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A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things:
1. late factory tech (no mech yet)
2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark
3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons:
1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran)
2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units)
3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
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On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote:
A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things:
1. late factory tech (no mech yet)
2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark
3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons:
1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran)
2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units)
3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
Well said. Sure there are tricks and so on, but overall, you have abuse what you can.
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On July 03 2010 06:48 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 06:45 whoopadeedoo wrote:
The only way to dodge an EMP is to mind-read. Well, yes, effectively. Or you can spread out your units, or use hallucinated units to soak up EMP. Or with your god hands, you can Feedback.
funny how u agree to ghost taking long to build n shit while u just say things like hallucinate. hallucinate is by no way a "natural progression"
feedback is not meant to be used on ghost bc it simply sucks against it. u can read y by going back in the thread
spreading out is ok but wat u need to understand is when u engage ur army will come into a smaller area eventually. no one says the terran has to emp as soon as he sees the toss army. depending on the map spreading out may or may not be effective. since emp has a ridicolous range, anything threatening that is far away can be ignored n as soon as they come close enough to do damage, boom emp(case against templar)
there is only 1 thing toss can do against emp, n that is take one w/e the terran feels like using it. the projectile that it fires is like a split second thing, there is no way to run away from it.
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On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote:
A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things:
1. late factory tech (no mech yet)
2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark
3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons:
1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran)
2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units)
3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech.
this shows how much u know about the matchup. a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against any reaper harass but a proxy reaper next to ur base
1. early game econ advantage? that goes away as soon as terran gets orbital n start muling.
2. how do u suggest toss go 4 gate aggression n not fight to get up the terran ramp? if u dont do damage as 4 gate ur gunna be behind. forming a superior concave is only possible if the terran army moves out n when they do itll be with 2+ghost(if they use ghost build)
3. this goes for the terran player too. its hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1 base and expand early on. later on the terran will break out of any contain ur have at their natural n expand when see fit
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On July 03 2010 07:24 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote:
A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things:
1. late factory tech (no mech yet)
2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark
3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons:
1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran)
2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units)
3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech. this shows how much u know about the matchup. a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against any reaper harass but a proxy reaper next to ur base 1. early game econ advantage? that goes away as soon as terran gets orbital n start muling. 2. how do u suggest toss go 4 gate aggression n not fight to get up the terran ramp? if u dont do damage as 4 gate ur gunna be behind. forming a superior concave is only possible if the terran army moves out n when they do itll be with 2+ghost(if they use ghost build) 3. this goes for the terran player too. its hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1 base and expand early on. later on the terran will break out of any contain ur have at their natural n expand when see fit
trucejl, do you even play protoss? while i agree a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against most reaper harass, how do you plan to account for anywhere from a 6~8 rax on maps like SoW or BS?
Again, do you even play protoss? toss reaches max saturation before terran does and sustains a slight but crucial mineral advantage early game. EVEN WITH the mule mining, the toss player still maintains a slight mineral advantage until terran reaches a certain number of workers.
Why do you assume that when the terran moves out it'll be GG for the toss just because they have 2+ ghost? lol? And also, it's not hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1base... IN FACT in my experience the game almost encourages aggressive 1-base play for protoss because of the chronoboosting mechanics. You would have a hard time constantly producing out of 6 gates, NOT 4.
peace and love
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On July 03 2010 07:17 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 06:48 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 06:45 whoopadeedoo wrote:
The only way to dodge an EMP is to mind-read. Well, yes, effectively. Or you can spread out your units, or use hallucinated units to soak up EMP. Or with your god hands, you can Feedback. funny how u agree to ghost taking long to build n shit while u just say things like hallucinate. hallucinate is by no way a "natural progression" feedback is not meant to be used on ghost bc it simply sucks against it. u can read y by going back in the thread spreading out is ok but wat u need to understand is when u engage ur army will come into a smaller area eventually. no one says the terran has to emp as soon as he sees the toss army. depending on the map spreading out may or may not be effective. since emp has a ridicolous range, anything threatening that is far away can be ignored n as soon as they come close enough to do damage, boom emp(case against templar) there is only 1 thing toss can do against emp, n that is take one w/e the terran feels like using it. the projectile that it fires is like a split second thing, there is no way to run away from it.
