, its just too micro intensive, you don't even know if that ghost already used their mana or not, and ghost and cloak to counter it, as well as bing tiny enough to be really hard to pick out of an army.
On June 13 2010 17:56 DragonDefonce wrote: Theres is absolutely zero chance in a evenly matched game that terran will get less than 3 or 4 emps out in a late game battle. Its just how it is. You try to counter with colo or storm. Feedbacking the ghosts are a huge fail move, its just too micro intensive, you don't even know if that ghost already used their mana or not, and ghost and cloak to counter it, as well as bing tiny enough to be really hard to pick out of an army.
Lol!! I'm quitting this thread. I'm not even sure why I wasted so much time posting. This post just reminded me why I hate the sc2 strategy forums. Thanks for rewinding 3-4 pages DragonDefonce just when what seemed to be an actual discussion started to occur. GG guys
EMP- Eliminates shields, the units just MELT away to splash damage, and just get decimated by high cyclic attacks. Removes Energy, so how's Protoss without force fields and guardian shields? And to micro, really? What kind of suggestion is that, unless you're a progamer, in SC2 you won't use that much APM to spread your army in a shape of a concave, and if you do the EMP will already strike. LoL at the guy that said raven ATs were as strong as Storm Drops.
On June 13 2010 17:50 space_yes wrote: As a separate point I want to add I have seen (and executed) plenty of fail EMPs that completely miss the protoss army. Part of this is that if the ghost isn't properly positioned to immediately EMP it has to walk within range (other units are often in the way) and by the time it takes to get positioned (often just 1-3 seconds) the protoss units it wants to EMP have already moved out of the target location. Most of the time the protoss isn't doing anything special to move the units, it is more of a function of two armies meeting imperfectly so the units don't all come to battle at the same time and the players are positioning their forces as the battle occurs to get better firing arcs/position. It's basically the same reason you see fail psi storms that miss. Sure you can move out of the storm (after it has hit you) but it still lands instantly even if ends up doing little damage b/c you move out of the way.
Additionally I think the long range is to make it possible to EMP deeper into the protoss army without making your ghost too easily snipable. If it were easy to snipe the ghost you'd see them disappear from high level play. This is why I think Blizzard has it as an instant cast with 10 range. Nerfing the range or making it dodgeable would would significantly hamper its utility which is why the last nerf was a radius nerf.
So basically you're defending a fool-proof way of making the protoss army always half of what it's supposed HP should be aggainst a terran that uses ghosts.. Also, HT have only 6 range on their storm and you don't see protoss complaining, because what you just said could be quoted word for word to describe HTs situation. Besides, if protoss could use their HT to feedback ghosts, unless they had 150 energy, they won't do much on the field anymore after the feedback. At least that way there was a reasonable counter to ghosts, and there would be something the protoss could do. It would just be a matter of who was quicker terran EMPing or protoss Feedbacking. Not only would that be better to watch but to play as well.
I had problems with EMP, until I stopped being lazy and actually took the time to use Observers, keep track of the Terran army, and spread myself whenever engagements were going to take place. This allows for minimal energy drain from my Sentries, and all of my units as a whole's shields. I keep my Templar spread further and behind/to the sides of my army even, and when the engagement begins I reveal them and begin Storming as usual, they just come in from all different which ways and are harder to EMP.
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
Void Rays are being used aggressively against terrans now, using their range and speed to trap a terran player in their base. This is pretty fun for the protoss player but at a variety of skill levels it is too difficult for the terran player to stop, even if the player sees it coming with good scouting. We think a slight range reduction will help with this match-up without doing too much damage to other matchups.
This is the reasoning behind the VR nerf Blizzard gave. Notice it says "trap the player in the base" and "too difficult to stop even if the player sees it coming" - NOTHING about ending the match in <7 minuts. Stop making up stuff.
Regarding your quotes: 1) They are old (1 from this month, the rest are 2 - TWO months old) 2) They don't say what you want them to say; i.e. chill is more about how we should approach the game as being fixed and the flaw is more realisticly due to the players. But the difference between what the attention required to use a ghost to its optimum and what it requires to work around it is without question VERY big.
I don't think I have said ANYWHERE that I wanted it to be hard-counterable. I want it to require the same attention as working around it does - which is why I advocate letting it stay as is, except giving it a projectile so it is dodgeable. One could argue that it would be too much of a hit or miss which I will partly agree with - thus the solution by making it "tick" sorta like storm is imho decent. Again, the reason WHY everyone in favor of a change is drilling on the "equal payout for equal work" is because that is one of the standards blizzard themselves uses.
Have you played PvT from the Protoss perspective? It feels the exact same way. IF the Terran plays aggressively, AND makes Ghosts, they're almost unstoppable, even if you see it coming.
Fortunately most Terrans are stupid, sit on their ass with a 1/1/1 build for 10 minutes and try to outmacro us, but every now and then you bump into a Terran that just immensely kicks your ass because there was no unit counter, resource advantage, micromanagement, or outmaneuvering you could have gained at that point in the game to swing it in your favour.
And when you've got two massive armies colliding in a 'fair fight' Ghosts can EMP all of our shit (including casters), Siege Tanks get two full volleys of shots off, Vikings start battering our Collossi and the bio ball is Stimmed, all before we can get in range and fight back or Feedback those Ghosts to at least stop the EMP. The upfront burst of all of that is utterly retarded. You need to have an immense economic, terrain or unit-count advantage to take on a ball of Terran units in a fair fight. Intended or not the difference in skill required to beat it is mind-blowing. Something in that huge list of unstoppable upfront burst needs to get toned down, and the obvious culprit is EMP, since it only affects the PvT matchup.
On June 14 2010 01:00 MythicalMage wrote: EMP has an animation, so I believe you can time it so you can feedback before the EMP hits.
What good does that do? You Feedback a Ghost who's already fired the EMP, so that he doesn't fire a second? Either way you just lost a buttload of energy and/or shield for a bunch of units and maybe killed (most likely just wounded) a Ghost.
All you can do is send HTs to Feedback Ghosts and hope he doesn't fire them at their range 10, before your slow-ass HTs close the distance to a range of 9 with the Ghost. There's no awesome, tactical micromanagement you can do.
On June 14 2010 01:00 MythicalMage wrote: EMP has an animation, so I believe you can time it so you can feedback before the EMP hits.
What good does that do? You Feedback a Ghost who's already fired the EMP, so that he doesn't fire a second? Either way you just lost a buttload of energy and/or shield for a bunch of units and maybe killed (most likely just wounded) a Ghost.
All you can do is send HTs to Feedback Ghosts and hope he doesn't fire them at their range 10, before your slow-ass HTs close the distance to a range of 9 with the Ghost. There's no awesome, tactical micromanagement you can do.
That is if you even manage to find the ghost in the middle of the bioblob... Perhaps if you were master of finding needles in a haystack you would stand a chance of finding them...
I don't have much trouble finding them, since I play with health bars on all the time (I played a lot of WoW PvP, so I'm used to UI spam). Finding the purple bars isn't too difficult, and fortunately HTs don't go running off when you tell them to Feedback something without energy, so you just spam F and click in the general area until you nailed it, then go find the next one.
But, you have to worry about putting your HTs at the front before you do this, which puts them at risk of getting squished by Siege Tank fire when they start pondering forward, AND there's always a chance you get the instant-cast range 9 Feedback off, moments after the instant-cast range 10 EMP was launched, netting you a dead HT and you've still lost a bunch of energy and shield.
This is all assuming your armies are dancing in front of one another, with him scanning your side to watch your movements, and your observer near his army to watch his.
If he's just rampaging forward towards your army, good luck!
For starters, we are whining about T bioballs now? I thought whining about Terran mech was the whine de jour.
And second we are whining about T bioballs NOW? I coulda sworn that was already countered easily halfway into beta with any P who has a sufficient amount of colossi and sentries/meatshields?
Ghosts don't stop 2-3 colossi from turning your MM ball into a pile of burning organic matter.
And when you've got two massive armies colliding in a 'fair fight' Ghosts can EMP all of our shit (including casters), Siege Tanks get two full volleys of shots off, Vikings start battering our Collossi and the bio ball is Stimmed, all before we can get in range and fight back or Feedback those Ghosts to at least stop the EMP. The upfront burst of all of that is utterly retarded. You need to have an immense economic, terrain or unit-count advantage to take on a ball of Terran units in a fair fight. Intended or not the difference in skill required to beat it is mind-blowing. Something in that huge list of unstoppable upfront burst needs to get toned down, and the obvious culprit is EMP, since it only affects the PvT matchup.
All this tells me is that you believe T players can somehow conjure up the a few thousand gas (and minerals) out of no where while compelling P to sit there and do absolutely nothing. You also display a hilarious scenario where P does absolutely nothing while T gets everything into play. You say that there is no way to beat T unless you get a economic, terrain or unit count advantage. Which hilariously enough is something Toss can do courtesy of chronoboost, warp gates and proxy pylons (w/ warpgates) respectively.
It also tells me that you believe in throwing your units at fortified position. In which case good for you. I hope blizzard never listens to people like you (unfortunately they probably will considering the number of OMG HOW2BEET NURF players there are).
Fuck it.
I hope blizzard moves EMP to ravens and makes it the "crappier" BW version that some people insist it is. Then we can have the old sci vessel.
Then you can whine when 3/3 Terran Mech destroys the toss army you and others so gleefully suicide into. It happened in BW and having porting this over to SC2 won't be a bad thing.
On June 14 2010 01:31 Mensab wrote: For starters, we are whining about T bioballs now? I thought whining about Terran mech was the whine de jour.
And second we are whining about T bioballs NOW? I coulda sworn that was already countered easily halfway into beta with any P who has a sufficient amount of colossi and sentries/meatshields?
Ghosts don't stop 2-3 colossi from turning your MM ball into a pile of burning organic matter.
And when you've got two massive armies colliding in a 'fair fight' Ghosts can EMP all of our shit (including casters), Siege Tanks get two full volleys of shots off, Vikings start battering our Collossi and the bio ball is Stimmed, all before we can get in range and fight back or Feedback those Ghosts to at least stop the EMP. The upfront burst of all of that is utterly retarded. You need to have an immense economic, terrain or unit-count advantage to take on a ball of Terran units in a fair fight. Intended or not the difference in skill required to beat it is mind-blowing. Something in that huge list of unstoppable upfront burst needs to get toned down, and the obvious culprit is EMP, since it only affects the PvT matchup.
All this tells me is that you believe T players can somehow conjure up the a few thousand gas (and minerals) out of no where while compelling P to sit there and do absolutely nothing. You also display a hilarious scenario where P does absolutely nothing while T gets everything into play. You say that there is no way to beat T unless you get a economic, terrain or unit count advantage. Which hilariously enough is something Toss can do courtesy of chronoboost, warp gates and proxy pylons.
It also tells me that you believe in throwing your units at fortified position. In which case good for you. I hope blizzard never listens to people like you (unfortunately they probably will considering the number of OMG HOW2BEET NURF players there are).
Fuck it.
I hope blizzard moves EMP to ravens and makes it the "crappier" BW version that some people insist it is. Then we can have the old sci vessel.
Then you can whine when 3/3 Terran Mech destroys the toss army you and others so gleefully suicide into. It happened in BW and having porting this over to SC2 won't be a bad thing.
At what point did I say the Protoss is doing nothing, and doesn't have everything in play, too? At what point did I say the Protoss isn't trying to bust in? At what point do you actually consider Chrono Boost a massive advantage over say, Reactors and the MULE? Hi, two different production abilities for two different races. At what point does a Protoss player have to say "fuck it" to a massive blob of Siege Tanks and Vikings sitting outside his expansion?
Get some basic comprehension before you try and complain.
I'm glad when Terrans go mech. Makes Void Rays that much stronger. Too few Terrans haven't got a clue how badly their beloved Vikins get raped by Flux-Veined Void Rays that snuck into their base and charged to full off a building.
Ughh... starcraft 2 strategy forums. I find that people don't ever read what you write, or if they do, they don't bother understanding it. The quality of people's arguments is also rather lacking of objective evidence.
On June 12 2010 23:51 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: What if feedback were made smarter? So that you could cast it on an area, or a noncaster, and you'd automatically feedback a caster close to that area. It would've made lockdown more useful in sc1. Just a thought to deal with issue #2.
Blizzard probably won't change anythiing right now though. edit: I'm not sure emp should be nerfed.
What if FF was automatic? What if 250mm was automatic to massive stuff? What if storm was auto-matic? what if any energy ability was autonmatic? I sense overpoweredness in automaticness.
Just one example, not enough to prove anything: notice how I say that feedback will only work on a unit in the area that you cast. It's not autocast. You still have to choose to use the ability, it's just easier to aim at a specific unit.
Not to be a grammar police either, but your argument would be more convincing if you checked for spelling... "autonmatic". Another common theme in starcraft 2 forums is the lack of spell-check.
Finally, you're all just theorycrafting. These kinds of discussions get nowhere unless people put in concrete evidence such as videos of tests. Imagine if scientists tried to prove things like this. If you like these kinds of discussions that go on for twenty pages, don't prove anything, and then are forgotten, then go to the bnet forums.
On June 14 2010 01:37 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: Ughh... starcraft 2 strategy forums. I find that people don't ever read what you write, or if they do, they don't bother understanding it. The quality of people's arguments is also rather lacking of objective evidence.
On June 12 2010 23:51 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: What if feedback were made smarter? So that you could cast it on an area, or a noncaster, and you'd automatically feedback a caster close to that area. It would've made lockdown more useful in sc1. Just a thought to deal with issue #2.
Blizzard probably won't change anythiing right now though. edit: I'm not sure emp should be nerfed.
What if FF was automatic? What if 250mm was automatic to massive stuff? What if storm was auto-matic? what if any energy ability was autonmatic? I sense overpoweredness in automaticness.
Just one example, not enough to prove anything: notice how I say that feedback will only work on a unit in the area that you cast. It's not autocast. You still have to choose to use the ability, it's just easier to aim at a specific unit.
Not to be a grammar police either, but your argument would be more convincing if you checked for spelling... "autonmatic". Another common theme in starcraft 2 forums is the lack of spell-check.
Finally, you're all just theorycrafting. These kinds of discussions get nowhere unless people put in concrete evidence such as videos of tests. Imagine if scientists tried to prove things like this. If you like these kinds of discussions that go on for twenty pages, don't prove anything, and then are forgotten, then go to the bnet forums.
That'd be great if Beta weren't down and replays didn't crash
All we can do is argue our perspective, and any kind of feedback is pretty important to a balance designer, anyway.
At what point did I say the Protoss is doing nothing, and doesn't have everything in play, too? At what point did I say the Protoss isn't trying to bust in?
And when you've got two massive armies colliding in a 'fair fight' Ghosts can EMP all of our shit (including casters), Siege Tanks get two full volleys of shots off, Vikings start battering our Collossi and the bio ball is Stimmed, all before we can get in range and fight back
all before we can get in range and fight back
Blink stalkers? Phoenixes? Both? Or anything in general? Or how about not running headlong into his army? I mean I heard (and just heard you know) that any T with a big tank line is pretty vulnerable when a number of them have to unsiege to leapfrog. And if he doesnt have a strong tank line then the bulk of his DPS is with his range 5 and range 6 units?
Nevermind that there is a big assumption that the T player has to somehow amass all this heavily expensive mineral AND gas heavy army. I mean fuck you have the T have a large bioball (presumably with a heavy marauder count to boot) along with a tank line that actually means something and sufficient vikings to threaten colossi?
Whine about 24 3/3 battlecruisers next? Oooh how about throw in some thors into that mix you described earlier too, I mean why not throw a couple of 300/200 units into the already massively expensive army.
At what point do you actually consider Chrono Boost a massive advantage over say, Reactors and the MULE? Hi, two different production abilities for two different races.
Gee I don't know being able to nearly double the worker count that T has and being able to cover 3/4 of the map by minute 10 would count as an advantage, I dunno.
And if you want to argue that you are going to be saving to chronoboost something other than probes the vast majority of the time, then I say "scan".
At what point does a Protoss player have to say "fuck it" to a massive blob of Siege Tanks and Vikings sitting outside his expansion?
Get some basic comprehension before you try and complain.
I'm glad when Terrans go mech. Makes Void Rays that much stronger. Too few Terrans haven't got a clue how badly their beloved Vikins get raped by Flux-Veined Void Rays that snuck into their base and charged to full off a building.
I dunno you kinda answered your own question right there buddy. Unless vikings and tanks somehow aren't mech.
At what point did I say the Protoss is doing nothing, and doesn't have everything in play, too? At what point did I say the Protoss isn't trying to bust in?
And when you've got two massive armies colliding in a 'fair fight' Ghosts can EMP all of our shit (including casters), Siege Tanks get two full volleys of shots off, Vikings start battering our Collossi and the bio ball is Stimmed, all before we can get in range and fight back
Blink stalkers? Phoenixes? Both? Or anything in general? Or how about not running headlong into his army? I mean I heard (and just heard you know) that any T with a big tank line is pretty vulnerable when a number of them have to unsiege to leapfrog. And if he doesnt have a strong tank line then the bulk of his DPS is with his range 5 and range 6 units?
Nevermind that there is a big assumption that the T player has to somehow amass all this heavily expensive mineral AND gas heavy army. I mean fuck you have the T have a large bioball (presumably with a heavy marauder count to boot) along with a tank line that actually means something and sufficient vikings to threaten colossi?
Whine about 24 3/3 battlecruisers next? Oooh how about throw in some thors into that mix you described earlier too, I mean why not throw a couple of 300/200 units into the already massively expensive army.
At what point do you actually consider Chrono Boost a massive advantage over say, Reactors and the MULE? Hi, two different production abilities for two different races.
Gee I don't know being able to nearly double the worker count that T has and being able to cover 3/4 of the map by minute 10 would count as an advantage, I dunno.
And if you want to argue that you are going to be saving to chronoboost something other than probes the vast majority of the time, then I say "scan".
At what point does a Protoss player have to say "fuck it" to a massive blob of Siege Tanks and Vikings sitting outside his expansion?
Get some basic comprehension before you try and complain.
I'm glad when Terrans go mech. Makes Void Rays that much stronger. Too few Terrans haven't got a clue how badly their beloved Vikins get raped by Flux-Veined Void Rays that snuck into their base and charged to full off a building.
I dunno you kinda answered your own question right there buddy. Unless vikings and tanks somehow aren't mech.
Yeah, you seem to have Mech complaints confused as if Protoss are complaining about them. Its actually Zerg having trouble with mech.
What does ANY of that have to do with the Feedback-EMP dynamic?
You know, the thing we're actually talking about here? You're just exploding it out of proportion. "OMG you complain about EMP, YOU MUST BE COMPLAINING ABOUT A BAZILLION BCS, TOO!". No. I'm complaining about EMP, because the amount of upfront burst damage it does to my army, with a simple E-click is mind-blowingly retarded, compared to the amount of effort I have to put in to just mitigate, let alone stop it.
And the only 'counter' I do have, has a shorter range. So its just a great big coin toss depending on whether my HTs reach your Ghosts, before you EMP my army. In most cases, no.
On June 13 2010 14:51 D3lta wrote: Player A says "EMP" is overpowered. Player B says "show my a replay" Player A says "Brat vs toss in the zotac cup" Player B says "Brat won the first game I saw after 30 mins of out-econing the toss, and lost the second in 9 minutes to an immortal push" Player C say s"Replays don't mean anything guys, you'll just bring up what matches support your point" As for the ridiculous statements about storm being ineffective vs micro (and of course, also hard to land), and the same old broken "blizzard changed VR so they'll change ghosts"argument. there's plenty I've already stated on this thread.
player A point out a replay to support his pt player B point out another replay to support his pt both ignores certain mistakes that affect the game altogether hence proving player C pt
i havent watch the replay but in every replay both player will make mistakes that ppl can say affected the game more than something else. unless both player play perfectly which is impossible, replays r useless.
storm is MUCH MUCH LESS effective against micro than emp is against micro.
blizz is eventually gunna do something to emp when ppl polish their build more. only reason its not being looked into much right now bc most terran is going mech. also correct me if im wrong but blizz hasnt release the tvp percentage for those ppl that love statistics so much
EMP is and will be staying, even if its OP or not, doesnt matter. i agree with one of the above posters, Terran has easy to get counters to high tier units at their tier 1. wel just have to play around it. imo Terran is MUCH like Protoss in Sc1, Easy to play. easy to win, to a Certain level of play. this includes Diamond seeing as 90% of the ppl there are Terrible. now for the ppl that brings up tour's and stats on high end tours and so on, the game levels out at some point, once pepole get the "FEELING" for the game, its the same as playing PVZ/PVP or whatever matchup u feel is balanced. THIS is why u dont see Terrans winning evrything. give the game sometime, some nerd will 99.99% surely find some way to crack Terran's for Midd/low players if not, blizzard HAS to tweak terran in some way. no point in crying about it until the release is out becouse ALOT can change, and prob will in release aswell.
On June 13 2010 17:25 space_yes wrote: Where would you get the idea that the protoss has to macro at a higher level at the terran? Was that a typo? Micro is debatable but you think macro is harder for the toss? Seriously? I don't want to derail the thread on this point but I can't help but point it out b/c I think it undermines your credibility
In SC2 thus far, this is true. Watch pro replays ... Protoss exploits macro to gain an advantage against T. Macro isn't just about who builds the most units.
The lack of a direct protoss EMP solution isn't evidence of imbalance. If T > P statistically on ladder and in most tournaments/pro-leagues b/c of substantiated EMP usage then that would be evidence of imbalance but we really haven't seen that (as a result of EMP). I think the whole point of EMP is to help the terran compensate for the general strength of the protoss army and other MU nuances. Blizzard wants the protoss to get EMP'd.
I don't know how many times I need to repeat this, but it is not about outcome imbalance. I have never stated Terran is imbalanced or OP (this is for another debate). My argument is there is no solution, and no other unit or spell in BW or SC2 works like this in any matchup. I also think Terran has a lot easier time executing EMP then Toss has dealing with it. Those are my two arguments; it has NOTHING to do with T being OP.
And again, IMO citing pro stats does not work for reasons I've already stated in a previous post. There was no pro stats that demonstrated the VR was OP, but it got nerfed nonetheless because it was way easier to execute than counter, affecting all levels of non-pro play. How does this not apply to EMP?
I can see why you would think making it dodgeable would add micro to the game (it would) but it would be at the cost of balance and strategic diversity. One of the tricky things about balance is how it affects different skill levels. For example, if EMP were hard to dodge, but dodgeable most gosu protoss would consistently dodge it and ghosts would disappear from high level play. Sure, this scenario is great for the casual gamer but bad for the high level terran. Without reliable EMP bio builds become much less viable and the general strategic diversity of high level play suffers. How much fun is Warcraft 3 to watch? Is this what we really want for PvT everyone doing the same build? This is what I was getting at with my comment about skill ceiling and balance adjustments. I want SC2 to succeed as an e-sport and things that further newbify an already too-easy game I'm strongly against.
Your argument about dodging EMP is invalid. Terran has many solutions to psi storm, and yet psi storms consistently go off in pro play. Toss has no solutions to EMP. This makes no sense.
I'm open to being convinced but I from all of the games I've played and the replays I've watched (most Zotac, ESL etc.) I just don't see any evidence that EMP is imbalanced in high level play so I don't understand why its need more nerfing (it was nerfed once if you recall). It kind of reminds me of irradiate from BW in TvZ. There was literally nothing the zerg could do about but try and snipe vessels (which can be very difficult). The reason late game TvZ wasn't completely imba was b/c other factors besides irradiate. Specifically dark swarm and ultralisks. If irradiate was directly counter-able (dodgeable, removable in some way) late game zerg would always overrun the terran. I can't help but feel EMP is vaguely analogous in some regards.
Again, it doesn't have to do with imbalance. It has to do with Toss having no solutions to EMP. Irradiation isn't even a close comparison. It has a shorter range, sci vessels are much easier to shoot down (scourges), it was a much smaller AoE, and you can easily move away irridiated units so damage is isolated to a single unit. There are tons of Z solutions to irradiate. There is no solution for P against EMP.
I'm not asking for a nerf. I'm asking for a workable Toss solution. If this requires a nerf, then so be it.
EDIT: I'll point out too that we're ignoring the economic costs of ghost play for terran. These are not insignificant and can't be debated by just adding up the gas cost and being like "oh wow it only costs X gas, that's really not very much." Gas costs are relative to build orders, production capabilities, and stage of the game. They can only be understood in the union these contexts. If it were demonstrated (it hasn't in this thread at least) EMP was imbalanced one potential nerf would be a cloak nerf or slight range nerf. That would make ghosts easier to snipe which would add a tactical element to game play. Other possible nerfs include decreasing the rate ghosts recharge energy. But again, I don't think Blizzard should mess with EMP without evidence of PvT imbalance as a result of EMP. Who knows, maybe their internal statistics prove me completely wrong. Idk.
Immaterial to the two arguments I'm making (which I refuse to repeat again ). I will bet good money EMP is addressed in a future patch in one way or another (added toss ability or change in EMP range/research)
On June 13 2010 21:29 Tump wrote: I had problems with EMP, until I stopped being lazy and actually took the time to use Observers, keep track of the Terran army, and spread myself whenever engagements were going to take place. This allows for minimal energy drain from my Sentries, and all of my units as a whole's shields. I keep my Templar spread further and behind/to the sides of my army even, and when the engagement begins I reveal them and begin Storming as usual, they just come in from all different which ways and are harder to EMP.
This is exactly why EMP is not over powered in my opinion. If both players have a similar army and the protoss spreads out with a heavy zelot/high templar composition, then the protoss army in my experience destroys a Terran bio army.
I also think it is weird that there is a topic on TL about just about every Terran unit being OP. From my experience most of my opponents that complain about something being OP lost the game because I expanded several minutes before they did, or I killed a bunch of their workers early game.
On June 13 2010 21:29 Tump wrote: I had problems with EMP, until I stopped being lazy and actually took the time to use Observers, keep track of the Terran army, and spread myself whenever engagements were going to take place. This allows for minimal energy drain from my Sentries, and all of my units as a whole's shields. I keep my Templar spread further and behind/to the sides of my army even, and when the engagement begins I reveal them and begin Storming as usual, they just come in from all different which ways and are harder to EMP.
This is exactly why EMP is not over powered in my opinion. If both players have a similar army and the protoss spreads out with a heavy zelot/high templar composition, then the protoss army in my experience destroys a Terran bio army.
I also think it is weird that there is a topic on TL about just about every Terran unit being OP. From my experience most of my opponents that complain about something being OP lost the game because I expanded several minutes before they did, or I killed a bunch of their workers early game.
So the ability isn't overpowered because if the protoss player is mechanically much better than the terran it is fair? - riiiiight.
complaints in-game =/= complaints written on a forum.
So the ability isn't overpowered because if the protoss player is mechanically much better than the terran it is fair? - riiiiight.
complaints in-game =/= complaints written on a forum.
The ability isn't overpowered because Toss has observers and phoenixes. Being able to monitor the terran army, tech, composition is just a HUGE advantage. You should always have plenty of time to set up your positioning before a battle starts, unless you are a complete and utter idiot.
Toss keeps complaining about EMP, yet they don't acknowledge the HUGE scouting advantage that they have that Terran can do nothing about. This game is 50% scouting, 20% micro, 30% macro. If EMP is raping you, you are just doing it wrong.
So the ability isn't overpowered because if the protoss player is mechanically much better than the terran it is fair? - riiiiight.
complaints in-game =/= complaints written on a forum.
The ability isn't overpowered because Toss has observers and phoenixes. Being able to monitor the terran army, tech, composition is just a HUGE advantage. You should always have plenty of time to set up your positioning before a battle starts, unless you are a complete and utter idiot.
Toss keeps complaining about EMP, yet they don't acknowledge the HUGE scouting advantage that they have that Terran can do nothing about. This game is 50% scouting, 20% micro, 30% macro. If EMP is raping you, you are just doing it wrong.
terran spot the observer around its army n scans using energy, toss build obs for 100g. how is that a huge scouting advantage? every race has its own advantages in scouting. terran can instantly find out wats happening in any part of the map anytime pass the early game. a good terran player that is active with his scans will rarely be surprised by anything. n terran can do nothing about toss scout? r u serious? 1 raven = no more obs n phoenix arent cheap to just have it fly over groups of marine n get shot at
something a lot of u r missing is that u make it sound like terran has ghost n thats all. u bring out all these toss units that can compliment to fight against ghost, dont u think terran can also compliment the ghost?
Every scan to kill an obs will cost you 270mins (or 3 less minerals per second). Even if you kill his 50/100 unit, he's already seen your tech and your unit composition on top of the 270minerals you lose. Not to mention that most of the time, obs run completely undetected even at the highest levels. People don't have extremely sharp eyes that notice little translucent waves while they are macroing.
Obs >>>>>>>>>>>> Scans. Period. There is no contest. It's not even debatable.
On June 14 2010 05:43 link0 wrote: Every scan to kill an obs will cost you 270mins (or 3 less minerals per second). Even if you kill his 50/100 unit, he's already seen your tech and your unit composition on top of the 270minerals you lose. Not to mention that most of the time, obs run completely undetected even at the highest levels. People don't have extremely sharp eyes that notice little translucent waves while they are macroing.
Obs >>>>>>>>>>>> Scans. Period. There is no contest. It's not even debatable.
youre not losing any minerals holy shit, you dont mine as fast, chances are you are already ina huge mineral sink from 2 OC using mules anyway(hard to spend that much money just massing mules) and not scanning is stupid in general and you'll lose doing it.
And sure you can say with protoss' obs they can see the ghosts, but can you do a god damn thing about it? no. Ive had obs over the terran army and saw the ghosts and though "cool ill be able to win this with a good spread" only to get shit on by emp, did i mention its unavoidable? you cant FF half the time because your sentries run out of energy and even getting half of your army makes it pretty much useless.
The spell instant hits, drains all energy and mana, and is undodgable? This is balanced how?
1. You ARE losing minerals. The lack of gain = lose. You lose 3minerals per second of income. Is that too complicated to understand?
2. Too much minerals? Mineral sink? LOL, just because you can't macro to spend all your minerals doesn't mean good terran players can't. Every scan to kill an obs costs me more than 5 marines and the obs already saw everything it needed to see and another one is on the way.
3. I never claimed that you shouldn't scan. Scanning is obviously useful at certain times.
So the ability isn't overpowered because if the protoss player is mechanically much better than the terran it is fair? - riiiiight.
complaints in-game =/= complaints written on a forum.
The ability isn't overpowered because Toss has observers and phoenixes. Being able to monitor the terran army, tech, composition is just a HUGE advantage. You should always have plenty of time to set up your positioning before a battle starts, unless you are a complete and utter idiot.
Toss keeps complaining about EMP, yet they don't acknowledge the HUGE scouting advantage that they have that Terran can do nothing about. This game is 50% scouting, 20% micro, 30% macro. If EMP is raping you, you are just doing it wrong.
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant.
On June 14 2010 05:54 link0 wrote: 1. You ARE losing minerals. The lack of gain = lose. You lose 3minerals per second of income. Is that too complicated to understand?
2. Too much minerals? Mineral sink? LOL, just because you can't macro to spend all your minerals doesn't mean good terran players can't.
3. I never claimed that you shouldn't scan. Scanning is obviously useful at certain times.
1. When you already have 2 OC sending mules im really not convinced you need that much extra income so im going to disagree, its not like youre pumping thors out of 10 factories and need a shitload of minerals for cheapass marines and marauders?
2.I was almost 2k plat so im doubting i had any problems spending money, getting C on SC1 with terran also probably could support this.(fixed for clarity)
3. you said in your post above that Mule > scan always, and theres no point in using it because you'll lose minerals, grats.
On June 14 2010 05:54 link0 wrote: 1. You ARE losing minerals. The lack of gain = lose. You lose 3minerals per second of income. Is that too complicated to understand?
You are DELAYING the income - you don't lose it, the difference is pretty big, but that is another discussion.
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant.
Thank you for a proper reply. Well, here is my answer.
There is no perfect UNIT counter to ghost EMP. Just like there is no perfect UNIT counter high templar feedback and storm. Everything is based off of positioning and micro.
This is where the Toss scouting advantage equalizes the Terran EMP advantage. Toss's mobility advantage equalizes the Terran seige tank advantage. Usually, you can expect that a Toss player will be more ready and be in a better position than a Terran player and exploit the Terran's lack of scouting and lack of mobility.
On June 14 2010 05:56 arb wrote: 3. you said in your post above that Mule > scan always, and theres no point in using it because you'll lose minerals, grats.
Huh? I said Obs >>>>> Scan. "Obs" is my abbreviation for observer, not Mule.
Ghostcom, 270 minerals less over the next 90 seconds (more or less) means I'll have 5 less marines in 90 seconds from now. The differences between "now" and 90 seconds from now isn't that significant.
On June 14 2010 05:56 arb wrote: 3. you said in your post above that Mule > scan always, and theres no point in using it because you'll lose minerals, grats.
Huh? I said Obs >>>>> Scan. "Obs" is my abbreviation for observer, not Mule.
Rofl i read that as OC so i assumed mule, sooooo fail
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant.
Thank you for a proper reply. Well, here is my answer.
There is no perfect UNIT counter to ghost EMP. Just like there is no perfect UNIT counter high templar feedback and storm. Everything is based off of positioning and micro.
This is where the Toss scouting advantage equalizes the Terran EMP advantage. Toss's mobility advantage equalizes the Terran seige tank advantage. Usually, you can expect that a Toss player will be more ready and be in a better position than a Terran player and exploit the Terran's lack of scouting and lack of mobility.
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
On June 14 2010 06:43 Ghostcom wrote: I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant.
Thank you for a proper reply. Well, here is my answer.
There is no perfect UNIT counter to ghost EMP. Just like there is no perfect UNIT counter high templar feedback and storm. Everything is based off of positioning and micro.
This is where the Toss scouting advantage equalizes the Terran EMP advantage. Toss's mobility advantage equalizes the Terran seige tank advantage. Usually, you can expect that a Toss player will be more ready and be in a better position than a Terran player and exploit the Terran's lack of scouting and lack of mobility.
You can't micro out of an EMP the same way you can micro out of a storm, and because EMP has a really long range, sniping ghosts with something like Blink Stalkers isn't a realistic option, since the ghosts will be behind the main Terran army, and as has already been mentioned, EMP outranges Feedback and is easier to cast effectively. Worse yet, EMP covers a really large area, and each Ghost in the Terran army can cast two EMP's without delay. That means that two Ghosts with enough energy could realistically hit a 200/200 Protoss army, even if that army is spread out (Think about any Protoss army you've faced: Can you think of any that couldn't be covered by four Command Centers?)
