PvT way to deal with EMP - Page 17

On June 15 2010 06:55 link0 wrote:
I cannot understand your poor English

On June 15 2010 07:04 STS17 wrote:


I can't understand the premise behind his poor english either. It sounds like he is saying EMP is imbalanced and there is nothing we can do to prove otherwise despite 17 pages of people agreeing it is balanced and only a minor tweak needs to be made so it can be mitigated more easily to even the skill gap.

Which personally, I disagree with since it took far more skill to micro medic-marine around some lurkers then it did to burrow them but nobody really complained about that.

On June 15 2010 07:04 STS17 wrote:


I can't understand the premise behind his poor english either. It sounds like he is saying EMP is imbalanced and there is nothing we can do to prove otherwise despite 17 pages of people agreeing it is balanced and only a minor tweak needs to be made so it can be mitigated more easily to even the skill gap.

Which personally, I disagree with since it took far more skill to micro medic-marine around some lurkers then it did to burrow them but nobody really complained about that.

On June 15 2010 07:04 STS17 wrote:


I can't understand the premise behind his poor english either. It sounds like he is saying EMP is imbalanced and there is nothing we can do to prove otherwise despite 17 pages of people agreeing it is balanced and only a minor tweak needs to be made so it can be mitigated more easily to even the skill gap.

Which personally, I disagree with since it took far more skill to micro medic-marine around some lurkers then it did to burrow them but nobody really complained about that.

On June 15 2010 05:39 skipdog172 wrote:
Thanks Bibdy for finally bringing up the specific timing push that seems to really solidify your beliefs in EMP being too good. It must not be very common and I don't have much experience against it. Sounds to me like that exact timing push is what should be focused on instead of all of this arguing about outdated statistics. So much of this thread if screaming about EMP itself when it sounds like that timing push is what we should be analyzing. Is it really unbeatable by Protoss? You would think a timing push so simple, early and effective would see a lot more widespread use. Anybody have some replays??

On June 15 2010 05:51 Ghostcom wrote:
day[9] #135 is pretty filled with the replays.. My favorite part was Huk getting roflstomped even after having splitted his army up, doing a zeal flank and even manages to get a couple of FF off.

On June 15 2010 11:17 D3lta wrote:
Alright i admit information as outdated as I posted may be somewhat less than absolute prof. But level with me a second here. You really think the mu win ratios have changed radically in 1 1/2 months? I remember quite clearly several references to blizzard stating the PvT match had changed to like 52% P to 48% T, fairly recently, I simply having problems finding it (there's only so much effort im willing to put into this.) The point is the game appears to be extremely balanced PvT. its something like 70% win rate in ZvT on the asia realm alone that has been "bar far" the most radically stacked percentage that blizzard has seen.
And even then it is quite clear that it isn't because Z is too powerful vs T (many posts suggest the opposite), given the win ratio's were fairly average on all other gateways.
don't you think if there was some radical shift toward T dominating P, it would be fairly big news? The"mech crisis" that has taken place since the reported high discrepancies in Asia realm, has had little - if any- effect on the win ratios ZvT in asia. I would be willing to bet a quite a few Benjamin's that the win ratio's for PvT are within 5% of each other, and I doubt for all the cynicism displayed here, there would be anyone willing to take the bet.
If the mu is proven to be quite balanced. Than logically, IF EMP is overpowered, so is a non-emp'ed Protoss army. Otherwise how could Protoss possibly get close to a 50% win ratio vs Terran?

On June 13 2010 15:44 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Balancing for non-pro play (this goes for everyone in Diamond, which I was top 10 in before and after the reset) doesn't have to mean lowering the skill cap. In fact, it could increase the skill cap. It seems you're looking at this from a Terran POV (ie giving Toss a solution would mean it's easier for Toss). Dig deeper. Making EMP harder to use would obviously not reduce the skill cap for Terran; It would increase it. And if you give it more critical thought, giving Toss an EMP solution would require as much if not more skill from Toss too (just shifting skillset).

Right now, the Toss solution is to micro and macro much higher than Terran to work around EMP. That works fine on pro levels where these skills are very high and on relative par from player to player. In non-pro gameplay, it does not work whatsoever. This is another form of imbalance which must not be ignored IMO.

