On June 15 2010 00:42 Ghostcom wrote: Okay I think it is settled, metaldragon is trolling...
I'm Trolling because I'm suggesting way you can actually Beat the build instead of acting like the sky is falling?
You're trolling because you seriously think that you're smarter than others. In fact you act like other are mindless trash.
I'm mindless trash but you take 1-2 games of huk losing to a build and cry imbalance?
Which one of us do you honestly think is being mindless right here?
Is the build effective of course it is vs The Standard Toss BO right now
Is it imbalance?....Hardly
You have ways to deal with ghost early.
Feedback - Hard but doable! DT snipe - Scans are in short supply!
Phoenix snipe - 3x easier with move and shot.
You have solutions you can either
A. Try to use them B. Cry about EMP
What makes this even worst is that T is on the LOW end of the win rate for this match up and you want to make it even Harder.
Right, so you think Protoss needs to use T3 units in order to take out ghosts, which are tier 1.5 and EMP, which needs no researching?
It's already been reiterated by not just diamond league players, but more well known pros that Feedback is NOT a good counter for ghosts because EMP not only outranges it, but it's near impossible to be able to snipe a ghost in a bioball because it's extremely well hidden and camouflaged into the army. In addition, if the Terran cloaks his ghosts it's almost impossible to even notice that the ghosts are present until after the EMP hits.
Also, how do you "snipe" a ghost with DTs when ghosts have 100 hp and it takes 2-3 hits (depending on upgrades) for a DT to kill the ghost? Ghosts are no longer flimsy paperweights that die when you poke them. The have a good amount of hp and can survive several hits especially with medivacs healing them. A good Terran will scan (or even just panic-EMP) and destroy the DT extremely fast. Additionally, if they're on the defensive, well-placed Turrets, or even just a wall-in can easily stop DTs from ever even hitting your ghosts. Or they could just pick up the ghost asap with a medivac. -.-
Phoenix could snipe a DT but it's even worse than the other two alternatives you suggested. Clicking on a ghost in a bioball is ridiculously hard due to clumping and also to even spot teh ghost. Also, it takes even longer for a Phoenix to kill a ghost (5 shots total) and even if you had enough Phoenixes to one-shot a lifted ghost you'll likely be throwing away all those units because since ghosts are gas heavy, the Terran will likely have tons of marines which just rip through Phoenix in no time at all.
I'm not trying to say EMP is OP or needs to be changed. Rather, the solution is simply to get better at micro, imo. However, stupid Terrans need to stop giving bad advice and suggestions that don't work and have ALREADY been said to be ineffective by not just whiny diamond league players but TOP, KNOWN players as well. If you don't believe me, then just use the search function and look up any of the 10000000 EMP v. Feedback debate threads. I believe someone also quoted some noteworthy players earlier in this very thread, as well.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
On June 15 2010 00:42 Ghostcom wrote: Okay I think it is settled, metaldragon is trolling...
I'm Trolling because I'm suggesting way you can actually Beat the build instead of acting like the sky is falling?
You're trolling because you seriously think that you're smarter than others. In fact you act like other are mindless trash.
I'm mindless trash but you take 1-2 games of huk losing to a build and cry imbalance?
Which one of us do you honestly think is being mindless right here?
Is the build effective of course it is vs The Standard Toss BO right now
Is it imbalance?....Hardly
You have ways to deal with ghost early.
Feedback - Hard but doable! DT snipe - Scans are in short supply!
Phoenix snipe - 3x easier with move and shot.
You have solutions you can either
A. Try to use them B. Cry about EMP
What makes this even worst is that T is on the LOW end of the win rate for this match up and you want to make it even Harder.
Right, so you think Protoss needs to use T3 units in order to take out ghosts, which are tier 1.5 and EMP, which needs no researching?