The question isn't whether Protoss has a counter to EMP. The answer is no. The question is whether, with sufficient scouting (Hallucinated Phoenixes, Obs, air unit fly-bys), a Protoss player can spot the Ghost Academy and build an army capable of withstanding the damage done by EMP, then winning. Without tons of replays or being able to play the game, I don't think anyone can answer that question: There are too many factors, like whether a Chargelot army can overcome a stimmed bioball with one third of their health missing and no caster support.
On June 14 2010 07:56 Kratisto wrote: That means that two Ghosts with enough energy could realistically hit a 200/200 Protoss army, even if that army is spread out (Think about any Protoss army you've faced: Can you think of any that couldn't be covered by four Command Centers?)
A big point as well is that they don't necessarily have to hit everything. If you can hit clumps of Sentries, Immortals, High Templar or Stalkers you get most of the benefit.
linko there is a diff in scouting n monitoring. monitoring means u constantly know wat is happening n clearly 1 scan = teh end of that. with scouting, scan takes better game sense but can be just as effective. terran can scout tech/composition as well as toss depending on the game. not to mention 1 raven = no more "monitoring" of terran army
while most ppl cannot find every obs on the field, most players are able to c teh blur around their army which is wat ur monitoring is about
also 270min over time from mule n 50min+100gas+build time is not that far apart. i dont think anyone will disagree that gas is much more important than mineral as the game goes on
not to mention some toss builds dont even build robo fac till later into the game
On June 14 2010 07:56 Kratisto wrote: The question isn't whether Protoss has a counter to EMP. The answer is no. The question is whether, with sufficient scouting (Hallucinated Phoenixes, Obs, air unit fly-bys), a Protoss player can spot the Ghost Academy and build an army capable of withstanding the damage done by EMP, then winning. Without tons of replays or being able to play the game, I don't think anyone can answer that question: There are too many factors, like whether a Chargelot army can overcome a stimmed bioball with one third of their health missing and no caster support.
There's been substantial evidence that the question is answered: YES, toss player can EASILY win a ground a fight when EMPed. There has been no evidence provided that Terran players using ghosts have any kind of substantial edge over Protoss. Just a lot of complaining with no real basis provided. At least in the T mech vs Zerg arguments, you have top players of BOTH races attesting that it was imbalanced, with replays and stats provided. Even in this case, it turns out that time seems to providing zerg with other answers than "nerf mech." There has been nothing like that provided here, and furthermore, there is no evidence that this opinion on OP ghosts is extremely wide spread. Marauders probably get way more complaints, which is a testament to the average level of play a complaining player is at. Even when you get the players on this thread to admit this, its only under the veil of "yea but the toss player has to play WAAY better." Again why has toss historically had the higher win % over Terran in all levels of platinum (later diamond) play? Not radically higher, but a good 54-52%. Sounds kind of balanced to me...
i think the thing is, emp has no projectile?? the area is huge meaning even if u shoot the front of the army it will hit a huge area and that its so FUKN hard to see a ghost in a bioball.. seriosuly its crazy.. feedback is too ahrd to click on a single ghost also ghost with emp withotu an upgrade is insane if any decent player has made 1-2 ghosts early game and going for a push it will destory any toss army.. there is no way for toss to deal with EMP which pretty much kills off 50% of the toss army hp.. the only reason ppl dont see ghosts as OP atm is becaues most players are too dumb to get ghosts and then complain that toss is imba.. seriously why would u not get 1 unit, the ghost, that coutners everything toss has - and call toss imba? n to anyone who says to me that well why doesnt toss get ht and feedback ghosts, ghosts are faster to get than HTs, EMP is aoe, you dont even have to click righ tin the center of the army ghosts are hard to feedback (single click a unit in a bioball) while ghosts can just emp the ground
seriously try playing P against decent terans and id liek to see them try and feedback the ghosts
Hmm...would adding a game-wide shout out saying "Warning: Nuclear Launch EMP Detected" and then a 20 second delay before the Nuke EMP goes off satisfy anyone?
Personally, I think people need to reword this whole "Protoss have no answer to EMP" argument. Maybe I'm the only one but to me that says that as soon as EMP hits the field it becomes impossible for the Protoss player to win because no matter what they do they can't overcome the Terran army. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe there are many games where the Terran player still gets EMP and loses right? It would seem those victorious Protoss players have found an answer to it since they did win after all.
On June 14 2010 07:56 Kratisto wrote: The question isn't whether Protoss has a counter to EMP. The answer is no. The question is whether, with sufficient scouting (Hallucinated Phoenixes, Obs, air unit fly-bys), a Protoss player can spot the Ghost Academy and build an army capable of withstanding the damage done by EMP, then winning. Without tons of replays or being able to play the game, I don't think anyone can answer that question: There are too many factors, like whether a Chargelot army can overcome a stimmed bioball with one third of their health missing and no caster support.
There's been substantial evidence that the question is answered: YES, toss player can EASILY win a ground a fight when EMPed. There has been no evidence provided that Terran players using ghosts have any kind of substantial edge over Protoss. Just a lot of complaining with no real basis provided. At least in the T mech vs Zerg arguments, you have top players of BOTH races attesting that it was imbalanced, with replays and stats provided. Even in this case, it turns out that time seems to providing zerg with other answers than "nerf mech." There has been nothing like that provided here, and furthermore, there is no evidence that this opinion on OP ghosts is extremely wide spread. Marauders probably get way more complaints, which is a testament to the average level of play a complaining player is at. Even when you get the players on this thread to admit this, its only under the veil of "yea but the toss player has to play WAAY better." Again why has toss historically had the higher win % over Terran in all levels of platinum (later diamond) play? Not radically higher, but a good 54-52%. Sounds kind of balanced to me...
This substantial evidence you are talking about is what? I'm calling bs on that one - and a pretty major one at that.
For the rest of your post you would probably benefit from actually reading other peoples posts instead of going off on a pointless rant...
On June 14 2010 09:56 STS17 wrote: Hmm...would adding a game-wide shout out saying "Warning: Nuclear Launch EMP Detected" and then a 20 second delay before the Nuke EMP goes off satisfy anyone?
Personally, I think people need to reword this whole "Protoss have no answer to EMP" argument. Maybe I'm the only one but to me that says that as soon as EMP hits the field it becomes impossible for the Protoss player to win because no matter what they do they can't overcome the Terran army. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe there are many games where the Terran player still gets EMP and loses right? It would seem those victorious Protoss players have found an answer to it since they did win after all.
You are totally right - it is worded wrongly - read my post on page 11 for what the actual complaint is.
On June 14 2010 07:56 Kratisto wrote: The question isn't whether Protoss has a counter to EMP. The answer is no. The question is whether, with sufficient scouting (Hallucinated Phoenixes, Obs, air unit fly-bys), a Protoss player can spot the Ghost Academy and build an army capable of withstanding the damage done by EMP, then winning. Without tons of replays or being able to play the game, I don't think anyone can answer that question: There are too many factors, like whether a Chargelot army can overcome a stimmed bioball with one third of their health missing and no caster support.
There's been substantial evidence that the question is answered: YES, toss player can EASILY win a ground a fight when EMPed. There has been no evidence provided that Terran players using ghosts have any kind of substantial edge over Protoss. Just a lot of complaining with no real basis provided. At least in the T mech vs Zerg arguments, you have top players of BOTH races attesting that it was imbalanced, with replays and stats provided. Even in this case, it turns out that time seems to providing zerg with other answers than "nerf mech." There has been nothing like that provided here, and furthermore, there is no evidence that this opinion on OP ghosts is extremely wide spread. Marauders probably get way more complaints, which is a testament to the average level of play a complaining player is at. Even when you get the players on this thread to admit this, its only under the veil of "yea but the toss player has to play WAAY better." Again why has toss historically had the higher win % over Terran in all levels of platinum (later diamond) play? Not radically higher, but a good 54-52%. Sounds kind of balanced to me...
Seriously, stop arguing strawman and actually read what other people are saying. You keep trying to make this a "Toss QQing about Terran OP" when that is not the discussion at all.
On June 14 2010 09:56 STS17 wrote: Hmm...would adding a game-wide shout out saying "Warning: Nuclear Launch EMP Detected" and then a 20 second delay before the Nuke EMP goes off satisfy anyone?
Personally, I think people need to reword this whole "Protoss have no answer to EMP" argument. Maybe I'm the only one but to me that says that as soon as EMP hits the field it becomes impossible for the Protoss player to win because no matter what they do they can't overcome the Terran army. Correct me if I am wrong but I do believe there are many games where the Terran player still gets EMP and loses right? It would seem those victorious Protoss players have found an answer to it since they did win after all.
I've been trying to be as careful as I can with my word choices. I've even tried to avoid using the loaded word "counter" in this discussion. The way I've phrased it is hopefully not being misread (by anyone other than D3tla ), and that is: Protoss has no workable solution to prevent/mitigate the effects of EMP.
The other component of my stance is: Protoss has to work harder than Terran in order to overcome the effects of EMP. I'm tired of all Terran players (again, of which I am one) saying that the answer to everything against Terran is "work harder." This is another form of imbalance that needs to be addressed. But honestly, at this point, I'd just be happy if Toss had any workable solution.
I was platinum before the beta closed so I'm not great at this game. That being said, in plat games as a protoss in PvT I found emp's effectiveness most significant on the immortal. Zealots, even after an emp shot, can still tank somewhat and stand against marines. The real threat is the marauder. Most toss will field immortals to deal with marauders. Because of the 5 range it is impossible to bring them in range of the MM ball and protect them from emp. The hardened shield is the best toss answer to marauders. If 1 emp can eliminate the same shield as 10 marauder shots then the ghost renders immortals nearly useless, especially since they have difficulty retreating.
I dont agree with massive buffs or nerfs. The best change I can see would be for the hardened shields to reduce the emp damage to 10 like any other attack. The emp would not change at all. This would mitigate the loss of all energy and 100 shield in range of the emp, because the main protoss edge would still be there. Not only is this a small change, it does not affect zerg at all!
I really wish there was a liquibet for balance changes.
I'm pretty darned sure that before the first expansion EMP will be a projectile and / or have a range nerf. EMP is incredibly strong vs P and should be so because it makes the game interesting, but the current range and instant cast rate simply make it more difficult that it should be to position against and micro against respectively imho.
I hope that both changes are made but I'll put money that at least one is. Moving it to the Raven sounds like a nice idea but the ghost would be left with just snipe and nuke which isn't enough to make it more than a 'nuke guy that isn't totally worthless when not nuking'.
On June 14 2010 05:56 0mar wrote: EMP goes to raven, 50e lockdown on ghosts as a researchable, 100/100 70s.
This is a pretty good suggestion imo.
Raven can drop either turret or hsm, gets EMP as a research ability (200/200, 110s similar to sc1). EMP range drop to 6.
Lockdown on ghosts would be great, since its single target. You can still counter it with feedback if u are fast at HT micro.
Edit: There's no reason why terran needs to have a super powerful anti-protoss ability at T1.5. A barracks army at t1.5 has no issues with a similar tech protoss army at this timing window. EMP should be on the field by the time protoss can field HT or powerful mass armies, so T3 on Raven fits.
On June 14 2010 05:56 0mar wrote: EMP goes to raven, 50e lockdown on ghosts as a researchable, 100/100 70s.
This is a pretty good suggestion imo.
Raven can drop either turret or hsm, gets EMP as a research ability (200/200, 110s similar to sc1). EMP range drop to 6.
Lockdown on ghosts would be great, since its single target. You can still counter it with feedback if u are fast at HT micro.
Edit: There's no reason why terran needs to have a super powerful anti-protoss ability at T1.5. A barracks army at t1.5 has no issues with a similar tech protoss army at this timing window. EMP should be on the field by the time protoss can field HT or powerful mass armies, so T3 on Raven fits.
All of those are really drastic changes that would make EMP come out far later. Why would a Terran player use EMP at all when it's competing for energy with Point Defense Drone? I think it would become an even less-used Seeker Missile. I like the EMP on the Ghost, and I think that it's close to being balanced, but it definitely needs a tweak. Making it range 6 would make it a little weaker to Feedback, and would make Ghosts a lot easier to snipe. Giving the EMP a projectile or nuke-style calldown (but on a much shorter timer) would make it dodgeable Psi Storm style. Moving it to a much higher tech, increasing its cost, reducing its range, and putting it on a unit which has a much better ability competing for energy, though, would be far too drastic.
On June 14 2010 05:56 0mar wrote: EMP goes to raven, 50e lockdown on ghosts as a researchable, 100/100 70s.
This is a pretty good suggestion imo.
Raven can drop either turret or hsm, gets EMP as a research ability (200/200, 110s similar to sc1). EMP range drop to 6.
Lockdown on ghosts would be great, since its single target. You can still counter it with feedback if u are fast at HT micro.
Edit: There's no reason why terran needs to have a super powerful anti-protoss ability at T1.5. A barracks army at t1.5 has no issues with a similar tech protoss army at this timing window. EMP should be on the field by the time protoss can field HT or powerful mass armies, so T3 on Raven fits.
All of those are really drastic changes that would make EMP come out far later. Why would a Terran player use EMP at all when it's competing for energy with Point Defense Drone? I think it would become an even less-used Seeker Missile. I like the EMP on the Ghost, and I think that it's close to being balanced, but it definitely needs a tweak. Making it range 6 would make it a little weaker to Feedback, and would make Ghosts a lot easier to snipe. Giving the EMP a projectile or nuke-style calldown (but on a much shorter timer) would make it dodgeable Psi Storm style. Moving it to a much higher tech, increasing its cost, reducing its range, and putting it on a unit which has a much better ability competing for energy, though, would be far too drastic.
PDD is awesome vs stalker heavy armies, so use that if there's a lot of stalkers. Makes it a joke to defeat that composition. If it's not stalker heavy, use the EMP. As it is now, no mass stalkers, the raven isn't very useful.
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it."
I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!?
This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion.
Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.
Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.
On June 14 2010 14:24 metaldragon wrote: Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it."
I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!?
This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion.
Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.
No; In BW, there was nothing like EMP in SC2. ZvT was equally challenging to play on both sides, as was TvP (if you're P and just 1a2a3a against mech T, you're asking to get pwned). And every unit or spell had a reasonable working solution.
I'm more in favor of giving Toss a solution (like Guardian Shield deflecting one EMP blast but getting removed in the process) rather than nerfing EMP, although I think a range nerf would be reasonable.
On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote: Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.
1a syndrome at its finest!
Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND!
Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier.
I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP!
Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO.
On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote: Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.
1a syndrome at its finest!
Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND!
Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier.
I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP!
Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO.
Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding?
I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them.
If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line.
I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol...
Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea..
On June 14 2010 13:46 Champi wrote:t it just makes terran bio destory protoss lol
Protoss players learned how to beat Terran bio long ago. Go check out White-Ra vs Maka (I think that was the one, correct me if I'm wrong) on Day[9]'s cast.
High Templars rip through bio and as long as they're split they can't all be EMPed.
On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote: Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.
1a syndrome at its finest!
Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND!
Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier.
I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP!
Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO.
Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding?
I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them.
If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line.
I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol...
Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea..
I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier.
I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things.
Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain!
EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback
you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning!
You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P
1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT...
4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army.
Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote: Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.
1a syndrome at its finest!
Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND!
Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier.
I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP!
Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO.
Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding?
I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them.
If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line.
I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol...
Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea..
I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier.
I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things.
Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain!
EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback
you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning!
You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P
1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT...
4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army.
Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
I didn't mean pure immortal by "straight up" I just meant that having immortals in ur army even w/o EMP doesn't break tank lines. I makes it a bit easier, but it really doesn't...so we agree on that =P. Btw you vastly overestimate massing immortals...its really a bad ideal in general b/c a good terran will intercept u and they'll never get to the tanks. Even w/"ok" positioning.
What I was suggesting was that by letting immortals get an upgrade to avoid EMP, it lets you use them on the ground a bit more effectively then b4 (which is don't build them in general late game vs mech).
I'm not complaining about mech or the ghost. I just saying that toss should be able to employ the immortal as it was designed (as a tank mixed in w/their army). I actually like the back and forth of EMP vs HTs...I just don't like how they essentially make it so u can't use the immortal in a designed role.
On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote: Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.
1a syndrome at its finest!
Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND!
Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier.
I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP!
Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO.
Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding?
I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them.
If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line.
I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol...
Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea..
I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier.
I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things.
Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain!
EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback
you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning!
You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P
1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT...
4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army.
Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
I didn't mean pure immortal by "straight up" I just meant that having immortals in ur army even w/o EMP doesn't break tank lines. I makes it a bit easier, but it really doesn't...so we agree on that =P. Btw you vastly overestimate massing immortals...its really a bad ideal in general b/c a good terran will intercept u and they'll never get to the tanks. Even w/"ok" positioning.
What I was suggesting was that by letting immortals get an upgrade to avoid EMP, it lets you use them on the ground a bit more effectively then b4 (which is don't build them in general late game vs mech).
I'm not complaining about mech or the ghost. I just saying that toss should be able to employ the immortal as it was designed (as a tank mixed in w/their army). I actually like the back and forth of EMP vs HTs...I just don't like how they essentially make it so u can't use the immortal in a designed role.
Make more immortals if you need them to tank more. Immortals tank just fine like i said unless the terran has 20 siege tanks the immortals will win out just fine and cost less gas strait up.
If he has ghost thats even less gas he will have for tanks. There are tons of solutions to your problems you clearly are stuck on 1Aing your way thru the tank like reguardless as showing by your insane "make immortal immune to EMP comment".
Immortals tank just fine. Need more tanking power? hallucinate a few of them before battle if your that cheap about it! I mean if you took 2 minutes to honestly think about how to solve your problem past "NERF PLEASE" you would have easily come up with solutions.
On June 14 2010 14:31 Praeses wrote: Personally (Im a mid-low diamond toss) I think that EMP isn't really that bad until you reach late game. The Early Ghost/bio push is quite strong...but a timing push SHOULD be strong and hard to deal with.
However...the thing that bothers me about EMP is that it completely destroys any reason to use immortals to tank against ghost/mech (phoenix is just awkward since they too can be EMPed) and i guess marauders (although stimmed marauders kill immortals so fast even w/hardened shield).
Therefore, I propose the rather than nerf EMP...instead give the toss an upgrade at the robo support bay that makes immortal hardened shields immune to EMP. This allows the immortal to actually tank like its supposed to, but delays it so that the immortal isnt uncounterable by terran in the midgame. This makes EMP slightly weaker late game, but still amazing as a hp reducer and anti spellcaster ability.
1a syndrome at its finest!
Ghost make breaking a tank line Harder ON THE GROUND!
Heard of Void rays or i dunno Sc1 Style Carriers or even a mother ship to vortex and force tanks out of seige mode? Heard they make breaking tank lines 10x easier.
I mean come on people this is getting a little silly to say the least. Its like a Terran saying hey my thors Die to immortals Nerf Harden shield plz because i don't want to use EMP!
Its Never been a good idea to EVER walk into a tank line in any match up EVER and having a few immortals still doesn't mean you should be able to with ease...easier yeah with ease...NO.
Tell me, do u even read posts b4 responding?
I said nothing about changing EMP...also I was just stating that EMP disabled the designed role of immortals to tank heavy hitting damage. Straight up immortals don't break tank lines even if they don't have ghosts...something about have no range...so as long as u have units infront of your tanks, you're fine...b/c god knows if the toss can walk their slow immortals around and flank your tanks completely undefended, u deserve to lose them.
If you really think that this suggestion is so ridiculous...I suggest u try building immortals against a mech practice partner and tell them not to use EMP on them...immortals still arent a good way to break a tank line.
I agree that void rays w/flux veins r good vs mech (w/o them viking kite makes them a lot less useful)...but mothership? really? If you have ghosts and u cant emp that flying snail...ur terrible...lol...
Carriers r bad btw...intercepters die really fast...and they die pretty fast (40/40 light vs thor aoe+rines+vikings?)...yea..
I think you have the wrong idea...Pure immortal isn't suppose to break tank lines only make it easier.
I think the whole train of though of "how to nerf EMP" over "how to get rid of the ghost before the emp gets off" is the wrong way to look at things.
Blizz will be nerfing a new unit each week the way some of you complain!
EMP is not the problem how your dealing with it is. If your army is spread it takes a Ton more EMP to deal with. HT CAN STILL Feedback
you need 20 siege tanks before they counter immortals strait up and thats with perfect positioning!
You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P
1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT...
4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army.
Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
I didn't mean pure immortal by "straight up" I just meant that having immortals in ur army even w/o EMP doesn't break tank lines. I makes it a bit easier, but it really doesn't...so we agree on that =P. Btw you vastly overestimate massing immortals...its really a bad ideal in general b/c a good terran will intercept u and they'll never get to the tanks. Even w/"ok" positioning.
What I was suggesting was that by letting immortals get an upgrade to avoid EMP, it lets you use them on the ground a bit more effectively then b4 (which is don't build them in general late game vs mech).
I'm not complaining about mech or the ghost. I just saying that toss should be able to employ the immortal as it was designed (as a tank mixed in w/their army). I actually like the back and forth of EMP vs HTs...I just don't like how they essentially make it so u can't use the immortal in a designed role.
Make more immortals if you need them to tank more. Immortals tank just fine like i said unless the terran has 20 siege tanks the immortals will win out just fine and cost less gas strait up.
If he has ghost thats even less gas he will have for tanks. There are tons of solutions to your problems you clearly are stuck on 1Aing your way thru the tank like reguardless as showing by your insane "make immortal immune to EMP comment".
Immortals tank just fine. Need more tanking power? hallucinate a few of them before battle if your that cheap about it! I mean if you took 2 minutes to honestly think about how to solve your problem past "NERF PLEASE" you would have easily come up with solutions.
Ok...first...calm down...don't get so defensive/offended....
I'm not "stuck on 1Aing through a tank line"...against mech I go air (phoenix to void ray late game) and get generally charge lots, blink stalkers...some templar and robo for obs/warp prism harrass...it works out fairly well...its pretty fun to play.
I'm just saying that immortals don't fulfill their role at all against terran and outside of a strong midgame timing push, they're almost never worth building...collosus is much better against bio and they're not good vs mech b/c of EMP. Honestly...a toss player wouldnt be able to use immortals against mech even w/o EMP b/c their crippled by both slow movement speed and short range.
I like what EMP brings to the terran vs toss meta, esp trying to use storm against ghost/bio. I just feel that it makes immortals the red headed stepchild of toss...and I wanted a way that tosses could use them more in the late game vs mech.
On June 14 2010 13:46 Champi wrote:t it just makes terran bio destory protoss lol
Protoss players learned how to beat Terran bio long ago. Go check out White-Ra vs Maka (I think that was the one, correct me if I'm wrong) on Day[9]'s cast.
High Templars rip through bio and as long as they're split they can't all be EMPed.
High Templars will only "rip through bio" if you poorly place your bio (clumping marines together, instead of using marauders to tank), let your units sit in the storms, and/or allow your medivacs to get feedback'd. Also, HT's absolutely can be consistently EMP'd - A T going bio can afford to have at LEAST as many ghosts as I as a P have temps, and after you take care of the temps, it's easy enough to use the leftover energy on units, knock out shields and energy, then ROFLSTOMP the P.
If it were possible to micro away from EMP (read: make it a projectile) so that if I'm paying attention I have a CHANCE to not have almost half my army's health eliminated with a few shift clicks. Don't tell me to spread my units better - any spread that's realizable on the current ladder maps is still only going to take a handful of EMPs rather than a single one.
If EMP were a projectile, it would still be very powerful, especially if cast when marauders were in range, because slow > retreat. BUT it would make it so that toss had some solution (notice that word. Solution, not counter. I'm looking for something possible, but not necessarily easy) to EMP. Then things would be fine.
On June 14 2010 15:33 metaldragon wrote: You have a ton of ways to deal with ghost as P
1. HT feedback (its a micro war but hey better skills win out in the end anyway) 2. DT snipe (very few builds have raven out soon enough to stop this and scans are not Cheap!) 3. For mech you have the phonix to snipe the ghost. 4-5 phonix can snipe a few ghost before they go down. Move in similat to how Z does vs P after the muta snipe HT...
4. starport tech also opens you up to getting voids that further weaking the effectiveness of a heavy tank army.
Start THINKING and stop crying nerf because your too lazy to do anything but 1a!
1: Feedback Range: 9. EMP Range: 10 + 2 Radius = 12. Feedback is single target (requires more precision). Between two equally skilled players, EMP should win. Also, HT's are higher tiered units.
2: EMP reveals DT's. Terran players get Orbital Command early.
3: Graviton Beam Range: 4. EMP Range: 10 + 2 Radius. Ghosts do excellent damage against Light units and Pheonixes are Light units.
4: Tanks and Void Rays are irrelevant to a discussion about dealing with EMP.
Army spreading helps (ie: not 1a'ing), but assuming a Terran can obtain a paltry two ghosts by the midgame (as brat_OK did in the latest Day9), it's not hard to cover a well-spread Protoss army with EMP's.
In an effort to "Start THINKING" and just deal with the game as if it is perfectly balanced by the hand of god, I'd like to find an effective army composition against brat_OK's opening. It basically went with one barracks with a tech lab and one barracks with a reactor, then a ghost academy, then a starport for medivacs. He got a reaper with which to scout, then pumped lots of marines and got Shields and Stim and a handful of ghosts. Most of the damage in this build is coming from the marine heavy army, and brat_OK always did a mid-game timing push as soon as Stim finished. A marine-heavy army composition would suck against Colossi, but those wouldn't be up yet, so I can probably rule that out, unless you can think of a Colossus rush that is stable in more situations. DT rush didn't work against brat_OK because he built a wall and EMP'd the DT's sent to his ramp until the tech lab and raven at his starport were finished. The build ran over a couple different variations of warpgate heavy armies, and, of course, it rolled over Immortals (Marined are already good against Immortals). I also noticed that brat_OK scouted a stargate and didn't alter his build or unit composition at all. That Stargate was cancelled, but the fact that the Terran player didn't freak out leads me to believe Stargate tech isn't incredibly strong against the marine-ghost-medivac army composition. DT's might force a Terran player to expend an EMP and only kill one unit, but going DT's always means that you're bread 'n butter army is weakened, so the effect of removing EMP might be offset by your own weakened army. So what does that leave a Protoss player with? My initial instinct is that Chargelots would rock, since they retain two thirds of their health when EMPed. Day9 mentioned that if the mid game timing push was unsuccessful, brat_OK transitioned into marauder heavy armies (so Chargelots, again, would be pretty handy) or tank-heavy armies (Chargelots get roasted, but maybe a Void Ray transition would be viable).
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it."
I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!?
This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion.
Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.
Let's keep this civil alright?
1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a.
2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.
3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint.
It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument.
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it."
I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!?
This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion.
Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.
Let's keep this civil alright?
1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a.
2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.
3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint.
It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument.
If Its not breaking the match up then Why in the world are you crying nerf?!
This has been going on since the beginning of the beta and blizz has already nerfed the spell multiple times.
Dont want your immortals emped? Put them in a warp prism!
Same With your HT!
I mean a little micro > every complain in this thread.
None of you want to do anything but hope and pray the blizz gods nerf the other races in your favor.
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it."
I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!?
This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion.
Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.
Let's keep this civil alright?
1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a.
2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.
3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint.
It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument.
If Its not breaking the match up then Why in the world are you crying nerf?!
This has been going on since the beginning of the beta and blizz has already nerfed the spell multiple times.
Dont want your immortals emped? Put them in a warp prism!
Same With your HT!
I mean a little micro > every complain in this thread.
None of you want to do anything but hope and pray the blizz gods nerf the other races in your favor.
I guess keeping it civil really isn't your style...
What should Huk have done in the replay day9 went through?
Wheter or not the spell has been nerfed before isn't interesting at all - the VR had been nerfed before the range nerf as well.
The problem is that it isn't "a little micro" it is "a lot of micro which still won't significantly help if the terran has a brain" - que Brat-OK vs Huk.
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Boo Fing Whoo! Like seriously all this Call for nerfs simpy because "its easier to use EMP than it is to counter it."
I'm sorry Did anyone play ZvT in Sc1 or TvP? Do you honestly think that 1a2a3a is Harder to do than Set up a siege line > lay mines and properly position vultures to Avoid getting ROFLstomped!?
This is honestly not even close to a valid complaint and with the same logic numerous other abilities would be nerf in similar fashion.
Emp has seen 2-3 nerfs already and honestly at this point is fine. You don't see Top Terrain Walking all over toss 70% of the games due to emp.
Let's keep this civil alright?
1) yes I have played BW - admittedly not for the last 3 years, but I was pretty active before that - yet I dare say you would benefit from playing the other races as well if you think all Z and P did was 1a2a3a.
2) You might want to actually read the posts other people write - no one has claimed this to be breaking the MU.
3) The standard of equal payout for equal work is one blizzard themselves have stated they balance by - making this a valid complaint.
It's fine if you disagree, but please do so respectfully whilst at least trying to see the other side of the argument.
If Its not breaking the match up then Why in the world are you crying nerf?!
This has been going on since the beginning of the beta and blizz has already nerfed the spell multiple times.
Dont want your immortals emped? Put them in a warp prism!
Same With your HT!
I mean a little micro > every complain in this thread.
None of you want to do anything but hope and pray the blizz gods nerf the other races in your favor.
I guess keeping it civil really isn't your style...
What should Huk have done in the replay day9 went through?
Wheter or not the spell has been nerfed before isn't interesting at all - the VR had been nerfed before the range nerf as well.
The problem is that it isn't "a little micro" it is "a lot of micro which still won't significantly help if the terran has a brain" - que Brat-OK vs Huk.
there was only 1-2 ghost and plenty of time any templar tech would have demolished the build Bratok Did.
Storm and feedback hurt medivac,ghost and marines all HARD.
Even 1-2 DT would have been enough to snipe the ghost and again make it a cake walk.
The issue here is Most Toss are STUCK on robo only tech Vs T and would rather See the ghost nerfed before they Use Templar tech.
You have other tech options...use them.
Most of your train of though is just plain Backwards
This is how most of you ARE thinking
--I Like using this strat and i see alot of other Toss doing this but MOVE A is really hard to beat how should blizz nerf MOVE A?
instead of
-- Move A Is giving alot of Toss Problems What can we do differently To combat Move A?
All i see in this thread is Toss saying "the sky is falling our standard BO don't work 65% of the time". Toss was 60:40 vs T last time we had the data to check BTW.
Huk lost that game due to bad scouting period. Bratok went marine heavy and Huk Still had immortals in his army composition when he should have had either faster collisi or Templar to properly counter heavy marines.
Oh, now that Day9 covers a replay of a known player doing it, all of a sudden its viable. Nevermind the rest of us talking about it for the last 3 weeks or anything. No, we're just crazy.
Does this mean we can stop all of the:
"Its IMPOSSIBLE to get Ghosts!" "Early Ghosts aren't viable!" "Everyone goes mech!" "You're just bad" "It costs way too much gas!" "You're Protoss, just 1a2a3a and win"
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Being a protoss player myself, the only thing that I have against EMP is the idea that Terran gets a anti-P ability by default. No race should get any anti-race abilities by default in my humble oppinion.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
On June 15 2010 00:42 Ghostcom wrote: Okay I think it is settled, metaldragon is trolling...
I'm Trolling because I'm suggesting way you can actually Beat the build instead of acting like the sky is falling?
You're trolling because you seriously think that you're smarter than others. In fact you act like other are mindless trash.
I'm mindless trash but you take 1-2 games of huk losing to a build and cry imbalance?
Which one of us do you honestly think is being mindless right here?
Is the build effective of course it is vs The Standard Toss BO right now
Is it imbalance?....Hardly
You have ways to deal with ghost early.
Feedback - Hard but doable! DT snipe - Scans are in short supply!
Phoenix snipe - 3x easier with move and shot.
You have solutions you can either
A. Try to use them B. Cry about EMP
What makes this even worst is that T is on the LOW end of the win rate for this match up and you want to make it even Harder.
Right, so you think Protoss needs to use T3 units in order to take out ghosts, which are tier 1.5 and EMP, which needs no researching?
It's already been reiterated by not just diamond league players, but more well known pros that Feedback is NOT a good counter for ghosts because EMP not only outranges it, but it's near impossible to be able to snipe a ghost in a bioball because it's extremely well hidden and camouflaged into the army. In addition, if the Terran cloaks his ghosts it's almost impossible to even notice that the ghosts are present until after the EMP hits.
Also, how do you "snipe" a ghost with DTs when ghosts have 100 hp and it takes 2-3 hits (depending on upgrades) for a DT to kill the ghost? Ghosts are no longer flimsy paperweights that die when you poke them. The have a good amount of hp and can survive several hits especially with medivacs healing them. A good Terran will scan (or even just panic-EMP) and destroy the DT extremely fast. Additionally, if they're on the defensive, well-placed Turrets, or even just a wall-in can easily stop DTs from ever even hitting your ghosts. Or they could just pick up the ghost asap with a medivac. -.-
Phoenix could snipe a DT but it's even worse than the other two alternatives you suggested. Clicking on a ghost in a bioball is ridiculously hard due to clumping and also to even spot teh ghost. Also, it takes even longer for a Phoenix to kill a ghost (5 shots total) and even if you had enough Phoenixes to one-shot a lifted ghost you'll likely be throwing away all those units because since ghosts are gas heavy, the Terran will likely have tons of marines which just rip through Phoenix in no time at all.
I'm not trying to say EMP is OP or needs to be changed. Rather, the solution is simply to get better at micro, imo. However, stupid Terrans need to stop giving bad advice and suggestions that don't work and have ALREADY been said to be ineffective by not just whiny diamond league players but TOP, KNOWN players as well. If you don't believe me, then just use the search function and look up any of the 10000000 EMP v. Feedback debate threads. I believe someone also quoted some noteworthy players earlier in this very thread, as well.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
On June 15 2010 00:42 Ghostcom wrote: Okay I think it is settled, metaldragon is trolling...
I'm Trolling because I'm suggesting way you can actually Beat the build instead of acting like the sky is falling?
You're trolling because you seriously think that you're smarter than others. In fact you act like other are mindless trash.
I'm mindless trash but you take 1-2 games of huk losing to a build and cry imbalance?
Which one of us do you honestly think is being mindless right here?
Is the build effective of course it is vs The Standard Toss BO right now
Is it imbalance?....Hardly
You have ways to deal with ghost early.
Feedback - Hard but doable! DT snipe - Scans are in short supply!