Hallucinate comes from a building you already have and is made by a unit you already have.
Or YOU could read what I've said on it. >>. If they're close enough to get a good EMP, often times, you're close enough to FB.
If you don't think you can survive the confrontation, then don't have it. Just control the middle of the map, and reinforce with a pylon.
I never said there was a way to dodge it. >>.
On July 03 2010 07:24 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 07:08 AncienTs wrote:
A fair number of these arguments have been deviating from the OP's original intent - which was to discuss a realistic and non-cheesy way to play early-mid game
vs a terran who has quickly invested gas into ghosts.
Stop posting balance suggestions. There is no imbalance =) The only imbalance is YOUR MICROMANAGEMENT.
Against early terran ghost, the protoss can be sure of three things:
1. late factory tech (no mech yet)
2. only one EMP before 6 minute mark
3. no early expansion -- very likely bioball aggression when ball reaches critical mass
Seeing that most protoss opt for 10 gate on most maps due to possibility of reaper, a brake on over-teching and going 4-gate aggression would be the most "standard" option because of 3 reasons:
1. Utilizing early-game econ advantage gain. (toss reaches max sat. before terran)
2. Forming a concave with superior numbers. Having a large ground army allows you to fight on open grounds instead having to utilize a ramp (fighting atop or below ramp clusters toss units)
3. Better judgment when it comes to expanding. Having map control allows for good recon, more mental fortitude, and ultimately better decision-making concerning WHEN to expand, get observer or even twilight council tech. this shows how much u know about the matchup. a gate at 12-13 is more than sufficient against any reaper harass but a proxy reaper next to ur base 1. early game econ advantage? that goes away as soon as terran gets orbital n start muling. 2. how do u suggest toss go 4 gate aggression n not fight to get up the terran ramp? if u dont do damage as 4 gate ur gunna be behind. forming a superior concave is only possible if the terran army moves out n when they do itll be with 2+ghost(if they use ghost build) 3. this goes for the terran player too. its hard to sustain constant 4 gate production on 1 base and expand early on. later on the terran will break out of any contain ur have at their natural n expand when see fit
1. Toss can make probes more quickly, thus the economy should be equal.
2./3. Covered above.
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@ancient: its call scouting n using probes. i hear thats wat everyone does against super early cheese. the mineral advantage ur talking about it barely noticeable. assuming toss using chrono boost 2-3 times for probes early on(most typical), it will only be a 2-4 worker lead. that isnt significant gap when mules enter the equation. i didnt say it was GG when terran pushes out with 2 ghost. u wanted to use 4 gates to control the map but as soon as the 2+ ghost push comes ull be the one inside ur base. 4 gate alone is sustainable on 1 base but its hard to keep CONSTANT production WHILE u expand(read better). also it depends on the army u r trying to sustain.
3 gates is the most effective number to use when u r planning an early expansion. after that u can add up till 8 gates. with 4 gates u have to stop production at some point to expand while 3 u dont.