It's already been reiterated by not just diamond league players, but more well known pros that Feedback is NOT a good counter for ghosts because EMP not only outranges it, but it's near impossible to be able to snipe a ghost in a bioball because it's extremely well hidden and camouflaged into the army. In addition, if the Terran cloaks his ghosts it's almost impossible to even notice that the ghosts are present until after the EMP hits.
Also, how do you "snipe" a ghost with DTs when ghosts have 100 hp and it takes 2-3 hits (depending on upgrades) for a DT to kill the ghost? Ghosts are no longer flimsy paperweights that die when you poke them. The have a good amount of hp and can survive several hits especially with medivacs healing them. A good Terran will scan (or even just panic-EMP) and destroy the DT extremely fast. Additionally, if they're on the defensive, well-placed Turrets, or even just a wall-in can easily stop DTs from ever even hitting your ghosts. Or they could just pick up the ghost asap with a medivac. -.-
Phoenix could snipe a DT but it's even worse than the other two alternatives you suggested. Clicking on a ghost in a bioball is ridiculously hard due to clumping and also to even spot teh ghost. Also, it takes even longer for a Phoenix to kill a ghost (5 shots total) and even if you had enough Phoenixes to one-shot a lifted ghost you'll likely be throwing away all those units because since ghosts are gas heavy, the Terran will likely have tons of marines which just rip through Phoenix in no time at all.
I'm not trying to say EMP is OP or needs to be changed. Rather, the solution is simply to get better at micro, imo. However, stupid Terrans need to stop giving bad advice and suggestions that don't work and have ALREADY been said to be ineffective by not just whiny diamond league players but TOP, KNOWN players as well. If you don't believe me, then just use the search function and look up any of the 10000000 EMP v. Feedback debate threads. I believe someone also quoted some noteworthy players earlier in this very thread, as well.
Where do i Start With this?
1. Phoenixes where suggested Vs ghost Mech which would be heavy on tanks and anti ground and not anti air.
2. They are still not a bad idea vs normal bio since taking out his ghost and emp hurts his army composition alot more then losing your phonixes.
3. phoenixes are the exact same tier as ghost (rax>tech lab>ghost academy - Gate > Core > Stargate)
4. DT Sniping has been done in high level games and has worked out just fine this is not theorycraft.
5. Feedback is not a direct counter or perfect solution but its effective even if he wastes his EMP on your templar instead of your army. templar can still morph into archons while ghost are practically useless with no energy.
At least we Agree on Toss players just needing to micro a bit better.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Sure. Expo and then have an even smaller army when he's pushing.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Rushing to ghosts, the first one pops at (60/40/40 - rax/acad/ghost) 140 seconds, EMP ready to go.
No, you don't have time to get Templar. Rushing directly to them is still 25/65/50/50/50 (pylon/gate/core/tc/ta) = 240s. This is not at all a viable or stable rush, as they still don't have storm, (another 110 seconds) and you don't have enough of an army to back them up. Rushing to a single collossi is 345 seconds (325 if you chrono the collossi itself) and we all know how fragile a single collossus is, especially when the opponent has EMP. Again because you're rushing, you won't have the meat shields to protect it, and you are GOING to lose this battle.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Thing is - your "proper responses" don't work. If you can come up with an ACTUALLY VIABLE response, and stop giving us crap that does nothing I'd be glad to listen to your posts. But as of now, you're not contributing to the discussion, you're trolling. Please stop.
Ohbtw, make emp projectile pls. Been my stance since.... basically forever.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
I'm not saying to rush BOTH either or is just fine or just turtling down at your expo with your normal army and a few cannons. If you get caught in the open with the wrong army composition of course your going to get hammered.
metaldragon, the more you respond, the more I agree with Ghostcom re: you trolling. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk up your posts to inexperience and arrogance, but some of the suggestions you mention are just downright silly, off-topic, pompous, rude, and provocative. This, my friend, is trolling.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Sure. Expo and then have an even smaller army when he's pushing.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Rushing to ghosts, the first one pops at (60/40/40 - rax/acad/ghost) 140 seconds, EMP ready to go.
