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I would say its pretty obvious to anyone that microing your workers, for example, DOES give a benefit.
No wasted mining time > wasted mining time, there is really no point in arguing against that.
The real question, however, is: Is it worth it?
I would say it isnt for me, based on my own observations, and these results.
The simple matter that it comes down to is this:
If you do it absolutely perfectly, you gain about 5 minerals. If you mess up, you can lose a lot more than that.
So it simply comes down to this in the end:
If you can do it absolutely perfectly, 100% of the time, and also have the APM to spare doing it, then do it.
If you cant do it perfectly 100% of the time, and/or you would rather focus your attention and apm somewhere else, then the possible 5 mineral gain simply isnt worth it, and you are better off not doing it.
More minerals is always good, but sometimes, 5 minerals simply isnt worth it.
And yes, thats all it is really. There is no "cumulative effect". That doesnt apply to zerg, unless your build wastes larva. (which neither 9OL or ET do).
Stopping the tests early "before the effects can be seen" is bullshit.
If you have 15 drones mining and 1 larva in all cases, letting it go on for longer is not going to show any "cumulative effect over time" or something random like that. No matter what build you used to get there, 15 drones mine at the same speed. If you are 5 minerals ahead, letting the 15 drones mine for 20 more mining cycles isnt going to put you more minerals ahead compared to another build with 15 drones also mining for 20 cycles.
Summing it up:
Splitting workers at the start: not worth it, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain.
Microing workers: not worth it, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time and have APM to spare. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain.
extractor trick: not worth it when going for a "normal" build, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain. Still delays overlord cost, so can still be useful for other reasons (faster scouting drone, faster pool, faster hatch)
If you are going for a scout, pool, and hatch at 12 food or later, dont bother with the ET. Its not worth the APM investment, for a gain of 5-15 minerals, and a potential loss of double to triple that amount, maybe more depending on how bad you screw it up.
Same thing for microing workers and splitting them.
If you actually are able to pull this all off 100% of the time, completely perfectly, and never screwing it up, ever, and have the APM to do it, and enjoy the pressure of putting yourself in a high-risk low-reward sittuation, where you cannot screw up, and also have a relevant build where 5 extra minerals actually makes a difference (lol), then sure, go ahead. If you are at that point, then you probably know what you are doing already better than anyone else, and dont need any advice.
All others: dont do it!
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On June 12 2010 23:55 Batch wrote:I did some tests aswell in which I built 15 drones and checked the minerals at 2:30 (gametime). The tests were done without any worker microing at all pointing all new drones to the same mineral patch. I ran about 10 tests counting only the runs which went flawless. In the extractor trick runs the extractor where built when I had 75 minerals so I immidiately could build a new drone. ET: 504-524 minerals No-ET: 505-535 minerals As seen we probably need a lot of tests to actually find out the true outcome since the ranges are this wide. I also glanced at the larvas and I would estimate the ET is worth about 5 (in game) seconds of larva spawn (1/3 larva). With this result I get the conclusion that I probably will skip the ET since I don't think it's worth the trouble. I got pretty bad micro and while trying to do the trick I probably failed twice as often as I succeeded and lost valuable mining times with missclicks... I would love seeing a video of somebody with great micro trying this out with gamespeed set on slowest and doing a perfect ET. 
if you are getting a 30 mineral discrepancy between "perfect" runs, you aren't doing it very well. When I ran the test I usually had 5 or 0 mineral differences at the 1:40 mark.
btw, what kind of numbers would those be realtime? Not really sure how to see gametime w/out playing an actual game.
On June 13 2010 08:13 morimacil wrote:
extractor trick: not worth it when going for a "normal" build, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain. Still delays overlord cost, so can still be useful for other reasons (faster scouting drone, faster pool, faster hatch)
extractor trick is done after the overlord
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On June 13 2010 08:13 morimacil wrote:
I would say its pretty obvious to anyone that microing your workers, for example, DOES give a benefit.
No wasted mining time > wasted mining time, there is really no point in arguing against that.
The real question, however, is: Is it worth it?
I would say it isnt for me, based on my own observations, and these results.
The simple matter that it comes down to is this:
If you do it absolutely perfectly, you gain about 5 minerals. If you mess up, you can lose a lot more than that.
So it simply comes down to this in the end:
If you can do it absolutely perfectly, 100% of the time, and also have the APM to spare doing it, then do it.