@mythicalmage: sure hallucinate comes from a building u alrdy have but it should only be gotten after warp gate. im sure u know how frikin long warp gate takes. not to mention its another 100gas+110 time. FB = 9 range EMP = 10+2 range+AOE. so if ur close enough to get a good emp, ur templars wont have any energy to FB. like i said go back to read wat every sane person said about FB vs emp. so ur saying not to have confrontations n still maintain map control? which noob is gunna stay back n give u map control like that?
thanks for proving my point on terran not having any significant econ disadvantage early on. u might want to read wat ancient said.
edit: ancient if ur scared of super early cheese like 6-8 rack, its better to sent a early scout when u expect it n not just go 10 gate all the time. n dont contradict urself man, u said that most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper n right after u say 12-13 is sufficient against reaper. putting a extreme situation doesnt make it look any better. also im not saying 10 gate is bad, its just a build meant for early expand or aggression. its hardly most ppl to using on most maps
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I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
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On July 03 2010 09:44 trucejl wrote:
@ancient: its call scouting n using probes. i hear thats wat everyone does against super early cheese. the mineral advantage ur talking about it barely noticeable. assuming toss using chrono boost 2-3 times for probes early on(most typical), it will only be a 2-4 worker lead. that isnt significant gap when mules enter the equation. i didnt say it was GG when terran pushes out with 2 ghost. u wanted to use 4 gates to control the map but as soon as the 2+ ghost push comes ull be the one inside ur base. 4 gate alone is sustainable on 1 base but its hard to keep CONSTANT production WHILE u expand(read better). also it depends on the army u r trying to sustain.
3 gates is the most effective number to use when u r planning an early expansion. after that u can add up till 8 gates. with 4 gates u have to stop production at some point to expand while 3 u dont.
@mythicalmage: sure hallucinate comes from a building u alrdy have but it should only be gotten after warp gate. im sure u know how frikin long warp gate takes. not to mention its another 100gas+110 time. FB = 9 range EMP = 10+2 range+AOE. so if ur close enough to get a good emp, ur templars wont have any energy to FB. like i said go back to read wat every sane person said about FB vs emp. so ur saying not to have confrontations n still maintain map control? which noob is gunna stay back n give u map control like that?
thanks for proving my point on terran not having any significant econ disadvantage early on. u might want to read wat ancient said.
edit: ancient if ur scared of super early cheese like 6-8 rack, its better to sent a early scout when u expect it n not just go 10 gate all the time. n dont contradict urself man, u said that most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper n right after u say 12-13 is sufficient against reaper. putting a extreme situation doesnt make it look any better. also im not saying 10 gate is bad, its just a build meant for early expand or aggression. its hardly most ppl to using on most maps
>>. If you continue to chrono boost probes, instead of rushing for early tech or early pressure, which as has been said is dumb due to the terran wall, (Not sure if I agree with this), then you should be equal, income wise. Not only that, you can saturate your natural better and so on. The game, shockingly, is designed to be balanced.
As for expanding, you are correct, three is better. 4 is more for rushes/all ins and the like.
Well, you would obviously get it after Warp Gate. It's not like you're going to be getting air upgrades any time soon. As for the Feedback, as I've said what seems to be twenty times, EMP has a projectile. So, if they fire it directly on your templar, who is moving forward, you can Feedback before the EMP hits. And has already been said, if the EMP is premature, the protoss can just retreat. IF it's when in the choke, the ghost is in FB range. Of course, this is late game.
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On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote:
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off.
I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . .
(I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
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On July 03 2010 09:44 trucejl wrote:
@ancient: its call scouting n using probes. i hear thats wat everyone does against super early cheese. the mineral advantage ur talking about it barely noticeable. assuming toss using chrono boost 2-3 times for probes early on(most typical), it will only be a 2-4 worker lead. that isnt significant gap when mules enter the equation. i didnt say it was GG when terran pushes out with 2 ghost. u wanted to use 4 gates to control the map but as soon as the 2+ ghost push comes ull be the one inside ur base. 4 gate alone is sustainable on 1 base but its hard to keep CONSTANT production WHILE u expand(read better). also it depends on the army u r trying to sustain.