No, you don't have time to get Templar. Rushing directly to them is still 25/65/50/50/50 (pylon/gate/core/tc/ta) = 240s. This is not at all a viable or stable rush, as they still don't have storm, (another 110 seconds) and you don't have enough of an army to back them up. Rushing to a single collossi is 345 seconds (325 if you chrono the collossi itself) and we all know how fragile a single collossus is, especially when the opponent has EMP. Again because you're rushing, you won't have the meat shields to protect it, and you are GOING to lose this battle.
On June 15 2010 01:53 metaldragon wrote: Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Thing is - your "proper responses" don't work. If you can come up with an ACTUALLY VIABLE response, and stop giving us crap that does nothing I'd be glad to listen to your posts. But as of now, you're not contributing to the discussion, you're trolling. Please stop.
Ohbtw, make emp projectile pls. Been my stance since.... basically forever.
Clearly its impossible to beat early ghost/rine there's nothing toss can possible do...nope.
Yeah I'm done.
You people clearly wont stop until you see some type of emp nerf in some way shape or form even with toss having a higher win % in the match up.
If Blizz has to patch every other week due to people whining about Nerf X it will be the death of E- Sports.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
LOL, i know,earlier i was talking to a zerg who said to get Hellion (T2) vs zergling (T1). HOW AM I SOPPOSE TO HAVE HELLIONS BY THEN? Brat_OK pushes out with stim/shielded marines, sevril medivacs and ghosts. Its at post 10:00 mark usually. This is plenty of time to get a colossi out. As soon as herd day9 was doing a daily on brat_ok's "cool tvp strategy" I knew this thread would be exploding with replay examples (something it severely lacked before). Obviously day[9] isn't going to go "hey check out brat_ok's build" and show 3 replays of him getting owned. The main reason Brat won the first game vs HuK so easily, was obviously due to a failed DT rush. Everything that could have went wrong for HuK did, the barely enough scan right into fortunate (or "good guess") raven production, the wall off ect. Brat_ok was able to push at his build's strongest point right after HuK poured resources into DTs. HuK did what he could, but he was just hard countered. The second game, people fail to mention the drop, which is really what won the game for Brat. It totally took by surprise and got him completely out of position. Remember how obvious it was that Brat couldn't leave his base with HuK sitting in position? What would happen if it weren't for a great timed drop? Well, probably something like this:
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
I'm not saying to rush BOTH either or is just fine or just turtling down at your expo with your normal army and a few cannons. If you get caught in the open with the wrong army composition of course your going to get hammered.
Rushing either is going to limit your "normal army", and doing so is still not going to get HT, DT (even if they were a good answer) or Collossi out in time.
Ghosts are an even tech level with sentry/stalker. If you're talking upgrades like cloak, stim + rine health, give the toss blink and charge (which takes the twilight council - longer build time than a tech lab and requires that core be built already) because those have equivalent research times. Except that you can only reasearch them one at a time. Lets ignore that.
Chargelots, sentries and blink stalkers still get eaten alive by mass rines and EMP.
On June 15 2010 00:35 Inori wrote: You should coach Huk and other pro/top tier gamers. You sound to be so much better than them at this game.
Especially you seem to be an expert on Protoss BOs and timings.
What Bratok Did was not Common at the time and was not common even near the end of the beta so of course its going to catch some top Toss players off guard.
When new strats come out it takes time for everyone to adjust and learn the proper responses.
There is plenty of time between stim,marine shield 2 ghost and 1-3 medivacs for toss to respond properly.
Could that be more vague? Care to elaborate on the 'proper response' you're talking about? You can't just bust into a Terran's base on a whim and start slaughtering Marines. With that build Brat_OK used, he has a buttload of ranged units, a full Bunker and an EMP-ready Ghost sitting at the top of a choke-point ready to utterly demolish any and all Protoss openings.
What's the response to that to avoid him charging forward the moment he gets stims? What's the response to stop the assault after he gets Stims?
