On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
Fungal Growth and Parasite both have shorter ranges than Ghosts' EMP OR snipe. One snipe = dead infestor. There are plenty of other T units that outrange infestors or can snipe them (e.g. two cloaked banshees make very quick work of them). Infestors are also T2.5 units. Are infestors effective and powerful against T? Sure. But at least T isn't resigned to always taking an infestor spell without a workable solution.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
LOL, i know,earlier i was talking to a zerg who said to get Hellion (T2) vs zergling (T1). HOW AM I SOPPOSE TO HAVE HELLIONS BY THEN? Brat_OK pushes out with stim/shielded marines, sevril medivacs and ghosts. Its at post 10:00 mark usually. This is plenty of time to get a colossi out. As soon as herd day9 was doing a daily on brat_ok's "cool tvp strategy" I knew this thread would be exploding with replay examples (something it severely lacked before). Obviously day[9] isn't going to go "hey check out brat_ok's build" and show 3 replays of him getting owned. The main reason Brat won the first game vs HuK so easily, was obviously due to a failed DT rush. Everything that could have went wrong for HuK did, the barely enough scan right into fortunate (or "good guess") raven production, the wall off ect. Brat_ok was able to push at his build's strongest point right after HuK poured resources into DTs. HuK did what he could, but he was just hard countered. The second game, people fail to mention the drop, which is really what won the game for Brat. It totally took by surprise and got him completely out of position. Remember how obvious it was that Brat couldn't leave his base with HuK sitting in position? What would happen if it weren't for a great timed drop? Well, probably something like this:
Toss is clearly imba i mean he landed every single emp and still lost Nerf since i seen it in a Video once!
I mean the 4 immortal where clearly USELESS after the emp and stim!
Huk must be some Toss GOD to survive the Stim + ghost push there is no way a mere MORTAL could do such a thing...RIGHT GUYS?!
Taking a Break or a few hours to cool off before i try to contribute more so people get a chance to see the build getting walked over and i have a chance to cool down a bit.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
LOL, i know,earlier i was talking to a zerg who said to get Hellion (T2) vs zergling (T1). HOW AM I SOPPOSE TO HAVE HELLIONS BY THEN? Brat_OK pushes out with stim/shielded marines, sevril medivacs and ghosts. Its at post 10:00 mark usually. This is plenty of time to get a colossi out. As soon as herd day9 was doing a daily on brat_ok's "cool tvp strategy" I knew this thread would be exploding with replay examples (something it severely lacked before). Obviously day[9] isn't going to go "hey check out brat_ok's build" and show 3 replays of him getting owned. The main reason Brat won the first game vs HuK so easily, was obviously due to a failed DT rush. Everything that could have went wrong for HuK did, the barely enough scan right into fortunate (or "good guess") raven production, the wall off ect. Brat_ok was able to push at his build's strongest point right after HuK poured resources into DTs. HuK did what he could, but he was just hard countered. The second game, people fail to mention the drop, which is really what won the game for Brat. It totally took by surprise and got him completely out of position. Remember how obvious it was that Brat couldn't leave his base with HuK sitting in position? What would happen if it weren't for a great timed drop? Well, probably something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUeqj-MtwV4
Toss is clearly imba i mean he landed every single emp and still lost Nerf since i seen it in a Video once!
I mean the 4 immortal where clearly USELESS after the emp and stim!
Huk must be some Toss GOD to survive the Stim + ghost push there is no way a mere MORTAL could do such a thing...RIGHT GUYS?!
Taking a Break or a few hours to cool off before i try to contribute more so people get a chance to see the build getting walked over and i have a chance to cool down a bit.
Hate to burst your bubble, but that was back in mid-May before the Immortal build-time nerf and various other changes, such as the cost reduction in Conc Shell, Shield and Stims. The Immortal build time was changed a week later.
On June 15 2010 02:51 metaldragon wrote: Toss is clearly imba i mean he landed every single emp and still lost Nerf since i seen it in a Video once!
I mean the 4 immortal where clearly USELESS after the emp and stim!
Huk must be some Toss GOD to survive the Stim + ghost push there is no way a mere MORTAL could do such a thing...RIGHT GUYS?!
Taking a Break or a few hours to cool off before i try to contribute more so people get a chance to see the build getting walked over and i have a chance to cool down a bit.
I was hoping you'd make good on your promise to stop posting (trolling) I'm not even going to entertain your post with a real response.
