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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On June 29 2010 14:13 Monkeyz_Rule wrote: Well actually you would need 3-4 good emp shots to take down a group of archons.  I was just naming some units semi-randomly. XD. Probes are good against a lone ghost for christ's sake. | ||
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Interfect
Canada52 Posts
I mentioned a build against a bio, and you reply with "well I can go a Mech Ghost Build and kill that build". Dude of course the mech ghost build counters my build, but the thing, in my case the Terran went bio and not the Mech Ghost Build. Saying "What if i don't go bio, then your build wouldn't work!" is just plain stupid. The thing is that toss player scouts you first and decides whether or not to do this build, it's not a what if. I'm am well aware this build is not invincible, and clearly it's only used for certain circumstances. I'm also not saying that the player should stick with this build the entire game, instead they should change according to how the opponent is playing. All you say is what if, what if. This build is not for a what if, it's for when the Terran is definitely going bio and knowing so is achieved though something called scouting. Did i clear up the rest of the misunderstandings? By the way, the only to really counter ghost depends on what units the ghost is with. There's no such build good against bio and mech at the same time. Transition from Colossus to Immortal: You've heard of plays from sc1 like the Fake Double or w/e right? Where you make one building to trick your opponent into thinking your doing something you're actually not doing. In this case you trick the opponent into thinking that you're making more Colossus thus preparing more vikings when you're actually making immortals instead. Of course it won't work if the Terran knows, it would no longer be a trick. Do you get it now? Ghost counter immortals = True. But the thing is that you trick the Terran into making vikings and less marines, ghost, medivacs and marauders. I'm sure your just gonna end up posting another post going " well, there's this other build i could've done and then your build wouldn't work!", these thoughts don't appear until after the match when you have lost. If could've done another build, I could also do anyother build, plain and simple as that. | ||
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jerry507
United States11 Posts
Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100 Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2 Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups. Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On June 30 2010 07:58 Interfect wrote: Alright this is it, and it's only on one small portion of your bloated post, and I'm just saying this for the fifth time. If there aren't colossi, then you get scouting/harassing vikings. Yay. And if they don't come, then you get medivacs. This doesn't break the bio build, and you have just as many units as before. Actually, you may be able to squeeze in more ghosts if you cut the medivacs. Medivac: 100/100. Viking: 150/75. Regardless, sorry this has become uncivil. And I'm sorry if I misunderstood your posts. All this talk of counters is nonsense. Omg really, you really want to start this endless argument don't you. We can go on and on with "I got this build that beats your build", and a "well i got another build that beats this build" and on and on. I mentioned a build against a bio, and you reply with "well I can go a Mech Ghost Build and kill that build". Dude of course the mech ghost build counters my build, but the thing, in my case the Terran went bio and not the Mech Ghost Build. Saying "What if i don't go bio, then your build wouldn't work!" is just plain stupid. The thing is that toss player scouts you first and decides whether or not to do this build, it's not a what if. I'm am well aware this build is not invincible, and clearly it's only used for certain circumstances. I'm also not saying that the player should stick with this build the entire game, instead they should change according to how the opponent is playing. All you say is what if, what if. This build is not for a what if, it's for when the Terran is definitely going bio and knowing so is achieved though something called scouting. Did i clear up the rest of the misunderstandings? By the way, the only to really counter ghost depends on what units the ghost is with. There's no such build good against bio and mech at the same time. Transition from Colossus to Immortal: You've heard of plays from sc1 like the Fake Double or w/e right? Where you make one building to trick your opponent into thinking your doing something you're actually not doing. In this case you trick the opponent into thinking that you're making more Colossus thus preparing more vikings when you're actually making immortals instead. Of course it won't work if the Terran knows, it would no longer be a trick. Do you get it now? Ghost counter immortals = True. But the thing is that you trick the Terran into making vikings and less marines, ghost, medivacs and marauders. I'm sure your just gonna end up posting another post going " well, there's this other build i could've done and then your build wouldn't work!", these thoughts don't appear until after the match when you have lost. If could've done another build, I could also do anyother build, plain and simple as that. