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On June 14 2010 03:52 Ghostcom wrote:
So the ability isn't overpowered because if the protoss player is mechanically much better than the terran it is fair? - riiiiight.
complaints in-game =/= complaints written on a forum.
The ability isn't overpowered because Toss has observers and phoenixes. Being able to monitor the terran army, tech, composition is just a HUGE advantage. You should always have plenty of time to set up your positioning before a battle starts, unless you are a complete and utter idiot.
Toss keeps complaining about EMP, yet they don't acknowledge the HUGE scouting advantage that they have that Terran can do nothing about. This game is 50% scouting, 20% micro, 30% macro. If EMP is raping you, you are just doing it wrong.
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On June 14 2010 04:52 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 03:52 Ghostcom wrote:
So the ability isn't overpowered because if the protoss player is mechanically much better than the terran it is fair? - riiiiight.
complaints in-game =/= complaints written on a forum. The ability isn't overpowered because Toss has observers and phoenixes. Being able to monitor the terran army, tech, composition is just a HUGE advantage. You should always have plenty of time to set up your positioning before a battle starts, unless you are a complete and utter idiot. Toss keeps complaining about EMP, yet they don't acknowledge the HUGE scouting advantage that they have that Terran can do nothing about. This game is 50% scouting, 20% micro, 30% macro. If EMP is raping you, you are just doing it wrong.
terran spot the observer around its army n scans using energy, toss build obs for 100g. how is that a huge scouting advantage? every race has its own advantages in scouting. terran can instantly find out wats happening in any part of the map anytime pass the early game. a good terran player that is active with his scans will rarely be surprised by anything. n terran can do nothing about toss scout? r u serious? 1 raven = no more obs n phoenix arent cheap to just have it fly over groups of marine n get shot at
something a lot of u r missing is that u make it sound like terran has ghost n thats all. u bring out all these toss units that can compliment to fight against ghost, dont u think terran can also compliment the ghost?
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Every scan to kill an obs will cost you 270mins (or 3 less minerals per second). Even if you kill his 50/100 unit, he's already seen your tech and your unit composition on top of the 270minerals you lose. Not to mention that most of the time, obs run completely undetected even at the highest levels. People don't have extremely sharp eyes that notice little translucent waves while they are macroing.
Obs >>>>>>>>>>>> Scans. Period. There is no contest. It's not even debatable.
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On June 14 2010 05:43 link0 wrote:
Every scan to kill an obs will cost you 270mins (or 3 less minerals per second). Even if you kill his 50/100 unit, he's already seen your tech and your unit composition on top of the 270minerals you lose. Not to mention that most of the time, obs run completely undetected even at the highest levels. People don't have extremely sharp eyes that notice little translucent waves while they are macroing.
Obs >>>>>>>>>>>> Scans. Period. There is no contest. It's not even debatable.
youre not losing any minerals holy shit, you dont mine as fast, chances are you are already ina huge mineral sink from 2 OC using mules anyway(hard to spend that much money just massing mules) and not scanning is stupid in general and you'll lose doing it.
And sure you can say with protoss' obs they can see the ghosts, but can you do a god damn thing about it? no. Ive had obs over the terran army and saw the ghosts and though "cool ill be able to win this with a good spread" only to get shit on by emp, did i mention its unavoidable? you cant FF half the time because your sentries run out of energy and even getting half of your army makes it pretty much useless.
The spell instant hits, drains all energy and mana, and is undodgable? This is balanced how?
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1. You ARE losing minerals. The lack of gain = lose. You lose 3minerals per second of income. Is that too complicated to understand?
2. Too much minerals? Mineral sink? LOL, just because you can't macro to spend all your minerals doesn't mean good terran players can't. Every scan to kill an obs costs me more than 5 marines and the obs already saw everything it needed to see and another one is on the way.
3. I never claimed that you shouldn't scan. Scanning is obviously useful at certain times.
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On June 14 2010 04:52 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 03:52 Ghostcom wrote:
So the ability isn't overpowered because if the protoss player is mechanically much better than the terran it is fair? - riiiiight.
complaints in-game =/= complaints written on a forum. The ability isn't overpowered because Toss has observers and phoenixes. Being able to monitor the terran army, tech, composition is just a HUGE advantage. You should always have plenty of time to set up your positioning before a battle starts, unless you are a complete and utter idiot. Toss keeps complaining about EMP, yet they don't acknowledge the HUGE scouting advantage that they have that Terran can do nothing about. This game is 50% scouting, 20% micro, 30% macro. If EMP is raping you, you are just doing it wrong.
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant.
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EMP goes to raven, 50e lockdown on ghosts as a researchable, 100/100 70s.
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On June 14 2010 05:54 link0 wrote:
1. You ARE losing minerals. The lack of gain = lose. You lose 3minerals per second of income. Is that too complicated to understand?
