PvT way to deal with EMP - Page 19

On June 16 2010 23:25 STS17 wrote:
MangoTango he is referring to the fact that any AoE spell became significantly more powerful purely because units "ball up" much better then in BW, therefore an AoE spell will hit many more targets (thus doing more net damage) then in the predecessor. To balance this, the effects of such spells must be diminished else they will simply do way too much damage.

I believe it is for this reason that the radius on Storm was reduced earlier in the beta.

On June 17 2010 14:35 SilverforceX wrote:


This is it. SC2 pathing is so efficient, aoe spells are devastating. Storm getting nerf to its current iteration is actually quite fine with me. It's effect isn't game breaking and allow ppl to micro out of it to reduce its effects. If anything, i think the research for storm should be cheaper/faster. Building a cybercore > twilight > archives is a long and costly investment.. requiring another two costly research is a bit overkill.

However, I don't get why EMP escaped the rebalancing, it's got a bigger aoe and even more devasting vs protoss than storm vs terran.

On June 16 2010 13:57 link0 wrote:


When the Toss is going for mass zealots and/or collossi.

1. A huge delay to your vikings will mean someone who goes for 1 base collossi attack will roll over you.

2. Marines + Ghosts will lose to chargelots + sentry shield (if they activate before attacking)



Note: I don't personally know if anything is OP or not and will not state my opinion about that. Just answering your question.

On June 29 2010 09:24 Interfect wrote:
Since the terran has this huge bio-mass, collosi would definately kill it along with the ghost with or without the emp being casted. If the terran player gets vikings, then getting a larger stalker/zealot ground army would make up for it. If the collosi are taken out, you still win because he needs to land the vikings while his ground army is demolished. The collosi would also have a few good shots before dying and he would have to fly his vikings away being chased by a giant protoss ground army. It's also kinda nice to stop collosi production and make immortals instead if you know the other guy is making vikings creating an other reason for the vikings not to land.

On June 29 2010 10:06 Interfect wrote:
You don't need 2-3 robos or 6+ warp gates.

Having 1/2 collosi with range upgrade and a good number of ground units would do well against the early biomass, and you can always use the ramp to your main and a forcefield. It's not that you make an army strong enough that emp doesn't matter, it's just that the biomass composition like that doesn't do well against an army with collosi.

If it's early game and they rushed for ghost or something, i would expect them to spend a lot of their gas on ghost and not have any gas remaining for marauders (or atleast a lot of them). Thus collosi will melt the marines and the ghost. This only requires one robo and a gateway. You'd probably be able to have 2 gateways at that time, but it's all good.

The thing about the vikings is because it takes time for the vikings to land and they can't hit ground while in air. So if you focus on producing gateway units and immortals while stopping collosi production (day9 mentioned something like this somewhere), when you engage the terran, their ground army is a lot smaller then your ground army.

That way you can mop the floor while the terran's vikings are still in the air. Even if the terran has emp, they still won't be able to deal enough damage because a large part of their army (vikings) aren't dealing damage. If the vikings landed before they you encounter them, then your leftover collosi would slaughter his army. Not to mention they're pretty bad against immortals with on the ground.

This is later in game and probably would have your natural up too. You would probally need 2 robo and 4-6 warp gates. It's kinda interesting how some terrans would make at least 1/3 of their army vikings if they see a collosus just to one-hit kill one.

On June 29 2010 10:36 trucejl wrote:
every unit in the game has a unit they dont wanna c on the other side, with the exception of ghost

On June 29 2010 10:41 MythicalMage wrote:

Sure, they do. Want me to go down the list?
Archon, carrier, HT(Arguably), phoenix, stalker, zealot. Thing is, even a collosus sucks horribly by itself. Same with a ghost or anything else.