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On June 30 2010 13:30 jerry507 wrote: Templar - 50/150/2 in 55s Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100 Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2 Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups. Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well. Thanks! Both are also produced at a building you already have, (Rax/Warp gate), and both have reasonable tech paths. (I consider templar reasonable due to the need for templar archives for upgrades, and the awesomeness of charge.) And to add to what you said, when the protoss push into a position they can't back out of, the Templar are in range to Feedback. It's nice to have some numbers. | ||
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Neptuneajax
Australia206 Posts
Why not try going quite a lot of sentries and hallucinating a bunch of HT's. I bet there aren't a lot of Terran's who would give up the oppurtunity to EMP a grouped up bunch of 4-5 HT's. Once they've blown it, move your real HT's in and storm away. Also I keeping Ht's in warp prisms a la reavers in shuttles to protect them and make them more mobile might work too  | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
On June 30 2010 13:30 jerry507 wrote: Templar - 50/150/2 in 55s Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100 Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2 Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups. Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well. Are you really trying to say that a ghost costing 100 minerals more than a templar, when it is the gas that is the limiting factor in pretty much any terran build makes them "far more expensive"? Their EMP removes 30-50% of the health of the army - saying it doesn't do any damage simply because it can be regenerated is like saying that zerg is invulnerable because every point of damage done to them can be regenerated. Surely you can't mean that? You also disregard the COMPLETE energy wipe which is actually the biggest problem about it since it means no way to escape (no FF to stop marauders with shells) and no way to take on the terran army (GL without any storms). Storm has a range of 6 with a radius of 1.5 - that means it'll at BEST have a range of 7,5 - not 9! This means that my templars combined with their slow move has to be pretty close to the army, and since ghosts are so gas heavy, the bulk of my army will consist of zlots, a unit which it is pretty pointless to EMP in the first place, but if you want to waste it, be my guest. However, losing because you EMP'ed the lots isn't a valid argument in a discussion regarding wheter or not EMP is too easy to use for it's effectiveness - it is simply bad play. Have you got any other misinformation to spread? | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On June 30 2010 15:16 Neptuneajax wrote: I don't know if this has been suggested in this post cuz I only had 5 minutes to read the OP. Why not try going quite a lot of sentries and hallucinating a bunch of HT's. I bet there aren't a lot of Terran's who would give up the oppurtunity to EMP a grouped up bunch of 4-5 HT's. Once they've blown it, move your real HT's in and storm away. Also I keeping Ht's in warp prisms a la reavers in shuttles to protect them and make them more mobile might work too Hallucination is really an underuesed ability. I think a lot could be done with it, especially early game, and especially with it that low in the tech tree. | ||
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Greth
Belgium318 Posts
SC1: Try not to gets your units into a single file or your goons to bump into each other. SC2: Try to get your units into a single file or your stalkers to stay away from each other. I think eventually this same problem will represent itself with fungal growth (and I think its the reason the lurker isn't here). | ||