Phoenix snipe - 3x easier with move and shot.
You have solutions you can either
A. Try to use them B. Cry about EMP
What makes this even worst is that T is on the LOW end of the win rate for this match up and you want to make it even Harder.
Right, so you think Protoss needs to use T3 units in order to take out ghosts, which are tier 1.5 and EMP, which needs no researching?
It's already been reiterated by not just diamond league players, but more well known pros that Feedback is NOT a good counter for ghosts because EMP not only outranges it, but it's near impossible to be able to snipe a ghost in a bioball because it's extremely well hidden and camouflaged into the army. In addition, if the Terran cloaks his ghosts it's almost impossible to even notice that the ghosts are present until after the EMP hits.
Also, how do you "snipe" a ghost with DTs when ghosts have 100 hp and it takes 2-3 hits (depending on upgrades) for a DT to kill the ghost? Ghosts are no longer flimsy paperweights that die when you poke them. The have a good amount of hp and can survive several hits especially with medivacs healing them. A good Terran will scan (or even just panic-EMP) and destroy the DT extremely fast. Additionally, if they're on the defensive, well-placed Turrets, or even just a wall-in can easily stop DTs from ever even hitting your ghosts. Or they could just pick up the ghost asap with a medivac. -.-
Phoenix could snipe a DT but it's even worse than the other two alternatives you suggested. Clicking on a ghost in a bioball is ridiculously hard due to clumping and also to even spot teh ghost. Also, it takes even longer for a Phoenix to kill a ghost (5 shots total) and even if you had enough Phoenixes to one-shot a lifted ghost you'll likely be throwing away all those units because since ghosts are gas heavy, the Terran will likely have tons of marines which just rip through Phoenix in no time at all.
I'm not trying to say EMP is OP or needs to be changed. Rather, the solution is simply to get better at micro, imo. However, stupid Terrans need to stop giving bad advice and suggestions that don't work and have ALREADY been said to be ineffective by not just whiny diamond league players but TOP, KNOWN players as well. If you don't believe me, then just use the search function and look up any of the 10000000 EMP v. Feedback debate threads. I believe someone also quoted some noteworthy players earlier in this very thread, as well.
Where do i Start With this?
1. Phoenixes where suggested Vs ghost Mech which would be heavy on tanks and anti ground and not anti air.
2. They are still not a bad idea vs normal bio since taking out his ghost and emp hurts his army composition alot more then losing your phonixes.
3. phoenixes are the exact same tier as ghost (rax>tech lab>ghost academy - Gate > Core > Stargate)
4. DT Sniping has been done in high level games and has worked out just fine this is not theorycraft.
5. Feedback is not a direct counter or perfect solution but its effective even if he wastes his EMP on your templar instead of your army. templar can still morph into archons while ghost are practically useless with no energy.
At least we Agree on Toss players just needing to micro a bit better.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Sure. Expo and then have an even smaller army when he's pushing.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Rushing to ghosts, the first one pops at (60/40/40 - rax/acad/ghost) 140 seconds, EMP ready to go.
No, you don't have time to get Templar. Rushing directly to them is still 25/65/50/50/50 (pylon/gate/core/tc/ta) = 240s. This is not at all a viable or stable rush, as they still don't have storm, (another 110 seconds) and you don't have enough of an army to back them up. Rushing to a single collossi is 345 seconds (325 if you chrono the collossi itself) and we all know how fragile a single collossus is, especially when the opponent has EMP. Again because you're rushing, you won't have the meat shields to protect it, and you are GOING to lose this battle.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Thing is - your "proper responses" don't work. If you can come up with an ACTUALLY VIABLE response, and stop giving us crap that does nothing I'd be glad to listen to your posts. But as of now, you're not contributing to the discussion, you're trolling. Please stop.
Ohbtw, make emp projectile pls. Been my stance since.... basically forever.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
I'm not saying to rush BOTH either or is just fine or just turtling down at your expo with your normal army and a few cannons. If you get caught in the open with the wrong army composition of course your going to get hammered.
metaldragon, the more you respond, the more I agree with Ghostcom re: you trolling. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk up your posts to inexperience and arrogance, but some of the suggestions you mention are just downright silly, off-topic, pompous, rude, and provocative. This, my friend, is trolling.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Sure. Expo and then have an even smaller army when he's pushing.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Rushing to ghosts, the first one pops at (60/40/40 - rax/acad/ghost) 140 seconds, EMP ready to go.
No, you don't have time to get Templar. Rushing directly to them is still 25/65/50/50/50 (pylon/gate/core/tc/ta) = 240s. This is not at all a viable or stable rush, as they still don't have storm, (another 110 seconds) and you don't have enough of an army to back them up. Rushing to a single collossi is 345 seconds (325 if you chrono the collossi itself) and we all know how fragile a single collossus is, especially when the opponent has EMP. Again because you're rushing, you won't have the meat shields to protect it, and you are GOING to lose this battle.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Thing is - your "proper responses" don't work. If you can come up with an ACTUALLY VIABLE response, and stop giving us crap that does nothing I'd be glad to listen to your posts. But as of now, you're not contributing to the discussion, you're trolling. Please stop.
Ohbtw, make emp projectile pls. Been my stance since.... basically forever.
Clearly its impossible to beat early ghost/rine there's nothing toss can possible do...nope.
Yeah I'm done.
You people clearly wont stop until you see some type of emp nerf in some way shape or form even with toss having a higher win % in the match up.
If Blizz has to patch every other week due to people whining about Nerf X it will be the death of E- Sports.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
LOL, i know,earlier i was talking to a zerg who said to get Hellion (T2) vs zergling (T1). HOW AM I SOPPOSE TO HAVE HELLIONS BY THEN? Brat_OK pushes out with stim/shielded marines, sevril medivacs and ghosts. Its at post 10:00 mark usually. This is plenty of time to get a colossi out. As soon as herd day9 was doing a daily on brat_ok's "cool tvp strategy" I knew this thread would be exploding with replay examples (something it severely lacked before). Obviously day[9] isn't going to go "hey check out brat_ok's build" and show 3 replays of him getting owned. The main reason Brat won the first game vs HuK so easily, was obviously due to a failed DT rush. Everything that could have went wrong for HuK did, the barely enough scan right into fortunate (or "good guess") raven production, the wall off ect. Brat_ok was able to push at his build's strongest point right after HuK poured resources into DTs. HuK did what he could, but he was just hard countered. The second game, people fail to mention the drop, which is really what won the game for Brat. It totally took by surprise and got him completely out of position. Remember how obvious it was that Brat couldn't leave his base with HuK sitting in position? What would happen if it weren't for a great timed drop? Well, probably something like this:
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
I'm not saying to rush BOTH either or is just fine or just turtling down at your expo with your normal army and a few cannons. If you get caught in the open with the wrong army composition of course your going to get hammered.
Rushing either is going to limit your "normal army", and doing so is still not going to get HT, DT (even if they were a good answer) or Collossi out in time.
Ghosts are an even tech level with sentry/stalker. If you're talking upgrades like cloak, stim + rine health, give the toss blink and charge (which takes the twilight council - longer build time than a tech lab and requires that core be built already) because those have equivalent research times. Except that you can only reasearch them one at a time. Lets ignore that.
Chargelots, sentries and blink stalkers still get eaten alive by mass rines and EMP.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
I'm not saying to rush BOTH either or is just fine or just turtling down at your expo with your normal army and a few cannons. If you get caught in the open with the wrong army composition of course your going to get hammered.
Dude...even getting just ONE of the two takes much LONGER than getting stim and health.
Also, in your other response to my other post, you said Phoenix are same tier as Ghost. That is wrong. You cannot compare Gateway -> Core -> Stargate to Barracks -> Tech lab -> Academy. Core is almost 10 times more expensive than tech lab and it takes MUCH longer to build than a tech lab.
I agree that Phoenix could work if the Terran goes mech as Phoenix are a good unit to have against mech anyways. However, when you go Phoenix against bioball, your Phoenix are extremely precious and throwing them away to snipe your opponent's ghosts will put you at much more of a disadvantage than the Terran.
Just because something has happened, doesn't mean it works. Sure, maybe Pro A successfully used Feedback to kill ghosts against Pro B in Match C. That doesn't make it a good counter. I personally have used feedback against ghosts in a ladder match, but the problem is that in order to do so requires the Terran player to make a mistake; either in leaving their ghosts out in the open, or simply just looking the other way. Feedback v. ghost is simply just not a good idea due to the sheer difficulty in doing so.
Again, I have to stress that I personally do not believe EMP needs to be changed. However, certain ideas JUST DON'T WORK and people need to stop acting like they do.
The only thing those replays (including D3lta's) definitely prove is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't have to simply accept the eventuality of being EMPed without a damn thing he can do about it.
I think this thread needs to be taken down a few notches, it's getting rather heated and nobody is getting anywhere.
I think a few things need to be agreed upon and "defined" if you will in order for a reasonable (and hopefully productive, but hell this is the internet so let's not get too hopeful) discussion can occur.
I have read most of this thread and posted a couple times in the previous pages as well so I am fairly in the loop as far as the discussion goes. I would like to offer my perspective on what the Protoss players want and what the Terran players are saying.
Both sides have come to the general consensus that the spell is not overpowered but is very difficult to handle. What (some) Protoss players are looking for appears to be a way to "counter" EMP by giving Protoss a way to negate one or more EMPs in one way or another (GS "absorbing" an EMP and Shield Battery suggestions) while others are simply asking for a way to dodge the EMP or otherwise mitigate its effects (Making it a projectile or delayed blast similar to nuke calldown).
Terran players have responded by suggesting you spread out your units or keep them in warp prisims. There are other suggestions which have generally be refuted such as "just use feedback" or "Storm him" which are obnoxiously vague. What I believe these players are trying to suggest is that the protoss simply try to find an appropriate composition (note: appropriate and effective are two different things, appropriate means it looks good on paper while effective means looks good on paper and works well in game) and if no appropriate measure turns out to be feasable then a change can be made, but until then the Protoss player has to accept that PvT still results in more wins for P.
These appear to be the premise behind both sides arguments and neither is completely unfounded. As a terran player I would personally suggest getting an early TC for charge and get hallucination using Zealot Sentry -> Zealot Sentry Stalker HT. It would seem that with remotely decent positioning it could even deal with Brad_OK's push as charge should be finishing or finished around that time. Hallucination makes 2 Zealots per cast meaning you can make a lot of false tanks to confuse T into EMPing much less effectively. If you have the gas for a fastish +1 armor then that + GS means you take 2 damage per attack from the marines so even stimmed and with half your own health you will be quite strong against them. I don't play P so I don't know if the timings of this is even remotely possible but from watching my brother's play I would venture a guess that most of it can be up and ready when Brad_OK's push comes out.
Okay, so let's do a bit of analysis that compares both sides by relative gas income. I think its safe to assume that both sides will be getting 2 gas fairly early and that neither side is going to get a significantly larger income than the other before the first push comes.
Terran Units: 1 Reaper, 2 Ghosts, 2 Medivacs = 550 gas Tech: Stims, Shield = 300 gas Buildings: Tech Lab, Reactor, Factory, Starport, Ghost Academy = 325 gas
Protoss Buildings: Twilight Council, Templar Archives = 300 gas Tech: Warp Gate, Psi Storm = 250 gas Units: 2 HTs = 300 gas
So that's 325 gas you can spare on things like Stalkers and Sentries to keep the Marine ball at bay. That's just one Sentry and four Stalkers. That's a pitiful amount of gas spent to keep back the kind of Marine ball the Terran can build as time progresses. He'll just scout that, laugh and charge forward with the Marine ball while you're busy teching up to the HT 'counter' to the Ghost/Marine ball.
It basically means you have to spend a metric fuckton of minerals on Zealots as cannon-fodder. You can't afford Zealot speed, either, unless you pick it over Psi Storm. And Zealots just get ripped to shreds by an equal cost in Marines as the blobs get bigger. 1 Zealot beats 2 Marines, but 14 Marines (particularly with Stim and/or Shield, which you ARE getting) can rape 7 Zealots.
Can't get down to specifics, but that 'spare gas' differential leading up to the moment when the Terran feels comfortable moving out, doesn't feel comfortable from the Protoss perspective, at all.
On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
pretty sure only thing most logical toss wants is some way to not just eat an EMP w/e the terran feels like it. i mean if u look at the game as a whole right now, there is nothing else there that 1 race can do n nothing can be done about it.
metaldragon obv has not tried doing any of those things. honestly anyone who brings up feedback should automatically be discredited. dt was a smart thing to do a while ago. 99% of terran will build at least 1 raven as soon as they know dt tech is coming. sacing phoenix to try n take out ghost isnt the greatest idea. its not like they cost a cheap penny.
also some ppl needs to stop acting like ppl only go robo tech route. there r plenty of toss that go templar tech at least at the higher levels. bottomline templar tech is only slightly more effective than robo tech against ghost play
On June 15 2010 02:33 STS17 wrote: I think this thread needs to be taken down a few notches, it's getting rather heated and nobody is getting anywhere.
I think a few things need to be agreed upon and "defined" if you will in order for a reasonable (and hopefully productive, but hell this is the internet so let's not get too hopeful) discussion can occur.
I have read most of this thread and posted a couple times in the previous pages as well so I am fairly in the loop as far as the discussion goes. I would like to offer my perspective on what the Protoss players want and what the Terran players are saying.
Both sides have come to the general consensus that the spell is not overpowered but is very difficult to handle. What (some) Protoss players are looking for appears to be a way to "counter" EMP by giving Protoss a way to negate one or more EMPs in one way or another (GS "absorbing" an EMP and Shield Battery suggestions) while others are simply asking for a way to dodge the EMP or otherwise mitigate its effects (Making it a projectile or delayed blast similar to nuke calldown).
Terran players have responded by suggesting you spread out your units or keep them in warp prisims. There are other suggestions which have generally be refuted such as "just use feedback" or "Storm him" which are obnoxiously vague. What I believe these players are trying to suggest is that the protoss simply try to find an appropriate composition (note: appropriate and effective are two different things, appropriate means it looks good on paper while effective means looks good on paper and works well in game) and if no appropriate measure turns out to be feasable then a change can be made, but until then the Protoss player has to accept that PvT still results in more wins for P.
These appear to be the premise behind both sides arguments and neither is completely unfounded. As a terran player I would personally suggest getting an early TC for charge and get hallucination using Zealot Sentry -> Zealot Sentry Stalker HT. It would seem that with remotely decent positioning it could even deal with Brad_OK's push as charge should be finishing or finished around that time. Hallucination makes 2 Zealots per cast meaning you can make a lot of false tanks to confuse T into EMPing much less effectively. If you have the gas for a fastish +1 armor then that + GS means you take 2 damage per attack from the marines so even stimmed and with half your own health you will be quite strong against them. I don't play P so I don't know if the timings of this is even remotely possible but from watching my brother's play I would venture a guess that most of it can be up and ready when Brad_OK's push comes out.
To get hallucination on time a P is going to have to delay warp gates. if hallucination proves to be the right answer, then they may be able to survive the push. Question is, can a toss afford not to research warp gates for that long? I'd say probably - but you'll be fighting uphill for a while. Charge is pretty unlikely - Toss rushing for core gets it at an even time as T rushing to ghost academy, and then it's 50 seconds for the TC and 140 seconds for the research. I also find myself usually having to slow production in order to get charge right when it's available. That on top of getting hallu and I'm cutting a significant number of sentries.
Still, that could be a possible answer to Brat_ok's strat. Cool. How do we deal with EMP in a more general sense? Say mixed in with lategame bio armies, ghostmech, or worst of all rine/tank/ghost?
On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
wat is the range on infestors compared to ghost?
forcefield needs a natural choke to be completely effective. n u generally need 3-4 ff to cut a army in half at a choke point. if u avoid small chokes ff is not a problem. with emp even if u engage in the open ur still screwed. c the diff?
On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
Fungal Growth doesn't INSTANTLY wipe out half of your health AND drain all of your energy at an unreasonable range. You can stop FG by EMPing the Infestors. You can stop Parasite by just zapping the Infestor doing it. The impact is slight, manageable and its strength depends on how quickly YOU react to it. We don't 'react' to EMP. We just suffer it, fighting with a severe disadvantage, or running away to recharge. That's the difference. And what happens while we're away recharging? Your Ghosts are recharging their own energy and you're probably blowing up one of our expansions, so there comes a time when the Protoss just has to stand his ground, take it up the tailpipe and fight.
If we had Shield Batteries, EMP was a projectile, or it had a shorter range, we would stand a better chance of reacting to the sight of EMP, instead of just taking it in the face.
On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
Fungal Growth and Parasite both have shorter ranges than Ghosts' EMP OR snipe. One snipe = dead infestor. There are plenty of other T units that outrange infestors or can snipe them (e.g. two cloaked banshees make very quick work of them). Infestors are also T2.5 units. Are infestors effective and powerful against T? Sure. But at least T isn't resigned to always taking an infestor spell without a workable solution.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
LOL, i know,earlier i was talking to a zerg who said to get Hellion (T2) vs zergling (T1). HOW AM I SOPPOSE TO HAVE HELLIONS BY THEN? Brat_OK pushes out with stim/shielded marines, sevril medivacs and ghosts. Its at post 10:00 mark usually. This is plenty of time to get a colossi out. As soon as herd day9 was doing a daily on brat_ok's "cool tvp strategy" I knew this thread would be exploding with replay examples (something it severely lacked before). Obviously day[9] isn't going to go "hey check out brat_ok's build" and show 3 replays of him getting owned. The main reason Brat won the first game vs HuK so easily, was obviously due to a failed DT rush. Everything that could have went wrong for HuK did, the barely enough scan right into fortunate (or "good guess") raven production, the wall off ect. Brat_ok was able to push at his build's strongest point right after HuK poured resources into DTs. HuK did what he could, but he was just hard countered. The second game, people fail to mention the drop, which is really what won the game for Brat. It totally took by surprise and got him completely out of position. Remember how obvious it was that Brat couldn't leave his base with HuK sitting in position? What would happen if it weren't for a great timed drop? Well, probably something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeqj-MtwV4
Toss is clearly imba i mean he landed every single emp and still lost Nerf since i seen it in a Video once!
I mean the 4 immortal where clearly USELESS after the emp and stim!
Huk must be some Toss GOD to survive the Stim + ghost push there is no way a mere MORTAL could do such a thing...RIGHT GUYS?!
Taking a Break or a few hours to cool off before i try to contribute more so people get a chance to see the build getting walked over and i have a chance to cool down a bit.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
LOL, i know,earlier i was talking to a zerg who said to get Hellion (T2) vs zergling (T1). HOW AM I SOPPOSE TO HAVE HELLIONS BY THEN? Brat_OK pushes out with stim/shielded marines, sevril medivacs and ghosts. Its at post 10:00 mark usually. This is plenty of time to get a colossi out. As soon as herd day9 was doing a daily on brat_ok's "cool tvp strategy" I knew this thread would be exploding with replay examples (something it severely lacked before). Obviously day[9] isn't going to go "hey check out brat_ok's build" and show 3 replays of him getting owned. The main reason Brat won the first game vs HuK so easily, was obviously due to a failed DT rush. Everything that could have went wrong for HuK did, the barely enough scan right into fortunate (or "good guess") raven production, the wall off ect. Brat_ok was able to push at his build's strongest point right after HuK poured resources into DTs. HuK did what he could, but he was just hard countered. The second game, people fail to mention the drop, which is really what won the game for Brat. It totally took by surprise and got him completely out of position. Remember how obvious it was that Brat couldn't leave his base with HuK sitting in position? What would happen if it weren't for a great timed drop? Well, probably something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeqj-MtwV4
Toss is clearly imba i mean he landed every single emp and still lost Nerf since i seen it in a Video once!
I mean the 4 immortal where clearly USELESS after the emp and stim!
Huk must be some Toss GOD to survive the Stim + ghost push there is no way a mere MORTAL could do such a thing...RIGHT GUYS?!
Taking a Break or a few hours to cool off before i try to contribute more so people get a chance to see the build getting walked over and i have a chance to cool down a bit.
Hate to burst your bubble, but that was back in mid-May before the Immortal build-time nerf and various other changes, such as the cost reduction in Conc Shell, Shield and Stims. The Immortal build time was changed a week later.
On June 15 2010 02:51 metaldragon wrote: Toss is clearly imba i mean he landed every single emp and still lost Nerf since i seen it in a Video once!
I mean the 4 immortal where clearly USELESS after the emp and stim!
Huk must be some Toss GOD to survive the Stim + ghost push there is no way a mere MORTAL could do such a thing...RIGHT GUYS?!
Taking a Break or a few hours to cool off before i try to contribute more so people get a chance to see the build getting walked over and i have a chance to cool down a bit.
I was hoping you'd make good on your promise to stop posting (trolling) I'm not even going to entertain your post with a real response.
I don't quite understand why so many demand some sort of "direct" counter to EMP. It really doesn't make sense to me. So many unique race features/powers have no direct counters...it is just how they are. What is the "direct counter" to HT storm? EMP is just another damage spell.
What many people seem to forget over and over is that Toss has other things that it can do better than Terran to make up for the EMP damage. Toss can maintain map control and can get a big macro advantage in the mid-game w/ warpgates. They have observers to help them get the perfect army composition. I guess I have just won many battles where Terran used multiple EMPs...so I have a hard time accepting that we need some sort of "hard counter". Perfect compositions beat terran armies even with their EMPs and observers let us get that perfect composition...and warpgates let us get a unit advantage. We just need to abuse the strengths of the Protoss.
We aren't looking for a hard counter. We're looking for any solution at all. There are lots of solutions to psi storm, including EMP.
I am totally on board with TvP being a fairly balanced MU. No race is particularly OP vs the other. However, in order for P to win, P has to play at a level much higher than T. This gets annoying for anyone Diamond and below (and this is 99.999999% of all players). ZvT is the same way for Z from what I read (I have no direct experience since I'm only a P and T player).
On June 15 2010 02:49 whoopadeedoo wrote: Fungal Growth and Parasite both have shorter ranges than Ghosts' EMP OR snipe. One snipe = dead infestor. There are plenty of other T units that outrange infestors or can snipe them (e.g. two cloaked banshees make very quick work of them). Infestors are also T2.5 units. Are infestors effective and powerful against T? Sure. But at least T isn't resigned to always taking an infestor spell without a workable solution.
If you think getting ghosts TvZ is a workable solution, its quite obvious you havent played the match. Again with the age old assumption that I'm going get emp the energy on all his casters before they get spells off (you realise infestors move while burrowed right). Claiming ghosts will always hit SOME of the shielded units of the toss army is one thing (usally most the shield if multiple emps are dropped.), but assuming your going to get his casters - whether they are templars, infestors, or ravens- before he gets spells off on you, is to assume he is really bad. You would have to clump all your casters in a nice ball for him, or march them plan as day in front of your army (even then if 5 are spread out moving in, your not going to get them all.) Snipe has a shorter range than FG, and it would take at least (maybe 3...not sure) to take them out. In short, even if I do get a unit I - or most anyone else- absolutely wouldn't get, to counter infestors, he's still going to get parasites and FGs off on me. why? because he's suppose to. I'm not suppose to be able to get a few ghosts and counter all his spells indefinitely. EMP was always more of a spell for toss shields first, spells second. Which leads me to remind everyone that, just because feedback isn't a reliable way to counter EMP all the time, doesn't mean its not really good to hit ghost or medivac with whenever you get the chance (which will happen frequently in big long games.)
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
The solution is "everything protoss has going for them". The solution is warpgates, observers, superior army composition and map control. This isn't about "requiring more skill from Protoss". It is about not looking at EMP in a vacuum and realizing that it is JUST FINE. You can beat equally skilled Terran who use EMP.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Protoss has to "play at a much higher level than Terran" to win the game. It just isn't true. Keep money low, build warpgates, scout with an observer, make a perfect army composition and attack. I don't see what kind of ultra-impressive skills Protoss must possess to make this an even match. EMP is just a part of their army composition that they need to have a chance to compete. It isn't some magical spell that allows Terran with less skill to beat Protoss with more skill. It is needed because Protoss will be attacking with a bigger army with a superior composition.
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
So, let EMP hit me, then send in the HTs to Feedback.
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
So, let EMP hit me, then send in the HTs to Feedback.
Brilliant.
Storm dont feedback. And let me try to drill this in one last time: send in the army first send in your full energy templars spread out from the back i guarantee you, you will get storms off. Once he is stormed he has to move. Worse thing that could happen is you recharge all your shield. Best thing, and fails and dies.
On June 15 2010 02:49 whoopadeedoo wrote: Fungal Growth and Parasite both have shorter ranges than Ghosts' EMP OR snipe. One snipe = dead infestor. There are plenty of other T units that outrange infestors or can snipe them (e.g. two cloaked banshees make very quick work of them). Infestors are also T2.5 units. Are infestors effective and powerful against T? Sure. But at least T isn't resigned to always taking an infestor spell without a workable solution.
If you think getting ghosts TvZ is a workable solution, its quite obvious you havent played the match. Again with the age old assumption that I'm going get emp the energy on all his casters before they get spells off (you realise infestors move while burrowed right). Claiming ghosts will always hit SOME of the shielded units of the toss army is one thing (usally most the shield if multiple emps are dropped.), but assuming your going to get his casters - whether they are templars, infestors, or ravens- before he gets spells off on you, is to assume he is really bad. You would have to clump all your casters in a nice ball for him, or march them plan as day in front of your army (even then if 5 are spread out moving in, your not going to get them all.) Snipe has a shorter range than FG, and it would take at least (maybe 3...not sure) to take them out. In short, even if I do get a unit I - or most anyone else- absolutely wouldn't get, to counter infestors, he's still going to get parasites and FGs off on me. why? because he's suppose to. I'm not suppose to be able to get a few ghosts and counter all his spells indefinitely. EMP was always more of a spell for toss shields first, spells second. Which leads me to remind everyone that, just because feedback isn't a reliable way to counter EMP all the time, doesn't mean its not really good to hit ghost or medivac with whenever you get the chance (which will happen frequently in big long games.)
Sorry, I was thinking about seeker missle, not ghost snipe (which obviously is on my mind).
When I play TvZ, infestor spells do not always go off. I find infestors very powerful and difficult to deal with directly, but I do not have anywhere near the resigned attitude as my PvT MUs against EMP.
This whole rock-paper-scissor metagame annoys me, but that's for another discussion.
On June 15 2010 03:13 skipdog172 wrote: The solution is "everything protoss has going for them". The solution is warpgates, observers, superior army composition and map control. This isn't about "requiring more skill from Protoss". It is about not looking at EMP in a vacuum and realizing that it is JUST FINE. You can beat equally skilled Terran who use EMP.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Protoss has to "play at a much higher level than Terran" to win the game. It just isn't true. Keep money low, build warpgates, scout with an observer, make a perfect army composition and attack. I don't see what kind of ultra-impressive skills Protoss must possess to make this an even match. EMP is just a part of their army composition that they need to have a chance to compete. It isn't some magical spell that allows Terran with less skill to beat Protoss with more skill. It is needed because Protoss will be attacking with a bigger army with a superior composition.
Do you play random or play both sides? Terran (for me, at least) is much easier to play and win with than Protoss (in Diamond league). Other random players (from NA, Euro and Korea) have said the same thing, so I know it's not just me.
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
So, let EMP hit me, then send in the HTs to Feedback.
Brilliant.
Storm dont feedback. And let me try to drill this in one last time: send in the army first send in your full energy templars spread out from the back i guarantee you, you will get storms off. Once he is stormed he has to move. Worse thing that could happen is you recharge all your shield. Best thing, and fails and dies.
You don't see anything wrong with having to get someone to blow their load from all of their support units first, before you can engage and have a POTENTIALLY even fight that now depends on the Protoss' placement of Psi Storm and the Terran's ability to micro out of it? Do you have to get a Zerg to blow all of his energy on Fungal Growths and Parasites before you engage? Do you wait for the Mothership to Vortex first, or do you just blow the fucker out of the sky?
And what stops the Terran just saving some EMP energy for the HTs? What can I do to guarantee he blows all of his energy on EMPing the rest of my blob? Do I just leave the HTs sitting at the back, engage his army with shield-less units, until I get my Collossi/Stalkers to snipe the Ghosts out, THEN send in the HTs? Talk about suicide.
On June 15 2010 02:59 skipdog172 wrote: I don't quite understand why so many demand some sort of "direct" counter to EMP. It really doesn't make sense to me. So many unique race features/powers have no direct counters...it is just how they are. What is the "direct counter" to HT storm? EMP is just another damage spell.
What many people seem to forget over and over is that Toss has other things that it can do better than Terran to make up for the EMP damage. Toss can maintain map control and can get a big macro advantage in the mid-game w/ warpgates. They have observers to help them get the perfect army composition. I guess I have just won many battles where Terran used multiple EMPs...so I have a hard time accepting that we need some sort of "hard counter". Perfect compositions beat terran armies even with their EMPs and observers let us get that perfect composition...and warpgates let us get a unit advantage. We just need to abuse the strengths of the Protoss.
Insightful first post
On June 15 2010 03:13 skipdog172 wrote: The solution is "everything protoss has going for them". The solution is warpgates, observers, superior army composition and map control. This isn't about "requiring more skill from Protoss". It is about not looking at EMP in a vacuum and realizing that it is JUST FINE. You can beat equally skilled Terran who use EMP.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Protoss has to "play at a much higher level than Terran" to win the game. It just isn't true. Keep money low, build warpgates, scout with an observer, make a perfect army composition and attack. I don't see what kind of ultra-impressive skills Protoss must possess to make this an even match. EMP is just a part of their army composition that they need to have a chance to compete. It isn't some magical spell that allows Terran with less skill to beat Protoss with more skill. It is needed because Protoss will be attacking with a bigger army with a superior composition.
These people have never played a game or MU where one side truly has to play at a higher level. I advise everyone in this thread who is new to Starcraft go buy a nice bottle of lubricant, log onto to iccup, race terran, and put "D/D+ protoss come." Play 20 games then come back to this thread. I promise you that you will find that your "emp means the protoss has to play at a much higher level" arguments are at the very least silly, at the very worst humiliating statements you hope get buried in the TL forum graveyard never again to see the light of day.
You guys may have missed the nerf emp someone started last night that got insta-closed saying we should nerf emp and one of his suggestions was to move it to a fusion core. Lol!! That is precisely the problem with threads like these. He probably spent all day reading this thread getting pumped about how OP and imba EMP is without knowing what he was talking about.
I'm going to end this post with some quality idra quotes:
On June 14 2010 14:26 SonKiE wrote: all these threads are made by protoss players who think they should win by pushing as soon as their first immortal is out, or by 3 gate rushing lol
they should. broken game if you don't win that way obviously.
obv itd be like if 6 goons and a shuttle of zealots didnt end the game immediately.
IdrA you know casual players can't balance the game or even test it correctly. I include myself in the casual group along with most diamond league players or anyone who doesn't play competitively in tournaments, leagues etc.
then casual players should recognize their shortcomings and shut up and listen to the people who know what theyre talking about instead of filling threads like this with bullshit.
Yeah, because BW's EMP on the equivalent of the Raven, to SC2's T1.5 Ghost is totally the same thing. Doesn't affect the time frame of EMP strength and allows it to be used in strong timing pushes, at all. Oh, and the instant-cast, non-projectile nature makes no difference to the ease of use compared to BWs sluggish version that requires the Science Vessel to decelerate before firing. No sir.
On June 15 2010 03:26 whoopadeedoo wrote:Do you play random or play both sides? Terran (for me, at least) is much easier to play and win with than Protoss (in Diamond league). Other random players (from NA, Euro and Korea) have said the same thing, so I know it's not just me.
Both sides.
So even though we know that Protoss actually beats Terran more, we are declaring that Terran is "easier to play and win with" than Protoss?
So basically you believe that overall, Protoss players are more skillful than Terran players, right?? That must be the case if Protoss actually wins more yet is somehow at a disadvantage...
But yeah, clearly because "other random players" agree with you, you can't be wrong!!!!
[QUOTE]On June 15 2010 03:46 skipdog172 wrote: [QUOTE]On June 15 2010 03:26 whoopadeedoo wrote: [QUOTE]Do you play random or play both sides? Terran (for me, at least) is much easier to play and win with than Protoss (in Diamond league). Other random players (from NA, Euro and Korea) have said the same thing, so I know it's not just me.[/QUOTE]
Both sides.
So even though we know that Protoss actually beats Terran more, we are declaring that Terran is "easier to play and win with" than Protoss?
So basically you believe that overall, Protoss players are more skillful than Terran players, right?? That must be the case if Protoss actually wins more yet is somehow at a disadvantage...
But yeah, clearly because "other random players" agree with you, you can't be wrong!!!! [/QUOTE]
where r u getting this stat saying toss beats terran more?
are we talking recent patch with 3102841 terran buff n 12213 toss nerf?
On June 15 2010 03:26 whoopadeedoo wrote:Do you play random or play both sides? Terran (for me, at least) is much easier to play and win with than Protoss (in Diamond league). Other random players (from NA, Euro and Korea) have said the same thing, so I know it's not just me.
Both sides.
So even though we know that Protoss actually beats Terran more, we are declaring that Terran is "easier to play and win with" than Protoss?
So basically you believe that overall, Protoss players are more skillful than Terran players, right?? That must be the case if Protoss actually wins more yet is somehow at a disadvantage...
But yeah, clearly because "other random players" agree with you, you can't be wrong!!!!
Again, you're citing pro stats/opinions as if it applied to 99.99999999999% of the playing community. If everyone could APM 300 and practiced this game as a profession, this would not be an issue. Stop the "appealing to authority" logical fallacies.
I didn't say I couldn't be wrong (can an opinion even be wrong?). I just know I'm not alone in my opinion. Read what I wrote, not what you want to believe I wrote.
On June 15 2010 03:13 skipdog172 wrote: The solution is "everything protoss has going for them". The solution is warpgates, observers, superior army composition and map control. This isn't about "requiring more skill from Protoss". It is about not looking at EMP in a vacuum and realizing that it is JUST FINE. You can beat equally skilled Terran who use EMP.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Protoss has to "play at a much higher level than Terran" to win the game. It just isn't true. Keep money low, build warpgates, scout with an observer, make a perfect army composition and attack. I don't see what kind of ultra-impressive skills Protoss must possess to make this an even match. EMP is just a part of their army composition that they need to have a chance to compete. It isn't some magical spell that allows Terran with less skill to beat Protoss with more skill. It is needed because Protoss will be attacking with a bigger army with a superior composition.