If you cant do it perfectly 100% of the time, and/or you would rather focus your attention and apm somewhere else, then the possible 5 mineral gain simply isnt worth it, and you are better off not doing it.
More minerals is always good, but sometimes, 5 minerals simply isnt worth it.
And yes, thats all it is really. There is no "cumulative effect". That doesnt apply to zerg, unless your build wastes larva. (which neither 9OL or ET do).
Stopping the tests early "before the effects can be seen" is bullshit.
If you have 15 drones mining and 1 larva in all cases, letting it go on for longer is not going to show any "cumulative effect over time" or something random like that. No matter what build you used to get there, 15 drones mine at the same speed. If you are 5 minerals ahead, letting the 15 drones mine for 20 more mining cycles isnt going to put you more minerals ahead compared to another build with 15 drones also mining for 20 cycles.
Summing it up:
Splitting workers at the start: not worth it, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain.
Microing workers: not worth it, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time and have APM to spare. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain.
extractor trick: not worth it when going for a "normal" build, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain. Still delays overlord cost, so can still be useful for other reasons (faster scouting drone, faster pool, faster hatch)
If you are going for a scout, pool, and hatch at 12 food or later, dont bother with the ET. Its not worth the APM investment, for a gain of 5-15 minerals, and a potential loss of double to triple that amount, maybe more depending on how bad you screw it up.
Same thing for microing workers and splitting them.
If you actually are able to pull this all off 100% of the time, completely perfectly, and never screwing it up, ever, and have the APM to do it, and enjoy the pressure of putting yourself in a high-risk low-reward sittuation, where you cannot screw up, and also have a relevant build where 5 extra minerals actually makes a difference (lol), then sure, go ahead. If you are at that point, then you probably know what you are doing already better than anyone else, and dont need any advice.
All others: dont do it!
Yes! You understood the essence of what I was trying to achieve with these experiments. The risk of not microing/doing ET perfectly is too big for the effort/APM put in to it and the rewards you're given.
As far as the other posts directed to me, I'll try to answer them tomorrow. I've been busy the last few days and didn't realize this post got such big attention
Cheers,
Tenn
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@morimacil
Thanks. I've never thought about the cumulative mining effect not existing with zerg!
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the extractor trick is super easy, and there's not much else to use your apm on at the time.
here is what you do:
-wait for drone mining minerals closest to geysers to return minerals
-start extractor with that drone
-make drone
-cancel extractor, send drone to the empty mineral patch right next to it
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The one thing I am not seeing mentioned here is using F1 to send idle workers directly to a mineral deposit instead of allowing the AI to spread them out for you.
I haven't seen any detailed write-ups concerning any benefits for doing that over simply sending them all to one deposit (or splitting them up into groups of 2 or 3). Does anyone have any links to an analysis like this? If not I'll have to see if I can create one and post it.
This is an interesting discussion BTW. Amazing how little benefit you derive from so much extra APM (aside from impressing your opponent with your high APM early in the game I guess).
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On June 13 2010 14:21 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 23:55 Batch wrote:I did some tests aswell in which I built 15 drones and checked the minerals at 2:30 (gametime). The tests were done without any worker microing at all pointing all new drones to the same mineral patch. I ran about 10 tests counting only the runs which went flawless. In the extractor trick runs the extractor where built when I had 75 minerals so I immidiately could build a new drone. ET: 504-524 minerals No-ET: 505-535 minerals As seen we probably need a lot of tests to actually find out the true outcome since the ranges are this wide. I also glanced at the larvas and I would estimate the ET is worth about 5 (in game) seconds of larva spawn (1/3 larva). With this result I get the conclusion that I probably will skip the ET since I don't think it's worth the trouble. I got pretty bad micro and while trying to do the trick I probably failed twice as often as I succeeded and lost valuable mining times with missclicks... I would love seeing a video of somebody with great micro trying this out with gamespeed set on slowest and doing a perfect ET. if you are getting a 30 mineral discrepancy between "perfect" runs, you aren't doing it very well. When I ran the test I usually had 5 or 0 mineral differences at the 1:40 mark. btw, what kind of numbers would those be realtime? Not really sure how to see gametime w/out playing an actual game. Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 08:13 morimacil wrote:
extractor trick: not worth it when going for a "normal" build, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain. Still delays overlord cost, so can still be useful for other reasons (faster scouting drone, faster pool, faster hatch)
extractor trick is done after the overlord
The extractor trick will always be more effective if being done before starting building the overlord.