3 gates is the most effective number to use when u r planning an early expansion. after that u can add up till 8 gates. with 4 gates u have to stop production at some point to expand while 3 u dont.
edit: ancient if ur scared of super early cheese like 6-8 rack, its better to sent a early scout when u expect it n not just go 10 gate all the time. n dont contradict urself man, u said that most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper n right after u say 12-13 is sufficient against reaper. putting a extreme situation doesnt make it look any better. also im not saying 10 gate is bad, its just a build meant for early expand or aggression. its hardly most ppl to using on most maps
trucejl, 3gate is also viable i'm not trying to disprove that -- so don't get your panties in a bunch. i think we're all intelligent enough to assume peoples will scout using a worker, so try not to state the obvious.
the early mineral advantage of toss is a crucial part of the balance to PvT -- i believe it's one of the reasons why protoss players are able to 1base against terran until some mid-game (as opposed to brood war play).
i said most toss go 10 gate to combat reaper and i stand by it... you're saying that most toss go 12-13 -- there's no concrete proof of numbers what "most toss players do". There's nothing "game-breaking" with going 10 gate in anticipation of terran proxy / reaper bunker, which is fairly commonplace in plat/diamond.
I have to confess I go 10 gate pretty much all the time vs. terran, and what? Now I'm in a terrible econ situation just because i didn't 12 gate? I don't think it's an egregious build order error. I confess it could be better refined by going 12-13 gate but on certain maps without a certain degree of luck a 10 gate scenario is best when you are theory-crafting.
I'm sorry for generalizing by saying "most protoss players", but that's it.
Don't make a circular argument by saying early expansion discredits 4 gate. I never said 4 gate was to use in conjunction with early expansion. 4 gate can provide a good window of attack against the terran if the toss gets quick blink or chargelot or it can lead to good contain, thus PROVIDING a chance to expand (this does not mean you're shooting for that early expansion). Again, it's not a blueprint for 4gate + fast expand -- read better.
peace and love
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this is ridicolous.....
@mythicalmage: READ PLZ. im saying exactly wat ur saying about econ early on regarding chrono boost n mules. ancient is the one saying toss has a exploitable econ advantage over terran. i refuse to go on about FB vs EMP, u can read about it in the thread.
@ancient: until u can provide a graph that chrono boost enables a significant econ advantage over toss im going to stand by my statement that mules cancel out that 2-4 probe advantage early on. not to mention once full saturation is reached, 1 base terran out macros 1 base toss. so ur statement about 1 basing between terran n toss is incredibly wrong.
good job contradicting urself again about the 10 gate. first u say most n then u say u shouldnt. make up ur mind. also no where did i said most toss go 12-13 gate. i just said 12-13 is sufficient against reaper harass. i agree that there is nothing wrong with going 10 gate when u expect proxy reaper but how often do u c ppl going proxy reaper? 1 outta 10 games? if u sent out ur first pylon probe n catch the proxy rac, u can still drop down that 10 gate. u alrdy said ur wrong about most toss going 10 gate so there is no need to go on any further about it.
wat u say about 4 gate push is true for every single push in the game. y even bother mentioning expanding off that? once the terran pushes out when u expand(which means u stop gateway production momentarily), they can expand too. not to mention they can even build their CC bef they push n just float it. look im not saying 4 gate push is bad. i just dont c how its relevant to the conversion about EMP if ur not talking about FE with it which is wat i implied from ur post
there is a difference betw early scout aka bef u make a pylon in anticipation of proxy. thats wat im trying to say can be used in that situation. 10 gate does not have to be the standard bc ur afraid of proxy every game
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I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule.
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On July 03 2010 10:15 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote:
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off. I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . . (I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.)
Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
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On July 03 2010 10:53 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 10:15 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote:
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off. I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . . (I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.) Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold.
Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas.
EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason.
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On July 03 2010 10:57 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 10:53 Cloak wrote:On July 03 2010 10:15 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote:
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off. I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . . (I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.) Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold. Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas. EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason.
Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles.
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On July 03 2010 11:02 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 10:57 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:53 Cloak wrote:On July 03 2010 10:15 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote:
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off. I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . . (I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.) Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold. Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas. EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason. Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles.