2. Too much minerals? Mineral sink? LOL, just because you can't macro to spend all your minerals doesn't mean good terran players can't.
3. I never claimed that you shouldn't scan. Scanning is obviously useful at certain times.
1. When you already have 2 OC sending mules im really not convinced you need that much extra income so im going to disagree, its not like youre pumping thors out of 10 factories and need a shitload of minerals for cheapass marines and marauders?
2.I was almost 2k plat so im doubting i had any problems spending money, getting C on SC1 with terran also probably could support this.(fixed for clarity)
3. you said in your post above that Mule > scan always, and theres no point in using it because you'll lose minerals, grats.
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On June 14 2010 05:54 link0 wrote:
1. You ARE losing minerals. The lack of gain = lose. You lose 3minerals per second of income. Is that too complicated to understand?
You are DELAYING the income - you don't lose it, the difference is pretty big, but that is another discussion.
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On June 14 2010 05:55 Ghostcom wrote:
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant.
Thank you for a proper reply. Well, here is my answer.
There is no perfect UNIT counter to ghost EMP. Just like there is no perfect UNIT counter high templar feedback and storm. Everything is based off of positioning and micro.
This is where the Toss scouting advantage equalizes the Terran EMP advantage. Toss's mobility advantage equalizes the Terran seige tank advantage. Usually, you can expect that a Toss player will be more ready and be in a better position than a Terran player and exploit the Terran's lack of scouting and lack of mobility.
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On June 14 2010 05:56 arb wrote:
3. you said in your post above that Mule > scan always, and theres no point in using it because you'll lose minerals, grats.
Huh? I said Obs >>>>> Scan. "Obs" is my abbreviation for observer, not Mule.
Ghostcom, 270 minerals less over the next 90 seconds (more or less) means I'll have 5 less marines in 90 seconds from now. The differences between "now" and 90 seconds from now isn't that significant.
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On June 14 2010 06:05 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 05:56 arb wrote:
3. you said in your post above that Mule > scan always, and theres no point in using it because you'll lose minerals, grats. Huh? I said Obs >>>>> Scan. "Obs" is my abbreviation for observer, not Mule.
Rofl i read that as OC so i assumed mule, sooooo fail
then yes i agree Obs > scan, misunderstanding
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On June 14 2010 06:03 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 05:55 Ghostcom wrote:
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant. Thank you for a proper reply. Well, here is my answer. There is no perfect UNIT counter to ghost EMP. Just like there is no perfect UNIT counter high templar feedback and storm. Everything is based off of positioning and micro. This is where the Toss scouting advantage equalizes the Terran EMP advantage. Toss's mobility advantage equalizes the Terran seige tank advantage. Usually, you can expect that a Toss player will be more ready and be in a better position than a Terran player and exploit the Terran's lack of scouting and lack of mobility.
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
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On June 14 2010 06:43 Ghostcom wrote:
I see your point, BUT you are mistaking mobility and scouting a bit. A protoss army isn't any more mobile than the terran bioball - especially not when stim enters as a factor, and it is here the problem arises. Due to the instant part - you can't micro so you won't get hit by EMP and due to equal mobility (actually the blob when stimmed is faster than the protoss army) means that you can't really micro to mitigate the effect afterwards. Sure if the protoss is the aggressor and he is encoutering ghostmech it isn't a problem due to the less mobility, but when the protoss is the defender the mobility will be either equal (ghostmech) or lesser (bio).
To sum up - the thing that makes it okay for the HT to only be soft countered (micro) isn't possible against ghosts (or the part possible doesn't really mitigate much damage and requires a lot more work then the usage of EMP does) and that is where my gripe with EMP lies. I'm not saying this is enough to make the MU broken or anything (because it isn't - the MU is pretty balanced) - just that I think it is one of the points where the effort to work around it far surpasses the effort it requires to use it. I still think that by making it a projectile (with everything else kept the same) would be a great way to even this out whilst introducing some plaguuuuuu moments.
Perfectly said.
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On June 14 2010 06:03 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2010 05:55 Ghostcom wrote:
While I agree the protoss have an easier time scouting, the problem is what to do with the information you get (and this is the point I and some others have been trying to make). If I scout a ghost academy - which unit would you recommend me building to counter? HTs for feedback? Feedback has less range than EMP not to mention how slow templars move and the ghost is hiding in the midst of the terran army since his range 10 emp won't be needed before the battle starts - this means that the templar really doesn't counter the ghost at all, but is in fact itself countered by the very unit it should counter (a tier 2 unit vs a tier 3 unit even). And when comparing the effort the use of EMP to it's optimum and the effort required to counter it one will notice there is a huge different because of the range, the AoE vs unit-targeting and because it is instant. Thank you for a proper reply. Well, here is my answer. There is no perfect UNIT counter to ghost EMP. Just like there is no perfect UNIT counter high templar feedback and storm. Everything is based off of positioning and micro. This is where the Toss scouting advantage equalizes the Terran EMP advantage. Toss's mobility advantage equalizes the Terran seige tank advantage. Usually, you can expect that a Toss player will be more ready and be in a better position than a Terran player and exploit the Terran's lack of scouting and lack of mobility.