I can't think of a single scenario when the extractor trick should be done after the start of the overlord, please enlighten me if there is such a case.
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Thanks for the contribution i like the tests and i usually just stick with the 9 ovie no extractor trick it seems to work out better in the long run
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United States643 Posts
On June 14 2010 08:21 infuzer wrote:
@morimacil
Thanks. I've never thought about the cumulative mining effect not existing with zerg!
It doesn't really exist with protoss or terran either, because the "standard" terran and protoss builds (pylon on 9, supply depot on 10) both have a slight delay in early worker production, waiting for the first supply structure to finish.
Since you run into a delay anyway (and since the delay is nowhere near a full second when getting workers to mine first as opposed to building your first worker), it really seems to me that getting 6 workers mining slightly faster is better than starting your first worker sooner, and I ran some tests that seemed to verify this, showing a very slight mineral advantage, and no global worker delay, when starting workers mining first.
Also, unless you have a perfect split, you don't have enough minerals to start building your second worker as soon as the first worker finishes, so you end up delaying worker production anyway.
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Ok some answers to questions directed at me. I'm curious if you want me to conduct more tests (if so, what tests?) or help me out to get more data to these tests.
On June 15 2010 04:12 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 14:21 Red Alert wrote:On June 12 2010 23:55 Batch wrote:I did some tests aswell in which I built 15 drones and checked the minerals at 2:30 (gametime). The tests were done without any worker microing at all pointing all new drones to the same mineral patch. I ran about 10 tests counting only the runs which went flawless. In the extractor trick runs the extractor where built when I had 75 minerals so I immidiately could build a new drone. ET: 504-524 minerals No-ET: 505-535 minerals As seen we probably need a lot of tests to actually find out the true outcome since the ranges are this wide. I also glanced at the larvas and I would estimate the ET is worth about 5 (in game) seconds of larva spawn (1/3 larva). With this result I get the conclusion that I probably will skip the ET since I don't think it's worth the trouble. I got pretty bad micro and while trying to do the trick I probably failed twice as often as I succeeded and lost valuable mining times with missclicks... I would love seeing a video of somebody with great micro trying this out with gamespeed set on slowest and doing a perfect ET. if you are getting a 30 mineral discrepancy between "perfect" runs, you aren't doing it very well. When I ran the test I usually had 5 or 0 mineral differences at the 1:40 mark. btw, what kind of numbers would those be realtime? Not really sure how to see gametime w/out playing an actual game. On June 13 2010 08:13 morimacil wrote:
extractor trick: not worth it when going for a "normal" build, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain. Still delays overlord cost, so can still be useful for other reasons (faster scouting drone, faster pool, faster hatch)
extractor trick is done after the overlord The extractor trick will always be more effective if being done before starting building the overlord. I can't think of a single scenario when the extractor trick should be done after the start of the overlord, please enlighten me if there is such a case.
Well I tried to come up with some different scenarios at the start to see what would happen if you did this or that. You're quite right in that the test is more or less useless (as the test's results also confirmed)..
Also, thumbs up for mathematics! It took me a while to follow u, but I think the calculations are somewhat right (although I reckon some tests should be done to see if it actually matches "reality").
Both your calculations and additional tests seems to support that ET can be more profitable, you just need to be very very good at it. I'm going to update the post to reflect this. Thanks!
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On June 10 2010 20:32 Cheerio wrote:
1) I always felt like there is no need to micro the drones, AI is good enough. Now I know it, thanks.
2) The extractor trick results appear to be wrong.
3) I play a lot with 11ET>ov>pool and this way et is very much worth doing.
ET efficiency can be very easily calculated. All u need is timings of drones and the fact that drones mine at speed roughly 0,75minerals/second. The bad thing about 10 ov no ET is that it must delay the larva production which leads to all your future drones to spawn at later time which is economically inferior to any loss of minerals because of ET.
1) You're welcome
2) Why? Please prove me wrong.
3) The time that the larvas are capped is like less than a few second isn't it? You're right that the larva production will be delayed for future production, it would be interesting to see with how much.