I don't quite understand why so many demand some sort of "direct" counter to EMP. It really doesn't make sense to me. So many unique race features/powers have no direct counters...it is just how they are. What is the "direct counter" to HT storm? EMP is just another damage spell.
What many people seem to forget over and over is that Toss has other things that it can do better than Terran to make up for the EMP damage. Toss can maintain map control and can get a big macro advantage in the mid-game w/ warpgates. They have observers to help them get the perfect army composition. I guess I have just won many battles where Terran used multiple EMPs...so I have a hard time accepting that we need some sort of "hard counter". Perfect compositions beat terran armies even with their EMPs and observers let us get that perfect composition...and warpgates let us get a unit advantage. We just need to abuse the strengths of the Protoss.
We aren't looking for a hard counter. We're looking for any solution at all. There are lots of solutions to psi storm, including EMP.
I am totally on board with TvP being a fairly balanced MU. No race is particularly OP vs the other. However, in order for P to win, P has to play at a level much higher than T. This gets annoying for anyone Diamond and below (and this is 99.999999% of all players). ZvT is the same way for Z from what I read (I have no direct experience since I'm only a P and T player).
On June 15 2010 02:49 whoopadeedoo wrote: Fungal Growth and Parasite both have shorter ranges than Ghosts' EMP OR snipe. One snipe = dead infestor. There are plenty of other T units that outrange infestors or can snipe them (e.g. two cloaked banshees make very quick work of them). Infestors are also T2.5 units. Are infestors effective and powerful against T? Sure. But at least T isn't resigned to always taking an infestor spell without a workable solution.
If you think getting ghosts TvZ is a workable solution, its quite obvious you havent played the match. Again with the age old assumption that I'm going get emp the energy on all his casters before they get spells off (you realise infestors move while burrowed right). Claiming ghosts will always hit SOME of the shielded units of the toss army is one thing (usally most the shield if multiple emps are dropped.), but assuming your going to get his casters - whether they are templars, infestors, or ravens- before he gets spells off on you, is to assume he is really bad. You would have to clump all your casters in a nice ball for him, or march them plan as day in front of your army (even then if 5 are spread out moving in, your not going to get them all.) Snipe has a shorter range than FG, and it would take at least (maybe 3...not sure) to take them out. In short, even if I do get a unit I - or most anyone else- absolutely wouldn't get, to counter infestors, he's still going to get parasites and FGs off on me. why? because he's suppose to. I'm not suppose to be able to get a few ghosts and counter all his spells indefinitely. EMP was always more of a spell for toss shields first, spells second. Which leads me to remind everyone that, just because feedback isn't a reliable way to counter EMP all the time, doesn't mean its not really good to hit ghost or medivac with whenever you get the chance (which will happen frequently in big long games.)
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
The solution is "everything protoss has going for them". The solution is warpgates, observers, superior army composition and map control. This isn't about "requiring more skill from Protoss". It is about not looking at EMP in a vacuum and realizing that it is JUST FINE. You can beat equally skilled Terran who use EMP.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Protoss has to "play at a much higher level than Terran" to win the game. It just isn't true. Keep money low, build warpgates, scout with an observer, make a perfect army composition and attack. I don't see what kind of ultra-impressive skills Protoss must possess to make this an even match. EMP is just a part of their army composition that they need to have a chance to compete. It isn't some magical spell that allows Terran with less skill to beat Protoss with more skill. It is needed because Protoss will be attacking with a bigger army with a superior composition.
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
So, let EMP hit me, then send in the HTs to Feedback.
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
So, let EMP hit me, then send in the HTs to Feedback.
Brilliant.
Storm dont feedback. And let me try to drill this in one last time: send in the army first send in your full energy templars spread out from the back i guarantee you, you will get storms off. Once he is stormed he has to move. Worse thing that could happen is you recharge all your shield. Best thing, and fails and dies.
On June 15 2010 02:49 whoopadeedoo wrote: Fungal Growth and Parasite both have shorter ranges than Ghosts' EMP OR snipe. One snipe = dead infestor. There are plenty of other T units that outrange infestors or can snipe them (e.g. two cloaked banshees make very quick work of them). Infestors are also T2.5 units. Are infestors effective and powerful against T? Sure. But at least T isn't resigned to always taking an infestor spell without a workable solution.