You can't micro out of an EMP the same way you can micro out of a storm, and because EMP has a really long range, sniping ghosts with something like Blink Stalkers isn't a realistic option, since the ghosts will be behind the main Terran army, and as has already been mentioned, EMP outranges Feedback and is easier to cast effectively. Worse yet, EMP covers a really large area, and each Ghost in the Terran army can cast two EMP's without delay. That means that two Ghosts with enough energy could realistically hit a 200/200 Protoss army, even if that army is spread out (Think about any Protoss army you've faced: Can you think of any that couldn't be covered by four Command Centers?)
The question isn't whether Protoss has a counter to EMP. The answer is no. The question is whether, with sufficient scouting (Hallucinated Phoenixes, Obs, air unit fly-bys), a Protoss player can spot the Ghost Academy and build an army capable of withstanding the damage done by EMP, then winning. Without tons of replays or being able to play the game, I don't think anyone can answer that question: There are too many factors, like whether a Chargelot army can overcome a stimmed bioball with one third of their health missing and no caster support.
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On June 14 2010 07:56 Kratisto wrote:
That means that two Ghosts with enough energy could realistically hit a 200/200 Protoss army, even if that army is spread out (Think about any Protoss army you've faced: Can you think of any that couldn't be covered by four Command Centers?)
A big point as well is that they don't necessarily have to hit everything. If you can hit clumps of Sentries, Immortals, High Templar or Stalkers you get most of the benefit.
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linko there is a diff in scouting n monitoring. monitoring means u constantly know wat is happening n clearly 1 scan = teh end of that. with scouting, scan takes better game sense but can be just as effective. terran can scout tech/composition as well as toss depending on the game. not to mention 1 raven = no more "monitoring" of terran army
while most ppl cannot find every obs on the field, most players are able to c teh blur around their army which is wat ur monitoring is about
also 270min over time from mule n 50min+100gas+build time is not that far apart. i dont think anyone will disagree that gas is much more important than mineral as the game goes on
not to mention some toss builds dont even build robo fac till later into the game
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Please stop the scan discussion - it is an entirely different discussion.
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On June 14 2010 07:56 Kratisto wrote:
The question isn't whether Protoss has a counter to EMP. The answer is no. The question is whether, with sufficient scouting (Hallucinated Phoenixes, Obs, air unit fly-bys), a Protoss player can spot the Ghost Academy and build an army capable of withstanding the damage done by EMP, then winning. Without tons of replays or being able to play the game, I don't think anyone can answer that question: There are too many factors, like whether a Chargelot army can overcome a stimmed bioball with one third of their health missing and no caster support.
There's been substantial evidence that the question is answered: YES, toss player can EASILY win a ground a fight when EMPed. There has been no evidence provided that Terran players using ghosts have any kind of substantial edge over Protoss. Just a lot of complaining with no real basis provided. At least in the T mech vs Zerg arguments, you have top players of BOTH races attesting that it was imbalanced, with replays and stats provided. Even in this case, it turns out that time seems to providing zerg with other answers than "nerf mech."
There has been nothing like that provided here, and furthermore, there is no evidence that this opinion on OP ghosts is extremely wide spread. Marauders probably get way more complaints, which is a testament to the average level of play a complaining player is at. Even when you get the players on this thread to admit this, its only under the veil of "yea but the toss player has to play WAAY better." Again why has toss historically had the higher win % over Terran in all levels of platinum (later diamond) play? Not radically higher, but a good 54-52%. Sounds kind of balanced to me...
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i think the thing is, emp has no projectile?? the area is huge meaning even if u shoot the front of the army it will hit a huge area and that its so FUKN hard to see a ghost in a bioball..
seriosuly its crazy.. feedback is too ahrd to click on a single ghost
also ghost with emp withotu an upgrade is insane if any decent player has made 1-2 ghosts early game and going for a push it will destory any toss army.. there is no way for toss to deal with EMP which pretty much kills off 50% of the toss army hp..
the only reason ppl dont see ghosts as OP atm is becaues most players are too dumb to get ghosts and then complain that toss is imba.. seriously why would u not get 1 unit, the ghost, that coutners everything toss has - and call toss imba?
n to anyone who says to me that well why doesnt toss get ht and feedback ghosts,
ghosts are faster to get than HTs,
EMP is aoe, you dont even have to click righ tin the center of the army
ghosts are hard to feedback (single click a unit in a bioball) while ghosts can just emp the ground
seriously try playing P against decent terans and id liek to see them try and feedback the ghosts
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EPT