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On June 30 2010 13:30 jerry507 wrote: Templar - 50/150/2 in 55s Ghost - 150/150/2 in 40s Storm research - 200/200 Amulet - 150/150 Reactor - 100/100 Storm - 20dps for 4 seconds - 75 energy - range 9 radius 1.5 EMP - 100 shields instantly - 75 energy - range 10 radius 2 Terran bio unit heal rate - 0 (13.5hp/s with medivac) Protoss shield heal rate - 2 per second after 10 seconds Based on that alone, and excepting the cost of teching to them, Ghosts are far more expensive to procure and their EMP doesn't actually do any damage. Protoss shields regen very quickly. A zealot would take 10+2*25=60 game seconds to regen their entire shields and at fast (140%) that's just 42 actual seconds, a unit production cycle. It's not an obvious tradeoff, but emp is far from a "sure win." There have been plenty of pro level games where a terran has gone ghosts and gotten EMPs off. The protoss player... backs away. If your opponent micros, he's not going to engage you after you've EMPed him. He'll back off and reengage later. If you hold your EMP, then you face getting stormed depending on who is quicker to the draw. Storm still has range 9, so there is no need for your templar to be IN your army to hit the enemy line and you need to have enough ghosts to hit both groups. Given the pro level experience, I remain unconvinced. Obviously Blizzard does as well. Most ridiculous post I've ever seen. Do you realise how strong a 100 damage radius 2 insta-nuke is? So if we were about to clash armies, and you EMP me, you expect me to run back and sit around for 42 seconds? Really? That defeats the entire purpose of timing pushes, and only makes your timing pushes that much more effective. You're also ignoring the blindingly obvious fact that HTs cannot attack while Ghosts can. Ghosts also have Cloak, Nuke and Snipe whereas HTs have a skill that can't even reach the Ghost in time. And a skill the morph into arguably the most useless unit in the game. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
There are essentially two situations you can come across EMP. 1) Late-game, Ghosts vs HTs. This is generally a tossup based on skill, and pure dumb luck. Are the Ghosts cloaked? Does the Protoss have an Observer handy? Do the Ghosts get their shots off before the HTs feedback them? Can the Protoss player target the Ghosts in the crowd? Etc etc, blah blah blah, back and forth, EMP is OP this and Psi Storm is OP that. I personally don't have a problem with this. 2) Early-game, Ghosts vs absolutely no chance of HTs and you just have to take it up the tail-pipe. Just compare the Gas costs of reaching these units: Ghost: Tech Lab (25) + Academy (50) + Ghost (150) = 225 HT: Twilight Council (100) + Archives (200) + HT (150) = 450 And that's an HT without Psi Storm. An HT dedicated to just killing the Ghost. Add another 200 for that if you want to consider both units as equally useful. If you consider equal gas income on both sides (which I think is a fair assumption) neither side is neglecting other, important gas-guzzling units you can run into situations like this: Terran with a couple Medivacs (200), a couple of Ghosts (300), a couple of Marauders (50), Stim (100) and Conc shell (50) upgraded and a metric fuckton of Marines. Buildings needed: Barracks + Tech Lab (25), Academy (50), Factory (100), Barracks + Reactor (50), Starport (100) Units = 550 gas Tech = 150 gas Buildings = 325 gas Total = 1025 gas Now, the REAL question here, is what can the Protoss get with a similar amount of gas and how does he spot this strategy when its all being built behind a wall? Let's say 200 gas is spent on an Observer, just to spot this build. Let's also say we spot some Barracks pumping Marines and decide to get a few Sentries (300) and Stalkers (150) to compliment the Zealots were building with our minerals and we got Warp Gate tech (50). I think that number Sentries and Stalkers there is reasonable for a typical game. So, we just spent 650 gas on those rudimentary units alone. That leaves us with 325 gas on Tier 2 units. At best, you'll get Zealot charge for 100 + 200 and maybe Ground armour through a Forge for another 100 later on, but because the nature of upgrades is you need to spend the gas early in order to use them in a push like this. If he starts marching out of his base with that simple ground army, COMPLETE WITH STIMS, I MIGHT ADD (getting Stims out of an already made Tech Lab is a tad easier than spending your last 300 gas waiting for a Council to finish and Charge to research), you might not even have those upgrades done in time. Any hope of matching those Ghosts with an equal number of HTs is completely out of the window. Therefore, you just have to take it up the tailpipe. HTs are really only an option if the Terran sits on his ass for an exorbitant amount of time. Personally, I think all this means that Ghosts need to go back to 200 gas and Stims back up to 150. Terran can build a stupid strong anti-Protoss infantry force with such a paltry amount of gas it boggles the mind. Edit: You can compare the minerals, too (assume the same amount spent on workers and supply): 2 Marauders (200), 2 Ghosts (300), 2 Medivacs (200), 2 Barracks (300), Tech Lab (25), Reactor (50), Factory (150), Starport (150), Stim (100), Conc Shell (50) = 1325 + 50 per Marine 3 Sentries (150), 3 Stalkers (375), Observer (50), 2 Gateways (300), Cyber Core (150), Robo Fac (200), Council (150), Warp Tech (50), Charge (200) = 1625 + 100 per Zealot The Terran can chuck a few more Marauders, or another Barracks in there (more likely, to create the kind of production you want for a timing push), no problem. Its really THAT close a call between these two forces. If the Protoss even attempts to get HTs, he's probably going to get fucked, unless the Terran decides to play a campathon. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