If you think getting ghosts TvZ is a workable solution, its quite obvious you havent played the match. Again with the age old assumption that I'm going get emp the energy on all his casters before they get spells off (you realise infestors move while burrowed right). Claiming ghosts will always hit SOME of the shielded units of the toss army is one thing (usally most the shield if multiple emps are dropped.), but assuming your going to get his casters - whether they are templars, infestors, or ravens- before he gets spells off on you, is to assume he is really bad. You would have to clump all your casters in a nice ball for him, or march them plan as day in front of your army (even then if 5 are spread out moving in, your not going to get them all.) Snipe has a shorter range than FG, and it would take at least (maybe 3...not sure) to take them out. In short, even if I do get a unit I - or most anyone else- absolutely wouldn't get, to counter infestors, he's still going to get parasites and FGs off on me. why? because he's suppose to. I'm not suppose to be able to get a few ghosts and counter all his spells indefinitely. EMP was always more of a spell for toss shields first, spells second. Which leads me to remind everyone that, just because feedback isn't a reliable way to counter EMP all the time, doesn't mean its not really good to hit ghost or medivac with whenever you get the chance (which will happen frequently in big long games.)
Sorry, I was thinking about seeker missle, not ghost snipe (which obviously is on my mind).
When I play TvZ, infestor spells do not always go off. I find infestors very powerful and difficult to deal with directly, but I do not have anywhere near the resigned attitude as my PvT MUs against EMP.
This whole rock-paper-scissor metagame annoys me, but that's for another discussion.
On June 15 2010 03:13 skipdog172 wrote: The solution is "everything protoss has going for them". The solution is warpgates, observers, superior army composition and map control. This isn't about "requiring more skill from Protoss". It is about not looking at EMP in a vacuum and realizing that it is JUST FINE. You can beat equally skilled Terran who use EMP.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Protoss has to "play at a much higher level than Terran" to win the game. It just isn't true. Keep money low, build warpgates, scout with an observer, make a perfect army composition and attack. I don't see what kind of ultra-impressive skills Protoss must possess to make this an even match. EMP is just a part of their army composition that they need to have a chance to compete. It isn't some magical spell that allows Terran with less skill to beat Protoss with more skill. It is needed because Protoss will be attacking with a bigger army with a superior composition.
Do you play random or play both sides? Terran (for me, at least) is much easier to play and win with than Protoss (in Diamond league). Other random players (from NA, Euro and Korea) have said the same thing, so I know it's not just me.
On June 15 2010 03:08 Bibdy wrote: In b4 the usual:
"Tech HTs using your micromanagement super-powers to expedite building creation and gas collection, then Feedback them with a range 9 spell before they get off an instant-cast range 10 spell. Then Psi Storm everything with all of that spare energy you're obviously going to have"
or
"Expand across the entire map and take full map control before he spots what you're doing, waltzes over and destroy you while you spend all of those precious minerals on Nexuseses instead of Zealot tanks or Cannons."
10 range, that means i automatically emp EVERY SINGLE templar you have. You don't have to be godlike with your micro to do something like 1) engage their army 2) send in templar from the back after they drop emps 3) make sure those same templar arent all stacked in one ball. Pretty basic.
So, let EMP hit me, then send in the HTs to Feedback.
Brilliant.
Storm dont feedback. And let me try to drill this in one last time: send in the army first send in your full energy templars spread out from the back i guarantee you, you will get storms off. Once he is stormed he has to move. Worse thing that could happen is you recharge all your shield. Best thing, and fails and dies.
You don't see anything wrong with having to get someone to blow their load from all of their support units first, before you can engage and have a POTENTIALLY even fight that now depends on the Protoss' placement of Psi Storm and the Terran's ability to micro out of it? Do you have to get a Zerg to blow all of his energy on Fungal Growths and Parasites before you engage? Do you wait for the Mothership to Vortex first, or do you just blow the fucker out of the sky?
And what stops the Terran just saving some EMP energy for the HTs? What can I do to guarantee he blows all of his energy on EMPing the rest of my blob? Do I just leave the HTs sitting at the back, engage his army with shield-less units, until I get my Collossi/Stalkers to snipe the Ghosts out, THEN send in the HTs? Talk about suicide.
On June 15 2010 02:59 skipdog172 wrote: I don't quite understand why so many demand some sort of "direct" counter to EMP. It really doesn't make sense to me. So many unique race features/powers have no direct counters...it is just how they are. What is the "direct counter" to HT storm? EMP is just another damage spell.