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On June 11 2010 01:31 Fizbin wrote:
a few things i would like to note. when doing extractor tricks make sure u have enough minerals to instantly make a drone so u can almost instantly cancel making it. the longer the extractor sits not mining the less accurate ur tests will be. another thing to note is drone count. i think 2 minutes isnt enough time to get an accurate graph. good work though. i was persaonly messing around with build tester lastnight and i found 9-10 OL to be the most economic. THE best reason for doing double extractor trick is to build a spawning pool before and OL. thats the only reason to use it imo.
I made sure to have enough minerals, only using drones close to the gas (without any minerals in their hands) and the extractor was only up for maybe 1 second for all tests where I used ET.
And why shouldn't 2 minutes be enough? All the variations are made before that, so if you just keep producing drones you will get a linear growth, the same no matter which build you start off with.
On June 11 2010 05:17 sti wrote:
Seems like you need to do a lot of tests to account for human error. The differences are so tiny.
Exactly! The differences are so tiny, and yet so much effort is put into doing ETs.
But you've got a point, more tests should be conducted (which I clearly stated) to draw definite conclusions on what type of starting build is actually "best".
On June 12 2010 00:44 onmach wrote:
I'm confused about your conclusion on test 4. You say it puts you 10 minerals behind, but your results show that the 10 overlord tests were mining for roughly 4 seconds longer and ended up with minerals that were only 10-15 ahead of 10 overlord extractor. That means that if you can mine more than 10-15 minerals in 4 seconds, you come out way ahead with the extractor trick.
Well it means that a single drone should mine those 10-15 minerals in 4 seconds doesn't it? And it doesn't. Thinking about it, I've made a weird comparison in test 4 since the 10 OL build is clearly worse than 9 OL build. If you compare the extractor trick in test 4 with 9 OL build you see that it is even more clear that it is not viable.
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On June 15 2010 04:12 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 14:21 Red Alert wrote:On June 12 2010 23:55 Batch wrote:I did some tests aswell in which I built 15 drones and checked the minerals at 2:30 (gametime). The tests were done without any worker microing at all pointing all new drones to the same mineral patch. I ran about 10 tests counting only the runs which went flawless. In the extractor trick runs the extractor where built when I had 75 minerals so I immidiately could build a new drone. ET: 504-524 minerals No-ET: 505-535 minerals As seen we probably need a lot of tests to actually find out the true outcome since the ranges are this wide. I also glanced at the larvas and I would estimate the ET is worth about 5 (in game) seconds of larva spawn (1/3 larva). With this result I get the conclusion that I probably will skip the ET since I don't think it's worth the trouble. I got pretty bad micro and while trying to do the trick I probably failed twice as often as I succeeded and lost valuable mining times with missclicks... I would love seeing a video of somebody with great micro trying this out with gamespeed set on slowest and doing a perfect ET. if you are getting a 30 mineral discrepancy between "perfect" runs, you aren't doing it very well. When I ran the test I usually had 5 or 0 mineral differences at the 1:40 mark. btw, what kind of numbers would those be realtime? Not really sure how to see gametime w/out playing an actual game. On June 13 2010 08:13 morimacil wrote:
extractor trick: not worth it when going for a "normal" build, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain. Still delays overlord cost, so can still be useful for other reasons (faster scouting drone, faster pool, faster hatch)
extractor trick is done after the overlord The extractor trick will always be more effective if being done before starting building the overlord. I can't think of a single scenario when the extractor trick should be done after the start of the overlord, please enlighten me if there is such a case.
Cool how you totally dodged my question and instead responded to a minor point. But it's better in every case to build the extractor after the overlord, if you actually know what you're doing.
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United States643 Posts
On June 15 2010 00:52 General-Gouda wrote:
The one thing I am not seeing mentioned here is using F1 to send idle workers directly to a mineral deposit instead of allowing the AI to spread them out for you.
I haven't seen any detailed write-ups concerning any benefits for doing that over simply sending them all to one deposit (or splitting them up into groups of 2 or 3). Does anyone have any links to an analysis like this? If not I'll have to see if I can create one and post it.
WhiteRa has a very unique method of splitting that I don't see anybody else do. He'll select 2 workers at a time and send them to separate patches. He does this *very* quickly, and has obviously practiced it a lot.
But if you watch a replay of him against somebody doing a more typical split, where they select all 6 workers, send them to a single patch, then peel off 3 and send them to a separate patch, WhiteRa's "perfect" 2/2/2 split is always 5-10 minerals behind the 3/3 split, simply because there's an ever-so-slight delay where he has 4 and then 2 workers not moving towards the mineral patches, where the 3/3 peel has all workers moving towards minerals from the very beginning.