I never suggested "busting in the front" Just because you cant bust in the front with a 7-9 minute push doesn't mean the build "counters" Everything it only means he SURVIVES past the 9 minute mark. Until he has Stim Toss has full map control and can Expo with ease!
Bratok Doesn't Rush Stim either He gets Marine health and then Researches Stim.
You have time to get templar, You have time to get collosi you have time to put up a few cannons at your expo (you did notice that toss had his expo up earlier in almost every game didn't you?).
Anything to either
1. Give you the economic lead 2. Give you the better army composition
Can be considered the proper response.
This has gone from "nerf EMP" into "his timing push beats my timing push What do i do?".
I dont know why i even still bother to reply at this point.
Lol...i just responded to your previous post but this one is so ridiculous I have to respond as well.
So apparently it's possible to get templar and research storm, which are both T3 on the Protoss tech tree (which, btw, has the longest research and build times in the game), and/or tech to colossi, build one (or two) colossi, research thermal lances (because w/out that they just fall too quickly), and build "a few cannons" BEFORE Terran gets ghosts (which are T1.5) and EMP (which is pre-researched) and can research Stim (which had just been buffed and is available almost immediately after barracks).
You serious?
EDIT: I re-read your post and you said Terran gets rine health before stim. But even then, marine health+stim is done well before templar/colossi tech is out. Both had recent buffs to make them even faster to get and they can be researched simultaneously. You seriously can't be suggesting that a rush to storm/colossi is faster than gettign stim and health can you?
I'm not saying to rush BOTH either or is just fine or just turtling down at your expo with your normal army and a few cannons. If you get caught in the open with the wrong army composition of course your going to get hammered.
Dude...even getting just ONE of the two takes much LONGER than getting stim and health.
Also, in your other response to my other post, you said Phoenix are same tier as Ghost. That is wrong. You cannot compare Gateway -> Core -> Stargate to Barracks -> Tech lab -> Academy. Core is almost 10 times more expensive than tech lab and it takes MUCH longer to build than a tech lab.
I agree that Phoenix could work if the Terran goes mech as Phoenix are a good unit to have against mech anyways. However, when you go Phoenix against bioball, your Phoenix are extremely precious and throwing them away to snipe your opponent's ghosts will put you at much more of a disadvantage than the Terran.
Just because something has happened, doesn't mean it works. Sure, maybe Pro A successfully used Feedback to kill ghosts against Pro B in Match C. That doesn't make it a good counter. I personally have used feedback against ghosts in a ladder match, but the problem is that in order to do so requires the Terran player to make a mistake; either in leaving their ghosts out in the open, or simply just looking the other way. Feedback v. ghost is simply just not a good idea due to the sheer difficulty in doing so.
Again, I have to stress that I personally do not believe EMP needs to be changed. However, certain ideas JUST DON'T WORK and people need to stop acting like they do.
The only thing those replays (including D3lta's) definitely prove is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't have to simply accept the eventuality of being EMPed without a damn thing he can do about it.
I think this thread needs to be taken down a few notches, it's getting rather heated and nobody is getting anywhere.
I think a few things need to be agreed upon and "defined" if you will in order for a reasonable (and hopefully productive, but hell this is the internet so let's not get too hopeful) discussion can occur.
I have read most of this thread and posted a couple times in the previous pages as well so I am fairly in the loop as far as the discussion goes. I would like to offer my perspective on what the Protoss players want and what the Terran players are saying.
Both sides have come to the general consensus that the spell is not overpowered but is very difficult to handle. What (some) Protoss players are looking for appears to be a way to "counter" EMP by giving Protoss a way to negate one or more EMPs in one way or another (GS "absorbing" an EMP and Shield Battery suggestions) while others are simply asking for a way to dodge the EMP or otherwise mitigate its effects (Making it a projectile or delayed blast similar to nuke calldown).