I don't think you've played Protoss before. The "SUPER AWESOME SCOUTING ADVANTAGE (TM)" of Observers is nothing short of a necessary survival tactic. Protoss is without a doubt in my mind the hardest race to consistently win with when you start out in the game because they're so dependent on scouting (and noobs don't scout). Every individual unit is a big investment and you NEED that scouting advantage just to be able to REACT to your opponent's composition. If you have a slightly wrong composition at a slightly wrong time, you're going to get stomped.
With hundreds of Protoss games under my belt this Beta, the feeling I get from this early Ghost stuff, is my only managable solution (note: not the same as counter) to it comes very slowly, requiring me to invest heavily in tech, or metric fucktons of Zealots, neither of which lets me expand with impunity, like all these Terran players seem to be suggesting we should do. This gives the Terran a very wide opening to either expand well in advance of me, or just push and win the game right there if I even consider trying anything else.
A lot of Terrans don't make early Ghosts and that changes the dynamic. Some Terrans make early Ghosts, sit around for ages, giving me lots of time to get HTs to 'counter' them and the match feels even. But, this very small subset of Terrans (like Brat_OK) get early Ghosts and Marines, push when Stims is ready and just rape you in the godamn face before you had a hope in hell of doing anything about it.
Hopefully more Terrans actually pick up on the strength of this build, so Blizzard can easily spot it and get the thing changed. Right now its the equivalent of the Immortal timing push of yestermonth, only hardly anyone knows about it. Its not impossible to beat, but its consistently kicked my ass over the last three months.
And I don't think the 'skill difference' with my opponent is a factor. The matchmaking system is pretty good. I wouldn't be in the Diamond bracket playing Artosis one minute, then Scrubby McNoob the next. And if I were just playing someone who went 5-0 in placements against noobs, I wouldn't be complaining about the strength of Ghosts. I'd be kicking myself in the butt for losing to a guy who beat me with a Marauder rush and 20 APM.
Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
also wat patch was this for. i dont pay attention to these chats. since it doesnt even include diamond, ima say this is from a while ago
like someone also stated bef, the matching system is designed to give players a 50-50 shot so we dont know wat other factors blizz included in this.
Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
Re: #BlizzChat Developer Chat on Twitter 4/30 05/01/2010 12:30:23 AM GMT+00:00
Why didn't you mention those statistics were taken before 30th of April - date of the interview -, which means until Patch 10? After that protoss kept receiving nerfs and terran buffs. Which actually makes the argument useful aggainst your point.
Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
Over two MONTHS ago? Oh come the F on. How much has changed since then. This isn't a Live game where patches only happen every 3 months. A bunch of changes have been made since then, most obvious of which that help Terrans were the Immortal build time nerf, the Void Ray range nerf and the cost of bio upgrades getting greatly reduced.
Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
dude. gtfo. every time i see people quoting this FAQ just makes me so annoyed/pissed off. THESE STATS WERE FROM AROUND PATCH 10.
We have had NO stats released to us AFTER all the meaningful PvT nerfs (read: Immo time build nerf, void ray range nerf) and all the Terran Bio buffs (read: conc shell un-nerf, stim+health buff). Please STOP quoting and using completely irrelevant statistics that barely meant anything in the first place.
People who are citing tournaments are almost equally stupid. You can't just cite total tourney wins for specific races. You should be citing tourney top 4 or top 2. Why? Because tournaments include a third and fourth race, Zerg and Random, which skews the results such that you absolutely cannot establish Protoss v. Terran dominance because those two are not the only races being played! (Ex. Because every single Terran is being knocked out in round 1 or 2 by Zerg players so that the only players who remain are Protoss and Zerg does NOT mean Terran is weak against Protoss.) Take elementary statistics before trying to use statistics to support your arguments.
Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
also wat patch was this for. i dont pay attention to these chats. since it doesnt even include diamond, ima say this is from a while ago
like someone also stated bef, the matching system is designed to give players a 50-50 shot so we dont know wat other factors blizz included in this.
No. The matchmaking system emphasizes speed over fairness. It's actually quite bad at finding opponents close to your MMR (if your MMR is very high). It even pits arranged partner teams against random partner teams.
Q: Last Dev Chat, Terran was behind in all 1v1 and 2v2 matchups. How do the racial matchup numbers look now? Any outlier matchups? A: We have several tools to measure race balance. The simplest is the win loss by race, factored by leagues. In Platinum and Gold leagues the numbers look like this.
Terrans vs. Protoss 46% - 54% Protoss vs. Zerg 51% - 49% Terrans vs. Zerg 51% - 49%
I do not have the more interesting numbers that factor for player skill. The last time I saw these numbers Zerg were ahead of Protoss, Protoss were ahead of Terrans and Terrans and Zerg were fairly even.
Obviously there is a lot more work to be done and more beta time in front of us but we are very pleased with the current numbers.
also wat patch was this for. i dont pay attention to these chats. since it doesnt even include diamond, ima say this is from a while ago
like someone also stated bef, the matching system is designed to give players a 50-50 shot so we dont know wat other factors blizz included in this.
No. The matchmaking system emphasizes speed over fairness. It's actually quite bad at finding opponents close to your MMR (if your MMR is very high). It even pits arranged partner teams against random partner teams.
maybe im wrong about the matching system, i just remember it from somewhere on the blizz forum.
so even without all the terran buff n toss nerf it was only a 4% diff from 50-50?
A 4% difference is pretty significant, since it means Protoss are winning over 17% more often than Terran (54/46 = 1.174), but citing those particular numbers themselves in this argument is completely pointless, because they're TWO MONTHS old, before many changes were made to the PvT matchup involving raw unit strength (e.g. Void Ray and Hellion range) and timings (Immortal construction and Terran tech upgrades).
Thanks Bibdy for finally bringing up the specific timing push that seems to really solidify your beliefs in EMP being too good. It must not be very common and I don't have much experience against it. Sounds to me like that exact timing push is what should be focused on instead of all of this arguing about outdated statistics. So much of this thread if screaming about EMP itself when it sounds like that timing push is what we should be analyzing. Is it really unbeatable by Protoss? You would think a timing push so simple, early and effective would see a lot more widespread use. Anybody have some replays??
day[9] #135 is pretty filled with the replays.. My favorite part was Huk getting roflstomped even after having splitted his army up, doing a zeal flank and even manages to get a couple of FF off.
On June 15 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote: A 4% difference is pretty significant, since it means Protoss are winning over 17% more often than Terran (54/46 = 1.174), but citing those particular numbers themselves in this argument is completely pointless, because they're TWO MONTHS old, before many changes were made to the PvT matchup involving raw unit strength (e.g. Void Ray and Hellion range) and timings (Immortal construction and Terran tech upgrades).
how that % even makes sense is beyond me
all it means is that in 100 matches terran win 46 time n toss 54 time. since those number r directly proportional its basically a diff of 4 matches
but we arent here to talk about stats so ya....
if u guys wanna say its a timing push issue then the clear solution would be making emp a research?
I think its scarce because people wait for other people to do it. Phoenix openings were considered suicide around here until Nony proved otherwise and Day9 casted it. Same with this Marine/Ghost thing. I think the moment that the Beta comes back up, a lot of Terrans (at least on this site) are going to pick up this build and its going to get its day in the sun.
Unbeatable or not, always depends on the skill of the people involved. In generally its %*@#ing hard to come up with the right tech and unit composition, on the fly, when you spot this build. I compared the gas costs to both compositions a couple of pages back.
Okay, so let's do a bit of analysis that compares both sides by relative gas income. I think its safe to assume that both sides will be getting 2 gas fairly early and that neither side is going to get a significantly larger income than the other before the first push comes.
Terran Units: 1 Reaper, 2 Ghosts, 2 Medivacs = 550 gas Tech: Stims, Shield = 300 gas Buildings: Tech Lab, Reactor, Factory, Starport, Ghost Academy = 325 gas
Protoss Buildings: Twilight Council, Templar Archives = 300 gas Tech: Warp Gate, Psi Storm = 250 gas Units: 2 HTs = 300 gas
So that's 325 gas you can spare on things like Stalkers and Sentries to keep the Marine ball at bay. That's just one Sentry and four Stalkers. That's a pitiful amount of gas spent to keep back the kind of Marine ball the Terran can build as time progresses. He'll just scout that, laugh and charge forward with the Marine ball while you're busy teching up to the HT 'counter' to the Ghost/Marine ball.
It basically means you have to spend a metric fuckton of minerals on Zealots as cannon-fodder. You can't afford Zealot speed, either, unless you pick it over Psi Storm. And Zealots just get ripped to shreds by an equal cost in Marines as the blobs get bigger. 1 Zealot beats 2 Marines, but 14 Marines (particularly with Stim and/or Shield, which you ARE getting) can rape 7 Zealots.
Can't get down to specifics, but that 'spare gas' differential leading up to the moment when the Terran feels comfortable moving out, doesn't feel comfortable from the Protoss perspective, at all.
I realize now that I completely forgot about scouting it. A Robo Fac and Observer is another 200 gas the Protoss needs to spend (or Hallucination for 100, but I really don't feel safe in PvT with 1-shot scouting methods over constant monitoring) just to be able to SPOT the build, let alone react to it.
So, that leaves the Protoss with 125 spare gas, a SINGLE Sentry in order to compete with the Terran's composition. The timing window there is astronomically frightening.
Best you can do is just get the HTs for Feedback, and worry about Psi Storm later, netting you 200 gas for some Stalkers.
So, what alternatives are there? Speedlots with an armour upgrade was one idea I picked up from Day9's cast of the thing. That sounds plausible to BUILD it. Whether it directly counters the Stimmed Marine+EMP blob will require some testing when Beta comes back.
On June 15 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote: A 4% difference is pretty significant, since it means Protoss are winning over 17% more often than Terran (54/46 = 1.174), but citing those particular numbers themselves in this argument is completely pointless, because they're TWO MONTHS old, before many changes were made to the PvT matchup involving raw unit strength (e.g. Void Ray and Hellion range) and timings (Immortal construction and Terran tech upgrades).
how that % even makes sense is beyond me
all it means is that in 100 matches terran win 46 time n toss 54 time. since those number r directly proportional its basically a diff of 4 matches
but we arent here to talk about stats so ya....
if u guys wanna say its a timing push issue then the clear solution would be making emp a research?
Its pretty basic math. If the Terran won 46 of them, and the Protoss won 54 of them, the Protoss won 17% more.
54/46 = 1.17
Or, another way, the number 54 is 17% larger than the number 46.
On June 15 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote: A 4% difference is pretty significant, since it means Protoss are winning over 17% more often than Terran (54/46 = 1.174), but citing those particular numbers themselves in this argument is completely pointless, because they're TWO MONTHS old, before many changes were made to the PvT matchup involving raw unit strength (e.g. Void Ray and Hellion range) and timings (Immortal construction and Terran tech upgrades).
how that % even makes sense is beyond me
all it means is that in 100 matches terran win 46 time n toss 54 time. since those number r directly proportional its basically a diff of 4 matches
but we arent here to talk about stats so ya....
if u guys wanna say its a timing push issue then the clear solution would be making emp a research?
Its pretty basic math. If the Terran won 46 of them, and the Protoss won 54 of them, the Protoss won 17% more.
54/46 = 1.17
Or, another way, the number 54 is 17% larger than the number 46.
On June 15 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote: A 4% difference is pretty significant, since it means Protoss are winning over 17% more often than Terran (54/46 = 1.174), but citing those particular numbers themselves in this argument is completely pointless, because they're TWO MONTHS old, before many changes were made to the PvT matchup involving raw unit strength (e.g. Void Ray and Hellion range) and timings (Immortal construction and Terran tech upgrades).
how that % even makes sense is beyond me
all it means is that in 100 matches terran win 46 time n toss 54 time. since those number r directly proportional its basically a diff of 4 matches
but we arent here to talk about stats so ya....
if u guys wanna say its a timing push issue then the clear solution would be making emp a research?
Its pretty basic math. If the Terran won 46 of them, and the Protoss won 54 of them, the Protoss won 17% more.
54/46 = 1.17
Or, another way, the number 54 is 17% larger than the number 46.
Your numbers count for nothing because THIS IS SPARTA (oh wait nvm - actually it's because they are from before patch 10).
On June 15 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote: A 4% difference is pretty significant, since it means Protoss are winning over 17% more often than Terran (54/46 = 1.174), but citing those particular numbers themselves in this argument is completely pointless, because they're TWO MONTHS old, before many changes were made to the PvT matchup involving raw unit strength (e.g. Void Ray and Hellion range) and timings (Immortal construction and Terran tech upgrades).
how that % even makes sense is beyond me
all it means is that in 100 matches terran win 46 time n toss 54 time. since those number r directly proportional its basically a diff of 4 matches
but we arent here to talk about stats so ya....
if u guys wanna say its a timing push issue then the clear solution would be making emp a research?
Its pretty basic math. If the Terran won 46 of them, and the Protoss won 54 of them, the Protoss won 17% more.
54/46 = 1.17
Or, another way, the number 54 is 17% larger than the number 46.
w/e floats ur boat........
Its not just floating my boat. Its a better representation of the same info. Saying 46:54 is a trick to hide the magnitude of the difference.
After an election, people tend to say things like "Candidate A only won with 60% of the vote. Clearly the people don't adore him THAT much! There's only a 10% swing!", even though they actually won with 1.5x (50% more) votes as the other guy.
On June 15 2010 05:34 Bibdy wrote: A 4% difference is pretty significant, since it means Protoss are winning over 17% more often than Terran (54/46 = 1.174), but citing those particular numbers themselves in this argument is completely pointless, because they're TWO MONTHS old, before many changes were made to the PvT matchup involving raw unit strength (e.g. Void Ray and Hellion range) and timings (Immortal construction and Terran tech upgrades).
how that % even makes sense is beyond me
all it means is that in 100 matches terran win 46 time n toss 54 time. since those number r directly proportional its basically a diff of 4 matches
but we arent here to talk about stats so ya....
if u guys wanna say its a timing push issue then the clear solution would be making emp a research?
Its pretty basic math. If the Terran won 46 of them, and the Protoss won 54 of them, the Protoss won 17% more.
54/46 = 1.17
Or, another way, the number 54 is 17% larger than the number 46.
Your numbers count for nothing because THIS IS SPARTA (oh wait nvm - actually it's because they are from before patch 10).
Yes, we've already been over that. He just wanted to argue semantics over the math.
People stop talking about statistic as it means nothing about game balance just ask any academic guy there is too much things involved in like how many people play each race skill of these people etc. it's impossible to judge out of pure statistic especially when you look on brozne silver and gold leagues where people are lack of skill and decent player can win with fast void ray or cheese zealots.
Back to EMP it's pure imba whatever you like to hear with current mechanic and Terran it's simple overpowered. Good terran can make protoss life totally miserable using EMP on sentrys ht or immortals and then pick them up with stimmed mmbaal. You can't simply counter this unless you willing to dance all time and move back splitting ur army and spreading which requires uber skilling compared to terran one click stimpack emp and attack. Terran will always have more time to focus on battle which grants huge advantage just because EMP can be powerfull in many ways.
And moreover missing with EMP don't mean that terran lose but hitting whole protoss army with few EMP's lower they resistance potentilal by 40-50% i don't understand how people can say it's balanced.
Back from sc1 emp is far more powerfull in sc2 with current mechanics.
On June 15 2010 06:55 link0 wrote: I cannot understand your poor English
I can't understand the premise behind his poor english either. It sounds like he is saying EMP is imbalanced and there is nothing we can do to prove otherwise despite 17 pages of people agreeing it is balanced and only a minor tweak needs to be made so it can be mitigated more easily to even the skill gap.
Which personally, I disagree with since it took far more skill to micro medic-marine around some lurkers then it did to burrow them but nobody really complained about that.
On June 15 2010 06:55 link0 wrote: I cannot understand your poor English
I can't understand the premise behind his poor english either. It sounds like he is saying EMP is imbalanced and there is nothing we can do to prove otherwise despite 17 pages of people agreeing it is balanced and only a minor tweak needs to be made so it can be mitigated more easily to even the skill gap.
Which personally, I disagree with since it took far more skill to micro medic-marine around some lurkers then it did to burrow them but nobody really complained about that.
lurkers shoot in a straight line like hellion. u trying to say hellion is hard to micro against? of course assuming detection isnt a problem
unlike ghost when u scout lurkers, they r fairly easy to play against
On June 15 2010 06:55 link0 wrote: I cannot understand your poor English
I can't understand the premise behind his poor english either. It sounds like he is saying EMP is imbalanced and there is nothing we can do to prove otherwise despite 17 pages of people agreeing it is balanced and only a minor tweak needs to be made so it can be mitigated more easily to even the skill gap.
Which personally, I disagree with since it took far more skill to micro medic-marine around some lurkers then it did to burrow them but nobody really complained about that.
You actually benefitted from microing those MnMs - the point is, you don't really benefit from microing against EMP and that is why I advocate making it a projectile; so you actually benefit from microing against it.
On June 15 2010 06:55 link0 wrote: I cannot understand your poor English
I can't understand the premise behind his poor english either. It sounds like he is saying EMP is imbalanced and there is nothing we can do to prove otherwise despite 17 pages of people agreeing it is balanced and only a minor tweak needs to be made so it can be mitigated more easily to even the skill gap.
Which personally, I disagree with since it took far more skill to micro medic-marine around some lurkers then it did to burrow them but nobody really complained about that.
Well its not like the Lurkers are going to pop out and reassemble into a better position mid-fight. Its all on YOU to work around the Lurkers. With EMP, what is there to work around? Take proverbial kick in the nuts and squirm.
On June 15 2010 05:39 skipdog172 wrote: Thanks Bibdy for finally bringing up the specific timing push that seems to really solidify your beliefs in EMP being too good. It must not be very common and I don't have much experience against it. Sounds to me like that exact timing push is what should be focused on instead of all of this arguing about outdated statistics. So much of this thread if screaming about EMP itself when it sounds like that timing push is what we should be analyzing. Is it really unbeatable by Protoss? You would think a timing push so simple, early and effective would see a lot more widespread use. Anybody have some replays??
Yeah seriously. It's as if no terran players have experimented with early ghost timing attacks in the beta. Lol!! Try a forum search for "emp."
Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
On June 15 2010 05:51 Ghostcom wrote: day[9] #135 is pretty filled with the replays.. My favorite part was Huk getting roflstomped even after having splitted his army up, doing a zeal flank and even manages to get a couple of FF off.
Yeah, the third game in the set (HuK vs BratOK #1) shows just how brutal EMP can be. The biggest lesson to take from it is that, as when fighting hydras, protoss simply can't afford to sit on pure gateway units for too long. At some point, toss has to jump to his tier 3 AoE units: colossi or templar.
On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote: Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
hence y things like stats n replays dont mean shit
there is simply too many other factors and/or bias involved
u should try not to contradict urself....going back n forth on whether stats is relevant is not too good for ur argument. double standards r nvr good
ps. if its so radical on korean server that would mean somewhere else terran is winning a lot more if its truely around 50-50. maybe koreans have some strat that isnt prevalent in other servers yet. maybe ppl just havent started to abuse it.
I feel like EMP currently is overpowered and can be helped out by 1 simple buff. the range of feeback. The range of feedback should be increased. Once this happens. There will be one timing where the terran has ghosts but protoss dosent have templar. Thats it. Timing pushes IMO cant really by OP if they ONLY work in a certain timing.
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable
On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote: Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
hence y things like stats n replays dont mean shit
Clearly anything but your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion.
there is simply too many other factors and/or bias involved
Then we're all too stupid to analyze the multiplicity of factors, available data (replays, high level player opinions, statistics) and to see through our own bias that there is no hope for anyone to rationally balance the game .
u should try not to contradict urself....going back n forth on whether stats is relevant is not too good for ur argument. double standards r nvr good
You should try to communicate in english that reflects higher standards than text messaging between teenagers. Posters on TL whose second or third language is english write better posts than you. It is actually kind of insulting to the people in this thread that have taken the time to write thoughtful posts.
ps. if its so radical on korean server that would mean somewhere else terran is winning a lot more if its truely around 50-50. maybe koreans have some strat that isnt prevalent in other servers yet. maybe ppl just havent started to abuse it.
I doubt there is some secret terran build that isn't being abused on other servers; if anything the general quality of player on the Asia server is much higher than on the U.S. or Euro servers. EMP exists to mitigate other factors previously mentioned in this thread. My advice is that if you're having trouble dealing with EMP go to sc2win, the replays thread, or gosugamers and download all the recent PvT you can find. Find out why other protoss players are winning in the MU and by extension why you are losing. I could list points previously brought up but I think watching a lot of replays will be more instructive for protoss players than reading my posts or recycling a debate amongst posters who have really dug their heels in over this.
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable
This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers keeping track of the terran army position. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable
This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers keeping track of the terran army position. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).
1) just like dodging an EMP in sc:bw made SV totally redundant in high level TvP right? Making EMP a projectile would increase the skill cap on both sides if anything, not dumb it down and ghosts would still be very strong. 2)I think you are overestimating the attention observers get from the protoss player and how fast observers actually move.
On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote: Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
hence y things like stats n replays dont mean shit
Clearly anything but your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion.
there is simply too many other factors and/or bias involved
Then we're all too stupid to analyze the multiplicity of factors, available data (replays, high level player opinions, statistics) and to see through our own bias that there is no hope for anyone to rationally balance the game .
u should try not to contradict urself....going back n forth on whether stats is relevant is not too good for ur argument. double standards r nvr good
You should try to communicate in english that reflects higher standards than text messaging between teenagers. Posters on TL whose second or third language is english write better posts than you. It is actually kind of insulting to the people in this thread that have taken the time to write thoughtful posts.
ps. if its so radical on korean server that would mean somewhere else terran is winning a lot more if its truely around 50-50. maybe koreans have some strat that isnt prevalent in other servers yet. maybe ppl just havent started to abuse it.
I doubt there is some secret terran build that isn't being abused on other servers; if anything the general quality of player on the Asia server is much higher than on the U.S. or Euro servers. EMP exists to mitigate other factors previously mentioned in this thread. My advice is that if you're having trouble dealing with EMP go to sc2win, the replays thread, or gosugamers and download all the recent PvT you can find. Find out why other protoss players are winning in the MU and by extension why you are losing. I could list points previously brought up but I think watching a lot of replays will be more instructive for protoss players than reading my posts or recycling a debate amongst posters who have really dug their heels in over this.
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable
This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers keeping track of the terran army position. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).
u must be so smart to say "lol noob go watch replays"
also ur psychic powers r failing u since my 1st language isnt english. nt though buddy
maybe u should read the conversation about stats/replay here bef u start spewing anymore shit
if u cant comprehend the fact that he is contradicting himself regarding the validity of stats then my "teenage texting" is even better than ur perfect english
once again another terran that just ignores the issue of emp n point to toss having "better scouting"
On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote: Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
hence y things like stats n replays dont mean shit
Clearly anything but your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion.
there is simply too many other factors and/or bias involved
Then we're all too stupid to analyze the multiplicity of factors, available data (replays, high level player opinions, statistics) and to see through our own bias that there is no hope for anyone to rationally balance the game .
u should try not to contradict urself....going back n forth on whether stats is relevant is not too good for ur argument. double standards r nvr good
You should try to communicate in english that reflects higher standards than text messaging between teenagers. Posters on TL whose second or third language is english write better posts than you. It is actually kind of insulting to the people in this thread that have taken the time to write thoughtful posts.
ps. if its so radical on korean server that would mean somewhere else terran is winning a lot more if its truely around 50-50. maybe koreans have some strat that isnt prevalent in other servers yet. maybe ppl just havent started to abuse it.
I doubt there is some secret terran build that isn't being abused on other servers; if anything the general quality of player on the Asia server is much higher than on the U.S. or Euro servers. EMP exists to mitigate other factors previously mentioned in this thread. My advice is that if you're having trouble dealing with EMP go to sc2win, the replays thread, or gosugamers and download all the recent PvT you can find. Find out why other protoss players are winning in the MU and by extension why you are losing. I could list points previously brought up but I think watching a lot of replays will be more instructive for protoss players than reading my posts or recycling a debate amongst posters who have really dug their heels in over this.
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable
This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).
Thats where the attention to detail comes in. You need to make the skill so that it takes skill to use and even more skill to dodge. What I would propose in order to achieve this would be making it like the engineers 'grenade skill' from HON. You click the ground where you want it cast and in a one second travel time it goes of in a certain AoE. It adds an extra level of skill on both ends defensively and offensively, pro players on offense however would still have a significant edge just like in HON.. But to me it just adds that extra level of microing skill to the game. Adding these 'skills that take skill to use' on caster units would definitely help bring a dynamic element to the competitive scene and make replays more fun to watch.
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable
This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers keeping track of the terran army position. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).
1) just like dodging an EMP in sc:bw made SV totally redundant in high level TvP right? Making EMP a projectile would increase the skill cap on both sides if anything, not dumb it down and ghosts would still be very strong. 2)I think you are overestimating the attention observers get from the protoss player and how fast observers actually move.
/agree
It just makes the game more challenging for both players as well as enjoyable
On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote: Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
hence y things like stats n replays dont mean shit
Clearly anything but your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion.
there is simply too many other factors and/or bias involved
Then we're all too stupid to analyze the multiplicity of factors, available data (replays, high level player opinions, statistics) and to see through our own bias that there is no hope for anyone to rationally balance the game .
u should try not to contradict urself....going back n forth on whether stats is relevant is not too good for ur argument. double standards r nvr good
You should try to communicate in english that reflects higher standards than text messaging between teenagers. Posters on TL whose second or third language is english write better posts than you. It is actually kind of insulting to the people in this thread that have taken the time to write thoughtful posts.
ps. if its so radical on korean server that would mean somewhere else terran is winning a lot more if its truely around 50-50. maybe koreans have some strat that isnt prevalent in other servers yet. maybe ppl just havent started to abuse it.
I doubt there is some secret terran build that isn't being abused on other servers; if anything the general quality of player on the Asia server is much higher than on the U.S. or Euro servers. EMP exists to mitigate other factors previously mentioned in this thread. My advice is that if you're having trouble dealing with EMP go to sc2win, the replays thread, or gosugamers and download all the recent PvT you can find. Find out why other protoss players are winning in the MU and by extension why you are losing. I could list points previously brought up but I think watching a lot of replays will be more instructive for protoss players than reading my posts or recycling a debate amongst posters who have really dug their heels in over this.
On June 15 2010 15:21 Easy772 wrote:
On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote: Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).
Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.
I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.
I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable
This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers keeping track of the terran army position. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).
u must be so smart to say "lol noob go watch replays"
also ur psychic powers r failing u since my 1st language isnt english. nt though buddy
maybe u should read the conversation about stats/replay here bef u start spewing anymore shit
if u cant comprehend the fact that he is contradicting himself regarding the validity of stats then my "teenage texting" is even better than ur perfect english
once again another terran that just ignores the issue of emp n point to toss having "better scouting"
I didn't call anyone a newb Regardless of whether he is contradicting himself your point is still pretty bad: "replays and statistics aren't shit." I think it pretty much speaks for itself and you completely dodged my argument.
I'm not psychic, and if you read my most you'll notice I never assumed english was your first language. I merely pointed out other posters whose second or third language is english don't post in broken text message jibberish. The fact that you appear capable of writing in decent english speaks volumes about the attention you're giving your posting and what you think of this thread and the other people who have participated in it. You should read the TL Commandments
I can't help but feel you're attempting to purposefully cloud the discussion given that your last statement again dodges my argument. I hope a mod emps this thread.
And I hope a mod doesn't because we are plenty of people who actually support it with proper argumentation, so if anything I hope a mod would EMP the 2 of you who are moving further and further OT...
psh i got flame baited. im sry that i dont try to type in proper english on the internet. since u can understand wat im trying to say thats more than enough. im not here to argue with grammar nazis
either way this thread has pretty much come to an end. toss basically saying there is no decent work around for emp. terran saying micro better. hell someone even compared ghost emp to lurkers lol. its reached the stage where ppl just throw shit out there n hope it doesnt get shut down
when blizz modifies emp in the future there is gunna be a lot of terran crying
oh space y dont u provide a decent solution to emp since u think its balanced
I agree with everyone here. I feel the ghosts is seriously way too expensive. I mean common, everyone knows how underpowered EMP's are... I suggest one simple fix to this. Make the ghosts defacto invisible, like the dark templars. That way ghosts can be used as scout and hit an early EMP. Otherwise, the EMP is completely underpowered. It's way to vulnuerable to the imbastorms. It's damage is hilarious, I mean 80 dmg in 4 seconds. OR 20 dmg and 3 seconds of the units not being able to attack, because they have to move away. That's ridiculous. Storms are way too imbalanced. Since I say that I am a mid level diamond player, you should believe it and respect my incredibly unbiased opinion.
-.-' Unless you played as the other race, you have no say in imba conversations. PERIOD
On June 15 2010 16:09 Ghostcom wrote: And I hope a mod doesn't because we are plenty of people who actually support it with proper argumentation, so if anything I hope a mod would EMP the 2 of you who are moving further and further OT...
That's not fair . He completely dodged* my arguments and I was quoting his response to someone else when I initially responded to him. This thread isn't off topic b/c of my posting. The fact that this thread is still open speaks volumes to about the mods tolerance and respect for free speech.
I think the thread should be closed b/c the last few pages of posting make it really apparent the discussion has reached a dead end and this thread won't go quietly into the TL forum graveyard without a helping hand. Regardless I'll remove myself from further posting in this thread in the hopes of realizing it's eventual demise.
On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote: Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
Yes, I do think the mu ratios changed a good amount in 1 1/2 months. Terrans went from 3-4 rax openings into 1/1/1 and other extremely different openers in that 1 1/2. That's a huge, huge change. So yes, the mu ratios did change.
Unless you can show me a link or quote where the Blizzard gave stats after patch 10, I'm going assume all your stats are utter bullshit. I've been keeping up with dev statements pretty closely and I'm pretty darn sure they haven't released any stats after the patch 10 one; simply because people probably overreacted to those released stats.
When they say "dominating" they don't mean 70% winrate. It's somethign closer to 55-45 or w/e. The largest discrepancy in win ratios to date was a Zerg blanket 60% winrate in the Asia servers, but that was many, many, many patches ago.
On June 15 2010 05:51 Ghostcom wrote: day[9] #135 is pretty filled with the replays.. My favorite part was Huk getting roflstomped even after having splitted his army up, doing a zeal flank and even manages to get a couple of FF off.
Yeah, the third game in the set (HuK vs BratOK #1) shows just how brutal EMP can be. The biggest lesson to take from it is that, as when fighting hydras, protoss simply can't afford to sit on pure gateway units for too long. At some point, toss has to jump to his tier 3 AoE units: colossi or templar.
The thing that really stood out for me in that day9 135 was the DT rush. HuK timed it extremely well, no raven out for awhile. CC only can typically scan once (unless T scout and saves energy), so he knew that, he brought in DT 1 at a time to bait a scan. Under any other build, that terran player would be seriously hurting.. but because of the early ghosts, bratOK EMP huk in the face repeatedly.. to get time for his raven to pop.
EMP is already so freaken good, wtf does it need to decloak as well?
Well people really misread my Lurker statement, I was simply drawing a comparison between the argument that EMP requires much less APM to use then to counter is invalid because if the game devolves into a player needing to only have 1 more APM then their opponent to win nobody will play it. I simply used the lurker reference to show that there were cases in BW that required more APM from one player to defend/mitigate a tactic from the other player. Instead I think I set a record for most posts in a row quoting the same post. Regardless, the APM requirements weren’t the same for each race in BW and they won’t be the same for SC2 so just suck it up and get over it.
Also, I would like to mention that balancing the game based on players that are bad opposed to the higher level players is a horrible way to do anything, especially for a game you want to be competitive (hell, look what that methodology did to WoW). Alas, this thread and the one making fun of this thread have exhausted their usefulness and it would benefit the quality of the site to close them down.
I don't think we misunderstood you - we Really Just followed your train of thought and explained why it was Okay for the MnM micro to be more challenging than burrowing lurkers - since you Actually benefitted from it. And that is our (or at least mine) problem with EMP. I can do all the spreading I want, but unless the terran is an idiot and EMPs my front row because he sees shields on them instead of saving his EMPs for my casters/immortals no amount of micro is going to benefit me very much.
I'm perfectly fine with different mechanical requirements for different races - as long as the invested extra actions actually make a difference. In the case of EMP I really don't see that happening. But you are right, it would probably be for the better to get a lock on the 2 threads soon.
On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote: Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen. And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways. don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet. If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?
Yes, I do think the mu ratios changed a good amount in 1 1/2 months. Terrans went from 3-4 rax openings into 1/1/1 and other extremely different openers in that 1 1/2. That's a huge, huge change. So yes, the mu ratios did change.
Unless you can show me a link or quote where the Blizzard gave stats after patch 10, I'm going assume all your stats are utter bullshit. I've been keeping up with dev statements pretty closely and I'm pretty darn sure they haven't released any stats after the patch 10 one; simply because people probably overreacted to those released stats.
When they say "dominating" they don't mean 70% winrate. It's somethign closer to 55-45 or w/e. The largest discrepancy in win ratios to date was a Zerg blanket 60% winrate in the Asia servers, but that was many, many, many patches ago.
Please don't abuse stats. The have feelings too.
So basically your arguing that stats probably changed but their unlikely to be anywhere near over 55% to one side? You guys can pick apart details all you want, my point is both stats and replays that have seen to far don't implicate imbalance. I doubt -as would any intelligent betting man- that the TvP stats are way out of wack (anywhere near the z levels in asia patches ago) and most players haven't picked up on it. If you want complaints taken seriously about EMP. I would suggest ether citing some top players supporting the idea, or providing replays with an analysis of points in time where you feel EMP is overpowered. I simply don't have energy for the "game should be balanced for all levels of play," argument. Complaining about the ease of EMP usage vs the ability to minimize the its damage, is just another form of this. Everything should be as easy to fight against as it is to use? I think if you really explore the implications of this, it will become apparent what a ridicules goal that is.
How about we take a different direction on this. Brad_OK has shown us a very potent timing push in D9D 135 using Ghosts and Marines in the early game / early-mid game. There have also been cases of EMP usage in the later stages of the game as well though I feel these are less relevant.
I propose we begin devising and practicing Terran openings and build orders similar to Brad_OK's to flood the second phase of the Beta. In theory, if a change really does need to be made this will show by the lack of the Protoss's ability to create a response to every Terran opening in a similar fashion. Alternatively, if there is an unfound solution (Possibly Zealot Sentry + Hallucination -> +1 armor -> Charge -> HT - possibly not) then it will surface in time as Protoss struggle to compete with our well timed and practiced push.