What many people seem to forget over and over is that Toss has other things that it can do better than Terran to make up for the EMP damage. Toss can maintain map control and can get a big macro advantage in the mid-game w/ warpgates. They have observers to help them get the perfect army composition. I guess I have just won many battles where Terran used multiple EMPs...so I have a hard time accepting that we need some sort of "hard counter". Perfect compositions beat terran armies even with their EMPs and observers let us get that perfect composition...and warpgates let us get a unit advantage. We just need to abuse the strengths of the Protoss.
Insightful first post
On June 15 2010 03:13 skipdog172 wrote: The solution is "everything protoss has going for them". The solution is warpgates, observers, superior army composition and map control. This isn't about "requiring more skill from Protoss". It is about not looking at EMP in a vacuum and realizing that it is JUST FINE. You can beat equally skilled Terran who use EMP.
I strongly disagree with this notion that Protoss has to "play at a much higher level than Terran" to win the game. It just isn't true. Keep money low, build warpgates, scout with an observer, make a perfect army composition and attack. I don't see what kind of ultra-impressive skills Protoss must possess to make this an even match. EMP is just a part of their army composition that they need to have a chance to compete. It isn't some magical spell that allows Terran with less skill to beat Protoss with more skill. It is needed because Protoss will be attacking with a bigger army with a superior composition.
These people have never played a game or MU where one side truly has to play at a higher level. I advise everyone in this thread who is new to Starcraft go buy a nice bottle of lubricant, log onto to iccup, race terran, and put "D/D+ protoss come." Play 20 games then come back to this thread. I promise you that you will find that your "emp means the protoss has to play at a much higher level" arguments are at the very least silly, at the very worst humiliating statements you hope get buried in the TL forum graveyard never again to see the light of day.
You guys may have missed the nerf emp someone started last night that got insta-closed saying we should nerf emp and one of his suggestions was to move it to a fusion core. Lol!! That is precisely the problem with threads like these. He probably spent all day reading this thread getting pumped about how OP and imba EMP is without knowing what he was talking about.
I'm going to end this post with some quality idra quotes:
On June 14 2010 14:26 SonKiE wrote: all these threads are made by protoss players who think they should win by pushing as soon as their first immortal is out, or by 3 gate rushing lol
they should. broken game if you don't win that way obviously.
obv itd be like if 6 goons and a shuttle of zealots didnt end the game immediately.
IdrA you know casual players can't balance the game or even test it correctly. I include myself in the casual group along with most diamond league players or anyone who doesn't play competitively in tournaments, leagues etc.
then casual players should recognize their shortcomings and shut up and listen to the people who know what theyre talking about instead of filling threads like this with bullshit.
Yeah, because BW's EMP on the equivalent of the Raven, to SC2's T1.5 Ghost is totally the same thing. Doesn't affect the time frame of EMP strength and allows it to be used in strong timing pushes, at all. Oh, and the instant-cast, non-projectile nature makes no difference to the ease of use compared to BWs sluggish version that requires the Science Vessel to decelerate before firing. No sir.
On June 15 2010 03:26 whoopadeedoo wrote:Do you play random or play both sides? Terran (for me, at least) is much easier to play and win with than Protoss (in Diamond league). Other random players (from NA, Euro and Korea) have said the same thing, so I know it's not just me.
Both sides.
So even though we know that Protoss actually beats Terran more, we are declaring that Terran is "easier to play and win with" than Protoss?
So basically you believe that overall, Protoss players are more skillful than Terran players, right?? That must be the case if Protoss actually wins more yet is somehow at a disadvantage...
But yeah, clearly because "other random players" agree with you, you can't be wrong!!!!
[QUOTE]On June 15 2010 03:46 skipdog172 wrote: [QUOTE]On June 15 2010 03:26 whoopadeedoo wrote: [QUOTE]Do you play random or play both sides? Terran (for me, at least) is much easier to play and win with than Protoss (in Diamond league). Other random players (from NA, Euro and Korea) have said the same thing, so I know it's not just me.[/QUOTE]
Both sides.
So even though we know that Protoss actually beats Terran more, we are declaring that Terran is "easier to play and win with" than Protoss?
So basically you believe that overall, Protoss players are more skillful than Terran players, right?? That must be the case if Protoss actually wins more yet is somehow at a disadvantage...
But yeah, clearly because "other random players" agree with you, you can't be wrong!!!! [/QUOTE]
where r u getting this stat saying toss beats terran more?
are we talking recent patch with 3102841 terran buff n 12213 toss nerf?
EPT
