On June 10 2010 16:10 pyr0ma5ta wrote:
Wait, so 9OL is better than 10OL for 14pool or 15hat openings, but not 12pool or overpool? Hm. Apparently I've been doing it wrong. Which doesn't surprise me because I'm awful at Zerg, but that's good to know.

Getting a 9OL but then doing a 12 pool would be counterproductive to the 9OL opening. The 9OL openeing is so you don't 3larva cap and get drones sooner too.

I don't 12pool much. But If I were, I would either 10OL ET 12pool or you could try 10 double ET, 12pool.

Slayer91

Ireland23335 Posts

June 10 2010 08:02 GMT

#23

On June 10 2010 16:18 darmousseh wrote:
another example of sc1 tricks not being useful in sc2.

Except its far far more useful in sc2 than it is in sc1, since its much cheaper and you have 2 available extractors. Don't post wrong things.

Demus

Netherlands305 Posts

June 10 2010 08:23 GMT

#24

On June 10 2010 16:34 P00RKID wrote:
or you could try 10 double ET, 12pool.

That what i was wondering. What are the effects of the ET on an early pool? So single / double ET to 11/12 pool or overpool. I would guess the earlier drones would be more beneficial here.

EddyBee

Netherlands46 Posts

June 10 2010 10:59 GMT

#25

On June 10 2010 17:23 Demus wrote:

Show nested quote +

That what i was wondering. What are the effects of the ET on an early pool? So single / double ET to 11/12 pool or overpool. I would guess the earlier drones would be more beneficial here.

Hmm,

Interesting idea... in general doing a double extractor trick is really not a good idea as you have to save up the minerals to do both at the same time (thus losing quite a bit of mining time).

Personally, I dont think that a DE trick is a good choice, but who knows...

Absurd

Sweden6 Posts

June 10 2010 11:18 GMT

#26

i use extractor trick when i´m rushing to get some extra zerglings out then i get ol when i got oversupply

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

June 10 2010 11:20 GMT

#27

9 OL is just best for everything, by the time the 12th drone pops it's already economically better then 10 OL. Single extractor trick or 10 OL are just inferior and double extractor trick is useless as you need 150 minerals saved up to execute it (2 extrs. + 2 drones cost) in which case you might as well make the OL earlier..

Only in some builds is 10 OL better then 9 OL like when doing a 10 pool build. But this speaks for itself basically.

Cheerio

Ukraine3178 Posts

June 10 2010 11:32 GMT

#28

1) I always felt like there is no need to micro the drones, AI is good enough. Now I know it, thanks.
2) The extractor trick results appear to be wrong.
3) I play a lot with 11ET>ov>pool and this way et is very much worth doing.
ET efficiency can be very easily calculated. All u need is timings of drones and the fact that drones mine at speed roughly 0,75minerals/second. The bad thing about 10 ov no ET is that it must delay the larva production which leads to all your future drones to spawn at later time which is economically inferior to any loss of minerals because of ET.

lim1017

Canada1278 Posts

June 10 2010 12:09 GMT

#29

i did a test for 2x double extractor trick

10 drones
Double extractor trick
12 hatch
11 pool
Double extractor trick AGAIN
overlord on 12

pool finishes @ ~2:20 (you have enough for a queen but i didnt build)
hatch finishes @ ~2:30 by then we have 14 drones and ~356 min

seems very interesting to me.. compared to

14 pool 15 hatch (standard???)
pool finishes a few seconds earlier
and at 2:30 i would have 17 drones & hatch 1/2 way complete
second overlord in production and ~250 min. 350 if no second Overlord

seems like doing 2x double extractor trick has its benefits... your 3 drones behind, BUT you have a hatchery 40-50 seconds earlier.

EDIT: did a bit more testing.. it feels like this 2x double extractor trick is really good though i haven't actually used it in a real game..