Terran players have responded by suggesting you spread out your units or keep them in warp prisims. There are other suggestions which have generally be refuted such as "just use feedback" or "Storm him" which are obnoxiously vague. What I believe these players are trying to suggest is that the protoss simply try to find an appropriate composition (note: appropriate and effective are two different things, appropriate means it looks good on paper while effective means looks good on paper and works well in game) and if no appropriate measure turns out to be feasable then a change can be made, but until then the Protoss player has to accept that PvT still results in more wins for P.
These appear to be the premise behind both sides arguments and neither is completely unfounded. As a terran player I would personally suggest getting an early TC for charge and get hallucination using Zealot Sentry -> Zealot Sentry Stalker HT. It would seem that with remotely decent positioning it could even deal with Brad_OK's push as charge should be finishing or finished around that time. Hallucination makes 2 Zealots per cast meaning you can make a lot of false tanks to confuse T into EMPing much less effectively. If you have the gas for a fastish +1 armor then that + GS means you take 2 damage per attack from the marines so even stimmed and with half your own health you will be quite strong against them. I don't play P so I don't know if the timings of this is even remotely possible but from watching my brother's play I would venture a guess that most of it can be up and ready when Brad_OK's push comes out.
Okay, so let's do a bit of analysis that compares both sides by relative gas income. I think its safe to assume that both sides will be getting 2 gas fairly early and that neither side is going to get a significantly larger income than the other before the first push comes.
Terran Units: 1 Reaper, 2 Ghosts, 2 Medivacs = 550 gas Tech: Stims, Shield = 300 gas Buildings: Tech Lab, Reactor, Factory, Starport, Ghost Academy = 325 gas
Protoss Buildings: Twilight Council, Templar Archives = 300 gas Tech: Warp Gate, Psi Storm = 250 gas Units: 2 HTs = 300 gas
So that's 325 gas you can spare on things like Stalkers and Sentries to keep the Marine ball at bay. That's just one Sentry and four Stalkers. That's a pitiful amount of gas spent to keep back the kind of Marine ball the Terran can build as time progresses. He'll just scout that, laugh and charge forward with the Marine ball while you're busy teching up to the HT 'counter' to the Ghost/Marine ball.
It basically means you have to spend a metric fuckton of minerals on Zealots as cannon-fodder. You can't afford Zealot speed, either, unless you pick it over Psi Storm. And Zealots just get ripped to shreds by an equal cost in Marines as the blobs get bigger. 1 Zealot beats 2 Marines, but 14 Marines (particularly with Stim and/or Shield, which you ARE getting) can rape 7 Zealots.
Can't get down to specifics, but that 'spare gas' differential leading up to the moment when the Terran feels comfortable moving out, doesn't feel comfortable from the Protoss perspective, at all.
On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
pretty sure only thing most logical toss wants is some way to not just eat an EMP w/e the terran feels like it. i mean if u look at the game as a whole right now, there is nothing else there that 1 race can do n nothing can be done about it.
metaldragon obv has not tried doing any of those things. honestly anyone who brings up feedback should automatically be discredited. dt was a smart thing to do a while ago. 99% of terran will build at least 1 raven as soon as they know dt tech is coming. sacing phoenix to try n take out ghost isnt the greatest idea. its not like they cost a cheap penny.
also some ppl needs to stop acting like ppl only go robo tech route. there r plenty of toss that go templar tech at least at the higher levels. bottomline templar tech is only slightly more effective than robo tech against ghost play
On June 15 2010 02:33 STS17 wrote: I think this thread needs to be taken down a few notches, it's getting rather heated and nobody is getting anywhere.
I think a few things need to be agreed upon and "defined" if you will in order for a reasonable (and hopefully productive, but hell this is the internet so let's not get too hopeful) discussion can occur.
I have read most of this thread and posted a couple times in the previous pages as well so I am fairly in the loop as far as the discussion goes. I would like to offer my perspective on what the Protoss players want and what the Terran players are saying.