Obviously WhiteRa believes he's found a method that works for him, but in the 3 or 4 replays I've paid attention to the split efficiency of his split against a 3/3 peel, he is slightly behind.
However, the specific patches that end up being worked makes a much larger difference than any splitting advantages. Making sure the closer mineral patches are being worked first is far more important than a "perfect split", because a worker on a close mineral patch mines about 10% faster than a worker on a far patch.
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I think blizzard made this intentional. Even the name is called the "Extractor trick". The extractor trick was used to make up for the deficiency in worker AI and same with splitting. Now that workers have excellent AI, there is no reason to micro manage them most of the time. Instead of spending time microing that, use it to micro your scout.
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just did some tests of 9 OL vs 10 OL ET, similar to post... although i think its a real bad idea to pause as your 15th drone comes out, instead we should probably drone up to 15 then check minerals at 3mins or something.
10 OL ET:
264 2:05
254 2:05
274 2:05
259 2:05
9 OL:
255 2:05
275 2:05
265 2:05
260 2:05
also whoever posted about the cumulative mining effect... there IS an effect, because you start with 3 larvae so until you build your first drone you are wasting larvae, which could make building the drone first better... dunno i always did ctrl-f1, click on minerals, build drone, then split off 3. which all happens within about a second anyways.
also previously i have tested the time it takes to get to 500 minerals with 9 ol, 10 ol et, 10 ol... and it seemed like they were all within a split second of eachother, so long-term, as long as you spam out your drones, i think your opening has almost no effect. however, i'm still working to split faster etc...
ah, one more thing, i think we should be looking for the single best result in the opening, rather then for the average result. seems like you want to find the perfect opening and then train yourself to do it everytime... even if its more prone to mouseslips etc. at least thats how i like to play.
mid-level diamond player if anybody cares btw.
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On TEST 1:
Im surprised that you would lose as much as 20 minerals(though it looks more like 10 minerals from the spread) just from sending your workers first instead of building one first. Isnt this mostly based on your how fast you can execute both events?
I would actually expect that sending your workers to mine first is more significant since there are 6 of them compared to the one that is building. I should do a test on this myself and see how it goes.
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that extractor trick always was confusing to me so i was theorycrafting about it, lets pretend we have a player with lightning reflexes or its just a computer which does everything w/o any delay
+ Show Spoiler +Game Drones/Cap Gas Order
Time (not food)
Minerals
0:00 6/10 50 0 +Drone
0:11 6/10 50 0 +Drone
0:17 7/10 26.5 0
0:22 7/10 53 0 +Drone
0:28 8/10 34.5 0
0:31 8/10 52.5 0 +Drone
0:39 9/10 50.5 0 +Drone
0:47 9/10 54.5 0 +Drone
0:48 10/10 11 0
_______________________________________ 9-overlord
0:54 9/10 102 0 +Overlord
1:02 9/10 56 0 +Drone
1:19 10/18 121 0 +2xDrone
1:23 10/18 51 0 +Drone
1:30 10/18 53.5 0 +Drone
1:36 12/18 48.5 0
1:37 12/18 57.5 0 +Drone
1:40 13/18 34.5 0 (2 Drones in queue)
1:47 14/18 103 0
1:54 15/18 176.5 0
_______________________________________ 10-overlord
1:00 10/10 101 0 +Overlord
1:25 10/18 188.5 0 +3 drone?
1:33 10/18 248.5 0
1:41 10/18 308.5 0 1:42 13/18 166 0
_______________________________________ extractor trick
0:57 10/10 78.5 0 +Extractor +Drone (you get 18/25 m refund)
1:08 10/10 104 0 +Overlord
1:14 11/10 49 0
1:33 11/18 206 0 +3 drone?
1:41 11/18 272 0
1:50 14/18 196 0
_______________________________________ double extractor trick
1:07 10/10 153.5 0 +2xExtractor +2xDrone (you get 36/50 m refund)
1:16 10/10 107 0 +Overlord
1:24 12/10 67 0
1:41 12/18 220 0 +3 drone?
