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On June 11 2010 08:55 Batch wrote:
Finding out how effective extractor trick is could be done with some mathematics.
(T-E-2* D)*M-C = R
M = amonth of minerals a worker collects per second.
T = time it takes to build an overlord.
E = time it takes to build and cancel an extractor.
D = time it takes to move a drone between the mineral line and the gas geyser.
C = cost to build and cancel an extractor.
R = the result of using the extractor trick.
Some of this variables are known:
O = 25
M = 0.75 (according to above)
C = 25*0.25 = 6.25, rounded up to 7
(25-E-2* D)*0.75 - 7 = R
R is positive if:
(E+2* D) < 15.67
I don't have the timings but I guess D is around 3 and E can be as low as 2 which would result in the extractor trick giving about 5 minerals if done perfectly. The trick is probably not worth it unless someone is going for a pool before the first overlord.
(All seconds I have talked about is in game seconds.)
With the extractor trick (after overlord), you don't start your drone exactly when the overlord is started so you don't win exactly T*M
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As somebody already stated, ET is not about minerals but about larvae-management. Anytime you have 3 larvaes is a waste since no larvae is respawning, and its no good to have minerals if you cant spend them. 
That is why I do ET, + the benefit of getting that 11th drone early to scout. + I really dont loose much economically and I have nothing else to do with my time so..
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10lord ET uses up the larva so the hatch isn't maxed until the lord pops out and you build 2 more.
The testing honestly needs to be while using standard builds. The time isn't long enough.
14pool/15hatch, 15pool, 15 hatch, 13pool, 15pool/16hatch are the most common OL openings.
I don't think 9 lord is valid, I could be wrong but it just seems bad compared to 10lord. Not even talking about 10lord ET. So just compare the 10lord builds imho.
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On June 11 2010 19:02 choppa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 08:55 Batch wrote:
Finding out how effective extractor trick is could be done with some mathematics.
(T-E-2* D)*M-C = R
M = amonth of minerals a worker collects per second.
T = time it takes to build an overlord.
E = time it takes to build and cancel an extractor.
D = time it takes to move a drone between the mineral line and the gas geyser.
C = cost to build and cancel an extractor.
R = the result of using the extractor trick.
Some of this variables are known:
O = 25
M = 0.75 (according to above)
C = 25*0.25 = 6.25, rounded up to 7
(25-E-2* D)*0.75 - 7 = R
R is positive if:
(E+2* D) < 15.67
I don't have the timings but I guess D is around 3 and E can be as low as 2 which would result in the extractor trick giving about 5 minerals if done perfectly. The trick is probably not worth it unless someone is going for a pool before the first overlord.
(All seconds I have talked about is in game seconds.) With the extractor trick (after overlord), you don't start your drone exactly when the overlord is started so you don't win exactly T*M
In my calculations I did the extractor trick before building the overlord but you are right about more seconds worth of mining time being lost if the overlord is created before the mining trick. This only strengthens the point about extractor trick not being worth it unless going for an early pool before the overlord.
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i also did not belive that a 9 OV is the best econ options.
All my build orders where with 10 ET 11 OV.
After testing again 9 OV is far better if you do not plan to do a pool before OV.
9 OV 14 pool is by far the best econ opening in my tests.
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On June 11 2010 08:55 Batch wrote:
Finding out how effective extractor trick is could be done with some mathematics.
(T-E-2* D)*M-C = R
M = amonth of minerals a worker collects per second.
T = time it takes to build an overlord.
E = time it takes to build and cancel an extractor.
D = time it takes to move a drone between the mineral line and the gas geyser.
C = cost to build and cancel an extractor.
R = the result of using the extractor trick.
Some of this variables are known:
O = 25
M = 0.75 (according to above)
C = 25*0.25 = 6.25, rounded up to 7
(25-E-2* D)*0.75 - 7 = R
R is positive if:
(E+2* D) < 15.67
I don't have the timings but I guess D is around 3 and E can be as low as 2 which would result in the extractor trick giving about 5 minerals if done perfectly. The trick is probably not worth it unless someone is going for a pool before the first overlord.
(All seconds I have talked about is in game seconds.)
The thing is too, your going off perfection so if someones like one or two seconds off it wont work ? Because then if thats the case then the formula should be thrown out the window because perfect timing is most likely impossible, in my eyes.
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Wait, the first result you have here makes no sense to me.
In the test of moving workers to minerals or building new worker first.
Think about it this way, what is more important
1. getting one worker to minerals ~one second earlier (the new one you built)
2. getting 6 workers to minerals ~one second earlier (the 6 you start with)
I cannot figure out any reason why building the worker first would be better. Any explanations?
All of these tests are finding incredibly tiny margins, so if this one is off, it suggests that none of the results you achieved can accurately be measured by your tests.
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On June 11 2010 23:18 Pathetic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 08:55 Batch wrote:
Finding out how effective extractor trick is could be done with some mathematics.
(T-E-2* D)*M-C = R
M = amonth of minerals a worker collects per second.
T = time it takes to build an overlord.
E = time it takes to build and cancel an extractor.
D = time it takes to move a drone between the mineral line and the gas geyser.
C = cost to build and cancel an extractor.
R = the result of using the extractor trick.
Some of this variables are known:
O = 25
M = 0.75 (according to above)
C = 25*0.25 = 6.25, rounded up to 7
(25-E-2* D)*0.75 - 7 = R
R is positive if:
(E+2* D) < 15.67
I don't have the timings but I guess D is around 3 and E can be as low as 2 which would result in the extractor trick giving about 5 minerals if done perfectly. The trick is probably not worth it unless someone is going for a pool before the first overlord.