This methodology worked against mass marauder (pick one) and early reaper openings (fast stalker) and also spawned the immortal build time change (3-4 gate immortal push) that were extremely popular earlier in the beta.
I will most certainly be doing it. I love opening Reactor marines in non-mirror match ups since it can defend so well from pretty much any kind of aggression so transitioning into a Brad_OK style timing push shouldn't be too difficult for me to get down.
When I get home tonight I might try to compare the time his push arrives with a couple different protoss openings and see how the timings match up. I really think a fast hallucination once the ghost academy is scouted should help mitigate the effects of such an early EMP. Curious how the timings will sync up though.
In what situation is it NOT a good idea to build Ghosts against Protoss....? What unit composition or build could the Protoss use that would make you bypass Ghosts in a standard game? What situation would you say that building a Ghost or two would not be worth their investment? Every unit has a situation in which a unit is a very bad idea, against all races. Heavy Air investment... maybe? Void Rays still get eaten alive by vikings even with a single ghost. They stack up pretty well. EMPing Carriers is a lot of heavy damage, and it removed the energy of Mothership and Phoenix (not to mention the shield damage)... so I dunno. Ghost Academy is DIRT cheap, so it is really not a huge issue of money, although Ghosts themselves are a little bit of an investment... So when is making a specific unit against Protoss a bad idea?
HT: Chargelots, Other HT, Carriers Sentry: Heavy Air, Colossi, Chargelots Infestor: HT, Heavy Air Ghosts: uhhhh...
Really, there isn't much reason not to build one, because EVERY unit combination the Protoss can use is made SIGNIFICANTLY weaker by the use of Ghosts.
Many people don't seem to know this, but Ghosts aren't Light. HT was changed to Light early in Beta... it seemed only natural that Ghosts would follow suit... but for some reason they didn't. This means that it takes a decently large amount of Phoenix to counter them. Also you can EMP while you are Grav Beamed, hitting all the attacking Phoenix.
And for those saying that you can't compare Ghosts and HT because they are separated by 1.5 Tiers... I am afraid I do not see your logic... In the SC2 you play, once you reach T3, do all earlier tiers disappear? Are you suddenly unable to build Ghosts when Protoss players build a Templar Archives? While HT and Ghosts don't emerge in the same tier, HT and Ghosts will always be on a battlefield at the same time, because HT emerge AFTER ghosts. This means that they are comparable units. Also: in the PvT build, Ghosts and HT are both used in similar ways. Anti-Caster and Heavy AOE damage. There are of course differences... But really there are similar in function. So yes, HT and Ghost are comparable. That is my argument anyway.
Now, I see the argument that you cannot compare early game use of Ghosts and late game use of Ghosts. But the fact remains, that Ghosts are obscenely powerful at all points of the game.
Early game: they can swamp an army in very few EMPs, doing strong damage to Stalkers and making Sentries just about useless. Ghosts also have a good amount of HP, believe it or not. They are not fragile in any way and are in fact stronger than Sentries.
Mid Game: they are better than HT in just about every way. EMP is very easy to use, does its damage instantly and is available earlier. Ghosts are slightly more expensive, but require very very little research (Mobeus is cheaper and quicker than Khaydarin). Storm may not even be ready by this point, but Mobeus may well be. Ghosts have an attack that does heavy damage to light (Sentries, Templar and Zealots), and keeps them out of the front lines. Remember that Ghosts require significantly less Micro to use than HT, because they have long range abilities, blend in well with the army, and a long range attack that prevents them from running into front lines on an attack move.
Late game: Ghosts are closer to the power of HT at this point, because HT have increased in power, while Ghosts have had a sort of plateau early-mid game, since Mobeus and Cloak can already be finished by this point. As more units become available, and the armies get larger, the power of the Ghost begins to stand out, as it can hit more units with each EMP. Concaves get very difficult (read: virtually impossible) to perform without clumping your units. Immortals, Sentries and HT are all Hard Countered by EMP, while every other unit takes large damage. Phoenix and Motherships are also heavily damaged by the loss of their energy, DT and Observers can also be destroyed by EMP without the need for a Scan.
On June 16 2010 13:29 Zanez.smarty wrote: So Terran Players... answer me this question:
In what situation is it NOT a good idea to build Ghosts against Protoss....? What unit composition or build could the Protoss use that would make you bypass Ghosts in a standard game? What situation would you say that building a Ghost or two would not be worth their investment?
When the Toss is going for mass zealots and/or collossi.
1. A huge delay to your vikings will mean someone who goes for 1 base collossi attack will roll over you.
2. Marines + Ghosts will lose to chargelots + sentry shield (if they activate before attacking)
Note: I don't personally know if anything is OP or not and will not state my opinion about that. Just answering your question.
On June 16 2010 13:29 Zanez.smarty wrote: So Terran Players... answer me this question:
In what situation is it NOT a good idea to build Ghosts against Protoss....? What unit composition or build could the Protoss use that would make you bypass Ghosts in a standard game? What situation would you say that building a Ghost or two would not be worth their investment? Every unit has a situation in which a unit is a very bad idea, against all races. Heavy Air investment... maybe? Void Rays still get eaten alive by vikings even with a single ghost. They stack up pretty well. EMPing Carriers is a lot of heavy damage, and it removed the energy of Mothership and Phoenix (not to mention the shield damage)... so I dunno. Ghost Academy is DIRT cheap, so it is really not a huge issue of money, although Ghosts themselves are a little bit of an investment... So when is making a specific unit against Protoss a bad idea?
HT: Chargelots, Other HT, Carriers Sentry: Heavy Air, Colossi, Chargelots Infestor: HT, Heavy Air Ghosts: uhhhh...
Really, there isn't much reason not to build one, because EVERY unit combination the Protoss can use is made SIGNIFICANTLY weaker by the use of Ghosts.
Many people don't seem to know this, but Ghosts aren't Light. HT was changed to Light early in Beta... it seemed only natural that Ghosts would follow suit... but for some reason they didn't. This means that it takes a decently large amount of Phoenix to counter them. Also you can EMP while you are Grav Beamed, hitting all the attacking Phoenix.
And for those saying that you can't compare Ghosts and HT because they are separated by 1.5 Tiers... I am afraid I do not see your logic... In the SC2 you play, once you reach T3, do all earlier tiers disappear? Are you suddenly unable to build Ghosts when Protoss players build a Templar Archives? While HT and Ghosts don't emerge in the same tier, HT and Ghosts will always be on a battlefield at the same time, because HT emerge AFTER ghosts. This means that they are comparable units. Also: in the PvT build, Ghosts and HT are both used in similar ways. Anti-Caster and Heavy AOE damage. There are of course differences... But really there are similar in function. So yes, HT and Ghost are comparable. That is my argument anyway.
Now, I see the argument that you cannot compare early game use of Ghosts and late game use of Ghosts. But the fact remains, that Ghosts are obscenely powerful at all points of the game.
Early game: they can swamp an army in very few EMPs, doing strong damage to Stalkers and making Sentries just about useless. Ghosts also have a good amount of HP, believe it or not. They are not fragile in any way and are in fact stronger than Sentries.
Mid Game: they are better than HT in just about every way. EMP is very easy to use, does its damage instantly and is available earlier. Ghosts are slightly more expensive, but require very very little research (Mobeus is cheaper and quicker than Khaydarin). Storm may not even be ready by this point, but Mobeus may well be. Ghosts have an attack that does heavy damage to light (Sentries, Templar and Zealots), and keeps them out of the front lines. Remember that Ghosts require significantly less Micro to use than HT, because they have long range abilities, blend in well with the army, and a long range attack that prevents them from running into front lines on an attack move.
Late game: Ghosts are closer to the power of HT at this point, because HT have increased in power, while Ghosts have had a sort of plateau early-mid game, since Mobeus and Cloak can already be finished by this point. As more units become available, and the armies get larger, the power of the Ghost begins to stand out, as it can hit more units with each EMP. Concaves get very difficult (read: virtually impossible) to perform without clumping your units. Immortals, Sentries and HT are all Hard Countered by EMP, while every other unit takes large damage. Phoenix and Motherships are also heavily damaged by the loss of their energy, DT and Observers can also be destroyed by EMP without the need for a Scan.
This is all true, but I think Ghosts are actually far better than HTs late game. It requires getting the cloak upgrade and moving out/microing/scouting, but it's all worth it to not get stormed to hell. Then it's just a matter of 1at'ing your way to the victory screen. Since EMP removes Storm energy, the Protoss will often be caught with pants down and no energy, with army dead before he can even warp in HT's, Khaydarin or not.
On June 16 2010 13:29 Zanez.smarty wrote: So Terran Players... answer me this question:
In what situation is it NOT a good idea to build Ghosts against Protoss....? What unit composition or build could the Protoss use that would make you bypass Ghosts in a standard game? What situation would you say that building a Ghost or two would not be worth their investment?
When the Toss is going for mass zealots and/or collossi.
1. A huge delay to your vikings will mean someone who goes for 1 base collossi attack will roll over you.
2. Marines + Ghosts will lose to chargelots + sentry shield (if they activate before attacking)
Note: I don't personally know if anything is OP or not and will not state my opinion about that. Just answering your question.
A single Ghost will back up Marauders nicely when fighting Zealots, since they do heavy damage to light. Early game, it is not the best idea, because of the cost required for Ghosts. You don't use Marines to fight Zealots well. Not to mention Zealots only do PARTICULARLY well vs Marines after Charge, an armor upgrade and a GS. GS is not an issue with Ghosts. Once charge is in the picture, Stim is in the picture, in which case Marines can do just fine vs Zealots (unless they have GS up... hey look! Ghosts ARE a good idea when fighting Zealots now!)
Colossi take 4 shots to kill ghosts, while a quick EMP hit and run softens up the Colossi nicely meaning the Vikings don't need to go through nearly as many shield points before they can actually start doing damage. Now, I am not saying to get a LARGE number of ghosts, because frankly, that would be silly... They are too expensive to invest too much. Saying that a single ghost when fighting Colossi is a bad idea, is... well wrong. With the same 150/150 that the ghost costs you could get 2 Vikings maybe? Not equal to 100 HP for each colossi. Also, they counter the Immortals that almost invariably come with Colossi.
1. GS go up before entering battle. EMP does not stop GS in any way. Zealots with GS slaughters stimmed marines even without an armor upgrade. Charge makes it even more one sided. Wait, are you suggesting mass marauder against mass chargelot+few sentries? What?
2. I said collossi, not immortals. Why would a Toss build immortals against marine/ghost? My point was that you won't have vikings when collossi are out because you went for ghosts.
These are just my counters for the Gretorp/BratOK's marine/ghost timing rush. I of course agree that getting ghosts EVENTUALLY is never a bad thing.
On June 16 2010 14:36 link0 wrote: You are completely ignoring the point of my post.
1. GS go up before entering battle. EMP does not stop GS in any way. Zealots with GS slaughters stimmed marines even without an armor upgrade. Charge makes it even more one sided. Wait, are you suggesting mass marauder against mass chargelot+few sentries? What?
2. I said collossi, not immortals. Why would a Toss build immortals against marine/ghost? My point was that you won't have vikings when collossi are out because you went for ghosts.
These are just my counters for the Gretorp/BratOK's marine/ghost timing rush. I of course agree that getting ghosts EVENTUALLY is never a bad thing.
I am not ignoring the point of your post. I am simply stating that it is not a bad idea to get Ghosts at some point during a standard game. Rushing to Ghosts is a dumb plan obviously, as is making a large amount of them. It only takes 1... After 1 or 2, their effectivness diminishes, as EMP doesnt stack.
1. If they GS, run away, wait for it to wear off. If we are talking early game, then he won't have charge. If we are talking mid game, then the cost of Ghosts is not a huge issue for you. Zealots don't slaughter stimmed marines if the Terran player has even the simplest concept of micro. When Charge comes into the picture, that changes. But at this time, he either has next to no Zealots, or you are in mid game, by which Ghosts are not an issue. Marauders do just fine against Zealots w.o charge as well. By the time charge comes into the picture, a large force of Marauder (concuss) and Marine (stim) should be on the field. You need to eat an early GS, but after the first one, he has no more, since u EMPd his sentries to prevent force field. Right?
Now admittedly in this scenario, no Ghosts are not the best idea ever. But they are not a BAD idea. This could be the ONLY situation in which Ghosts are not 100% devastating, but merely very powerful. Zealots (chargelots especially) benefit ENORMOUSLY from Sentries. So what happens when we emerge into the mid-late game to fight Zealot/Sentry/HT? Well... Ghosts counter everything there except Zealots. You are right, Ghosts are a bad idea against heavy Zealot forces... But to assume that those Zealots will not be backed up by other units is ridiculous. So I am afraid I cannot concede this point.
2. Colossi and Immortals both come from Robo facility. And no, i am not suggesting you build immortals against Marine Ghost. Are you suggesting you make marine Ghost against Colossi? Ghost and their tech are cheap enough for you to get them alongside vikings. Ghosts can accompany any tech, because they only require a rax-tech in order to make. This is a path leading to any and every build. Bio, Air or Mech. Ghosts work well in any of these. In this way, Immortals can come out VS mech on the way to Colossi. The fact is, Ghosts do not significantly get in your way of getting Vikings out. Especially considering the Reactor pumps Vikings out super fast.
So why is it a bad idea to get Ghosts against Colossi? Mech + Viking absolutely annihalate Colossus builds... but since Immortals will always accompany Cols in this match up, their effectiveness is magnified intensely by the presence of a ghost.
for the sake of comparison: -ghost emp round has a radius of 2 that deals 100 dmg t shields and drains energy instantly -ht storm has a radius of 1.5 and does 80 dmg over 4 seconds
im not saying storm is underpowered but EMP knockin off 100 health to all the units right off the bat of any engagement in addition to barring sentry and ht micro is pretty amazing.
from a design standpoint i personally think emp is retarded why would blizzard make a t2 unit that starts with a silver bullet vs protoss. i mean a lot of different things are good in crtain matchups but this ability is intentionally to screw protoss. i think this is a mistake in design. i think emp at the very least should require a 100/100 research.
On June 16 2010 13:29 Zanez.smarty wrote: So Terran Players... answer me this question:
In what situation is it NOT a good idea to build Ghosts against Protoss....? What unit composition or build could the Protoss use that would make you bypass Ghosts in a standard game? What situation would you say that building a Ghost or two would not be worth their investment?
When the Toss is going for mass zealots and/or collossi.
Could work. Someone needs to test the timing on either Charge research with a healthy amount of zealots or Colossus with Thermal Lances (which makes them, you know, useful) to see if either of these things come out in time to repel (and hopefully roll over) brad_OK's timing push.
On an unrelated note: Didn't Storm do way more damage in Brood War? And it was in a larger radius. I wonder why they weakened it. I try to use templar tech as much as possible in my games (because I'm bored of robo tech), and while it doesn't feel incredibly weak, it does feel weaker than Colossi, and serves a similar function while being much more micro intensive. I hear people say HT's are harder to counter than Colossi, but that could be because for months, every Protoss player went with Colossi, and now the counters are really well known.
On June 16 2010 21:34 SilverforceX wrote: Storm is weaker because SC2 AI pathing is extremely good, your units will all form into a ball. So any AoE effect is automatically so much better.
I'll be surprised if EMP remained as it is now for long.
Well that's odd, I was under the impression that Storm is an AoE effect.
EMP does not cause massive problems for me. How I deal with it is as follows, I like to engage in smaller battles. I tend to get fast observers, old sc habit, and if i see ghosts coming out I try to force battles. If the terran is not coming out I try to use forcefields and then break his front. Anyway, like i said, I engage with smaller armies because an EMP doesn't effect me as much as it would if it went off on a large army. I also like to micro so I pretty much attack non-stop and make him waste his EMP's.
MangoTango he is referring to the fact that any AoE spell became significantly more powerful purely because units "ball up" much better then in BW, therefore an AoE spell will hit many more targets (thus doing more net damage) then in the predecessor. To balance this, the effects of such spells must be diminished else they will simply do way too much damage.
I believe it is for this reason that the radius on Storm was reduced earlier in the beta.
On June 16 2010 23:25 STS17 wrote: MangoTango he is referring to the fact that any AoE spell became significantly more powerful purely because units "ball up" much better then in BW, therefore an AoE spell will hit many more targets (thus doing more net damage) then in the predecessor. To balance this, the effects of such spells must be diminished else they will simply do way too much damage.
I believe it is for this reason that the radius on Storm was reduced earlier in the beta.
This is it. SC2 pathing is so efficient, aoe spells are devastating. Storm getting nerf to its current iteration is actually quite fine with me. It's effect isn't game breaking and allow ppl to micro out of it to reduce its effects. If anything, i think the research for storm should be cheaper/faster. Building a cybercore > twilight > archives is a long and costly investment.. requiring another two costly research is a bit overkill.
However, I don't get why EMP escaped the rebalancing, it's got a bigger aoe and even more devasting vs protoss than storm vs terran.
On June 16 2010 23:25 STS17 wrote: MangoTango he is referring to the fact that any AoE spell became significantly more powerful purely because units "ball up" much better then in BW, therefore an AoE spell will hit many more targets (thus doing more net damage) then in the predecessor. To balance this, the effects of such spells must be diminished else they will simply do way too much damage.
I believe it is for this reason that the radius on Storm was reduced earlier in the beta.
This is it. SC2 pathing is so efficient, aoe spells are devastating. Storm getting nerf to its current iteration is actually quite fine with me. It's effect isn't game breaking and allow ppl to micro out of it to reduce its effects. If anything, i think the research for storm should be cheaper/faster. Building a cybercore > twilight > archives is a long and costly investment.. requiring another two costly research is a bit overkill.
However, I don't get why EMP escaped the rebalancing, it's got a bigger aoe and even more devasting vs protoss than storm vs terran.
The AOE size of EMP was lowered in a patch in early beta around the same time as psy storm
edit: actually a patch earlier, patch 6 was EMP from 3 to 2 and patch 7 was psy from 2 to 1.5
On June 16 2010 13:29 Zanez.smarty wrote: So Terran Players... answer me this question:
In what situation is it NOT a good idea to build Ghosts against Protoss....? What unit composition or build could the Protoss use that would make you bypass Ghosts in a standard game? What situation would you say that building a Ghost or two would not be worth their investment?
When the Toss is going for mass zealots and/or collossi.
1. A huge delay to your vikings will mean someone who goes for 1 base collossi attack will roll over you.
2. Marines + Ghosts will lose to chargelots + sentry shield (if they activate before attacking)
Note: I don't personally know if anything is OP or not and will not state my opinion about that. Just answering your question.
IIRC the Ghost Marine push comes before they will have Colossi + Thermal lance, but even if they didn't the argument wasn't about a ghost rush but ghosts in general. You could easily add a couple ghosts to a mech build against Colossi.
Against chargelots, I don't see the ghost being the weak link. It does 50 damage straight off to the zealots and is basically 2 marauders for the rest of it. The marines aren't a great choice, but the ghost doesn't hurt at all.
I'm almost positive someone has said this, and I'm fairly certain it works, though, since the beta is down, I haven't tried it. If you feedback as soon as humanly possible, due to the animation of EMP, the feedback hits before the EMP lands. This means the ghost still has full mana, or whatever he had before the EMP was launched. Mana is only taken away once it hits. Not the most important detail, or the most used, but it's something to consider. EDIT: Archons also do like 60 or so damage a shot to bio units, which is right around what a tank does, without splash. They have 200 shields, so thusly, they still have shields, and not only shields but the majority of their health. So, if you see ghosts, and you have templar, making Archons might be a logical move.
Since the terran has this huge bio-mass, collosi would definately kill it along with the ghost with or without the emp being casted. If the terran player gets vikings, then getting a larger stalker/zealot ground army would make up for it. If the collosi are taken out, you still win because he needs to land the vikings while his ground army is demolished. The collosi would also have a few good shots before dying and he would have to fly his vikings away being chased by a giant protoss ground army. It's also kinda nice to stop collosi production and make immortals instead if you know the other guy is making vikings creating an other reason for the vikings not to land.
On June 29 2010 09:24 Interfect wrote: Since the terran has this huge bio-mass, collosi would definately kill it along with the ghost with or without the emp being casted. If the terran player gets vikings, then getting a larger stalker/zealot ground army would make up for it. If the collosi are taken out, you still win because he needs to land the vikings while his ground army is demolished. The collosi would also have a few good shots before dying and he would have to fly his vikings away being chased by a giant protoss ground army. It's also kinda nice to stop collosi production and make immortals instead if you know the other guy is making vikings creating an other reason for the vikings not to land.
The primary issue is production facilities. You can't have 2-3 robos and 6+ warp gates efficiently. And this whole counter v counter mentality is really flawed. Make an army strong enough that EMP doesn't matter.
You don't need 2-3 robos or 6+ warp gates. Having 1/2 collosi with range upgrade and a good number of ground units would do well against the early biomass, and you can always use the ramp to your main and a forcefield. It's not that you make an army strong enough that emp doesn't matter, it's just that the biomass composition like that doesn't do well against an army with collosi. If it's early game and they rushed for ghost or something, i would expect them to spend a lot of their gas on ghost and not have any gas remaining for marauders (or atleast a lot of them). Thus collosi will melt the marines and the ghost. This only requires one robo and a gateway. You'd probably be able to have 2 gateways at that time, but it's all good.
The thing about the vikings is because it takes time for the vikings to land and they can't hit ground while in air. So if you focus on producing gateway units and immortals while stopping collosi production (day9 mentioned something like this somewhere), when you engage the terran, their ground army is a lot smaller then your ground army. That way you can mop the floor while the terran's vikings are still in the air. Even if the terran has emp, they still won't be able to deal enough damage because a large part of their army (vikings) aren't dealing damage. If the vikings landed before they you encounter them, then your leftover collosi would slaughter his army. Not to mention they're pretty bad against immortals with on the ground. This is later in game and probably would have your natural up too. You would probally need 2 robo and 4-6 warp gates. It's kinda interesting how some terrans would make at least 1/3 of their army vikings if they see a collosus just to one-hit kill one.
On June 29 2010 10:06 Interfect wrote: You don't need 2-3 robos or 6+ warp gates.
One or the other is pretty standard on two bases. 6 may be a little too low, and 3 may be a bit too high.
Having 1/2 collosi with range upgrade and a good number of ground units would do well against the early biomass, and you can always use the ramp to your main and a forcefield. It's not that you make an army strong enough that emp doesn't matter, it's just that the biomass composition like that doesn't do well against an army with collosi.
Ah, that's it. Well, what if they go ghost mech? Or ghost air or something ridiculous? More importantly, this counter mindset is really vulnerable, especially to the aforementioned vikings.
If it's early game and they rushed for ghost or something, i would expect them to spend a lot of their gas on ghost and not have any gas remaining for marauders (or atleast a lot of them). Thus collosi will melt the marines and the ghost. This only requires one robo and a gateway. You'd probably be able to have 2 gateways at that time, but it's all good.
Marines are better than marauders for DPS, but the whole colossi thing. If you're not straight defending, any less than 2 warp gates won't be very good. Regardless, marauders or not, any deviation from standard bio (An early starport or any mech) will run over that colossus, especially with ghost support. Anyhow, your argument that our counters are balanced cause your counters kill our counters is so flawed, I don't even feel like explaining.
The thing about the vikings is because it takes time for the vikings to land and they can't hit ground while in air. So if you focus on producing gateway units and immortals while stopping collosi production (day9 mentioned something like this somewhere), when you engage the terran, their ground army is a lot smaller then your ground army.
Well, Mr. Counter guy, what about the fact that ghosts are the MAIN counter to immortals? As for army size, all this money spent on the robo bay is money that isn't units, thus, if he's macroing properly, he'll be bigger than you, and he'll have Stim/Shields/Concussive shells/the ghost upgrade, whilst you'll be lucky to get a forge upgrade.
That way you can mop the floor while the terran's vikings are still in the air. Even if the terran has emp, they still won't be able to deal enough damage because a large part of their army (vikings) aren't dealing damage. If the vikings landed before they you encounter them, then your leftover collosi would slaughter his army. Not to mention they're pretty bad against immortals with on the ground.
Well, the majority of his air force won't be vikings if he isn't an idiot. If there are colossi left, the vikings won't switch to ground mode, if your opponent is mildly competent. The majority of his air will be medivacs, assuming he's going bio.
This is later in game and probably would have your natural up too. You would probally need 2 robo and 4-6 warp gates. It's kinda interesting how some terrans would make at least 1/3 of their army vikings if they see a collosus just to one-hit kill one.
Those terrans are BAD. You can support 3-4 gates on one base so, late game, at least your numbers sound right.
In a bit of a bad mood, and I hate all this counter bullshit.
On June 29 2010 10:36 trucejl wrote: every unit in the game has a unit they dont wanna c on the other side, with the exception of ghost
Sure, they do. Want me to go down the list? Archon, carrier, HT(Arguably), phoenix, stalker, zealot. Thing is, even a collosus sucks horribly by itself. Same with a ghost or anything else.
On June 29 2010 10:36 trucejl wrote: every unit in the game has a unit they dont wanna c on the other side, with the exception of ghost
Sure, they do. Want me to go down the list? Archon, carrier, HT(Arguably), phoenix, stalker, zealot. Thing is, even a collosus sucks horribly by itself. Same with a ghost or anything else.
the only thing on that list that is decent against ghost is zealots. carriers suck period. ghosts own ht in the hand of same skill level players. stalker is horrendous against ghost, lost half hp to emp. phoenix are just flying pieces of crap after emp. archons would be good if they can ever get close enough to touch the ghost assuming it doesnt get raped by emp
i never said units by itself. most unit mix there is something u rather not c unless u get the whole tech tree -.-
To be honest, I'm not going to agree with you going phoenix here. It's just too hard to snipe a ghost when marines are blasting you out of the sky so quickly. Not only that, but you're already complaining about ghosts blending in... I don't find phoenix to be a good counter to ghosts at all. Only sieged tanks / SCV harrass.
Having 1/2 collosi with range upgrade and a good number of ground units would do well against the early biomass, and you can always use the ramp to your main and a forcefield. It's not that you make an army strong enough that emp doesn't matter, it's just that the biomass composition like that doesn't do well against an army with collosi.
Ah, that's it. Well, what if they go ghost mech? Or ghost air or something ridiculous? More importantly, this counter mindset is really vulnerable, especially to the aforementioned vikings.
If it's early game and they rushed for ghost or something, i would expect them to spend a lot of their gas on ghost and not have any gas remaining for marauders (or atleast a lot of them). Thus collosi will melt the marines and the ghost. This only requires one robo and a gateway. You'd probably be able to have 2 gateways at that time, but it's all good.
Marines are better than marauders for DPS, but the whole colossi thing. If you're not straight defending, any less than 2 warp gates won't be very good. Regardless, marauders or not, any deviation from standard bio (An early starport or any mech) will run over that colossus, especially with ghost support. Anyhow, your argument that our counters are balanced cause your counters kill our counters is so flawed, I don't even feel like explaining.
The thing about the vikings is because it takes time for the vikings to land and they can't hit ground while in air. So if you focus on producing gateway units and immortals while stopping collosi production (day9 mentioned something like this somewhere), when you engage the terran, their ground army is a lot smaller then your ground army.
Well, Mr. Counter guy, what about the fact that ghosts are the MAIN counter to immortals? As for army size, all this money spent on the robo bay is money that isn't units, thus, if he's macroing properly, he'll be bigger than you, and he'll have Stim/Shields/Concussive shells/the ghost upgrade, whilst you'll be lucky to get a forge upgrade.
That way you can mop the floor while the terran's vikings are still in the air. Even if the terran has emp, they still won't be able to deal enough damage because a large part of their army (vikings) aren't dealing damage. If the vikings landed before they you encounter them, then your leftover collosi would slaughter his army. Not to mention they're pretty bad against immortals with on the ground.
Well, the majority of his air force won't be vikings if he isn't an idiot. If there are colossi left, the vikings won't switch to ground mode, if your opponent is mildly competent. The majority of his air will be medivacs, assuming he's going bio.
This is later in game and probably would have your natural up too. You would probally need 2 robo and 4-6 warp gates. It's kinda interesting how some terrans would make at least 1/3 of their army vikings if they see a collosus just to one-hit kill one.
Those terrans are BAD. You can support 3-4 gates on one base so, late game, at least your numbers sound right.
In a bit of a bad mood, and I hate all this counter bullshit.
Sigh... the first and second argument is invalid cause it's early game, before your even able to get an expansion. It's a one base rush to collossi against a one base terran rushing to get ghost. The best you can get at that time really is one robo and 2 gateways/warpgates. Economy won't support anymore unless you expand.
3rd argument, if they went to get ghost, how do they have the resources to get a factory and a starport at the same time you get a robo and a robo bay? Like honestly you gotta make a ghost academy, make the ghost, make the factory, and then make the starport, and then the viking or even a banshee while massing marines all at the same time i warp in a robo and a robo bay? I don't even know how you have the gas to support all that, not to mention the minerals to even expand for gas. Also is there really not even enough time to get a stalker or two? For the mech, a siege tank upgraded with siege mode? Did you even consider the time to get that after you teched all the way to ghost?
4th argument, how would you be able to shoot if you can't see up a ramp? Not only that you manage to tech all those buildings and get stim all at the same time?!?!?! something's not right here. Oh btw, marines melt to collossi fire. Especially if marine range is lower than the colossi range with upgrade. Don't forget the force field on ramp! Can't shoot what you can't see! Scan? There goes your mule but you still can't touch me.
5th argument, how does the terran suddenly have all these upgrades including the ghost upgrade with vikings as well as keep up army production with protoss with the same amount of bases. Hmmm.... i know the terran has mule but it doesn't create this much of a gap.
6th Argument, yes ghost are counter to immortals but only if partnered with other units like marauders and marines. The only problem is the ai targeting the zealots which are raping them and stalkers there just to make life much worse. Sure you can target fire the immortals, but since you wanted more medivacs and less vikings, mind you, the collossi don't die instantly to a small handful of viking fire.You also make it sound like the cost of a robo and the range upgrade is more expensive then a ghost academy, ghost cloak, ghost energy, stim pack, shields, concussive shells, factory, starport, 3/4 techlab. Why is that?
7th Argument, dude if you make all your starports produce medivacs and only a small handful of vikings, there wouldn't even be a need to stop colossi production. 3-4 Vikings won't do anything to a stalker/colossi army. Especially with blink.
Counter bullshit: Hah! You know? Everything can be countered, even what i say can be countered. There's no such thing as an invincible build. Every build has a weakness that gets found out sooner or later. The unit composition you are talking about does work, but the amount of resources spent on all those upgrades and tech buildings as well as the timing just doesn't sound right. Honestly like:
Supply -----> Barrack ----> Supply (Walling off of course) ------> Orbital Command ----> Ghost Academy -----> Tech Lab ------> Stim ----> Shield -----> Concussive Shells ------> Ghost's Cloak ------> Ghost's Energy -------> Barrack --------> Barrack -------> Factory -----> Starport ~ something like that except maybe somehow have minerals to expand too
Does this really happen in game? I'm kinda curious how Terrans can do all this that fast. Someone just tell how this is even possible. Also note that the Terran army also outnumbers the toss army too.
I honestly don't see Archons as viable counters to a bio+ghost push. One good EMP shot can take down a group of Archons. What's worse is if Terran has 1 or 2 more Ghosts in the group.
On June 29 2010 14:05 Sets wrote: I honestly don't see Archons as viable counters to a bio+ghost push. One good EMP shot can take down a group of Archons. What's worse is if Terran has 1 or 2 more Ghosts in the group.
Well actually you would need 3-4 good emp shots to take down a group of archons.
archons get raped by every mm ball, doesnt even need emp: they get snared, block themselves/get blocked by zeals, they never get in range, and even if they do, they get like 2 shots off wohoo
On June 29 2010 11:35 Interfect wrote: Sigh... the first and second argument is invalid cause it's early game, before your even able to get an expansion. It's a one base rush to collossi against a one base terran rushing to get ghost. The best you can get at that time really is one robo and 2 gateways/warpgates. Economy won't support anymore unless you expand.
I agree, entirely. The second is still entirely valid, however. Ghost mech works, using, typically, the 1/1/1 opening that is so popular these days.
3rd argument, if they went to get ghost, how do they have the resources to get a factory and a starport at the same time you get a robo and a robo bay? Like honestly you gotta make a ghost academy, make the ghost, make the factory, and then make the starport, and then the viking or even a banshee while massing marines all at the same time i warp in a robo and a robo bay? I don't even know how you have the gas to support all that, not to mention the minerals to even expand for gas. Also is there really not even enough time to get a stalker or two? For the mech, a siege tank upgraded with siege mode? Did you even consider the time to get that after you teched all the way to ghost?
Way to misunderstand ENTIRELY. I am saying that what if they don't go bio? Last time I checked anything but bio raped collossi. One rax, one fax, one port is somewhat supportable on one base, but more likely, it'd be mostly fax or mostly air in this scenario. Teching to ghost doesn't take long. A) Built a rax, add a tech lab, which you'll do no matter what, typically. B) Ghost acadamey, which isn't too slow or that expensive. It just means that you'll be making almost exclusively marines OR hellions early on. C) Make a ghost. Expensive, but you only need one or two.
4th argument, how would you be able to shoot if you can't see up a ramp? Not only that you manage to tech all those buildings and get stim all at the same time?!?!?! something's not right here. Oh btw, marines melt to collossi fire. Especially if marine range is lower than the colossi range with upgrade. Don't forget the force field on ramp! Can't shoot what you can't see! Scan? There goes your mule but you still can't touch me.
I'm not saying Stim AND tech, just stim OR tech. If you're going bio, those upgrades are easy to get. If you're not, then you're not getting them. =] By the way, that last sentence made me laugh sooo hard. I'm not even going to MENTION the whole scan/floating building dynamic, and instead am going to say that a contain gives map control, which lets the terran expand.
5th argument, how does the terran suddenly have all these upgrades including the ghost upgrade with vikings as well as keep up army production with protoss with the same amount of bases. Hmmm.... i know the terran has mule but it doesn't create this much of a gap.
The idea is to stop viking production immediately when the colossi go away, maybe transition to medivacs, maybe not. It's not unheard of to have a decent bio ball and medivacs off of one base. It's not ideal, but it can happen. Of course, if you're teching, you're losing map control as said above. I'm not sure about ALL of the upgrades but at the very least Stim. The ghost upgrade I know next to nothing about practically. Ideally, there'd be a push, then an expansion but I digress.
6th Argument, yes ghost are counter to immortals but only if partnered with other units like marauders and marines.