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Jsingles
United States66 Posts
The late game Ghosts vs HT is not imbalanced... By the time I have HT out, I could also have any other combination of protoss unit, and I rely simply on my positioning and my play to defeat the terran player. As far as I am concerned, the Terran stim timing pushing with a ghost or two is the only ghost balance problem that currently exists, though I do feel that it is quite substantial. I really don't know what the balance team was thinking with the stim upgrade cost buff... To win against that, in my personal experiences (and I am by no means a "pro") I have to either a) completely outplay my opponent skill wise through better macro/micro b) use VERY early 2-3 gate aggression before it gets to that point c) somehow delay my opponents timing push long enough to get out colossi and kite their army well enough to avoid getting EMP's on the colossi While it's not an impossible situation, it is an uphill battle, and I do feel that the cost of stims right now is a little ridiculous... Also, to whoever suggested that being EMP'd is fine as long as you just back up and regen the shields has obviously never played Protoss.... or an opponent with enough skill to realize how crippling that is and push right in to kill the Protoss player, whose sentries are useless now, by the way.... Also, Terran mech can be repaired and medivacs can heal bio, so its not like protoss and zerg are the only ones who can recover health. If your marines get fungal growth'd its NO BIG DEAL right? just go heal them all! That argument is just completely ridiculous. | ||
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indczn
United States18 Posts
warpgate 50 sentry 100 twilight 100 archives 200 2 archons 600. 4 warpgates and a ton of zealots(minerals permitting). Scout, watchtowers, etc. Be ready to flank(1 archon w/ each group), or trap at ramp. Progress into killing him, or teching to storm/amulet/charge, whichever first depending on his composition. Feedback if he tries dropping. Expand if he turtles. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On July 01 2010 04:37 indczn wrote: stalker 50 gas warpgate 50 sentry 100 twilight 100 archives 200 2 archons 600. 4 warpgates and a ton of zealots(minerals permitting). Scout, watchtowers, etc. Be ready to flank(1 archon w/ each group), or trap at ramp. Progress into killing him, or teching to storm/amulet/charge, whichever first depending on his composition. Feedback if he tries dropping. Expand if he turtles. You still need to scout it, which is a 100 (Hallucination) or 200 (Observer) gas investment in itself, unless that's your standard opener. And with that few Stalkers and Sentries, there's every likelihood you're going to get ploughed over by a simple M&M push, though I suppose you can pump some extras from your Warp Gates with all that spare gas you'll have accumulating as you save up for HTs. You still have a horrendous shortage of Sentries and no Zealot charge, even if you do end up building that force. So he could just kite your ass to death. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On July 01 2010 04:37 indczn wrote: stalker 50 gas warpgate 50 sentry 100 twilight 100 archives 200 2 archons 600. 4 warpgates and a ton of zealots(minerals permitting). Scout, watchtowers, etc. Be ready to flank(1 archon w/ each group), or trap at ramp. Progress into killing him, or teching to storm/amulet/charge, whichever first depending on his composition. Feedback if he tries dropping. Expand if he turtles. I'd love to see a replay of this. My gut reaction is that a terran would mow down your zealots without charge. But hey, I'd be happy to be wrong. | ||
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indczn
United States18 Posts
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STS17
United States1817 Posts
On July 01 2010 05:18 indczn wrote: I'll reply in a bit. What was that then? | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
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youngminii
Australia7514 Posts
On July 01 2010 04:37 indczn wrote: stalker 50 gas warpgate 50 sentry 100 twilight 100 archives 200 2 archons 600. 4 warpgates and a ton of zealots(minerals permitting). Scout, watchtowers, etc. Be ready to flank(1 archon w/ each group), or trap at ramp. Progress into killing him, or teching to storm/amulet/charge, whichever first depending on his composition. Feedback if he tries dropping. Expand if he turtles. Dumbest composition I've ever heard of. | ||
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