Both sides have come to the general consensus that the spell is not overpowered but is very difficult to handle. What (some) Protoss players are looking for appears to be a way to "counter" EMP by giving Protoss a way to negate one or more EMPs in one way or another (GS "absorbing" an EMP and Shield Battery suggestions) while others are simply asking for a way to dodge the EMP or otherwise mitigate its effects (Making it a projectile or delayed blast similar to nuke calldown).
Terran players have responded by suggesting you spread out your units or keep them in warp prisims. There are other suggestions which have generally be refuted such as "just use feedback" or "Storm him" which are obnoxiously vague. What I believe these players are trying to suggest is that the protoss simply try to find an appropriate composition (note: appropriate and effective are two different things, appropriate means it looks good on paper while effective means looks good on paper and works well in game) and if no appropriate measure turns out to be feasable then a change can be made, but until then the Protoss player has to accept that PvT still results in more wins for P.
These appear to be the premise behind both sides arguments and neither is completely unfounded. As a terran player I would personally suggest getting an early TC for charge and get hallucination using Zealot Sentry -> Zealot Sentry Stalker HT. It would seem that with remotely decent positioning it could even deal with Brad_OK's push as charge should be finishing or finished around that time. Hallucination makes 2 Zealots per cast meaning you can make a lot of false tanks to confuse T into EMPing much less effectively. If you have the gas for a fastish +1 armor then that + GS means you take 2 damage per attack from the marines so even stimmed and with half your own health you will be quite strong against them. I don't play P so I don't know if the timings of this is even remotely possible but from watching my brother's play I would venture a guess that most of it can be up and ready when Brad_OK's push comes out.
To get hallucination on time a P is going to have to delay warp gates. if hallucination proves to be the right answer, then they may be able to survive the push. Question is, can a toss afford not to research warp gates for that long? I'd say probably - but you'll be fighting uphill for a while. Charge is pretty unlikely - Toss rushing for core gets it at an even time as T rushing to ghost academy, and then it's 50 seconds for the TC and 140 seconds for the research. I also find myself usually having to slow production in order to get charge right when it's available. That on top of getting hallu and I'm cutting a significant number of sentries.
Still, that could be a possible answer to Brat_ok's strat. Cool. How do we deal with EMP in a more general sense? Say mixed in with lategame bio armies, ghostmech, or worst of all rine/tank/ghost?
On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
wat is the range on infestors compared to ghost?
forcefield needs a natural choke to be completely effective. n u generally need 3-4 ff to cut a army in half at a choke point. if u avoid small chokes ff is not a problem. with emp even if u engage in the open ur still screwed. c the diff?
On June 15 2010 02:29 whoopadeedoo wrote: The only thing those replays (including your's) definitely proves is that Toss can't do anything about EMPs going off. They will go off 99 out of 100 times when Terran wants it to.
Buff Terran for all I care (but make Terran harder to execute); As a Terran player too, I would actually prefer this. Just give me a EMP solution for P so Toss doesn't just have to accept the eventuality of being EMPed.
So I shouldn't have to accept being fungal growthed when a Z goes infestors? Or my thors parasited? Or how about the completely impractical forcefield "walk over it with thors" concept? Again, this isn't a point in and of itself. It only holds weight if you claim EMP is too strong to not be easily avoidable. A argument that just doesn't have a lot supporting it.
Fungal Growth doesn't INSTANTLY wipe out half of your health AND drain all of your energy at an unreasonable range. You can stop FG by EMPing the Infestors. You can stop Parasite by just zapping the Infestor doing it. The impact is slight, manageable and its strength depends on how quickly YOU react to it. We don't 'react' to EMP. We just suffer it, fighting with a severe disadvantage, or running away to recharge. That's the difference. And what happens while we're away recharging? Your Ghosts are recharging their own energy and you're probably blowing up one of our expansions, so there comes a time when the Protoss just has to stand his ground, take it up the tailpipe and fight.
If we had Shield Batteries, EMP was a projectile, or it had a shorter range, we would stand a better chance of reacting to the sight of EMP, instead of just taking it in the face.
EPT