On June 29 2010 10:23 MythicalMage wrote:
Warning I'm going to rip apart your post:
One or the other is pretty standard on two bases. 6 may be a little too low, and 3 may be a bit too high.
Ah, that's it. Well, what if they go ghost mech? Or ghost air or something ridiculous? More importantly, this counter mindset is really vulnerable, especially to the aforementioned vikings. Marines are better than marauders for DPS, but the whole colossi thing. If you're not straight defending, any less than 2 warp gates won't be very good. Regardless, marauders or not, any deviation from standard bio (An early starport or any mech) will run over that colossus, especially with ghost support. Anyhow, your argument that our counters are balanced cause your counters kill our counters is so flawed, I don't even feel like explaining.
Well, Mr. Counter guy, what about the fact that ghosts are the MAIN counter to immortals? As for army size, all this money spent on the robo bay is money that isn't units, thus, if he's macroing properly, he'll be bigger than you, and he'll have Stim/Shields/Concussive shells/the ghost upgrade, whilst you'll be lucky to get a forge upgrade. Well, the majority of his air force won't be vikings if he isn't an idiot. If there are colossi left, the vikings won't switch to ground mode, if your opponent is mildly competent. The majority of his air will be medivacs, assuming he's going bio. Those terrans are BAD. You can support 3-4 gates on one base so, late game, at least your numbers sound right.

In a bit of a bad mood, and I hate all this counter bullshit.

On June 29 2010 14:05 Sets wrote:
I honestly don't see Archons as viable counters to a bio+ghost push. One good EMP shot can take down a group of Archons. What's worse is if Terran has 1 or 2 more Ghosts in the group.

On June 29 2010 11:35 Interfect wrote:
Sigh... the first and second argument is invalid cause it's early game, before your even able to get an expansion. It's a one base rush to collossi against a one base terran rushing to get ghost. The best you can get at that time really is one robo and 2 gateways/warpgates. Economy won't support anymore unless you expand.

3rd argument, if they went to get ghost, how do they have the resources to get a factory and a starport at the same time you get a robo and a robo bay? Like honestly you gotta make a ghost academy, make the ghost, make the factory, and then make the starport, and then the viking or even a banshee while massing marines all at the same time i warp in a robo and a robo bay? I don't even know how you have the gas to support all that, not to mention the minerals to even expand for gas. Also is there really not even enough time to get a stalker or two? For the mech, a siege tank upgraded with siege mode? Did you even consider the time to get that after you teched all the way to ghost?

4th argument, how would you be able to shoot if you can't see up a ramp? Not only that you manage to tech all those buildings and get stim all at the same time?!?!?! something's not right here. Oh btw, marines melt to collossi fire. Especially if marine range is lower than the colossi range with upgrade. Don't forget the force field on ramp! Can't shoot what you can't see! Scan? There goes your mule but you still can't touch me.

5th argument, how does the terran suddenly have all these upgrades including the ghost upgrade with vikings as well as keep up army production with protoss with the same amount of bases. Hmmm.... i know the terran has mule but it doesn't create this much of a gap.

6th Argument, yes ghost are counter to immortals but only if partnered with other units like marauders and marines.

The only problem is the ai targeting the zealots which are raping them and stalkers there just to make life much worse. Sure you can target fire the immortals, but since you wanted more medivacs and less vikings, mind you, the collossi don't die instantly to a small handful of viking fire.You also make it sound like the cost of a robo and the range upgrade is more expensive then a ghost academy, ghost cloak, ghost energy, stim pack, shields, concussive shells, factory, starport, 3/4 techlab. Why is that?

7th Argument, dude if you make all your starports produce medivacs and only a small handful of vikings, there wouldn't even be a need to stop colossi production. 3-4 Vikings won't do anything to a stalker/colossi army. Especially with blink.

Counter bullshit:
Hah! You know? Everything can be countered, even what i say can be countered. There's no such thing as an invincible build. Every build has a weakness that gets found out sooner or later. The unit composition you are talking about does work, but the amount of resources spent on all those upgrades and tech buildings as well as the timing just doesn't sound right. Honestly like:

Pylon ---> Gate --> Pylon ---> Cybernetics Core -----> Warp Gate -------> Robotics Facility -----> Pylon ----> Robotics Bay -----> Gate -------->Collosus Range

Takes the same time as

Supply -----> Barrack ----> Supply (Walling off of course) ------> Orbital Command ----> Ghost Academy -----> Tech Lab ------> Stim ----> Shield -----> Concussive Shells ------> Ghost's Cloak ------> Ghost's Energy -------> Barrack --------> Barrack -------> Factory -----> Starport
~ something like that except maybe somehow have minerals to expand too.

Does this really happen in game? I'm kinda curious how Terrans can do all this that fast. Someone just tell how this is even possible. Also note that the Terran army also outnumbers the toss army too.

I'm also in a bad mood today.