1:58 15/18 223 0
lines highlighted with red show that even if you can squeeze some extra minerals using extractor trick (272 minerals 11 workers vs 144 minerals 13 workers in 9-OL, so you get 28 extra minerals) you are behind in drone count and this 28 minerals are mined in 3 seconds of game time at this point of the game
it can be viable in case you want to get some super-fast 11-expansion or 11-12 pool, but real players cant perform so well to have perfect timing so i dont think its worth it - its like you can morph some building 5 seconds earlier than you normally would, but your economy would be much worse
and it seems to me you are wasting larvae while pooling resources for ET and afterwards, delaying your overlord, because after it pops-up you shall have more than 150 minerals and use all your larvae for drones so you will be broke on larvae
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ok i just did a quickie 9 OL vs 10 OL ET
9 OL:
2:05
15 drones
270 mineral
10 OL ET:
2:05
15 drones
279 mineral
it doesn't make sense to me that 9 OL is better. other than the fact that i just discovered canceling a structure costs 6 minerals.
also its on another thread, but spawning with minerals underneath the hatch makes a nice difference. probably why there is variance of 30-40 minerals in some people's tests
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it doesn't make sense to me that 9 OL is better. other than the fact that i just discovered canceling a structure costs 6 minerals.
In fact, cancelling a structure costs you 25% of the building cost (which is 6 gold for an extractor).
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On June 15 2010 04:12 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 14:21 Red Alert wrote:On June 12 2010 23:55 Batch wrote:I did some tests aswell in which I built 15 drones and checked the minerals at 2:30 (gametime). The tests were done without any worker microing at all pointing all new drones to the same mineral patch. I ran about 10 tests counting only the runs which went flawless. In the extractor trick runs the extractor where built when I had 75 minerals so I immidiately could build a new drone. ET: 504-524 minerals No-ET: 505-535 minerals As seen we probably need a lot of tests to actually find out the true outcome since the ranges are this wide. I also glanced at the larvas and I would estimate the ET is worth about 5 (in game) seconds of larva spawn (1/3 larva). With this result I get the conclusion that I probably will skip the ET since I don't think it's worth the trouble. I got pretty bad micro and while trying to do the trick I probably failed twice as often as I succeeded and lost valuable mining times with missclicks... I would love seeing a video of somebody with great micro trying this out with gamespeed set on slowest and doing a perfect ET. if you are getting a 30 mineral discrepancy between "perfect" runs, you aren't doing it very well. When I ran the test I usually had 5 or 0 mineral differences at the 1:40 mark. btw, what kind of numbers would those be realtime? Not really sure how to see gametime w/out playing an actual game. On June 13 2010 08:13 morimacil wrote:
extractor trick: not worth it when going for a "normal" build, unless you can do it absolutely perfectly 100% of the time. If done absolutely perfectly 100% of the time, provides an incredibly minor gain. Still delays overlord cost, so can still be useful for other reasons (faster scouting drone, faster pool, faster hatch)
extractor trick is done after the overlord The extractor trick will always be more effective if being done before starting building the overlord. I can't think of a single scenario when the extractor trick should be done after the start of the overlord, please enlighten me if there is such a case.
The reason you build the overlord first is so you get your 12th and 13th drone out sooner. Sure, you get your 11th drone sooner with 10 ET 11 OL, but you delay the 12th and 13th, netting a loss. You also lose larva spawn time, so you also delay the 14th drone.
If your going to ET, do 10 OL then ET. As soon as OL pops you will have 2 larva (12th 13th) and a few seconds or so later pops a 14th larva.
Also, I chose 9 OL as the best opener. You get out your 10th drone a little later, but get your 11th 12th 13th drone out a lot sooner (maybe not a lot sooner for 11th) And you waste 0 larva spawn time. Since you don't waste any larva spawn time with this, you can get use of it by getting the 14th drone in the best time, thus the reason why 9OL is most economic when going 13 OR 14 pool.
With some openings, players will lose larva time as they save up 200 minerals for a pool, then another 50 for a drone. This is because they have between 1 and 2 larva and build up to 3 during the mineral saving time and the re-spawn timer stops on generating more larva. The sooner you get your pool, the more larva you waste, until your income is high enough, which is like 12 drones mining. Wasting larva means delaying future drones (or units) but drones are what you really want to be making in any macro oriented strategy with zerg.
The other advantage of 9 OL is a headstart in scouting with the second overlord, good for spotting cheese or whatever. Not a huge advantage, but when people compare it with 10ol ET they are nearly equal, so there is a slight edge in favor of 9 because you get slightly earlier OL positioning and scouting.
Is there anything I missed here? This is all from pure memory.
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EPT