(All seconds I have talked about is in game seconds.) The thing is too, your going off perfection so if someones like one or two seconds off it wont work ? Because then if thats the case then the formula should be thrown out the window because perfect timing is most likely impossible, in my eyes.
The formula includes timings which makes it valid even in situations where timings are bad. The point I wanted to make with the formula was that unless the extractor trick is done with a close to perfect timing then it will result in a loss instead of a gain.
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On June 11 2010 20:24 CharlieMurphy wrote:I don't think 9 lord is valid, I could be wrong but it just seems bad compared to 10lord. Not even talking about 10lord ET. So just compare the 10lord builds imho.
Actually, from testing a while back, 9lord is superior to 10lord but inferior to 10lord ET. The reasons for being superior to 10lord is that with 9lord you don't waste larva spawn time, but with 10lord you do. 10lord with ET fixes the spawn problem however and you have an extra drone mining for longer than you need to recoup the 10 minerals you lose from the ET(since you can never spend those 4 minerals).
There are so many flaws in the OP however that I wouldn't put much weight behind it(larva capping for one, stopping the timer way early before any difference would show is another). It's a nice attempt, but I have to agree that more testing is needed.
Lost my notes on my own tests however so I don't really feel like doing them all over. As far as I remember though a 13-14 pool was usually better than hatch first builds(economically, queen is just way superior to hatch). An exception however is if you want fast spine crawlers at your expo but don't have to worry about any earlier rushes(useful if you know someone is getting a superfast hellion but not attacking with marines at all).
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I'm confused about your conclusion on test 4. You say it puts you 10 minerals behind, but your results show that the 10 overlord tests were mining for roughly 4 seconds longer and ended up with minerals that were only 10-15 ahead of 10 overlord extractor. That means that if you can mine more than 10-15 minerals in 4 seconds, you come out way ahead with the extractor trick.
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is it possible goin 13/10? i.e. constructing a pool/double extractor.. then back to mineral line?
how this may be helpful is going straight to hatchery as soon as 300 minerals is acquired (instead of using that 100 on an oL) Just a thought.. thx
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a extractor trick gets you your larva out faster i believe so i think its worth it
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On June 12 2010 00:17 sob3k wrote:
Wait, the first result you have here makes no sense to me.
In the test of moving workers to minerals or building new worker first.
Think about it this way, what is more important
1. getting one worker to minerals ~one second earlier (the new one you built)
2. getting 6 workers to minerals ~one second earlier (the 6 you start with)
I cannot figure out any reason why building the worker first would be better. Any explanations?
All of these tests are finding incredibly tiny margins, so if this one is off, it suggests that none of the results you achieved can accurately be measured by your tests.
I thought this too at first but then I thought about the cumlative effect. The first worker you build mines for an extra second but then so does the second worker as well. ByY 15 workers you have got nine extra seconds.
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What about the use of larva? Surely getting 2 drones out and delaying OL for a bit lets your larva be most efficient, aka always being under 3. I'm not sure on how the larva spawns but its 3 max with a larva every X seconds and if you get a queen 4 extra every 40sec ideally. I would also think about buildings as having 12 drones and going down to 11 is less significant then having 10 and going down to 9. I don't play zerg at all but when I rarely do I do double extractor trick from drones on their return trip, near the geyser, in about 3seconds each max.
Personally it makes me have higher APM so I am ready to play rather than SD spam.
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larvae pop up when u have 2 or less larvae and ur 3rd is morphing at i think 90-95% then it spawns. im not sure about the time interval inbetween if u have 0/1 larvae
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On June 12 2010 00:17 sob3k wrote:
1. getting one worker to minerals ~one second earlier (the new one you built)
2. getting 6 workers to minerals ~one second earlier (the 6 you start with)
I cannot figure out any reason why building the worker first would be better. Any explanations?
There was a post not to long ago that illustrated that it basically doesn't matter which order you do it in. Unless you're really slow to select the workers and move them after building one, then it's negligible.
I'm on a mac and can't get the sc2mapster program to run a map, can anyone do some more tests involving double extractor trick?
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i just tested extractor trick.
I went up to 13 drones and just built up minerals from there. Should make no difference with regards to this strat. Also made sure to restart until my splits were exactly the same. Minerals at 1:40 -
w/ extractor trick - 494
w/out extractor trick - 485
I don't know what you were doing to get such big differences, but if you actually know how to do it, the extractor trick does give you a couple extra minerals.
Also tested the 9 OL build. Got 480 minerals at the 1:40 mark. Seems like a matter of preference, as human error can easily account for those 5 minerals.
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I did some tests aswell in which I built 15 drones and checked the minerals at 2:30 (gametime).
The tests were done without any worker microing at all pointing all new drones to the same mineral patch. I ran about 10 tests counting only the runs which went flawless. In the extractor trick runs the extractor where built when I had 75 minerals so I immidiately could build a new drone.
ET: 504-524 minerals
No-ET: 505-535 minerals
As seen we probably need a lot of tests to actually find out the true outcome since the ranges are this wide.
I also glanced at the larvas and I would estimate the ET is worth about 5 (in game) seconds of larva spawn (1/3 larva).
With this result I get the conclusion that I probably will skip the ET since I don't think it's worth the trouble. I got pretty bad micro and while trying to do the trick I probably failed twice as often as I succeeded and lost valuable mining times with missclicks...
I would love seeing a video of somebody with great micro trying this out with gamespeed set on slowest and doing a perfect ET.
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On June 12 2010 03:32 sti wrote:
I thought this too at first but then I thought about the cumlative effect. The first worker you build mines for an extra second but then so does the second worker as well. ByY 15 workers you have got nine extra seconds.
This isn't true for zerg. You can build multiple drones at the same time. This is only true for protoss and terran.
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EPT