Fizbin

Canada202 Posts

June 10 2010 16:31 GMT

#30

a few things i would like to note. when doing extractor tricks make sure u have enough minerals to instantly make a drone so u can almost instantly cancel making it. the longer the extractor sits not mining the less accurate ur tests will be. another thing to note is drone count. i think 2 minutes isnt enough time to get an accurate graph. good work though. i was persaonly messing around with build tester lastnight and i found 9-10 OL to be the most economic. THE best reason for doing double extractor trick is to build a spawning pool before and OL. thats the only reason to use it imo.

Fizbin

Canada202 Posts

June 10 2010 16:38 GMT

#31

On June 10 2010 21:09 lim1017 wrote:

seems like doing 2x double extractor trick has its benefits... your 3 drones behind, BUT you have a hatchery 40-50 seconds earlier.

hey lim cool info. seems on small maps that might be viable, even behind on drones u could use that hatchery to make a faster 2nd queen and maybe put a cawler down as well, ur first queen u could polly use to creep tumor to join the 2 bases faster rather then inject do too hatchery popping more larva sooner.

Ecael

United States6703 Posts

June 10 2010 16:44 GMT

#32

I have also been wanting to try out double extractor into a faster pool and compare that against 12pool on single extractor trick, actually. After playing with the double ET 12 hatch build for a bit for ZvP, I was pretty skeptical of its uses in the matchup, but pushing for an earlier pool with double ET might be worth it yet.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

June 10 2010 16:44 GMT

#33

You've have 4 extra larva at that time, too. One on completion of the Hatchery, and an extra one every 15 seconds thereafter.

omninmo

2349 Posts

June 10 2010 16:57 GMT

#34

the extractor trick has more to do with larvae management than with the other resources.

i think we can make that the result of this discussion.

TSM

Great Britain584 Posts

June 10 2010 17:01 GMT

#35

i always do the extractor trick. with loads of practice you can get it really fast

ROOTslush

Canada170 Posts

June 10 2010 17:06 GMT

#36

On June 10 2010 01:56 Madkipz wrote:
extractor trick comes before overlord.

Competent

United States406 Posts

June 10 2010 19:38 GMT

#37

Commenting on OP's testing on the lack of extrator's effeciency. Now this is pure speculation as I do not play zerg but I do not believe the extractor trick is used to obtain more minerals but rather use the OL 100 min for a faster pool or hatch.

Having this said you should attempt 10 OL hatch and 12/10 ext trick hatch and test the mineral effeciency at 5 minutes.

sti

United Kingdom43 Posts

June 10 2010 20:17 GMT

#38

Seems like you need to do a lot of tests to account for human error. The differences are so tiny.

Pathetic

Canada63 Posts

June 10 2010 20:55 GMT

#39

Wow. Great job man, good to see you put so much effort into testing this. I saw a few people useing the EX trick and thought it was viable now, maybe not seeing as the only argument is maybe your not fast enough. Which I'll admit I'm not. But thanks for doing all the hard work. If you ever need help testing anything. PM me I'd be glad to help.

Batch

Sweden692 Posts

June 10 2010 23:55 GMT

#40

Finding out how effective extractor trick is could be done with some mathematics.

(T-E-2* D)*M-C = R

M = amonth of minerals a worker collects per second.
T = time it takes to build an overlord.
E = time it takes to build and cancel an extractor.
D = time it takes to move a drone between the mineral line and the gas geyser.
C = cost to build and cancel an extractor.
R = the result of using the extractor trick.

Some of this variables are known:
O = 25
M = 0.75 (according to above)
C = 25*0.25 = 6.25, rounded up to 7

(25-E-2* D)*0.75 - 7 = R

R is positive if:
(E+2* D) < 15.67

I don't have the timings but I guess D is around 3 and E can be as low as 2 which would result in the extractor trick giving about 5 minerals if done perfectly. The trick is probably not worth it unless someone is going for a pool before the first overlord.

(All seconds I have talked about is in game seconds.)

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