This made me chuckle. GO MASS GHOSTS!!!
The only problem is the ai targeting the zealots which are raping them and stalkers there just to make life much worse. Sure you can target fire the immortals, but since you wanted more medivacs and less vikings, mind you, the collossi don't die instantly to a small handful of viking fire.You also make it sound like the cost of a robo and the range upgrade is more expensive then a ghost academy, ghost cloak, ghost energy, stim pack, shields, concussive shells, factory, starport, 3/4 techlab. Why is that?
If I made it sound anything like that, I apologize. I meant to say that the various tech paths for the terran are all viable. As for immortals, the idea was that you'd have Colossi or Immortals. You wouldn't want to stop colossi production to make lousy immortals, would you? Well, if the colossi stop, you stop making vikings. It makes everything very smooth.
7th Argument, dude if you make all your starports produce medivacs and only a small handful of vikings, there wouldn't even be a need to stop colossi production. 3-4 Vikings won't do anything to a stalker/colossi army. Especially with blink.
So you're telling me that whilst you produce colossi and stalkers off of one base- negating the zealot statement earlier- you have the money to put down templar tech. But, I won't stress that, due to the fact that it's a more mid game upgrade and the idea is to completely decimate vikings you get the blink stalkers. Fair enough. But the rest of this was covered above.
Counter bullshit: Hah! You know? Everything can be countered, even what i say can be countered. There's no such thing as an invincible build. Every build has a weakness that gets found out sooner or later. The unit composition you are talking about does work, but the amount of resources spent on all those upgrades and tech buildings as well as the timing just doesn't sound right. Honestly like:
Supply -----> Barrack ----> Supply (Walling off of course) ------> Orbital Command ----> Ghost Academy -----> Tech Lab ------> Stim ----> Shield -----> Concussive Shells ------> Ghost's Cloak ------> Ghost's Energy -------> Barrack --------> Barrack -------> Factory -----> Starport ~ something like that except maybe somehow have minerals to expand too.
Who said anything about Ghost cloak? XD. Anyhow, that seems a tad off, right, but I understand your point. I can't give definite numbers and/or build orders but you have a point. I think that maybe cutting a rax would help significantly if the threat of early colossi presented itself. I'm no expert, but again, you're not doing EVERYTHING I said, though you could off of 2-3 bases, you're just doing one or the other. However, from what I've seen, an early viking is pretty standard. There's a game somewhere. . . The game Not exactly the same, but he effectively does a similar sort of thing. Mostly marines a few ghosts and tanks, into vikings whilst expanding. It shows that something similar can happen, and it's by QXC so it's gotta be good.
Does this really happen in game? I'm kinda curious how Terrans can do all this that fast. Someone just tell how this is even possible. Also note that the Terran army also outnumbers the toss army too.
Terran is OP. >.> Really though, the marine is the vast majority of the army, and it's really really cheap.
I'm also in a bad mood today.
It shows. Good Game, well played. I'd rather not counter your counter bullshit with my own counter bullshit another time.
EDIT: that was a really long post. XD. More importantly, however, the point I'm trying to make is that going from colloxen into immortals doesn't work very well due to the transition from vikings to medivacs. Alright, done.
On June 29 2010 14:05 Sets wrote: I honestly don't see Archons as viable counters to a bio+ghost push. One good EMP shot can take down a group of Archons. What's worse is if Terran has 1 or 2 more Ghosts in the group.
Well actually you would need 3-4 good emp shots to take down a group of archons.
I was just naming some units semi-randomly. XD. Probes are good against a lone ghost for christ's sake.
Omg really, you really want to start this endless argument don't you. We can go on and on with "I got this build that beats your build", and a "well i got another build that beats this build" and on and on. I mentioned a build against a bio, and you reply with "well I can go a Mech Ghost Build and kill that build". Dude of course the mech ghost build counters my build, but the thing, in my case the Terran went bio and not the Mech Ghost Build. Saying "What if i don't go bio, then your build wouldn't work!" is just plain stupid. The thing is that toss player scouts you first and decides whether or not to do this build, it's not a what if. I'm am well aware this build is not invincible, and clearly it's only used for certain circumstances. I'm also not saying that the player should stick with this build the entire game, instead they should change according to how the opponent is playing. All you say is what if, what if. This build is not for a what if, it's for when the Terran is definitely going bio and knowing so is achieved though something called scouting. Did i clear up the rest of the misunderstandings? By the way, the only to really counter ghost depends on what units the ghost is with. There's no such build good against bio and mech at the same time.
Transition from Colossus to Immortal: You've heard of plays from sc1 like the Fake Double or w/e right? Where you make one building to trick your opponent into thinking your doing something you're actually not doing. In this case you trick the opponent into thinking that you're making more Colossus thus preparing more vikings when you're actually making immortals instead. Of course it won't work if the Terran knows, it would no longer be a trick. Do you get it now? Ghost counter immortals = True. But the thing is that you trick the Terran into making vikings and less marines, ghost, medivacs and marauders.
I'm sure your just gonna end up posting another post going " well, there's this other build i could've done and then your build wouldn't work!", these thoughts don't appear until after the match when you have lost. If could've done another build, I could also do anyother build, plain and simple as that.
Templar - 50/150/2 in 55s Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s
Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100
Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2
Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds
Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups.
Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well.
On June 30 2010 07:58 Interfect wrote: Omg really, you really want to start this endless argument don't you. We can go on and on with "I got this build that beats your build", and a "well i got another build that beats this build" and on and on. I mentioned a build against a bio, and you reply with "well I can go a Mech Ghost Build and kill that build". Dude of course the mech ghost build counters my build, but the thing, in my case the Terran went bio and not the Mech Ghost Build. Saying "What if i don't go bio, then your build wouldn't work!" is just plain stupid. The thing is that toss player scouts you first and decides whether or not to do this build, it's not a what if. I'm am well aware this build is not invincible, and clearly it's only used for certain circumstances. I'm also not saying that the player should stick with this build the entire game, instead they should change according to how the opponent is playing. All you say is what if, what if. This build is not for a what if, it's for when the Terran is definitely going bio and knowing so is achieved though something called scouting. Did i clear up the rest of the misunderstandings? By the way, the only to really counter ghost depends on what units the ghost is with. There's no such build good against bio and mech at the same time.
Transition from Colossus to Immortal: You've heard of plays from sc1 like the Fake Double or w/e right? Where you make one building to trick your opponent into thinking your doing something you're actually not doing. In this case you trick the opponent into thinking that you're making more Colossus thus preparing more vikings when you're actually making immortals instead. Of course it won't work if the Terran knows, it would no longer be a trick. Do you get it now? Ghost counter immortals = True. But the thing is that you trick the Terran into making vikings and less marines, ghost, medivacs and marauders.
I'm sure your just gonna end up posting another post going " well, there's this other build i could've done and then your build wouldn't work!", these thoughts don't appear until after the match when you have lost. If could've done another build, I could also do anyother build, plain and simple as that.
Alright this is it, and it's only on one small portion of your bloated post, and I'm just saying this for the fifth time. If there aren't colossi, then you get scouting/harassing vikings. Yay. And if they don't come, then you get medivacs. This doesn't break the bio build, and you have just as many units as before. Actually, you may be able to squeeze in more ghosts if you cut the medivacs. Medivac: 100/100. Viking: 150/75. Regardless, sorry this has become uncivil. And I'm sorry if I misunderstood your posts. All this talk of counters is nonsense.
On June 30 2010 13:30 jerry507 wrote: Templar - 50/150/2 in 55s Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s
Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100
Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2
Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds
Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups.
Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well.
Thanks! Both are also produced at a building you already have, (Rax/Warp gate), and both have reasonable tech paths. (I consider templar reasonable due to the need for templar archives for upgrades, and the awesomeness of charge.) And to add to what you said, when the protoss push into a position they can't back out of, the Templar are in range to Feedback. It's nice to have some numbers.
I don't know if this has been suggested in this post cuz I only had 5 minutes to read the OP.
Why not try going quite a lot of sentries and hallucinating a bunch of HT's. I bet there aren't a lot of Terran's who would give up the oppurtunity to EMP a grouped up bunch of 4-5 HT's. Once they've blown it, move your real HT's in and storm away.
Also I keeping Ht's in warp prisms a la reavers in shuttles to protect them and make them more mobile might work too
On June 30 2010 13:30 jerry507 wrote: Templar - 50/150/2 in 55s Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s
Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100
Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2
Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds
Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups.
Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well.
Are you really trying to say that a ghost costing 100 minerals more than a templar, when it is the gas that is the limiting factor in pretty much any terran build makes them "far more expensive"?
Their EMP removes 30-50% of the health of the army - saying it doesn't do any damage simply because it can be regenerated is like saying that zerg is invulnerable because every point of damage done to them can be regenerated. Surely you can't mean that?
You also disregard the COMPLETE energy wipe which is actually the biggest problem about it since it means no way to escape (no FF to stop marauders with shells) and no way to take on the terran army (GL without any storms).
Storm has a range of 6 with a radius of 1.5 - that means it'll at BEST have a range of 7,5 - not 9! This means that my templars combined with their slow move has to be pretty close to the army, and since ghosts are so gas heavy, the bulk of my army will consist of zlots, a unit which it is pretty pointless to EMP in the first place, but if you want to waste it, be my guest. However, losing because you EMP'ed the lots isn't a valid argument in a discussion regarding wheter or not EMP is too easy to use for it's effectiveness - it is simply bad play.
On June 30 2010 15:16 Neptuneajax wrote: I don't know if this has been suggested in this post cuz I only had 5 minutes to read the OP.
Why not try going quite a lot of sentries and hallucinating a bunch of HT's. I bet there aren't a lot of Terran's who would give up the oppurtunity to EMP a grouped up bunch of 4-5 HT's. Once they've blown it, move your real HT's in and storm away.
Also I keeping Ht's in warp prisms a la reavers in shuttles to protect them and make them more mobile might work too
Hallucination is really an underuesed ability. I think a lot could be done with it, especially early game, and especially with it that low in the tech tree.
In a way it is ironic that one of the 'improvements' in the engine - namely the advanced pathfinding and unit clustering - will be the basis of a new counteracting skill. SC1: Try not to gets your units into a single file or your goons to bump into each other. SC2: Try to get your units into a single file or your stalkers to stay away from each other.
I think eventually this same problem will represent itself with fungal growth (and I think its the reason the lurker isn't here).
On June 30 2010 13:30 jerry507 wrote: Templar - 50/150/2 in 55s Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s
Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100
Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2
Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds
Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups.
Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well.
Most ridiculous post I've ever seen. Do you realise how strong a 100 damage radius 2 insta-nuke is? So if we were about to clash armies, and you EMP me, you expect me to run back and sit around for 42 seconds? Really? That defeats the entire purpose of timing pushes, and only makes your timing pushes that much more effective.
You're also ignoring the blindingly obvious fact that HTs cannot attack while Ghosts can. Ghosts also have Cloak, Nuke and Snipe whereas HTs have a skill that can't even reach the Ghost in time. And a skill the morph into arguably the most useless unit in the game.
There are essentially two situations you can come across EMP.
1) Late-game, Ghosts vs HTs.
This is generally a tossup based on skill, and pure dumb luck. Are the Ghosts cloaked? Does the Protoss have an Observer handy? Do the Ghosts get their shots off before the HTs feedback them? Can the Protoss player target the Ghosts in the crowd? Etc etc, blah blah blah, back and forth, EMP is OP this and Psi Storm is OP that. I personally don't have a problem with this.
2) Early-game, Ghosts vs absolutely no chance of HTs and you just have to take it up the tail-pipe.
Just compare the Gas costs of reaching these units:
And that's an HT without Psi Storm. An HT dedicated to just killing the Ghost. Add another 200 for that if you want to consider both units as equally useful.
If you consider equal gas income on both sides (which I think is a fair assumption) neither side is neglecting other, important gas-guzzling units you can run into situations like this:
Terran with a couple Medivacs (200), a couple of Ghosts (300), a couple of Marauders (50), Stim (100) and Conc shell (50) upgraded and a metric fuckton of Marines.
Units = 550 gas Tech = 150 gas Buildings = 325 gas Total = 1025 gas
Now, the REAL question here, is what can the Protoss get with a similar amount of gas and how does he spot this strategy when its all being built behind a wall?
Let's say 200 gas is spent on an Observer, just to spot this build. Let's also say we spot some Barracks pumping Marines and decide to get a few Sentries (300) and Stalkers (150) to compliment the Zealots were building with our minerals and we got Warp Gate tech (50). I think that number Sentries and Stalkers there is reasonable for a typical game.
So, we just spent 650 gas on those rudimentary units alone. That leaves us with 325 gas on Tier 2 units. At best, you'll get Zealot charge for 100 + 200 and maybe Ground armour through a Forge for another 100 later on, but because the nature of upgrades is you need to spend the gas early in order to use them in a push like this. If he starts marching out of his base with that simple ground army, COMPLETE WITH STIMS, I MIGHT ADD (getting Stims out of an already made Tech Lab is a tad easier than spending your last 300 gas waiting for a Council to finish and Charge to research), you might not even have those upgrades done in time.
Any hope of matching those Ghosts with an equal number of HTs is completely out of the window. Therefore, you just have to take it up the tailpipe. HTs are really only an option if the Terran sits on his ass for an exorbitant amount of time.
Personally, I think all this means that Ghosts need to go back to 200 gas and Stims back up to 150. Terran can build a stupid strong anti-Protoss infantry force with such a paltry amount of gas it boggles the mind.
Edit:
You can compare the minerals, too (assume the same amount spent on workers and supply):
The Terran can chuck a few more Marauders, or another Barracks in there (more likely, to create the kind of production you want for a timing push), no problem.
Its really THAT close a call between these two forces. If the Protoss even attempts to get HTs, he's probably going to get fucked, unless the Terran decides to play a campathon.
Not having high templar available in the early game against a ghost push isn't a big deal. Chargelots with some stalker/sentry support do just fine IF you flank the terran army. This takes some proactive scouting and army positioning, but it is doable.
I have to agree with Bibdy entirely.. I play Protoss almost exclusively, and have found that the rushed timing push of MM with the new fast stim upgrade and rushed ghosts is the situation where I struggle.
The late game Ghosts vs HT is not imbalanced... By the time I have HT out, I could also have any other combination of protoss unit, and I rely simply on my positioning and my play to defeat the terran player.
As far as I am concerned, the Terran stim timing pushing with a ghost or two is the only ghost balance problem that currently exists, though I do feel that it is quite substantial. I really don't know what the balance team was thinking with the stim upgrade cost buff...
To win against that, in my personal experiences (and I am by no means a "pro") I have to either a) completely outplay my opponent skill wise through better macro/micro b) use VERY early 2-3 gate aggression before it gets to that point c) somehow delay my opponents timing push long enough to get out colossi and kite their army well enough to avoid getting EMP's on the colossi
While it's not an impossible situation, it is an uphill battle, and I do feel that the cost of stims right now is a little ridiculous...
Also, to whoever suggested that being EMP'd is fine as long as you just back up and regen the shields has obviously never played Protoss.... or an opponent with enough skill to realize how crippling that is and push right in to kill the Protoss player, whose sentries are useless now, by the way.... Also, Terran mech can be repaired and medivacs can heal bio, so its not like protoss and zerg are the only ones who can recover health. If your marines get fungal growth'd its NO BIG DEAL right? just go heal them all! That argument is just completely ridiculous.
On July 01 2010 04:37 indczn wrote: stalker 50 gas warpgate 50 sentry 100 twilight 100 archives 200 2 archons 600. 4 warpgates and a ton of zealots(minerals permitting).
Scout, watchtowers, etc. Be ready to flank(1 archon w/ each group), or trap at ramp.
Progress into killing him, or teching to storm/amulet/charge, whichever first depending on his composition. Feedback if he tries dropping.
Expand if he turtles.
You still need to scout it, which is a 100 (Hallucination) or 200 (Observer) gas investment in itself, unless that's your standard opener.
And with that few Stalkers and Sentries, there's every likelihood you're going to get ploughed over by a simple M&M push, though I suppose you can pump some extras from your Warp Gates with all that spare gas you'll have accumulating as you save up for HTs.
You still have a horrendous shortage of Sentries and no Zealot charge, even if you do end up building that force. So he could just kite your ass to death.
On July 01 2010 04:37 indczn wrote: stalker 50 gas warpgate 50 sentry 100 twilight 100 archives 200 2 archons 600. 4 warpgates and a ton of zealots(minerals permitting).
Scout, watchtowers, etc. Be ready to flank(1 archon w/ each group), or trap at ramp.
Progress into killing him, or teching to storm/amulet/charge, whichever first depending on his composition. Feedback if he tries dropping.
Expand if he turtles.
I'd love to see a replay of this. My gut reaction is that a terran would mow down your zealots without charge. But hey, I'd be happy to be wrong.
On July 01 2010 04:37 indczn wrote: stalker 50 gas warpgate 50 sentry 100 twilight 100 archives 200 2 archons 600. 4 warpgates and a ton of zealots(minerals permitting).
Scout, watchtowers, etc. Be ready to flank(1 archon w/ each group), or trap at ramp.
Progress into killing him, or teching to storm/amulet/charge, whichever first depending on his composition. Feedback if he tries dropping.
This topic has been revived countless times since Beta started. The same arguments more or less stupid have been said on both sides why EMP or psy is too powerful and should be nerfed.
I can clearly see some TvP where EMP gave a winning advantage to Terran as much as I saw psy getting an advantage to Protoss. Playing Protoss this ability sure is something I'm afraid of especially early game... but I don't see how people claim this is imbalanced based on a very narrow minded perspective. Balance is about races not abilitys, some things are designed to be an advantage for a race against another. Terran have EMP yes, they also got PDD and other good stuff... Protoss have psy, warp ins and other good stuff too. Is one EMP better than a single storm ? Yes probably, does it means the match-up is imbalanced ? Not in my opinion. Protoss has other advantage to exploit in other area of the game.
This game is not about a 200 - 200 army battle after 20 minutes, it's a lot more complex and for myself can clearly see some advantages to Protoss.
Maybe in 4months TvP will be clearly defined as imbalanced when this precise build and strategy will come up and give a 90% victory to top protoss or terran. Meanwhile... this seems pretty even to me, and especially too soon to cry for imbalance.
On July 01 2010 05:40 Smurfz wrote: Also: it may be hard to notice, but EMP does have a missile with a traveling time.
Stalkers with blink CAN dodge EMP with excellent timing. I've managed to do it in relatively small battles
Was it intentional or were you Blinking anyway and just happened to avoid it? I doubt anyone is going to be pulling that off on a regular basis in a reactive manner. Its not like spotting a Hunter Seeker and simply running the whole force away to avoid it.
On July 01 2010 04:41 Bibdy wrote: You still need to scout it, which is a 100 (Hallucination) or 200 (Observer) gas investment in itself, unless that's your standard opener.
And with that few Stalkers and Sentries, there's every likelihood you're going to get ploughed over by a simple M&M push, though I suppose you can pump some extras from your Warp Gates with all that spare gas you'll have accumulating as you save up for HTs.
You still have a horrendous shortage of Sentries and no Zealot charge, even if you do end up building that force. So he could just kite your ass to death.
It's my standard PVT opening. Don't remember losing to any composition of early bio once i got comfortable with it. Some games vs MM were admittedly close, but, against early ghosts/emp, it usually wasn't even close.
I'm not very good with stalkers without blink. I don't find them very strong, and they take bonus damage from marauders, and get slowed the same as anything else. the sentry is nice for guardian sheild vs MM, or force field to delay at the ramp if needed.
The goal of this opening is to primarily get to usable templar and then charge, fast. Once I have storm/charge, if the terran is still on bio, it should be lopsided, in my favor, regardless of what he adds to his army. My infrastructure is ready at that point to pump units.
As for kiting, let him kite. I'm not trying to kill him now, unless possible. Zealots are strong enough. keep him occupied until archons show up.
Keep in mind, some of the benefits of archons. 1. tanks - 350 sheilds is alot of damage to absorb. Emp hurts, but takes 3 to cripple, 4 to kill, but he should only have 2 ghosts worth. 2. quick - not quite as fast as stalkers, but not zealot slow, makes his kiting more difficult. 3. Faster tech than storm. Storm is too slow to hold any decent timing push off. All the gas is wasted for storm if you die before its done researching. 4. mineral light = zealot heavy, or earlier safe expansion. 5. Timings work out pretty well with zealot. 1 zealot + 1 templar is slightly slower than 2 stalkers/sentries. and alternates gas unit, mineral build. 6. Bonus damage is heavily in favor of the toss. Bio bonus from archon, no marauder armor bonus.
Though, they are strong early, they are only to tide me over until storm/charge which is a much stronger composition, its just too slow to tech rush to. This is how i get there.
On July 01 2010 04:46 xDaunt wrote: I'd love to see a replay of this. My gut reaction is that a terran would mow down your zealots without charge. But hey, I'd be happy to be wrong.
I wish i could provide a replay. My Raid failed a day before 1st beta ended. I know i have no credibility w/out it, no name recognition, no post count, but, please try it when beta returns. All i can say is the only matchup i have a good win percent is terran, (pvp and pvz are less than 50%).
alright... lets nerf the hell out of brood lords, cause as a terran, as soon as my opponent got them, i was screwed, when we were sitting on even bases, and same supply armies.
i have seen whole Bio balls fall to 2-3 storms, when ghosts were present, their emp's hit the wrong group of templar and were also TOO LATE
emp is the counter to storm, that much is true, but storm can be utilized so much better than emp, you can even use it as a temporary (very temporary) wall, like FF's, and you can back up to recharge shields, and for those who say, but what if he emp's before that... well micro better, or suck it up, this is all from beta play, just shift your strategy so that it allows you to deal with it, for both sides. stop screaming for a nerf or buff, play with the game you got
On July 01 2010 05:34 rezoacken wrote: Maybe in 4months TvP will be clearly defined as imbalanced when this precise build and strategy will come up and give a 90% victory to top protoss or terran. Meanwhile... this seems pretty even to me, and especially too soon to cry for imbalance.
If the imbalance that a skill adds to the general matchup is less than 5% it's not as obvious as that. Even broodwar i can say with almost 100% confidence it's not perfectly balanced. What if some unit got 5, 1 HP, or even 0.5HP increase, who could say it was more balanced or not? That's probably going to affect less than 0.1% of the matchup, and no one would be able to say in which direction (balancing or imbalancing) it went, yet it clearly changes something. Balance is when the matchup is 50-50, and thats just a number, compared to the infinity of the numbers than surround it. Everything should be thought of has imbalanced. It's very unlikely they managed to put anything at 50-50. Most imbalances are so small though, it's hard to notice, and for all purposes we can round them up to balanced.
At this time, imbalances are not as obvious as the start, so people have to just analyze suspicious details, and see if there's any reason behind them. Also at this point, you can't ask for "proof that x is imbalanced", only for traces that something is a little broken. If people clearly say they have difficulty dealing with x, that could be something or not. When imbalances are below [5-0[% people might not even notice they have to put that value of effort more than the other race. That's why if so many people start complaining it should be even more suspicious.
On July 01 2010 04:41 Bibdy wrote: You still need to scout it, which is a 100 (Hallucination) or 200 (Observer) gas investment in itself, unless that's your standard opener.
And with that few Stalkers and Sentries, there's every likelihood you're going to get ploughed over by a simple M&M push, though I suppose you can pump some extras from your Warp Gates with all that spare gas you'll have accumulating as you save up for HTs.
You still have a horrendous shortage of Sentries and no Zealot charge, even if you do end up building that force. So he could just kite your ass to death.
It's my standard PVT opening. Don't remember losing to any composition of early bio once i got comfortable with it. Some games vs MM were admittedly close, but, against early ghosts/emp, it usually wasn't even close.
I'm not very good with stalkers without blink. I don't find them very strong, and they take bonus damage from marauders, and get slowed the same as anything else. the sentry is nice for guardian sheild vs MM, or force field to delay at the ramp if needed.
The goal of this opening is to primarily get to usable templar and then charge, fast. Once I have storm/charge, if the terran is still on bio, it should be lopsided, in my favor, regardless of what he adds to his army. My infrastructure is ready at that point to pump units.
As for kiting, let him kite. I'm not trying to kill him now, unless possible. Zealots are strong enough. keep him occupied until archons show up.
Keep in mind, some of the benefits of archons. 1. tanks - 350 sheilds is alot of damage to absorb. Emp hurts, but takes 3 to cripple, 4 to kill, but he should only have 2 ghosts worth. 2. quick - not quite as fast as stalkers, but not zealot slow, makes his kiting more difficult. 3. Faster tech than storm. Storm is too slow to hold any decent timing push off. All the gas is wasted for storm if you die before its done researching. 4. mineral light = zealot heavy, or earlier safe expansion. 5. Timings work out pretty well with zealot. 1 zealot + 1 templar is slightly slower than 2 stalkers/sentries. and alternates gas unit, mineral build. 6. Bonus damage is heavily in favor of the toss. Bio bonus from archon, no marauder armor bonus.
Though, they are strong early, they are only to tide me over until storm/charge which is a much stronger composition, its just too slow to tech rush to. This is how i get there.
On July 01 2010 04:46 xDaunt wrote: I'd love to see a replay of this. My gut reaction is that a terran would mow down your zealots without charge. But hey, I'd be happy to be wrong.
I wish i could provide a replay. My Raid failed a day before 1st beta ended. I know i have no credibility w/out it, no name recognition, no post count, but, please try it when beta returns. All i can say is the only matchup i have a good win percent is terran, (pvp and pvz are less than 50%).
Yeeesh. Sounds scary against things like early MM pushes and Cloaked Banshee rushes. And that's a LOT of gas invested in two units that can get kited and killed without doing a lick of damage. They can easily have Stims by that point, which just makes your life hell if you don't have a good number of Sentries to prevent kiting, mitigate damage and split blob up.
I'm going to work with my standard build (fast Observer), switching to Zealot Charge if I spot the build with the Observer first. If that fails too often, I'll give this a shot.
On July 01 2010 04:41 Bibdy wrote: You still need to scout it, which is a 100 (Hallucination) or 200 (Observer) gas investment in itself, unless that's your standard opener.
And with that few Stalkers and Sentries, there's every likelihood you're going to get ploughed over by a simple M&M push, though I suppose you can pump some extras from your Warp Gates with all that spare gas you'll have accumulating as you save up for HTs.
You still have a horrendous shortage of Sentries and no Zealot charge, even if you do end up building that force. So he could just kite your ass to death.
It's my standard PVT opening. Don't remember losing to any composition of early bio once i got comfortable with it. Some games vs MM were admittedly close, but, against early ghosts/emp, it usually wasn't even close.
I'm not very good with stalkers without blink. I don't find them very strong, and they take bonus damage from marauders, and get slowed the same as anything else. the sentry is nice for guardian sheild vs MM, or force field to delay at the ramp if needed.
The goal of this opening is to primarily get to usable templar and then charge, fast. Once I have storm/charge, if the terran is still on bio, it should be lopsided, in my favor, regardless of what he adds to his army. My infrastructure is ready at that point to pump units.
As for kiting, let him kite. I'm not trying to kill him now, unless possible. Zealots are strong enough. keep him occupied until archons show up.
Keep in mind, some of the benefits of archons. 1. tanks - 350 sheilds is alot of damage to absorb. Emp hurts, but takes 3 to cripple, 4 to kill, but he should only have 2 ghosts worth. 2. quick - not quite as fast as stalkers, but not zealot slow, makes his kiting more difficult. 3. Faster tech than storm. Storm is too slow to hold any decent timing push off. All the gas is wasted for storm if you die before its done researching. 4. mineral light = zealot heavy, or earlier safe expansion. 5. Timings work out pretty well with zealot. 1 zealot + 1 templar is slightly slower than 2 stalkers/sentries. and alternates gas unit, mineral build. 6. Bonus damage is heavily in favor of the toss. Bio bonus from archon, no marauder armor bonus.
Though, they are strong early, they are only to tide me over until storm/charge which is a much stronger composition, its just too slow to tech rush to. This is how i get there.
On July 01 2010 04:46 xDaunt wrote: I'd love to see a replay of this. My gut reaction is that a terran would mow down your zealots without charge. But hey, I'd be happy to be wrong.
I wish i could provide a replay. My Raid failed a day before 1st beta ended. I know i have no credibility w/out it, no name recognition, no post count, but, please try it when beta returns. All i can say is the only matchup i have a good win percent is terran, (pvp and pvz are less than 50%).
My one concern about this build is that, without an observer or phoenix, you're left fairly blind to what the terran is doing. Assuming that the build does well against a ghost push, how does it do against other builds? For example:
1) what if the terran fast expands? 2) what if the terran goes for a tank build? 3) what if the terran goes heavy MMM? 4) what if the terran goes banshees? 5) how are you able to recognize these transitions/builds before it's too late to adjust your strategy?
P.S. Don't worry about the lack of replays or lack of name recognition.
I'ma suggest a tactic to deal with EMPs, but this is from a guy with minimal knowledge of Protoss.
A high templar + chargelot army using chokes to their advantage? If they are to stay at a choke, the ghosts would either be at the back where HTs can storm the front of a bio ball without getting EMPed. Should the ghosts be at the front or middle, the chargelots should cut through the bio ball quite easily if the terran doesn't EMP the lots. If he does, you should send in your HTs to storm everything. Spreading the HTs out should help against any EMPs the ghosts have left and you'll get a few storms off.
Yeeesh. Sounds scary against things like early MM pushes and Cloaked Banshee rushes. And that's a LOT of gas invested in two units that can get kited and killed without doing a lick of damage. They can easily have Stims by that point, which just makes your life hell if you don't have a good number of Sentries to prevent kiting, mitigate damage and split blob up.
I'm going to work with my standard build (fast Observer), switching to Zealot Charge if I spot the build with the Observer first. If that fails too often, I'll give this a shot.
It can be at times against MM, but what build doesn't have problems vs something.
You should be able to get a feel for what the terran might be doing from scouting, first probe, scout, then stalker, You should be able to get a good feel for what hes going for based on what you see. If somethings missing, get the robo up for the sake of being safe.
The terran is going to use gas on, MM, ghosts, tanks, banshees, or fast raven. (thor?). Of those, banshees are the biggest threat, but, also, easiest to deal with if prepared, in my opinion, and robotics is any good against them for the observer. Still have to rely on gateway units.
Once you get storm/charge, you units become so much for effective, i find its useful to get them as fast as possible, and the archon is the best way on the tech-tree to get there.
On July 01 2010 07:23 Calamity wrote: I'ma suggest a tactic to deal with EMPs, but this is from a guy with minimal knowledge of Protoss.
A high templar + chargelot army using chokes to their advantage? If they are to stay at a choke, the ghosts would either be at the back where HTs can storm the front of a bio ball without getting EMPed. Should the ghosts be at the front or middle, the chargelots should cut through the bio ball quite easily if the terran doesn't EMP the lots. If he does, you should send in your HTs to storm everything. Spreading the HTs out should help against any EMPs the ghosts have left and you'll get a few storms off.
How does it look?
Expensive.
Early pushes from Bio Ball + Ghost are a much bigger problem than EMP in general.
Anyone who truly thinks that EMP vs Psi Storm is imbalanced one way or the other after both sides have an expansion set up and the game hits the 10:00 mark, is out of their mind. Trouble is, Protoss take a LOT longer to field HTs and Psi Storm than Terrans take to field EMP.
On July 01 2010 07:13 xDaunt wrote: My one concern about this build is that, without an observer or phoenix, you're left fairly blind to what the terran is doing. Assuming that the build does well against a ghost push, how does it do against other builds? For example:
1) what if the terran fast expands? 2) what if the terran goes for a tank build? 3) what if the terran goes heavy MMM? 4) what if the terran goes banshees? 5) how are you able to recognize these transitions/builds before it's too late to adjust your strategy?
P.S. Don't worry about the lack of replays or lack of name recognition.
1) what if the terran fast expands? cut zealots, expand myself. 2) what if the terran goes for a tank build? do you mean tank+marine, or heavy mech? Against tank/marine push, i won pretty easily. Tanks function as marauders, but less mobile. Against mech, 3) what if the terran goes heavy MMM? Not much different than MM, typical follow up, while im getting templar feedback/storm. If hes running from storm, hes not shooting my zealots. Yeah, i know zealots run into storm. If hes dropping ,you have warpgates and amuleted templar to defend/feedback. 4) what if the terran goes banshees? Cry. Joking. Hopefully im aware enough to recognize hes not using any gas on anything else. Honestly, i saw this so rarely on the ladder, I'm not entirely positive on the timings. The only time i did, i caught the early gasses and went robo. I'd have to check the timings to say anything more definitive, other than this would be the weakest spot. 5) how are you able to recognize these transitions/builds before it's too late to adjust your strategy? 1st stalker scout tells alot. The build handles early ghost, MM, marine tank, and fast raven doesn't break it. I have alot of warpgates, so unit composition is adaptable.
I do need more playtime to work out the kinks, not to mention any patch changes.
But seriously, juking and uber micro is your best bet. Or sac a few temps in front to try to trick them and retreat those and morph them into Archons (SAVE THE LULZ).
There's no way a protoss player should not be able hold off a stim marine ghost push before they get colossi out. By the time the Brat_oK style stimed Marine Medivac ghost push is knocking on your door, its like 9+ minutes into the game, more than enough time for colossi tech. If anything, you'll be pushing into his base/preventing an expo with colossi before he can build sufficient vikings at this stage. Keep in mind, it takes quite a few vikings to snipe off well microed colossi with stalker support. Even when a critical amount of vilkings are acheived, it still won't prevent the colossi from melting marines in a few lazers. Marines vs colossi is an ongoing problem, not something a handful of vikings auto fixes. Vikings offer a way to fight an army that would otherwise streamroll a marine-heavy Terran, but does not always come out on top. That would be my advice for dealing with brat_ok's generic build. I'm not really interested in arguing with people who make it their business to try prove there's nothing you can do vs ghosts anymore.
Ghosts don't magically appear in a terrans bio army. They require a rax with tech, a ghost academy, and a lot of gas. Any half decent toss player should be able to predict a ghost build, (double gas, no factory units? Heavy bias towards rax w/ tech lab? No reapers?) and actually scout it for sure fairly easily (assuming it isn't a proxy academy). And any decent toss build will set you up to scout out terran's base: hallucinated phoenix with mass gate, actual phoenix with a stargate build, or early observer or warp prism with a robo build.
The most common trend I see with complaining tosses is a complete unwillingness to adapt their builds and timing to a terran's ghost build, not at all taking advantage of the inherit weaknesses of a ghost build. "Omg HTs destroy my pure hydra army so imba!!" is basically the vibe I'm getting here.
