EPTPvT way to deal with EMP - Page 22
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better. Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around. Ugh. At least make an attempt to understand the issue before you post something like this. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
On July 02 2010 01:06 Looky wrote: protoss can start with so many openings against terran. Void rays, proxy, dts, etc. Emp doesnt imbalance the whole match up. And terrans cant open in various ways vs protoss ? fyi terrans have the most openings than every other race by far at this stage , the only viable opening vs terrans as toss is mass stalkers - sentries everything else is so easily counter | ||
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NoM.NoM
Sweden7 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better. Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around. Ugh. At least make an attempt to understand the issue before you post something like this. Feel free to explain to me what I've missed. What I see are a bunch of players saying that emp is op because they have no proper response to it. I just posted a couple o comments on that (I hope you noticed the irony) and asked you to state to me why emp is so op again. Your answer doesn't contribute in the slightest. Edit: typos. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 02 2010 01:52 NoM.NoM wrote: Feel free to explain to me what I've missed. What I see are a bunch of players saying that emp is op because they have no proper response to it. I just posted a couple o comments on that (I hope you noticed the irony) and asked you to state to me why emp is so op again. Your answer doesn't contribute in the slightest. Edit: typos. I don't think anyone is going to disagree with your characterization of many of the posts in this thread. However, I think most people are going to disagree with your point that EMP is not overpowered because "EMP is more expensive" than storm and templar tech. Yes, ghosts cost 100 minerals more than high templar. However, and as is discussed above by a number of posters, this difference in mineral cost is inconsequential, especially when one considers the difference in gas cost to get EMP versus templar tech and storm. The real problem with ghosts and EMP is that a terran can field a unit that rapes all protoss units with an AoE attack before the protoss even has an opportunity to develop a particularly good counter. Is it unbeatable? No, of course not. However, the advantage that the terran has is one that will be decisive if the protoss makes one mistake with troop positioning and micromanagement in battle. That's the problem with EMP as it stands. | ||
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NoM.NoM
Sweden7 Posts
On July 02 2010 02:04 xDaunt wrote: I don't think anyone is going to disagree with your characterization of many of the posts in this thread. However, I think most people are going to disagree with your point that EMP is not overpowered because "EMP is more expensive" than storm and templar tech. Yes, ghosts cost 100 minerals more than high templar. However, and as is discussed above by a number of posters, this difference in mineral cost is inconsequential, especially when one considers the difference in gas cost to get EMP versus templar tech and storm. The real problem with ghosts and EMP is that a terran can field a unit that rapes all protoss units with an AoE attack before the protoss even has an opportunity to develop a particularly good counter. Is it unbeatable? No, of course not. However, the advantage that the terran has is one that will be decisive if the protoss makes one mistake with troop positioning and micromanagement in battle. That's the problem with EMP as it stands. It is indeed true that templar tech comes later and is more expensve then ghost tech, that is undeniable. However, once it comes it is much more powerful, and investing heavy in ghosts from beginning (As you said a terran could do) will result in an inferior army easily ripped apart by some cheap zealots. That is just my opinion however, 150/150 + Ghost academy is quite an investment early on anyways, and an emp will only cause those zealots 50 shield dmg. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 02 2010 06:02 MythicalMage wrote: The way I see it. . .It's the same with "Terran mech is imba cause running hydras into it results in me losing," and other things of that nature. I'd imagine that people complained the same way with Dark Swarm and other things like that. You just have to work around them. There's a big difference between being forced to work around something in the early-mid game being forced to work around something in the late game. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 02 2010 06:07 xDaunt wrote: There's a big difference between being forced to work around something in the early-mid game being forced to work around something in the late game. I'll give you that. But a ghost is a major investment early game. Early zealot pressure would be effective, as would early pheonix pressure. Additionally, you can sort of avoid it by spreading out units and retreating. If a fair number of your sentries don't get EMP'd, just FF and retreat. If they do, then hope you can still retreat. >>. Actually, Blink Stalkers might be a good counter as blink doesn't have an energy cost, just a CC, but that's more midgame ish. