PvT way to deal with EMP - Page 23

On July 02 2010 15:57 Sylvr wrote:
Stop with all of this anecdotal bullshit, and mostly, stop this redundant repetition.

On July 02 2010 15:57 Sylvr wrote:
It blows my mind that this thread is still going. Not only that, but when I read the latest 2 pages or so, I saw all of the same exact arguments as the first ~6 pages including people's pipe dreams of what they wish EMP would cost. IF Bliz ever decided that EMP was imba as it is, they'll figure out their own way to adjust it. Stop wasting space in this thread with suggestions.

To prove that EMP is imbalanced, you would have to show that it is almost always the best use of the time, resources, and APM that it takes to utilize it over other strategies (like old roaches pretty much were), and that it pushes the win/loss ratio of the match-up too far into Terran's favor. When going EMP against Protoss becomes the "only logical choice" rather than just being "a good idea usually", then maybe you can cry IMBA and Momma-Blizzard can come and make it all better (by their own means, not yours).

This is objectivity. This is Science. Stop with all of this anecdotal bullshit, and mostly, stop this redundant repetition.

On July 02 2010 07:51 Interfect wrote:


I laugh at the fact you didn't include the fact it takes 2 tech buildings (Twilight Council, Templar Archives) as well as the fact you have to upgrade to get storm. You obviously never touched Protoss at all. Also note that you only need about 1 or 2 ghost while toss needs a lot more templars since their pretty useless if they can't storm.

The Terran reaction time thing made me laugh.

Splitting Casters, yes it's a solution, but the fact that they move slowly and tend to clump up easily make it not hard but a bit difficult to split up the casters when moving the toss army to engage the terran army. Splitting up casters is more of a way to prepare and wait for the terran to engage you sort of thing.

To all those that play Terran and argue that Toss have it easy, try playing Toss for once.
To all those that play Toss and argue that Terran have it easy, try playing Terran for once.
To all the others that haven't played either of the races, try playing them both for once.

On June 11 2010 17:41 Sylvr wrote:


Don't exaggerate. Conc shells will maybe take out a few Zealots (roughly equal to the number of Marauders he has, likely less since they might not all get an attack off if your reaction time is good) while you run away. It's better than staying and losing your entire army.

On July 02 2010 15:26 scojac wrote:


You could say the same thing about void rays. Toss players can just 1+a until the void ray is charged, terran needs tremendous viking/marine micro in order to fend it off. If the terran messes up and lets the void rays charge up, he's in for a lot of punishment.

I wouldn't say void rays are imba. They are hard for a T with little micro to fend off. And I would say the same if you think of a toss player against ghosts.

On July 02 2010 15:23 scojac wrote:


You're absolutely wrong about this. Ghosts are incredibly expensive for T during the early game. Not only do you have to sacrifice gas to A: get the ghost academy and B: get the ghost, you also sacrifice TIME. you can't build any marauders for 2-3 production cycles. also, that ghost has to sit there for awhile just to get off one EMP. adding a ghost in early doesn't automatically make your marine force able to withstand a huge gateway rush.

When you're basically -1 tech lab, -1 rax early game, your forces are significantly reduced. it's incredibly risky and as T you're banking on being able to just hold off a toss push until you can get a few EMPs saved up, maybe an upgrade or 2 form the tech lab (also much more costly when going for ghosts now) before you can push out/expand.

Also, ghosts just can't be massed the way templar can later on. There's a point where toss is vulnerable to EMP, but this is a small window. Early game, toss is advantaged in terms of map control. Late game, depending on a number of variables, toss can have a clear advantage. Map control for toss, I would argue, is much more difficult against terran mech than a bio/emp build (which relies more on mobility than control). As far as I see it, terran has a window to move out with a push and try and gain some traction after the early game. If he is able to contain/damage the toss, he can turn these gains into a victory. There's nothing wrong with this kind of a match-up. I find it to be one of the more enjoyable ones, actually, as a random player.

On July 02 2010 22:59 xDaunt wrote:


Are you actually arguing that a terran's investment into ghost tech is comparable to a protoss's investment into colossus or high templar tech?

On July 02 2010 23:30 arb wrote:


Even trying or sounding like youre comparing Ghost investment into storm/colossus investment is ridiculous

On July 02 2010 12:53 zekezagura wrote:


Balancing is not done by a long shot.
Other than that your post seems really good .

On July 02 2010 15:49 Doko wrote:
"Early zealot pressure would be effective"

uuuuuh? how do you expect a zealot army to break through a wall of buildings and still have enough punch to kill the ranged units inside that can kite you or hide behind a wall of scvs?

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Seriously don't understand why emp doesn't require a research to cast. Make it 50/50 but the delay would be sufficient to give protoss a decent chance to tech to something that can deal with MMG on equal terms.

Just to be clear, EMP isn't necessarily the root of the problem. It's just one, if not the most obvious, of the contributing factors to why a ghost/bio build is so strong against protoss. Easy access to stim and combat shields are just as much to blame, and perhaps making those more difficult to get would be a better solution than nerfing EMP (the argument against this would be that changing these upgrades would disturb TvZ too much, but then again [not that I know anything about TvZ] the changes might be good there, too). By comparison, protoss has a much more difficult time accessing its higher techs and basic unit upgrades.

On July 03 2010 01:09 Duelist wrote:
Hum... how can the protoss retreat safely after the EMP when stimmed MM outrun most protoss units plus concussive shells' help and the fact that the tanking slow zealots had to be at the front, so if the protoss decides he should retreat the zealots which were half way on the path to the terrans army now have to go back?

On July 02 2010 22:59 xDaunt wrote:


Are you actually arguing that a terran's investment into ghost tech is comparable to a protoss's investment into colossus or high templar tech?

On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:


Yes, I am making this argument. Call it ridiculous without any backing information all you want, getting a ghost out in time for an early push (the Brat_OK build) is the extremely effective timing, and only timing I believe could be considered imbalanced. Templar are a natural transition later on for toss, because you should already have massed a bunch of gateways anyway. I fail to see how not having an extra sentry or stalker here or there would impact the game incredibly past the opening minutes.

To counter the argument about this timing imbalance, high templar take longer BUT ghosts also take a looong time to build. It hurts terran's overall macro production, but you do this in exchange for a spell that has a powerful timing window.

I'm not saying that it isn't more expensive money-wise for toss to tech up later on, but that the money means more because terran has to invest so early - you effectively need to make an entire opneing around it instead of being able to transition like a toss can into casters.

With this kind of investment, you could have a tank with seige out or early air for harass. Unless terran has good control and timing, toss can fairly easily run away from an emp and regenerate shields. It's a strong spell, but needs to be used well and carefully planned in order to work.

On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
Yes, I am making this argument. Call it ridiculous without any backing information all you want, getting a ghost out in time for an early push (the Brat_OK build) is the extremely effective timing, and only timing I believe could be considered imbalanced.

On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
Templar are a natural transition later on for toss, because you should already have massed a bunch of gateways anyway. I fail to see how not having an extra sentry or stalker here or there would impact the game incredibly past the opening minutes.

On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
To counter the argument about this timing imbalance, high templar take longer BUT ghosts also take a looong time to build. It hurts terran's overall macro production, but you do this in exchange for a spell that has a powerful timing window.

On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
With this kind of investment, you could have a tank with seige out or early air for harass.

On July 03 2010 05:47 scojac wrote:
Unless terran has good control and timing, toss can fairly easily run away from an emp and regenerate shields. It's a strong spell, but needs to be used well and carefully planned in order to work.

On July 03 2010 06:45 whoopadeedoo wrote:
The only way to dodge an EMP is to mind-read.