Mass gateway builds: timing push before they get enough ghosts with emp up, or mass chargelot with HT/DT support (DTs abuse the lack of terran mobile detection) Stargate builds: lift and kill with phoenix Robo build: Warp prism drop/warp in harass into colossus
Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
Ugh. At least make an attempt to understand the issue before you post something like this.
On July 02 2010 01:06 Looky wrote: protoss can start with so many openings against terran. Void rays, proxy, dts, etc. Emp doesnt imbalance the whole match up.
And terrans cant open in various ways vs protoss ?
fyi terrans have the most openings than every other race by far at this stage , the only viable opening vs terrans as toss is mass stalkers - sentries everything else is so easily counter
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
Ugh. At least make an attempt to understand the issue before you post something like this.
Feel free to explain to me what I've missed. What I see are a bunch of players saying that emp is op because they have no proper response to it. I just posted a couple o comments on that (I hope you noticed the irony) and asked you to state to me why emp is so op again.
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
Ugh. At least make an attempt to understand the issue before you post something like this.
Feel free to explain to me what I've missed. What I see are a bunch of players saying that emp is op because they have no proper response to it. I just posted a couple o comments on that (I hope you noticed the irony) and asked you to state to me why emp is so op again.
Your answer doesn't contribute in the slightest.
Edit: typos.
I don't think anyone is going to disagree with your characterization of many of the posts in this thread. However, I think most people are going to disagree with your point that EMP is not overpowered because "EMP is more expensive" than storm and templar tech. Yes, ghosts cost 100 minerals more than high templar. However, and as is discussed above by a number of posters, this difference in mineral cost is inconsequential, especially when one considers the difference in gas cost to get EMP versus templar tech and storm. The real problem with ghosts and EMP is that a terran can field a unit that rapes all protoss units with an AoE attack before the protoss even has an opportunity to develop a particularly good counter. Is it unbeatable? No, of course not. However, the advantage that the terran has is one that will be decisive if the protoss makes one mistake with troop positioning and micromanagement in battle. That's the problem with EMP as it stands.
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
Ugh. At least make an attempt to understand the issue before you post something like this.
Feel free to explain to me what I've missed. What I see are a bunch of players saying that emp is op because they have no proper response to it. I just posted a couple o comments on that (I hope you noticed the irony) and asked you to state to me why emp is so op again.
Your answer doesn't contribute in the slightest.
Edit: typos.
I don't think anyone is going to disagree with your characterization of many of the posts in this thread. However, I think most people are going to disagree with your point that EMP is not overpowered because "EMP is more expensive" than storm and templar tech. Yes, ghosts cost 100 minerals more than high templar. However, and as is discussed above by a number of posters, this difference in mineral cost is inconsequential, especially when one considers the difference in gas cost to get EMP versus templar tech and storm. The real problem with ghosts and EMP is that a terran can field a unit that rapes all protoss units with an AoE attack before the protoss even has an opportunity to develop a particularly good counter. Is it unbeatable? No, of course not. However, the advantage that the terran has is one that will be decisive if the protoss makes one mistake with troop positioning and micromanagement in battle. That's the problem with EMP as it stands.
It is indeed true that templar tech comes later and is more expensve then ghost tech, that is undeniable. However, once it comes it is much more powerful, and investing heavy in ghosts from beginning (As you said a terran could do) will result in an inferior army easily ripped apart by some cheap zealots. That is just my opinion however, 150/150 + Ghost academy is quite an investment early on anyways, and an emp will only cause those zealots 50 shield dmg.
The way I see it. . .It's the same with "Terran mech is imba cause running hydras into it results in me losing," and other things of that nature. I'd imagine that people complained the same way with Dark Swarm and other things like that. You just have to work around them.
On July 02 2010 06:02 MythicalMage wrote: The way I see it. . .It's the same with "Terran mech is imba cause running hydras into it results in me losing," and other things of that nature. I'd imagine that people complained the same way with Dark Swarm and other things like that. You just have to work around them.
There's a big difference between being forced to work around something in the early-mid game being forced to work around something in the late game.
On July 02 2010 06:02 MythicalMage wrote: The way I see it. . .It's the same with "Terran mech is imba cause running hydras into it results in me losing," and other things of that nature. I'd imagine that people complained the same way with Dark Swarm and other things like that. You just have to work around them.
There's a big difference between being forced to work around something in the early-mid game being forced to work around something in the late game.
I'll give you that. But a ghost is a major investment early game. Early zealot pressure would be effective, as would early pheonix pressure. Additionally, you can sort of avoid it by spreading out units and retreating. If a fair number of your sentries don't get EMP'd, just FF and retreat. If they do, then hope you can still retreat. >>. Actually, Blink Stalkers might be a good counter as blink doesn't have an energy cost, just a CC, but that's more midgame ish.
On July 02 2010 06:02 MythicalMage wrote: The way I see it. . .It's the same with "Terran mech is imba cause running hydras into it results in me losing," and other things of that nature. I'd imagine that people complained the same way with Dark Swarm and other things like that. You just have to work around them.
There's a big difference between being forced to work around something in the early-mid game being forced to work around something in the late game.
I'll give you that. But a ghost is a major investment early game. Early zealot pressure would be effective, as would early pheonix pressure. Additionally, you can sort of avoid it by spreading out units and retreating. If a fair number of your sentries don't get EMP'd, just FF and retreat. If they do, then hope you can still retreat. >>. Actually, Blink Stalkers might be a good counter as blink doesn't have an energy cost, just a CC, but that's more midgame ish.
Ghosts are not expensive investments. A colossus is an expensive investment. A high templar is an expensive investment. Ghosts aren't even close.
More importantly, ghosts are not risky investments in TvP. In fact, as multiple terrans have shown during the beta, ghost/marine openings are remarkably durable against ANY protoss opening. Sure, the terran may not be able to go on the offensive right away against some protoss openings, but the terran can still very easily bunker up and take his natural with a ghost/marine opening.
So because it works it's imbalanced? I don't catch your meaning. >>. I, personally, have never seen it against early VR or Phoenix pressure. I don't think I've ever seen it against early zealot pressure, even. It just seems to me that people are assuming that because what they're doing right now doesn't beat it, it means it can't be beat. There are tons of unexplored options out there, early chargelots, early blink stalkers, things of that nature. I'd also like to see a Phoenix timing push against a marine ghost build. He may be able to EMP your army or your phoenixes, but he likely can't EMP both with the limited shots, and with a soon to be lifted ghost. If what you're doing doesn't work, it doesn't mean something's imbalanced, necessarily. It just means you haven't figured out what you need to do to beat it.
On July 02 2010 07:22 MythicalMage wrote: So because it works it's imbalanced? I don't catch your meaning. >>. I, personally, have never seen it against early VR or Phoenix pressure. I don't think I've ever seen it against early zealot pressure, even. It just seems to me that people are assuming that because what they're doing right now doesn't beat it, it means it can't be beat. There are tons of unexplored options out there, early chargelots, early blink stalkers, things of that nature. I'd also like to see a Phoenix timing push against a marine ghost build. He may be able to EMP your army or your phoenixes, but he likely can't EMP both with the limited shots, and with a soon to be lifted ghost. If what you're doing doesn't work, it doesn't mean something's imbalanced, necessarily. It just means you haven't figured out what you need to do to beat it.
If you'd read some of the earlier posts in thread (even those that have been posted just recently), you'd find answers to everything in your post. For example, do you really think that no one has tried early chargelots?
Every protoss knows how to beat a ghost/marine opening. That's the not the issue. The issue is the degree of difficulty in beating it. "Imbalance" means more than just "Race A autoloses to Race B if Race B does X."
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
I laugh at the fact you didn't include the fact it takes 2 tech buildings (Twilight Council, Templar Archives) as well as the fact you have to upgrade to get storm. You obviously never touched Protoss at all. Also note that you only need about 1 or 2 ghost while toss needs a lot more templars since their pretty useless if they can't storm.
The Terran reaction time thing made me laugh.
Splitting Casters, yes it's a solution, but the fact that they move slowly and tend to clump up easily make it not hard but a bit difficult to split up the casters when moving the toss army to engage the terran army. Splitting up casters is more of a way to prepare and wait for the terran to engage you sort of thing.
To all those that play Terran and argue that Toss have it easy, try playing Toss for once. To all those that play Toss and argue that Terran have it easy, try playing Terran for once. To all the others that haven't played either of the races, try playing them both for once.
We should wait until beta phase 2 comes out to see if they made any changes instead of arguing. Plus "discussing" about EMP would be better than trying to prove that's imba or not.
My thoughts is that EMP should get the energy cost raised or needs to be researched in the academy for 100/100 or 150/150. EMP is quite good against most toss units and wouldn't mind paying for it.
I said it in the beginning of the thread, I said it in the middle and I'll repeat it again here at the end of the thread:
Make EMP a projectile.
This will increase the micro on both sides and do away with the "click - herp derp all your mana are belong to me" which is the gripe of most of the more sane posters. It would also make it easier to counter the early EMP whilst the later is less effected due to more attention requiring actions being present at lategame than earlygame.
The 2 above points is speaking from a merely gaming pov, plenty of other arguments like increased watchability and equal pay for equal work (which is one of blizzards stated "balancing" measures) are 2 other VERY important points.
With that said, I do agree that it will be interesting to see if they have done anything about it when phase 2 hits, and until then it is hardly worth discussing this more since pretty much every thinkable argument has already been presented.
How about making it so it doesn't take away all the energy of units. Like how emp no longer takes away all shields, why not set it so one emp can only take away 50 or 75 energy and maybe increasing the AOE a bit to make it a bit more fair for the Terran player. Since the main problem of emp is rendering templars completely useless.
On July 02 2010 07:22 MythicalMage wrote: So because it works it's imbalanced? I don't catch your meaning. >>. I, personally, have never seen it against early VR or Phoenix pressure. I don't think I've ever seen it against early zealot pressure, even. It just seems to me that people are assuming that because what they're doing right now doesn't beat it, it means it can't be beat. There are tons of unexplored options out there, early chargelots, early blink stalkers, things of that nature. I'd also like to see a Phoenix timing push against a marine ghost build. He may be able to EMP your army or your phoenixes, but he likely can't EMP both with the limited shots, and with a soon to be lifted ghost. If what you're doing doesn't work, it doesn't mean something's imbalanced, necessarily. It just means you haven't figured out what you need to do to beat it.
If you'd read some of the earlier posts in thread (even those that have been posted just recently), you'd find answers to everything in your post. For example, do you really think that no one has tried early chargelots?
Every protoss knows how to beat a ghost/marine opening. That's the not the issue. The issue is the degree of difficulty in beating it. "Imbalance" means more than just "Race A autoloses to Race B if Race B does X."
Really now? Because as far as I know running your medic marine into dark swarm caused you to automatically lose. Same with running your medic marine into lurkers. I'm just trying to open up some unthought of ideas.
We should wait until beta phase 2 comes out to see if they made any changes instead of arguing. Plus "discussing" about EMP would be better than trying to prove that's imba or not.
As far as I know, Balancing is done, and phase 2 is just for B.Net stuff.
My thoughts is that EMP should get the energy cost raised or needs to be researched in the academy for 100/100 or 150/150. EMP is quite good against most toss units and wouldn't mind paying for it.
The strength of EMP is the ability to get it out quick, and even as a counter to DTs. Increasing the cost of the energy, however, seems completely reasonable. Increasing it to say 100 wouldn't break the game, but it would slow down pushes a bit.
Make EMP a projectile.
EMP is a projectile. A fast moving one, but it is one. I'm even pretty sure you can FB before the EMP hits and take the Mana before the EMP mana drain happens on the Ghost. It's not a long animation, but it is a projectile.
How about making it so it doesn't take away all the energy of units. Like how emp no longer takes away all shields, why not set it so one emp can only take away 50 or 75 energy and maybe increasing the AOE a bit to make it a bit more fair for the Terran player. Since the main problem of emp is rendering templars completely useless.
That seems reasonable. Definitely don't take away the shield amount, otherwise it'd be useless late game. But lowering the energy amount to say 100 or so seems decent.
On July 02 2010 07:11 xDaunt wrote: Ghosts are not expensive investments. A colossus is an expensive investment. A high templar is an expensive investment. Ghosts aren't even close.
More importantly, ghosts are not risky investments in TvP. In fact, as multiple terrans have shown during the beta, ghost/marine openings are remarkably durable against ANY protoss opening. Sure, the terran may not be able to go on the offensive right away against some protoss openings, but the terran can still very easily bunker up and take his natural with a ghost/marine opening.
You're absolutely wrong about this. Ghosts are incredibly expensive for T during the early game. Not only do you have to sacrifice gas to A: get the ghost academy and B: get the ghost, you also sacrifice TIME. you can't build any marauders for 2-3 production cycles. also, that ghost has to sit there for awhile just to get off one EMP. adding a ghost in early doesn't automatically make your marine force able to withstand a huge gateway rush.
When you're basically -1 tech lab, -1 rax early game, your forces are significantly reduced. it's incredibly risky and as T you're banking on being able to just hold off a toss push until you can get a few EMPs saved up, maybe an upgrade or 2 form the tech lab (also much more costly when going for ghosts now) before you can push out/expand.
Also, ghosts just can't be massed the way templar can later on. There's a point where toss is vulnerable to EMP, but this is a small window. Early game, toss is advantaged in terms of map control. Late game, depending on a number of variables, toss can have a clear advantage. Map control for toss, I would argue, is much more difficult against terran mech than a bio/emp build (which relies more on mobility than control). As far as I see it, terran has a window to move out with a push and try and gain some traction after the early game. If he is able to contain/damage the toss, he can turn these gains into a victory. There's nothing wrong with this kind of a match-up. I find it to be one of the more enjoyable ones, actually, as a random player.
On July 02 2010 07:40 xDaunt wrote: Every protoss knows how to beat a ghost/marine opening. That's the not the issue. The issue is the degree of difficulty in beating it. "Imbalance" means more than just "Race A autoloses to Race B if Race B does X."
You could say the same thing about void rays. Toss players can just 1+a until the void ray is charged, terran needs tremendous viking/marine micro in order to fend it off. If the terran messes up and lets the void rays charge up, he's in for a lot of punishment.
I wouldn't say void rays are imba. They are hard for a T with little micro to fend off. And I would say the same if you think of a toss player against ghosts.
uuuuuh? how do you expect a zealot army to break through a wall of buildings and still have enough punch to kill the ranged units inside that can kite you or hide behind a wall of scvs?
------
Seriously don't understand why emp doesn't require a research to cast. Make it 50/50 but the delay would be sufficient to give protoss a decent chance to tech to something that can deal with MMG on equal terms.
It blows my mind that this thread is still going. Not only that, but when I read the latest 2 pages or so, I saw all of the same exact arguments as the first ~6 pages including people's pipe dreams of what they wish EMP would cost. IF Bliz ever decided that EMP was imba as it is, they'll figure out their own way to adjust it. Stop wasting space in this thread with suggestions.
To prove that EMP is imbalanced, you would have to show that it is almost always the best use of the time, resources, and APM that it takes to utilize it over other strategies (like old roaches pretty much were), and that it pushes the win/loss ratio of the match-up too far into Terran's favor. When going EMP against Protoss becomes the "only logical choice" rather than just being "a good idea usually", then maybe you can cry IMBA and Momma-Blizzard can come and make it all better (by their own means, not yours).
This is objectivity. This is Science. Stop with all of this anecdotal bullshit, and mostly, stop this redundant repetition.
On July 02 2010 15:57 Sylvr wrote: Stop with all of this anecdotal bullshit, and mostly, stop this redundant repetition.
Well, considering that you haven't actually given any evidence/statistics and are commenting on a specific thread, I'd say your post was quite anecdotal. Also, "redundant repetition" stands out as one of the better colloquialisms I've heard in awhile.
I think the tone in this thread's gotten a bit stale...at the least, can't we all agree that beta withdrawal is starting to set in?? :/
On July 02 2010 15:57 Sylvr wrote: It blows my mind that this thread is still going. Not only that, but when I read the latest 2 pages or so, I saw all of the same exact arguments as the first ~6 pages including people's pipe dreams of what they wish EMP would cost. IF Bliz ever decided that EMP was imba as it is, they'll figure out their own way to adjust it. Stop wasting space in this thread with suggestions.
To prove that EMP is imbalanced, you would have to show that it is almost always the best use of the time, resources, and APM that it takes to utilize it over other strategies (like old roaches pretty much were), and that it pushes the win/loss ratio of the match-up too far into Terran's favor. When going EMP against Protoss becomes the "only logical choice" rather than just being "a good idea usually", then maybe you can cry IMBA and Momma-Blizzard can come and make it all better (by their own means, not yours).
This is objectivity. This is Science. Stop with all of this anecdotal bullshit, and mostly, stop this redundant repetition.
Sorry but that's ridiculous. At this point it's very hard to prove anything on the imbalance topic. Science is nice but it's not easy. Let me ask you something on the order you're asking everyone on this thread, so maybe then you'll understand how ridiculous (but noble) is what you asked:
Prove us that increasing zealot speed by 0.05 will balance TvP. I'm pretty sure that unless you're a top mathematician (and in that case i ask you to please go treat more urgent matters, use your great brain in more useful things) there are just too many variables for you to be able to come here in and present us with an infalible proof. No one can't ask for anyone for proof at this point. Besides, you should know that theories are a major part of science as well, and that no good scientist ever leaves a suspicious one untouched, even if he can't prove it, maybe he can disprove it - generally easier -, which so far, on this thread no one was able to.
By the way "To prove that EMP is imbalanced, you would have to show that it is almost always the best use of the time, resources, and APM that it takes to utilize it over other strategies (like old roaches pretty much were), and that it pushes the win/loss ratio of the match-up too far into Terran's favor. "
This is false. To prove that EMP is imbalanced, one would only need to prove it would go as far as giving the T a 0.00001% edge over the protoss, if the matchup was 50% and above for T - 50% and below P. The imbalances that are totally obvious to everyone are over. That's material that the first patches dealt with. Now we're left with smaller imbalances, that can't be proven that easily, but just like evolution theory until a few time ago, people have damn good reasons to believe they're true.
Does 100 damage to shields and drains all energy to units in the targeted area. Cloaked units hit by EMP Round are revealed for a short time.
they are like portable siege tanks that also drain energy, cloak, detect DT and are healed by medivacs. they work well with stimmed marines who cost no gas, and you can upgrade them together.
if blizzard doesn't change emp, i wouldn't want to be protoss against terran.
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better.
Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s
Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around.
I laugh at the fact you didn't include the fact it takes 2 tech buildings (Twilight Council, Templar Archives) as well as the fact you have to upgrade to get storm. You obviously never touched Protoss at all. Also note that you only need about 1 or 2 ghost while toss needs a lot more templars since their pretty useless if they can't storm.
The Terran reaction time thing made me laugh.
Splitting Casters, yes it's a solution, but the fact that they move slowly and tend to clump up easily make it not hard but a bit difficult to split up the casters when moving the toss army to engage the terran army. Splitting up casters is more of a way to prepare and wait for the terran to engage you sort of thing.
To all those that play Terran and argue that Toss have it easy, try playing Toss for once. To all those that play Toss and argue that Terran have it easy, try playing Terran for once. To all the others that haven't played either of the races, try playing them both for once.
You didn't notice the irony? Well it's there. Also notice that I never claimed to have all the arguments in the post, hence I wrote some. Anyways, as a answer to you argument, it is only logical that HTs are later tech, since they are way better than ghosts.
On June 11 2010 16:34 SilverforceX wrote: I like how to suggest to retreat once EMPed.. yeah, try to run with conc shells on your ass. Even an easier win for the T army.
Don't exaggerate. Conc shells will maybe take out a few Zealots (roughly equal to the number of Marauders he has, likely less since they might not all get an attack off if your reaction time is good) while you run away. It's better than staying and losing your entire army.
So you have 3 ghosts and X marauders?
i have to retreat 3 times and you therefore get 3X zlot kills for -free-
also if you ever felt like using stim you can get far far more. You really can't pretend its not important
On July 02 2010 07:40 xDaunt wrote: Every protoss knows how to beat a ghost/marine opening. That's the not the issue. The issue is the degree of difficulty in beating it. "Imbalance" means more than just "Race A autoloses to Race B if Race B does X."
You could say the same thing about void rays. Toss players can just 1+a until the void ray is charged, terran needs tremendous viking/marine micro in order to fend it off. If the terran messes up and lets the void rays charge up, he's in for a lot of punishment.
I wouldn't say void rays are imba. They are hard for a T with little micro to fend off. And I would say the same if you think of a toss player against ghosts.
The difference with void rays is that marine/ghost builds counter void rays fairly hard. Just get stim.
On July 02 2010 07:11 xDaunt wrote: Ghosts are not expensive investments. A colossus is an expensive investment. A high templar is an expensive investment. Ghosts aren't even close.
More importantly, ghosts are not risky investments in TvP. In fact, as multiple terrans have shown during the beta, ghost/marine openings are remarkably durable against ANY protoss opening. Sure, the terran may not be able to go on the offensive right away against some protoss openings, but the terran can still very easily bunker up and take his natural with a ghost/marine opening.
You're absolutely wrong about this. Ghosts are incredibly expensive for T during the early game. Not only do you have to sacrifice gas to A: get the ghost academy and B: get the ghost, you also sacrifice TIME. you can't build any marauders for 2-3 production cycles. also, that ghost has to sit there for awhile just to get off one EMP. adding a ghost in early doesn't automatically make your marine force able to withstand a huge gateway rush.
When you're basically -1 tech lab, -1 rax early game, your forces are significantly reduced. it's incredibly risky and as T you're banking on being able to just hold off a toss push until you can get a few EMPs saved up, maybe an upgrade or 2 form the tech lab (also much more costly when going for ghosts now) before you can push out/expand.
Also, ghosts just can't be massed the way templar can later on. There's a point where toss is vulnerable to EMP, but this is a small window. Early game, toss is advantaged in terms of map control. Late game, depending on a number of variables, toss can have a clear advantage. Map control for toss, I would argue, is much more difficult against terran mech than a bio/emp build (which relies more on mobility than control). As far as I see it, terran has a window to move out with a push and try and gain some traction after the early game. If he is able to contain/damage the toss, he can turn these gains into a victory. There's nothing wrong with this kind of a match-up. I find it to be one of the more enjoyable ones, actually, as a random player.
Are you actually arguing that a terran's investment into ghost tech is comparable to a protoss's investment into colossus or high templar tech?
On July 02 2010 07:11 xDaunt wrote: Ghosts are not expensive investments. A colossus is an expensive investment. A high templar is an expensive investment. Ghosts aren't even close.
More importantly, ghosts are not risky investments in TvP. In fact, as multiple terrans have shown during the beta, ghost/marine openings are remarkably durable against ANY protoss opening. Sure, the terran may not be able to go on the offensive right away against some protoss openings, but the terran can still very easily bunker up and take his natural with a ghost/marine opening.
You're absolutely wrong about this. Ghosts are incredibly expensive for T during the early game. Not only do you have to sacrifice gas to A: get the ghost academy and B: get the ghost, you also sacrifice TIME. you can't build any marauders for 2-3 production cycles. also, that ghost has to sit there for awhile just to get off one EMP. adding a ghost in early doesn't automatically make your marine force able to withstand a huge gateway rush.
When you're basically -1 tech lab, -1 rax early game, your forces are significantly reduced. it's incredibly risky and as T you're banking on being able to just hold off a toss push until you can get a few EMPs saved up, maybe an upgrade or 2 form the tech lab (also much more costly when going for ghosts now) before you can push out/expand.
Also, ghosts just can't be massed the way templar can later on. There's a point where toss is vulnerable to EMP, but this is a small window. Early game, toss is advantaged in terms of map control. Late game, depending on a number of variables, toss can have a clear advantage. Map control for toss, I would argue, is much more difficult against terran mech than a bio/emp build (which relies more on mobility than control). As far as I see it, terran has a window to move out with a push and try and gain some traction after the early game. If he is able to contain/damage the toss, he can turn these gains into a victory. There's nothing wrong with this kind of a match-up. I find it to be one of the more enjoyable ones, actually, as a random player.
Are you actually arguing that a terran's investment into ghost tech is comparable to a protoss's investment into colossus or high templar tech?
uh..if ghosts are so expensive early game dont get them till alte game when shit they actually counter comes into play ????? no ones going to have colossus or storm 5 minutes into the game you know.
Even trying or sounding like youre comparing Ghost investment into storm/colossus investment is ridiculous
How many of you were actually played against Brat_ok's Marine/Bio timing push build that day9 showed in his video?
The build was never mentioned on this forum anywhere I could see until after Day9's video on it...which was after the beta ended.
Still seems like half of the people in this thread are just talking about EMP itself while another chunk is thinking more about brat_ok's timing push. Was his build so popular that so many of you have much experience against it before the beta ended? Just kinda blows my mind that the build was so strong but was never mentioned here on the forums until after Day9's video...
It just seems like anybody who hasn't tested their protoss build vs. this exact timing push may not understand the goal of this thread. Hopefully beta comes out soon so we can have more useful discussion on how this build is defeated.
On July 02 2010 07:11 xDaunt wrote: Ghosts are not expensive investments. A colossus is an expensive investment. A high templar is an expensive investment. Ghosts aren't even close.
More importantly, ghosts are not risky investments in TvP. In fact, as multiple terrans have shown during the beta, ghost/marine openings are remarkably durable against ANY protoss opening. Sure, the terran may not be able to go on the offensive right away against some protoss openings, but the terran can still very easily bunker up and take his natural with a ghost/marine opening.
You're absolutely wrong about this. Ghosts are incredibly expensive for T during the early game. Not only do you have to sacrifice gas to A: get the ghost academy and B: get the ghost, you also sacrifice TIME. you can't build any marauders for 2-3 production cycles. also, that ghost has to sit there for awhile just to get off one EMP. adding a ghost in early doesn't automatically make your marine force able to withstand a huge gateway rush.
When you're basically -1 tech lab, -1 rax early game, your forces are significantly reduced. it's incredibly risky and as T you're banking on being able to just hold off a toss push until you can get a few EMPs saved up, maybe an upgrade or 2 form the tech lab (also much more costly when going for ghosts now) before you can push out/expand.
Also, ghosts just can't be massed the way templar can later on. There's a point where toss is vulnerable to EMP, but this is a small window. Early game, toss is advantaged in terms of map control. Late game, depending on a number of variables, toss can have a clear advantage. Map control for toss, I would argue, is much more difficult against terran mech than a bio/emp build (which relies more on mobility than control). As far as I see it, terran has a window to move out with a push and try and gain some traction after the early game. If he is able to contain/damage the toss, he can turn these gains into a victory. There's nothing wrong with this kind of a match-up. I find it to be one of the more enjoyable ones, actually, as a random player.
Are you actually arguing that a terran's investment into ghost tech is comparable to a protoss's investment into colossus or high templar tech?
Even trying or sounding like youre comparing Ghost investment into storm/colossus investment is ridiculous
Actually, I think it's a pretty good comparison for the purposes of discussing the PvT matchup when you consider that ghosts do damage to protoss forces that is comparable to the damage that templar and colossi do to terran forces. When you look at it that way, then you start to see some of the issues with a terran's early and relatively easy access to EMP.
Just to be clear, EMP isn't necessarily the root of the problem. It's just one, if not the most obvious, of the contributing factors to why a ghost/bio build is so strong against protoss. Easy access to stim and combat shields are just as much to blame, and perhaps making those more difficult to get would be a better solution than nerfing EMP (the argument against this would be that changing these upgrades would disturb TvZ too much, but then again [not that I know anything about TvZ] the changes might be good there, too). By comparison, protoss has a much more difficult time accessing its higher techs and basic unit upgrades.
As far as I know, Balancing is done, and phase 2 is just for B.Net stuff.
Balancing is not done by a long shot. Other than that your post seems really good .
Source?
On July 02 2010 15:49 Doko wrote: "Early zealot pressure would be effective"
uuuuuh? how do you expect a zealot army to break through a wall of buildings and still have enough punch to kill the ranged units inside that can kite you or hide behind a wall of scvs?
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Seriously don't understand why emp doesn't require a research to cast. Make it 50/50 but the delay would be sufficient to give protoss a decent chance to tech to something that can deal with MMG on equal terms.
As I've said, just throwing out ideas.
And guys, props for repeating the arguments. The thing with EMP is that it's rarely ever used against zerg, so it has a niche use already against protoss. It's not a late game thing like the original EMP, but it doesn't take off all shields. Now, people who compare Tier3 to tier 1.5/2, you have to realize that colossi damage is certain damage. Health doesn't regen for Terran unless you invest in healing units. Shield damage regens, and regens quickly. Someone suggested retreating after getting EMP'd and that seems reasonable. If you just 1a, you can't expect to survive every confrontation. For me, I think that what this really comes down to is that the protoss have to learn to deal with this as an option, just as terran have to be prepared for a VR rush, or a proxy, or something else like that.
Just to be clear, EMP isn't necessarily the root of the problem. It's just one, if not the most obvious, of the contributing factors to why a ghost/bio build is so strong against protoss. Easy access to stim and combat shields are just as much to blame, and perhaps making those more difficult to get would be a better solution than nerfing EMP (the argument against this would be that changing these upgrades would disturb TvZ too much, but then again [not that I know anything about TvZ] the changes might be good there, too). By comparison, protoss has a much more difficult time accessing its higher techs and basic unit upgrades.
If you did that, you would completely destroy infantry versus zerg, and might hurt it versus protoss. You'd just see more Ghost mech and things of that nature.
Hum... how can the protoss retreat safely after the EMP when stimmed MM outrun most protoss units plus concussive shells' help and the fact that the tanking slow zealots had to be at the front, so if the protoss decides he should retreat the zealots which were half way on the path to the terrans army now have to go back?
On July 03 2010 01:09 Duelist wrote: Hum... how can the protoss retreat safely after the EMP when stimmed MM outrun most protoss units plus concussive shells' help and the fact that the tanking slow zealots had to be at the front, so if the protoss decides he should retreat the zealots which were half way on the path to the terrans army now have to go back?
Well, if any sentries survive, FF is great. Otherwise, you can focus on Zealots with speed and blink stalkers in your composition. Neither of these are necessarily ideal. You can sack half your army, which, of course, is better than leaving all of it. I am, by no means, a professional player, but I think spreading out your sentries will be more and more important as the game progresses. For example, making your enemy choose what he wants to EMP.
Are you actually arguing that a terran's investment into ghost tech is comparable to a protoss's investment into colossus or high templar tech?
Yes, I am making this argument. Call it ridiculous without any backing information all you want, getting a ghost out in time for an early push (the Brat_OK build) is the extremely effective timing, and only timing I believe could be considered imbalanced. Templar are a natural transition later on for toss, because you should already have massed a bunch of gateways anyway. I fail to see how not having an extra sentry or stalker here or there would impact the game incredibly past the opening minutes.
To counter the argument about this timing imbalance, high templar take longer BUT ghosts also take a looong time to build. It hurts terran's overall macro production, but you do this in exchange for a spell that has a powerful timing window.
I'm not saying that it isn't more expensive money-wise for toss to tech up later on, but that the money means more because terran has to invest so early - you effectively need to make an entire opneing around it instead of being able to transition like a toss can into casters.
With this kind of investment, you could have a tank with seige out or early air for harass. Unless terran has good control and timing, toss can fairly easily run away from an emp and regenerate shields. It's a strong spell, but needs to be used well and carefully planned in order to work.
Are you actually arguing that a terran's investment into ghost tech is comparable to a protoss's investment into colossus or high templar tech?
Yes, I am making this argument. Call it ridiculous without any backing information all you want, getting a ghost out in time for an early push (the Brat_OK build) is the extremely effective timing, and only timing I believe could be considered imbalanced. Templar are a natural transition later on for toss, because you should already have massed a bunch of gateways anyway. I fail to see how not having an extra sentry or stalker here or there would impact the game incredibly past the opening minutes.
To counter the argument about this timing imbalance, high templar take longer BUT ghosts also take a looong time to build. It hurts terran's overall macro production, but you do this in exchange for a spell that has a powerful timing window.
I'm not saying that it isn't more expensive money-wise for toss to tech up later on, but that the money means more because terran has to invest so early - you effectively need to make an entire opneing around it instead of being able to transition like a toss can into casters.
With this kind of investment, you could have a tank with seige out or early air for harass. Unless terran has good control and timing, toss can fairly easily run away from an emp and regenerate shields. It's a strong spell, but needs to be used well and carefully planned in order to work.
You bring up a good point. There's no way you can really do any harass, except maybe a reaper or two in the Brat OK build.
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: Yes, I am making this argument. Call it ridiculous without any backing information all you want, getting a ghost out in time for an early push (the Brat_OK build) is the extremely effective timing, and only timing I believe could be considered imbalanced.
Well if you're going to concede this point, then I don't see where the larger disagreement is.
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: Templar are a natural transition later on for toss, because you should already have massed a bunch of gateways anyway. I fail to see how not having an extra sentry or stalker here or there would impact the game incredibly past the opening minutes.
Here's where you lose me. Templar aren't exactly a natural transition from anything. Assuming that the toss has the twilight council up (definitely not guaranteed), templar tech requires another 150/200 for the templar archives, a further 200/200 for storm, and, optimally, another 150/150 for the energy upgrade. How is that an easy transition? That's 400 gas before one templar has even been built. Yes, templar are produced out of warpgages, but it's not as if ghosts are produced out of some weird, unnatural building. How many terrans aren't going to have at least one rax with a tech lab?
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: To counter the argument about this timing imbalance, high templar take longer BUT ghosts also take a looong time to build. It hurts terran's overall macro production, but you do this in exchange for a spell that has a powerful timing window.
This is where I throw out the rhetorical "so?" Ghosts take 40 seconds to produce. By comparison, marines take 25 seconds, and marauders take 30 seconds. So what does a terran get when he invests the extra 15 seconds into making a ghost as opposed to a marine? Something pretty damned good: a unit with approximately twice the hitpoints, ~1.2x - 2x the damage (depending upon whether the target's armor is light), and an instant-cast, area of effect ability that effectively cuts protoss hp by 30-50% (depending upon the unit) and depletes the mana of every protoss unit hit. Are we really going to make a big deal out of this extra 15 seconds in lost macro time per ghost created? I didn't think so.
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: With this kind of investment, you could have a tank with seige out or early air for harass.
This is my favorite part of your post: your argument that ghosts are a big investment because a terran could have an early tank instead. Guess what? I bet you that every protoss player out there would prefer that the terran get the early tank as opposed to the early ghost! An early tank is easy to deal with. An early ghost is not.