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 02 2010 06:15 MythicalMage wrote: I'll give you that. But a ghost is a major investment early game. Early zealot pressure would be effective, as would early pheonix pressure. Additionally, you can sort of avoid it by spreading out units and retreating. If a fair number of your sentries don't get EMP'd, just FF and retreat. If they do, then hope you can still retreat. >>. Actually, Blink Stalkers might be a good counter as blink doesn't have an energy cost, just a CC, but that's more midgame ish. Ghosts are not expensive investments. A colossus is an expensive investment. A high templar is an expensive investment. Ghosts aren't even close. More importantly, ghosts are not risky investments in TvP. In fact, as multiple terrans have shown during the beta, ghost/marine openings are remarkably durable against ANY protoss opening. Sure, the terran may not be able to go on the offensive right away against some protoss openings, but the terran can still very easily bunker up and take his natural with a ghost/marine opening. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 02 2010 07:22 MythicalMage wrote: So because it works it's imbalanced? I don't catch your meaning. >>. I, personally, have never seen it against early VR or Phoenix pressure. I don't think I've ever seen it against early zealot pressure, even. It just seems to me that people are assuming that because what they're doing right now doesn't beat it, it means it can't be beat. There are tons of unexplored options out there, early chargelots, early blink stalkers, things of that nature. I'd also like to see a Phoenix timing push against a marine ghost build. He may be able to EMP your army or your phoenixes, but he likely can't EMP both with the limited shots, and with a soon to be lifted ghost. If what you're doing doesn't work, it doesn't mean something's imbalanced, necessarily. It just means you haven't figured out what you need to do to beat it. If you'd read some of the earlier posts in thread (even those that have been posted just recently), you'd find answers to everything in your post. For example, do you really think that no one has tried early chargelots? Every protoss knows how to beat a ghost/marine opening. That's the not the issue. The issue is the degree of difficulty in beating it. "Imbalance" means more than just "Race A autoloses to Race B if Race B does X." | ||
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Interfect
Canada52 Posts
On July 02 2010 00:45 NoM.NoM wrote: Everyone complaining about EMP seems to be bypassing the fact that ghost are way more expensive than high templars and sentres, hence they obvously should be a little better. Some other general themes of the posts: * Terrans apparently have a reaction time that could just aswell be non existant, since the range 9 feedback would never work vs a range 10 EMP. * Terrans always move all their forces out of a storm within the first second of its duration. * It's not an option for the protoss players to spread their forces, so the EMP will OBVIOUSLY hit ALL the caster. I mean: Who would want to spread their casters vs. ghosts? :s Think about those and now state to me why EMP is OP. It is more expensive the the protoss counterparts and can easily be worked around. I laugh at the fact you didn't include the fact it takes 2 tech buildings (Twilight Council, Templar Archives) as well as the fact you have to upgrade to get storm. You obviously never touched Protoss at all. Also note that you only need about 1 or 2 ghost while toss needs a lot more templars since their pretty useless if they can't storm. The Terran reaction time thing made me laugh. Splitting Casters, yes it's a solution, but the fact that they move slowly and tend to clump up easily make it not hard but a bit difficult to split up the casters when moving the toss army to engage the terran army. Splitting up casters is more of a way to prepare and wait for the terran to engage you sort of thing. To all those that play Terran and argue that Toss have it easy, try playing Toss for once. To all those that play Toss and argue that Terran have it easy, try playing Terran for once. To all the others that haven't played either of the races, try playing them both for once. | ||
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Calamity
Canada161 Posts
My thoughts is that EMP should get the energy cost raised or needs to be researched in the academy for 100/100 or 150/150. EMP is quite good against most toss units and wouldn't mind paying for it. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
Make EMP a projectile. This will increase the micro on both sides and do away with the "click - herp derp all your mana are belong to me" which is the gripe of most of the more sane posters. It would also make it easier to counter the early EMP whilst the later is less effected due to more attention requiring actions being present at lategame than earlygame. The 2 above points is speaking from a merely gaming pov, plenty of other arguments like increased watchability and equal pay for equal work (which is one of blizzards stated "balancing" measures) are 2 other VERY important points. With that said, I do agree that it will be interesting to see if they have done anything about it when phase 2 hits, and until then it is hardly worth discussing this more since pretty much every thinkable argument has already been presented. | ||
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Interfect