But it's not pure marauder ghost. It's MMG. Which doesn't kite. >>.
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On July 03 2010 11:05 MythicalMage wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:02 Cloak wrote:On July 03 2010 10:57 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:53 Cloak wrote:On July 03 2010 10:15 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote:
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off. I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . . (I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.) Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold. Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas. EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason. Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles. But it's not pure marauder ghost. It's MMG. Which doesn't kite. >>.
I don't see how 3 types of ranged units with similar speed and range can't kite together. In fact, I see them do it all the time.
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On July 03 2010 11:08 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2010 11:05 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 11:02 Cloak wrote:On July 03 2010 10:57 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:53 Cloak wrote:On July 03 2010 10:15 MythicalMage wrote:On July 03 2010 10:08 Cloak wrote:
I can settle with the cost of Concussive Shell being a small drop in the bucket but whose amazing idea was it to make the research time 60s? That's one of the most powerful upgrades in the game and it takes less than half the time as any other legit upg. It turns Zealots into useless Rauder Chow and all Protoss has at that point is going to be countered by Ghost or Marauder. You have to really outplay your opponent to fend them off. I disagree entirely. If an upgrade makes your tier 1.5 units better than tier 1, who the hell cares? The leg upgrade negates that for the most part in attacking. The concussive shells always seemed to hurt the retreating army more, to me. According to Day9, who I'm only quoting to give my argument some not-me backing, zealots backed up by stalkers do pretty well against armored units like roaches and marauders. Of course, if you are going ghost marauder, you're gonna run out of gas really quick. . . (I love turning all this counter talk around people with the dumbest most nonsensical arguments.) Your argument is bad. Marauders (being supposedly anti-armor units) are already greater than Zealots if you, god forbid, micro a little bit. Poor anti-armor doesn't do so hot against light units, so instead of giving choice and consequence to Marauders, let's make sure we can shut down armor and light without thinking. Then, when a 1.5 unit comes to back up said Zealot, Terrans need an uber quick upgrade so they don't have to deal with being on equal level in the same tier. Funny you mention Zealot Charge, being the 200/200 140s upgrade that it is, since it doesn't do the kind of reversal of the matchup that Concussive does to Zealots. It merely lets them level the playing field in investment for an anti-armor unit. I'm still convinced that Protoss have to put a lot more effort into staving off Concussive Shell than Terrans have to just Right Click - Hold. Sure, Speed should be cheaper. But, without concussive shells, zealot stalker is pretty good. And even with them, I'm not convinced zealot stalker is a bad thing. If your opponent's microing, he's likely not macroing, and as Dustin Browder loved to point out before the beta, APM is a resource just like minerals and gas. EDIT: And the gas thing. You don't see Marauder ghost for a reason. Oh no, I love fighting against pure Marine and Ghost, because at least they're uber squishy when I'm squishy. It's the ones that wait like 30 more seconds to put 3-5 Marauders in there that give me troubles. But it's not pure marauder ghost. It's MMG. Which doesn't kite. >>. I don't see how 3 types of ranged units with similar speed and range can't kite together. In fact, I see them do it all the time.
Source? Because marines and ghost have a long firing animation, kiting with them is hard. And they each have a DIFFERENT firing animation. And only marauders slow, which complicates things.
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On July 03 2010 10:50 MythicalMage wrote:
I'm saying they're equal always if you keep chronoboosting probes. You're saying Terran get an advantage with MULEs.
And all these differences about gates is miniscule.
WTF do u understand english? ancient said toss gets econ advantage bc they saturate faster using chrono boost. i say mule practically evens that out.
terran gets an advantage with mules once full saturation has occur bc it can mine a patch while its being mined by a SCV. which means u basically have an extra worker at any given time mining. 50 probes in 1 base vs 30 SCV+ mules, terran wins so ur statement about them being equal is false
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EPT