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: Unless terran has good control and timing, toss can fairly easily run away from an emp and regenerate shields. It's a strong spell, but needs to be used well and carefully planned in order to work.
This running away thing that everyone keeps talking about doesn't work as well some would like to believe. In fact, running away is almost impossible in early game encounters because the terran doesn't even need to lead with his ghosts before engaging. The terran can bait the protoss player into engagement, EMP, and then stim. At that point, it's too late. The protoss won't get very far without heavy losses. Even assuming that I am able to run my troops away, it takes the better part of a minute for the shields to recharge. What exactly do you people think that the terran is going to do during that time?
There's not a protoss player out there who has not slipped up with troop control against an early game ghost/bio force and subsequently gotten his face roflstomped by EMP and stimmed marines/marauders. Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that the early ghost with EMP is unbeatable per se, but it certainly creates a very difficult and unforgiving dynamic for protoss players.
A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things: 1. late factory tech (no mech yet) 2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark 3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons: 1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran) 2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units) 3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote: A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things: 1. late factory tech (no mech yet) 2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark 3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons: 1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran) 2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units) 3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
Well said. Sure there are tricks and so on, but overall, you have abuse what you can.
On July 03 2010 06:45 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only way to dodge an EMP is to mind-read.
Well, yes, effectively. Or you can spread out your units, or use hallucinated units to soak up EMP. Or with your god hands, you can Feedback.
funny how u agree to ghost taking long to build n shit while u just say things like hallucinate. hallucinate is by no way a "natural progression"
feedback is not meant to be used on ghost bc it simply sucks against it. u can read y by going back in the thread
spreading out is ok but wat u need to understand is when u engage ur army will come into a smaller area eventually. no one says the terran has to emp as soon as he sees the toss army. depending on the map spreading out may or may not be effective. since emp has a ridicolous range, anything threatening that is far away can be ignored n as soon as they come close enough to do damage, boom emp(case against templar)
there is only 1 thing toss can do against emp, n that is take one w/e the terran feels like using it. the projectile that it fires is like a split second thing, there is no way to run away from it.
On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote: A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things: 1. late factory tech (no mech yet) 2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark 3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons: 1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran) 2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units) 3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
this shows how much u know about the matchup. a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against any reaper harass but a proxy reaper next to ur base
1. early game econ advantage? that goes away as soon as terran gets orbital n start muling. 2. how do u suggest toss go 4 gate aggression n not fight to get up the terran ramp? if u dont do damage as 4 gate ur gunna be behind. forming a superior concave is only possible if the terran army moves out n when they do itll be with 2+ghost(if they use ghost build) 3. this goes for the terran player too. its hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1 base and expand early on. later on the terran will break out of any contain ur have at their natural n expand when see fit
On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote: A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things: 1. late factory tech (no mech yet) 2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark 3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons: 1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran) 2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units) 3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
this shows how much u know about the matchup. a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against any reaper harass but a proxy reaper next to ur base
1. early game econ advantage? that goes away as soon as terran gets orbital n start muling. 2. how do u suggest toss go 4 gate aggression n not fight to get up the terran ramp? if u dont do damage as 4 gate ur gunna be behind. forming a superior concave is only possible if the terran army moves out n when they do itll be with 2+ghost(if they use ghost build) 3. this goes for the terran player too. its hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1 base and expand early on. later on the terran will break out of any contain ur have at their natural n expand when see fit
trucejl, do you even play protoss? while i agree a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against most reaper harass, how do you plan to account for anywhere from a 6~8 rax on maps like SoW or BS?
Again, do you even play protoss? toss reaches max saturation before terran does and sustains a slight but crucial mineral advantage early game. EVEN WITH the mule mining, the toss player still maintains a slight mineral advantage until terran reaches a certain number of workers.
Why do you assume that when the terran moves out it'll be GG for the toss just because they have 2+ ghost? lol? And also, it's not hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1base... IN FACT in my experience the game almost encourages aggressive 1-base play for protoss because of the chronoboosting mechanics. You would have a hard time constantly producing out of 6 gates, NOT 4.
On July 03 2010 06:45 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only way to dodge an EMP is to mind-read.
Well, yes, effectively. Or you can spread out your units, or use hallucinated units to soak up EMP. Or with your god hands, you can Feedback.
funny how u agree to ghost taking long to build n shit while u just say things like hallucinate. hallucinate is by no way a "natural progression"
feedback is not meant to be used on ghost bc it simply sucks against it. u can read y by going back in the thread
spreading out is ok but wat u need to understand is when u engage ur army will come into a smaller area eventually. no one says the terran has to emp as soon as he sees the toss army. depending on the map spreading out may or may not be effective. since emp has a ridicolous range, anything threatening that is far away can be ignored n as soon as they come close enough to do damage, boom emp(case against templar)
there is only 1 thing toss can do against emp, n that is take one w/e the terran feels like using it. the projectile that it fires is like a split second thing, there is no way to run away from it.
Hallucinate comes from a building you already have and is made by a unit you already have.
Or YOU could read what I've said on it. >>. If they're close enough to get a good EMP, often times, you're close enough to FB.
If you don't think you can survive the confrontation, then don't have it. Just control the middle of the map, and reinforce with a pylon.
On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote: A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things: 1. late factory tech (no mech yet) 2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark 3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons: 1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran) 2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units) 3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
this shows how much u know about the matchup. a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against any reaper harass but a proxy reaper next to ur base
1. early game econ advantage? that goes away as soon as terran gets orbital n start muling. 2. how do u suggest toss go 4 gate aggression n not fight to get up the terran ramp? if u dont do damage as 4 gate ur gunna be behind. forming a superior concave is only possible if the terran army moves out n when they do itll be with 2+ghost(if they use ghost build) 3. this goes for the terran player too. its hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1 base and expand early on. later on the terran will break out of any contain ur have at their natural n expand when see fit
1. Toss can make probes more quickly, thus the economy should be equal. 2./3. Covered above.
@ancient: its call scouting n using probes. i hear thats wat everyone does against super early cheese. the mineral advantage ur talking about it barely noticeable. assuming toss using chrono boost 2-3 times for probes early on(most typical), it will only be a 2-4 worker lead. that isnt significant gap when mules enter the equation. i didnt say it was GG when terran pushes out with 2 ghost. u wanted to use 4 gates to control the map but as soon as the 2+ ghost push comes ull be the one inside ur base. 4 gate alone is sustainable on 1 base but its hard to keep CONSTANT production WHILE u expand(read better). also it depends on the army u r trying to sustain.
3 gates is the most effective number to use when u r planning an early expansion. after that u can add up till 8 gates. with 4 gates u have to stop production at some point to expand while 3 u dont.
@mythicalmage: sure hallucinate comes from a building u alrdy have but it should only be gotten after warp gate. im sure u know how frikin long warp gate takes. not to mention its another 100gas+110 time. FB = 9 range EMP = 10+2 range+AOE. so if ur close enough to get a good emp, ur templars wont have any energy to FB. like i said go back to read wat every sane person said about FB vs emp. so ur saying not to have confrontations n still maintain map control? which noob is gunna stay back n give u map control like that?
thanks for proving my point on terran not having any significant econ disadvantage early on. u might want to read wat ancient said.
edit: ancient if ur scared of super early cheese like 6-8 rack, its better to sent a early scout when u expect it n not just go 10 gate all the time. n dont contradict urself man, u said that most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper n right after u say 12-13 is sufficient against reaper. putting a extreme situation doesnt make it look any better. also im not saying 10 gate is bad, its just a build meant for early expand or aggression. its hardly most ppl to using on most maps
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
On July 03 2010 09:44 trucejl wrote: @ancient: its call scouting n using probes. i hear thats wat everyone does against super early cheese. the mineral advantage ur talking about it barely noticeable. assuming toss using chrono boost 2-3 times for probes early on(most typical), it will only be a 2-4 worker lead. that isnt significant gap when mules enter the equation. i didnt say it was GG when terran pushes out with 2 ghost. u wanted to use 4 gates to control the map but as soon as the 2+ ghost push comes ull be the one inside ur base. 4 gate alone is sustainable on 1 base but its hard to keep CONSTANT production WHILE u expand(read better). also it depends on the army u r trying to sustain.
3 gates is the most effective number to use when u r planning an early expansion. after that u can add up till 8 gates. with 4 gates u have to stop production at some point to expand while 3 u dont.
@mythicalmage: sure hallucinate comes from a building u alrdy have but it should only be gotten after warp gate. im sure u know how frikin long warp gate takes. not to mention its another 100gas+110 time. FB = 9 range EMP = 10+2 range+AOE. so if ur close enough to get a good emp, ur templars wont have any energy to FB. like i said go back to read wat every sane person said about FB vs emp. so ur saying not to have confrontations n still maintain map control? which noob is gunna stay back n give u map control like that?
thanks for proving my point on terran not having any significant econ disadvantage early on. u might want to read wat ancient said.
edit: ancient if ur scared of super early cheese like 6-8 rack, its better to sent a early scout when u expect it n not just go 10 gate all the time. n dont contradict urself man, u said that most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper n right after u say 12-13 is sufficient against reaper. putting a extreme situation doesnt make it look any better. also im not saying 10 gate is bad, its just a build meant for early expand or aggression. its hardly most ppl to using on most maps
>>. If you continue to chrono boost probes, instead of rushing for early tech or early pressure, which as has been said is dumb due to the terran wall, (Not sure if I agree with this), then you should be equal, income wise. Not only that, you can saturate your natural better and so on. The game, shockingly, is designed to be balanced.
As for expanding, you are correct, three is better. 4 is more for rushes/all ins and the like.
Well, you would obviously get it after Warp Gate. It's not like you're going to be getting air upgrades any time soon. As for the Feedback, as I've said what seems to be twenty times, EMP has a projectile. So, if they fire it directly on your templar, who is moving forward, you can Feedback before the EMP hits. And has already been said, if the EMP is premature, the protoss can just retreat. IF it's when in the choke, the ghost is in FB range. Of course, this is late game.
On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote: I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
On July 03 2010 09:44 trucejl wrote: @ancient: its call scouting n using probes. i hear thats wat everyone does against super early cheese. the mineral advantage ur talking about it barely noticeable. assuming toss using chrono boost 2-3 times for probes early on(most typical), it will only be a 2-4 worker lead. that isnt significant gap when mules enter the equation. i didnt say it was GG when terran pushes out with 2 ghost. u wanted to use 4 gates to control the map but as soon as the 2+ ghost push comes ull be the one inside ur base. 4 gate alone is sustainable on 1 base but its hard to keep CONSTANT production WHILE u expand(read better). also it depends on the army u r trying to sustain.
3 gates is the most effective number to use when u r planning an early expansion. after that u can add up till 8 gates. with 4 gates u have to stop production at some point to expand while 3 u dont.
edit: ancient if ur scared of super early cheese like 6-8 rack, its better to sent a early scout when u expect it n not just go 10 gate all the time. n dont contradict urself man, u said that most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper n right after u say 12-13 is sufficient against reaper. putting a extreme situation doesnt make it look any better. also im not saying 10 gate is bad, its just a build meant for early expand or aggression. its hardly most ppl to using on most maps
trucejl, 3gate is also viable i'm not trying to disprove that -- so don't get your panties in a bunch. i think we're all intelligent enough to assume peoples will scout using a worker, so try not to state the obvious.
the early mineral advantage of toss is a crucial part of the balance to PvT -- i believe it's one of the reasons why protoss players are able to 1base against terran until some mid-game (as opposed to brood war play).
i said most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper and i stand by it... you're saying that most toss go 12-13 -- there's no concrete proof of numbers what "most toss players do". There's nothing "game-breaking" with going 10 gate in anticipation of terran proxy / reaper bunker, which is fairly commonplace in plat/diamond.
I have to confess I go 10 gate pretty much all the time vs. terran, and what? Now I'm in a terrible econ situation just because i didn't 12 gate? I don't think it's an egregious build order error. I confess it could be better refined by going 12-13 gate but on certain maps without a certain degree of luck a 10 gate scenario is best when you are theory-crafting.
I'm sorry for generalizing by saying "most protoss players", but that's it.
Don't make a circular argument by saying early expansion discredits 4 gate. I never said 4 gate was to use in conjunction with early expansion. 4 gate can provide a good window of attack against the terran if the toss gets quick blink or chargelot or it can lead to good contain, thus PROVIDING a chance to expand (this does not mean you're shooting for that early expansion). Again, it's not a blueprint for 4gate + fast expand -- read better.
@mythicalmage: READ PLZ. im saying exactly wat ur saying about econ early on regarding chrono boost n mules. ancient is the one saying toss has a exploitable econ advantage over terran. i refuse to go on about FB vs EMP, u can read about it in the thread.
@ancient: until u can provide a graph that chrono boost enables a significant econ advantage over toss im going to stand by my statement that mules cancel out that 2-4 probe advantage early on. not to mention once full saturation is reached, 1 base terran out macros 1 base toss. so ur statement about 1 basing between terran n toss is incredibly wrong.
good job contradicting urself again about the 10 gate. first u say most n then u say u shouldnt. make up ur mind. also no where did i said most toss go 12-13 gate. i just said 12-13 is sufficient against reaper harass. i agree that there is nothing wrong with going 10 gate when u expect proxy reaper but how often do u c ppl going proxy reaper? 1 outta 10 games? if u sent out ur first pylon probe n catch the proxy rac, u can still drop down that 10 gate. u alrdy said ur wrong about most toss going 10 gate so there is no need to go on any further about it.
wat u say about 4 gate push is true for every single push in the game. y even bother mentioning expanding off that? once the terran pushes out when u expand(which means u stop gateway production momentarily), they can expand too. not to mention they can even build their CC bef they push n just float it. look im not saying 4 gate push is bad. i just dont c how its relevant to the conversion about EMP if ur not talking about FE with it which is wat i implied from ur post
there is a difference betw early scout aka bef u make a pylon in anticipation of proxy. thats wat im trying to say can be used in that situation. 10 gate does not have to be the standard bc ur afraid of proxy every game
On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote: I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote: I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas.
EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason.
On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote: I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas.
EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason.
Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles.
On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote: I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas.
EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason.
Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles.
But it's not pure marauder ghost. It's MMG. Which doesn't kite. >>.
On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote: I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas.
EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason.
Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles.
But it's not pure marauder ghost. It's MMG. Which doesn't kite. >>.
I don't see how 3 types of ranged units with similar speed and range can't kite together. In fact, I see them do it all the time.
On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote: I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas.
EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason.
Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles.
But it's not pure marauder ghost. It's MMG. Which doesn't kite. >>.
I don't see how 3 types of ranged units with similar speed and range can't kite together. In fact, I see them do it all the time.
Source? Because marines and ghost have a long firing animation, kiting with them is hard. And they each have a DIFFERENT firing animation. And only marauders slow, which complicates things.
On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote: I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule.
WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out.
terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false
On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote: I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule.
WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out.
terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false
WTF do you speak english?
Sorry, couldn't resist. That's not why MULEs help the economy, or at least not most of it. They mine so much faster than SCVs, and they can mine over SCVs. Of course, Protoss gets full saturation faster and whether that is better or worse is still unknown. The numbers just don't exist right now.
On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote: I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule.
WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out.
terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false
WTF do you speak english?
Sorry, couldn't resist. That's not why MULEs help the economy, or at least not most of it. They mine so much faster than SCVs, and they can mine over SCVs. Of course, Protoss gets full saturation faster and whether that is better or worse is still unknown. The numbers just don't exist right now.
On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote: I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule.
WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out.
terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false
WTF do you speak english?
Sorry, couldn't resist. That's not why MULEs help the economy, or at least not most of it. They mine so much faster than SCVs, and they can mine over SCVs. Of course, Protoss gets full saturation faster and whether that is better or worse is still unknown. The numbers just don't exist right now.
i give up ur helpless......
What about that is wrong? And if it is, please enlighten me, oh great trucejl.
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss?
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss?
umm when mules come out at 14-16, toss will have chrono boost twice which is about a 2 worker lead. ur gunna tell me 2 workers gives u a significant advantage over 1 mule?
ppl use reaper bunker mostly on early expansions. if a lot of ppl r using them on ur main then im just playing diff ppl. u dont always have to catch the proxy rax, if u sent an early one out n see nothing in their base, then u know they proxy somewhere. c how that works?
there were complains about those units bc ppl suggested those as solutions to emp n failed. stalkers n sentry r horrible against ghost so if they have 2 ghost half of ur army is horrible. assuming u go max half zealot. 4 gate is meant to push into ur opponents base n do dmg, NOT make a concave in the open. y would the terran have a unit lapse if they dont push out until they can deal with a similar size gateway army.
where did i say every game i play i sent out a 6-7 probe to scout? u seriously need to stop selective reading. im saying it more effective than just going straight up 10 gate if u suspect a early proxy. if u scout n c proxy, by all mean throw down that 10 gate. if not u can go a more econ build with 12-13 gate. it gives u flexibility that going 10 gate every time doesnt. i dont even know y u would be so worry about something that happens maybe 1 in 10 games. u should worry more about the other 9 games.
just to remind u, READ. dont just go off on a tangent on something i never said
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: Yes, I am making this argument. Call it ridiculous without any backing information all you want, getting a ghost out in time for an early push (the Brat_OK build) is the extremely effective timing, and only timing I believe could be considered imbalanced.
Well if you're going to concede this point, then I don't see where the larger disagreement is.
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: Templar are a natural transition later on for toss, because you should already have massed a bunch of gateways anyway. I fail to see how not having an extra sentry or stalker here or there would impact the game incredibly past the opening minutes.
Here's where you lose me. Templar aren't exactly a natural transition from anything. Assuming that the toss has the twilight council up (definitely not guaranteed), templar tech requires another 150/200 for the templar archives, a further 200/200 for storm, and, optimally, another 150/150 for the energy upgrade. How is that an easy transition? That's 400 gas before one templar has even been built. Yes, templar are produced out of warpgages, but it's not as if ghosts are produced out of some weird, unnatural building. How many terrans aren't going to have at least one rax with a tech lab?
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: To counter the argument about this timing imbalance, high templar take longer BUT ghosts also take a looong time to build. It hurts terran's overall macro production, but you do this in exchange for a spell that has a powerful timing window.
This is where I throw out the rhetorical "so?" Ghosts take 40 seconds to produce. By comparison, marines take 25 seconds, and marauders take 30 seconds. So what does a terran get when he invests the extra 15 seconds into making a ghost as opposed to a marine? Something pretty damned good: a unit with approximately twice the hitpoints, ~1.2x - 2x the damage (depending upon whether the target's armor is light), and an instant-cast, area of effect ability that effectively cuts protoss hp by 30-50% (depending upon the unit) and depletes the mana of every protoss unit hit. Are we really going to make a big deal out of this extra 15 seconds in lost macro time per ghost created? I didn't think so.
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: With this kind of investment, you could have a tank with seige out or early air for harass.
This is my favorite part of your post: your argument that ghosts are a big investment because a terran could have an early tank instead. Guess what? I bet you that every protoss player out there would prefer that the terran get the early tank as opposed to the early ghost! An early tank is easy to deal with. An early ghost is not.
On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote: Unless terran has good control and timing, toss can fairly easily run away from an emp and regenerate shields. It's a strong spell, but needs to be used well and carefully planned in order to work.
This running away thing that everyone keeps talking about doesn't work as well some would like to believe. In fact, running away is almost impossible in early game encounters because the terran doesn't even need to lead with his ghosts before engaging. The terran can bait the protoss player into engagement, EMP, and then stim. At that point, it's too late. The protoss won't get very far without heavy losses. Even assuming that I am able to run my troops away, it takes the better part of a minute for the shields to recharge. What exactly do you people think that the terran is going to do during that time?
There's not a protoss player out there who has not slipped up with troop control against an early game ghost/bio force and subsequently gotten his face roflstomped by EMP and stimmed marines/marauders. Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that the early ghost with EMP is unbeatable per se, but it certainly creates a very difficult and unforgiving dynamic for protoss players.
I'm not really sure why you've decided to pick apart the little pieces here, other than to just say "i'm right and you're wrong". I didn't say that I think EMP is imbalanced, unlike what your post implies. I'm also still not convinced that EMP or ghosts should be changed. I play random, and as a toss find that facing terran bio is usually easier than dealing with mech or harass-oriented play.
all toss has to do is have good unit control; imho, toss can easily contian terran early game if he's teching ghosts, until terran gets a unit composition to push out in the early-mid game. if toss holds out for awhile, his macro and tech can usually be used to swing the battle into his favor. a terran infantry army, even with ghosts, is easily countered by toss tech. true, it's not always easy to get there, but ghosts aren't a perfect unit counter to everything, as you seem to be suggesting
pretty sure storms can kill ghosts too along with the marine around him. people say emp is OP cuz it takes away shields. shields are only half the protoss health the actual units gotta deal the rest of the damage. storms KILL units not just take away half health. the only time feedback is really necessary is when ghosts are outside of the mm ball and in that case they're easy to feedback anyways. dunno what the whole emp is OP thing is about. without emp terran can't fight protoss when going bio cuz collosus and HTs absolutely stomp bio with just a tiny handful of them. and now that mechs nerfed bio seems the only decent option in TvP. yall protoss just need to learn how to cast storm properly. it's all about who outplays the other. whoever is manageing to pay attention first and cast their spell better will win. no imbalance just whoever is better will win like how any game should be. ghosts and HTs should no be changed at all. tho i think mech should be refitted to handle TvP better cuz bio vs protoss seems weird to me.
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss?
umm when mules come out at 14-16, toss will have chrono boost twice which is about a 2 worker lead. ur gunna tell me 2 workers gives u a significant advantage over 1 mule?
ppl use reaper bunker mostly on early expansions. if a lot of ppl r using them on ur main then im just playing diff ppl. u dont always have to catch the proxy rax, if u sent an early one out n see nothing in their base, then u know they proxy somewhere. c how that works?
there were complains about those units bc ppl suggested those as solutions to emp n failed. stalkers n sentry r horrible against ghost so if they have 2 ghost half of ur army is horrible. assuming u go max half zealot. 4 gate is meant to push into ur opponents base n do dmg, NOT make a concave in the open. y would the terran have a unit lapse if they dont push out until they can deal with a similar size gateway army.
where did i say every game i play i sent out a 6-7 probe to scout? u seriously need to stop selective reading. im saying it more effective than just going straight up 10 gate if u suspect a early proxy. if u scout n c proxy, by all mean throw down that 10 gate. if not u can go a more econ build with 12-13 gate. it gives u flexibility that going 10 gate every time doesnt. i dont even know y u would be so worry about something that happens maybe 1 in 10 games. u should worry more about the other 9 games.
just to remind u, READ. dont just go off on a tangent on something i never said
@trucejl the more you write the more i think you don't actually play protoss but just theorize about it. if you actually play the race you'd know that in order to catch an early proxy you'd need to send out a probe around 6 or 7 at the latest, and this is surefire on maps with only 2 starting locations! stop repeating yourself i know 12-13 is an econ build.
don't writing bullshit about pushing into a terran's main with a 4gate without adv tech (I think you're confusing PvT with PvZ bro)
and why don't you READ the previous posts on this thread, a fair number of them discussed the prospects of using early protoss advanced tech to deal with the incoming ghost/bioball. you mention nothing about tech or micro-technique when engaging the terran. all you are writing is bullshit.
again stop with the circular reasoning and read more... you're talking about "dealing with a similiar size gateway army", don't assuming the terran bioball is just going to timing rush out and "deal" with protoss 4gate effectively, it's not invincible. you just fell into the category of every asshat that was complaining about EMP without offering anything of substance when you said "stalkers and sentries are horrible against ghost"
and stop writing bullshit about how terran only goes reaper 1 out of 10 games, where are you getting these numbers? is it from your own experience as a protoss player?
you're really hopeless when it comes to pvt mechanics... when the mule comes out for terran (14~16 supply) its not the end of the world for protoss econ... in fact, protoss still manage a lead.
a lot of players use early reaper. and i mean early. with a bunker. it also transitions well into 2rax marauders to punish toss who over-commit to stalker, and the ghost tech (the crux of the discussion). you're wrong about sending your first probe out and "catching the proxy rax". clearly you get very lucky guessing the proxy locations. (for reference watch DeMuslim)
the reason why a 4gate is relevant against EMP is that a large mix of protoss tier1 units makes EMP less effective. I'm saying this because the majority of complaints in earlier posts revolved around EMP taking out immortal shields, stripping HT and phoenix of energy, or just complaining that it was a tech imbalance in general.
the 4gate is not an initial intent to push and destroy the terran early... of course the option becomes available on certain maps like blistering sands, kulas or even scrap station, the 4 gate is meant to increase your tier1 unit supply that you can fight as a concave out openly *and survive*
meanwhile if there's any lapse in the terran's unit production you can take the initiative to expand to a gold (steppes of war, desert oasis, kulas) or tech to twilight council
bro are you saying every toss game you play you send out a probe at 6 or 7 to scout for "proxy rax" instead of scouting their main? on what map do you do this? kulas ravine? lost temple? seriously man, do you even play protoss?
umm when mules come out at 14-16, toss will have chrono boost twice which is about a 2 worker lead. ur gunna tell me 2 workers gives u a significant advantage over 1 mule?
ppl use reaper bunker mostly on early expansions. if a lot of ppl r using them on ur main then im just playing diff ppl. u dont always have to catch the proxy rax, if u sent an early one out n see nothing in their base, then u know they proxy somewhere. c how that works?
there were complains about those units bc ppl suggested those as solutions to emp n failed. stalkers n sentry r horrible against ghost so if they have 2 ghost half of ur army is horrible. assuming u go max half zealot. 4 gate is meant to push into ur opponents base n do dmg, NOT make a concave in the open. y would the terran have a unit lapse if they dont push out until they can deal with a similar size gateway army.
where did i say every game i play i sent out a 6-7 probe to scout? u seriously need to stop selective reading. im saying it more effective than just going straight up 10 gate if u suspect a early proxy. if u scout n c proxy, by all mean throw down that 10 gate. if not u can go a more econ build with 12-13 gate. it gives u flexibility that going 10 gate every time doesnt. i dont even know y u would be so worry about something that happens maybe 1 in 10 games. u should worry more about the other 9 games.
just to remind u, READ. dont just go off on a tangent on something i never said
Personally, I reaper about 1 in 1000 games. Protoss is more than 2 probes up at first mule because not only have you chronoboosted, the terran has had to take time to tech. When you say, "im just playing diff ppl," I'm inclined to agree.
@Ancient I think it's pretty obvious what he meant by the stalkers and sentries' afirmation. With an EMP on them, both go to 50% of their total health, and sentries become totally useless as their main utility, since the patch when their damage was hugely nerfed, are their spells. So an EMP on top of those 2 units makes them lose more than 50% of their utility. In my opinion, that qualifies as horrible.
A lot of people are comparing the effectiveness of EMP vs Psi Storm, but I don't think it was ever intended for these two spells to fit the same role. Both spells have their strengths and weaknesses (example, EMP can't kill, but is instant cast, but storm can kill, but is a DoT) which make them fit into different roles.
When comparing EMP in SC2 to that of SC:BW, it seems that SC:BW's is more powerful, as it removes ALL shield, while everything else about it remains the same afaik (the radius might be bigger in SC:BW? I have no idea) but I never saw anyone complaining about EMP in SC:BW, so is the real problem the ability to get it so quickly rather than the actual effects of the spell itself?
On July 04 2010 07:40 Najda wrote: so is the real problem the ability to get it so quickly rather than the actual effects of the spell itself?
This is one of concern that most protoss have. I really find the TvP mu to be directed by the terran he can either get some reapers, don't need to be that fast as 8-9 rax but in a standard eco build and maintain map control while transitionning, you can't really get out of your base when there are 2-3 reapers ready to get rid of all your probes while you hit the terran wall even if you have a stalker to defend you need atleast 8 hit to kill those 2 reapers. Or the terran can let the map control to the protoss while getting 1-2 fast ghosts in a bioball and defend their ramp.
In that case yes the terran cannot get out of his ramp because of the spreaded out sentry that can FF the ramp but the protoss can't try to get on that ramp or he'll get severely punish ed by the EMP, with good use of some medivac with 8 marines you can force the protoss to either lose all probe and allin counter trying to getover the ramp and overrun your defenses but with bunkered marines and some EMP the terran can be safe (just need a viking if the P get range uprgraded collossus). A medivac full of marines can take out a turn of 4 gateway unit so the P will need to get some forces back from the front and lose map control or commit his probes to fight to the death.
A protoss composition that are good at handling bioghost ball as zealot, sentries, collossus really lack in mobility early-mid game with no blinkstalker/phenix a medivac of marines will screw the P gameplan and if the P does any other kind of stalker/sentry/immortal mix a direct fight of bioghost will have the upperhand if the T doesn't overcommit to stim himself to death if he doesn't have medivacs yet or running into choke with sentry ready to FF.
On July 04 2010 07:40 Najda wrote: so is the real problem the ability to get it so quickly rather than the actual effects of the spell itself?
This is one of concern that most protoss have. I really find the TvP mu to be directed by the terran he can either get some reapers, don't need to be that fast as 8-9 rax but in a standard eco build and maintain map control while transitionning, you can't really get out of your base when there are 2-3 reapers ready to get rid of all your probes while you hit the terran wall even if you have a stalker to defend you need atleast 8 hit to kill those 2 reapers. Or the terran can let the map control to the protoss while getting 1-2 fast ghosts in a bioball and defend their ramp.
In that case yes the terran cannot get out of his ramp because of the spreaded out sentry that can FF the ramp but the protoss can't try to get on that ramp or he'll get severely punish ed by the EMP, with good use of some medivac with 8 marines you can force the protoss to either lose all probe and allin counter trying to getover the ramp and overrun your defenses but with bunkered marines and some EMP the terran can be safe (just need a viking if the P get range uprgraded collossus). A medivac full of marines can take out a turn of 4 gateway unit so the P will need to get some forces back from the front and lose map control or commit his probes to fight to the death.
A protoss composition that are good at handling bioghost ball as zealot, sentries, collossus really lack in mobility early-mid game with no blinkstalker/phenix a medivac of marines will screw the P gameplan and if the P does any other kind of stalker/sentry/immortal mix a direct fight of bioghost will have the upperhand if the T doesn't overcommit to stim himself to death if he doesn't have medivacs yet or running into choke with sentry ready to FF.
If Protoss has map control, why not just expand then if the Terran is contained at his base?
You MUST expand as soon as you have contained the T but it doesn't translate directly in giving an advantage to the Protoss just as the expand become profitable the harassing medivac should be in action and in this case the protoss will be forced to get back all his troop to be able to cover his main and natural.
The T can then expand and get better map positionning so he will not be FF-choked anymore, and get a fight without being at a disavantage. At this point I really find the healing ability of the medivac really decisive. The P should not have that many collossus and without templars to feedback them the bioball gets really resillient. You'd need shitloads of Zealot to soak up the damage of the bioball after getting EMPed and enough collossus to burn down those MM quicly enough not to get overrun.
On July 04 2010 02:35 Duelist wrote: @Ancient I think it's pretty obvious what he meant by the stalkers and sentries' afirmation. With an EMP on them, both go to 50% of their total health, and sentries become totally useless as their main utility, since the patch when their damage was hugely nerfed, are their spells. So an EMP on top of those 2 units makes them lose more than 50% of their utility. In my opinion, that qualifies as horrible.
I'm slightly insulted by these petitio principii arguments. Couldn't you guys have thought a bit further and analyzed the scenario before committing to this ridiculous conclusion? What qualifies an EMP hitting a stalker and sentry as horrible?
Oh wait, just because they lose their shields and the sentry, its mana? Is that all you guys wanted to say? Or would it be better to have the emp hit an immortal and a high templar?
Having an emp hit ANY protoss unit is nothing to celebrate over, so according to your logic the protoss should have made an all zealot army so 3 zealots can take 150 damage in shield?
Let's look at some numbers: A ghost is a risky investment at only 100hp, and costing 150/150. A sentry and stalker costs only 25 minerals more, having a combined hp of 120 deshielded. The EMP radius is small, so I agree a poorly placed protoss ball will take a lot of flak. But assuming a decent protoss positioning in which a stalker, a sentry, and maybe another t1 unit gets EMP'ed, it's still not extremely unfavorable for the protoss!
What about 10 stalkers focus firing a ghost, does that make the ghost a horrible investment? In my opinion, saying stalker and sentry is horrible against ghost emp is like saying hydra ling was bad against psi storm in BW -- yeah its never great to get hit by psi storm but hydra ling still can get the job done.
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote: people say emp is OP cuz it takes away shields. shields are only half the protoss health the actual units gotta deal the rest of the damage. storms KILL units not just take away half health
storm does damage over time.. 80dmg over 4 secs? any decent terran with average reflexes would move it 0-2 secs (2 MAX if theyre decent) after being stormed. that means what only 10-40 dmg
lets compare it with emp now, EMP does 100 dmg to shields and takes away energy WHICH is a huge factor, rendering casters useless.. 100 damage to protoss shields is like health anyway so your argument is flawed saying that storm KILLS and EMP doesnt wtf? EMP killing off shields is still damage.. unless they retreat to recharge shields - terran is at a huge advantage here if protoss retreats, having map control and picking off units with marauder slow also note that emp is instant and cant be dodged (well i think it DOES have a projectile but its so fukn fast u cant dodge it) but the main point is that its also instant while storm is NOT
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote: without emp terran can't fight protoss when going bio cuz collosus and HTs absolutely stomp bio with just a tiny handful of them. and now that mechs nerfed bio seems the only decent option in TvP.
of course colossus and HTs are going to stomp bio, look how further in the tech tree it is to get colossi and HT (with necessary upgrades: storm, amulet, thermal lances) oh wait did you want the game to be mass tier1 battles? MECH is still definitely viable wtf.. please remember tanks dont overkill which is the main reason why tanks are so good..
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote: yall protoss just need to learn how to cast storm properly. it's all about who outplays the other. whoever is manageing to pay attention first and cast their spell better will win. no imbalance just whoever is better will win like how any game should be.
thats right guys, there is no imbalance, its perfect!
On July 04 2010 02:02 Raiznhell wrote: ghosts and HTs should no be changed at all. tho i think mech should be refitted to handle TvP better cuz bio vs protoss seems weird to me.
EPT
At this point I just hide some void ray tech, boost void rays out and GG him by blowing his choke and moving my ground army in as support against marines. Remember that if he expos and you're massing voids, you have a great timing window to push him. You can alternativly use templar if you see lots of marines or vikings.