Canada52 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 02 2010 07:40 xDaunt wrote: If you'd read some of the earlier posts in thread (even those that have been posted just recently), you'd find answers to everything in your post. For example, do you really think that no one has tried early chargelots? Every protoss knows how to beat a ghost/marine opening. That's the not the issue. The issue is the degree of difficulty in beating it. "Imbalance" means more than just "Race A autoloses to Race B if Race B does X." Really now? Because as far as I know running your medic marine into dark swarm caused you to automatically lose. Same with running your medic marine into lurkers. I'm just trying to open up some unthought of ideas. We should wait until beta phase 2 comes out to see if they made any changes instead of arguing. Plus "discussing" about EMP would be better than trying to prove that's imba or not. As far as I know, Balancing is done, and phase 2 is just for B.Net stuff. My thoughts is that EMP should get the energy cost raised or needs to be researched in the academy for 100/100 or 150/150. EMP is quite good against most toss units and wouldn't mind paying for it. The strength of EMP is the ability to get it out quick, and even as a counter to DTs. Increasing the cost of the energy, however, seems completely reasonable. Increasing it to say 100 wouldn't break the game, but it would slow down pushes a bit. Make EMP a projectile. EMP is a projectile. A fast moving one, but it is one. I'm even pretty sure you can FB before the EMP hits and take the Mana before the EMP mana drain happens on the Ghost. It's not a long animation, but it is a projectile. How about making it so it doesn't take away all the energy of units. Like how emp no longer takes away all shields, why not set it so one emp can only take away 50 or 75 energy and maybe increasing the AOE a bit to make it a bit more fair for the Terran player. Since the main problem of emp is rendering templars completely useless. That seems reasonable. Definitely don't take away the shield amount, otherwise it'd be useless late game. But lowering the energy amount to say 100 or so seems decent. | ||
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zekezagura
United States38 Posts
As far as I know, Balancing is done, and phase 2 is just for B.Net stuff. Balancing is not done by a long shot. Other than that your post seems really good  . | ||
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scojac
United States99 Posts
On July 02 2010 07:11 xDaunt wrote: Ghosts are not expensive investments. A colossus is an expensive investment. A high templar is an expensive investment. Ghosts aren't even close. More importantly, ghosts are not risky investments in TvP. In fact, as multiple terrans have shown during the beta, ghost/marine openings are remarkably durable against ANY protoss opening. Sure, the terran may not be able to go on the offensive right away against some protoss openings, but the terran can still very easily bunker up and take his natural with a ghost/marine opening. You're absolutely wrong about this. Ghosts are incredibly expensive for T during the early game. Not only do you have to sacrifice gas to A: get the ghost academy and B: get the ghost, you also sacrifice TIME. you can't build any marauders for 2-3 production cycles. also, that ghost has to sit there for awhile just to get off one EMP. adding a ghost in early doesn't automatically make your marine force able to withstand a huge gateway rush. When you're basically -1 tech lab, -1 rax early game, your forces are significantly reduced. it's incredibly risky and as T you're banking on being able to just hold off a toss push until you can get a few EMPs saved up, maybe an upgrade or 2 form the tech lab (also much more costly when going for ghosts now) before you can push out/expand. Also, ghosts just can't be massed the way templar can later on. There's a point where toss is vulnerable to EMP, but this is a small window. Early game, toss is advantaged in terms of map control. Late game, depending on a number of variables, toss can have a clear advantage. Map control for toss, I would argue, is much more difficult against terran mech than a bio/emp build (which relies more on mobility than control). As far as I see it, terran has a window to move out with a push and try and gain some traction after the early game. If he is able to contain/damage the toss, he can turn these gains into a victory. There's nothing wrong with this kind of a match-up. I find it to be one of the more enjoyable ones, actually, as a random player. | ||
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scojac
United States99 Posts
On July 02 2010 07:40 xDaunt wrote: Every protoss knows how to beat a ghost/marine opening. That's the not the issue. The issue is the degree of difficulty in beating it. "Imbalance" means more than just "Race A autoloses to Race B if Race B does X." You could say the same thing about void rays. Toss players can just 1+a until the void ray is charged, terran needs tremendous viking/marine micro in order to fend it off. If the terran messes up and lets the void rays charge up, he's in for a lot of punishment. I wouldn't say void rays are imba. They are hard for a T with little micro to fend off. And I would say the same if you think of a toss player against ghosts. | ||
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