I'm still a fan of my GS idea (several pages back) because I think it would result in very competitive pro plays for both Toss and Terran.

On June 15 2010 13:37 trucejl wrote:


hence y things like stats n replays dont mean shit

there is simply too many other factors and/or bias involved

u should try not to contradict urself....going back n forth on whether stats is relevant is not too good for ur argument. double standards r nvr good

ps. if its so radical on korean server that would mean somewhere else terran is winning a lot more if its truely around 50-50. maybe koreans have some strat that isnt prevalent in other servers yet. maybe ppl just havent started to abuse it.

On June 15 2010 15:21 Easy772 wrote:


I like this idea a lot.. Make skills such as EMP harder to use so it's almost like trying to land an ability like Puck's 1st skill in DOTA or a special move like a shoryuken in SFIV etc. Adding this kind of attention to detail, that kind of critical thought as you said, would almost certainly make the game more enjoyable

On June 15 2010 15:32 space_yes wrote:



This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers keeping track of the terran army position. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).

On June 15 2010 15:32 space_yes wrote:


Clearly anything but your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion.



Then we're all too stupid to analyze the multiplicity of factors, available data (replays, high level player opinions, statistics) and to see through our own bias that there is no hope for anyone to rationally balance the game .



You should try to communicate in english that reflects higher standards than text messaging between teenagers. Posters on TL whose second or third language is english write better posts than you. It is actually kind of insulting to the people in this thread that have taken the time to write thoughtful posts.


I doubt there is some secret terran build that isn't being abused on other servers; if anything the general quality of player on the Asia server is much higher than on the U.S. or Euro servers. EMP exists to mitigate other factors previously mentioned in this thread. My advice is that if you're having trouble dealing with EMP go to sc2win, the replays thread, or gosugamers and download all the recent PvT you can find. Find out why other protoss players are winning in the MU and by extension why you are losing. I could list points previously brought up but I think watching a lot of replays will be more instructive for protoss players than reading my posts or recycling a debate amongst posters who have really dug their heels in over this.



This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers keeping track of the terran army position. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).

On June 15 2010 15:32 space_yes wrote:


Clearly anything but your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion.



Then we're all too stupid to analyze the multiplicity of factors, available data (replays, high level player opinions, statistics) and to see through our own bias that there is no hope for anyone to rationally balance the game .



You should try to communicate in english that reflects higher standards than text messaging between teenagers. Posters on TL whose second or third language is english write better posts than you. It is actually kind of insulting to the people in this thread that have taken the time to write thoughtful posts.


I doubt there is some secret terran build that isn't being abused on other servers; if anything the general quality of player on the Asia server is much higher than on the U.S. or Euro servers. EMP exists to mitigate other factors previously mentioned in this thread. My advice is that if you're having trouble dealing with EMP go to sc2win, the replays thread, or gosugamers and download all the recent PvT you can find. Find out why other protoss players are winning in the MU and by extension why you are losing. I could list points previously brought up but I think watching a lot of replays will be more instructive for protoss players than reading my posts or recycling a debate amongst posters who have really dug their heels in over this.



This was already answered in a subsequent posts. If EMP were dodgeable by casual players ghosts would disappear from high level play completely b/c any protoss with remotely decent apm would be able to consistently dodge it especially with observers. This might have potentially greater MU implications (especially for the viability of bio builds in TvP).

On June 15 2010 15:45 Ghostcom wrote:


1) just like dodging an EMP in sc:bw made SV totally redundant in high level TvP right? Making EMP a projectile would increase the skill cap on both sides if anything, not dumb it down and ghosts would still be very strong.
2)I think you are overestimating the attention observers get from the protoss player and how fast observers actually move.

On June 15 2010 15:47 trucejl wrote:


u must be so smart to say "lol noob go watch replays"

also ur psychic powers r failing u since my 1st language isnt english. nt though buddy

maybe u should read the conversation about stats/replay here bef u start spewing anymore shit

if u cant comprehend the fact that he is contradicting himself regarding the validity of stats then my "teenage texting" is even better than ur perfect english

once again another terran that just ignores the issue of emp n point to toss having "better scouting"