[H] How to block early photon canon

iShotyoMoM

United States43 Posts

May 25 2010 13:43 GMT

I got rushed by early photon cannon rush inside my base in desert oasis and i stopped the expansion of cannon with creep tumor and spine. But by that time, i was pulling lings out of my ass so desperately i panicked so hard. I made another Hatchery and started to pump lings to try to push cannons away which i should have pumped drones since i stopped cannons from approaching me.So i made blings and cleaned his pylons and when i did, void rays tada.
I saw probe coming into my base so i tried to kill it with a drone, but should i have used all of my drones?
At which point should i have stopped pumping zerglings and more drones?

P.S sorry for the nubness in this forum

http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6451

JonChamp

Denmark31 Posts

May 25 2010 13:45 GMT

Early scout is an easy answer...

I believe it takes 3 drones to take down a newly placed cannon - pull 4 out of the mineral line just to be safe.

iShotyoMoM

United States43 Posts

May 25 2010 13:48 GMT

i already saw the probe coming in with my ovie(overlord???)

so as soon as he put the pylon down, i started to attack with 1 drone.....

and he put down forge..... then cannon....

T.T

mav451

United States1596 Posts

May 25 2010 13:50 GMT

Wait he managed to put the forge in your base as well? Sounds all-in enough that I woulda pulled everything.

Sm0k3d

Denmark20 Posts

May 25 2010 14:10 GMT

From my experience as protoss, best move is to FE asap, cuz he will get near your base if u spot that build to late, but if u get the next base up and get to kill his drone eventually, then u have flipped the game for your advantage

AnodyneSea

Jamaica757 Posts

May 25 2010 14:19 GMT

i always 10 pool (Lalush build) against protoss so any proxy/cannon rush is shut down easy. If you saw his probe make a pylon... right away you should have pulled 4 drones to attack it, if you pooled early and saw he was trying to lay down a forge too, i would have just sent first lings to attack his mineral line while using those 4 drones to deny any cannons going up

Doc Daneeka

United States577 Posts

May 25 2010 14:29 GMT

lol, the one time this happened to me i just expanded to my third base, transferred all my drones and let him proceed to waste 1000+ mins before he realized i wasn't really operating at my main anymore. then when he abandoned the cannon push i expanded again to my nat, re-saturated my main (out of range of the cannons ofc), denied his expos and proceeded to outmacro.

this is probably not a good solution at high level play but i just thought i'd throw that out there. it's an option.

T0fuuu

Australia2275 Posts

May 25 2010 14:38 GMT

if he did not wall you off properly you can just do a ling runby and trash his base. no probes means no more cannons

barraf

Denmark17 Posts

May 25 2010 14:52 GMT

Attacking first pylon with 4 workers is bad in economic terms. Man can always put another pylon, which is only 100 gold and builds fast. Cannons are 150 and build slower. Better to leave the pylon as it is and attack newly building cannons (3-4 workers), while you wait for your lings.

shawabawa

United Kingdom417 Posts

May 25 2010 15:20 GMT

#10

On May 25 2010 23:52 barraf wrote:
Attacking first pylon with 4 workers is bad in economic terms. Man can always put another pylon, which is only 100 gold and builds fast. Cannons are 150 and build slower. Better to leave the pylon as it is and attack newly building cannons (3-4 workers), while you wait for your lings.

by sending one of his 6 starting probes and building his first pylon in your base he is pretty all in, if you can keep the pylon down he'll get a really late gateway/forge and you can just own him with zerglings.

If he doesn't send a starting probe it should be too late to do any real damage before you get zerglings.

If you take the pylon out you basically win, just keep a drone chasing the probe and get 3/4 on the pylon. If you ever get the opportunity kill the probe and it's gg.

EvilNuff

United States26 Posts

May 25 2010 15:38 GMT

#11

I actually think the most important thing is killing the probe. If you scout early and sweep around your base you will find any probe or pylon activity there. If you do not kill that probe then the protoss can start building a pylon, you take 4 workers off mining to attack and he can just cancel it before it dies or finishes and start another. All this time he is mining at his main and building more probes.

Ksyper

Bulgaria665 Posts

May 25 2010 15:40 GMT

#12

scout early and don't be afraid to pull of 3 4 drones to stop it.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

May 25 2010 15:43 GMT

#13

If you get 4 workers hammering on a Photon Cannon shortly after it starts building, you'll kill it before it gets a shot off. I just send 4 Workers per Cannon and 1 or 2 chasing around his Probe while I Chrono Zealots. For Zerg you can probably get away with the same thing.

f0rgiv3n

United States112 Posts

May 25 2010 15:51 GMT

#14

Scouting early isn't really a huge necessity because by the time he's in your base you already know what he's going to do. So it's kind of silly to sacrifice a drone earlier than normal when you'll find out he's cannon rushing at the same time as if you just sat there and saw him build the pylon/forge.

I had someone do that to me. and they even used the pylon/forge to block the bottom of my ramp. Then the cannons were behind the forge/pylon wall. I ended up pulling 4 drones and tried attacking but didn't have enough room to surround it before it spawned. You just have to make sure you don't over react. Keep your cool and know that you have an advantage... know that if you can somehow get out of ur base with some lings, you win. I ended up building a few spine crawlers and tumors to expand my creep and i used the uphill advantage to kill his stuff.

in your situation, after you contained him, i would have teched to muta or something to get out of your base. You DO NOT have to kill all of the buildings to continue on. Sometimes it's beneficial to make your opponent think they have the advantage by still having those cannons there

SuperDoremon

United States20 Posts

May 25 2010 16:19 GMT

#15

cannon rush is so popular nowaday with these stupid protoss. What I would do is pulling out 4 of my workers, surround the probe that is building even if he built a cannon it wont do a thing to ur building since he wanted to build it at a corner somewhere. After I killed that probe, I just put 4 of my worker at the ramp to prevent the second one and then just play as normal. One of the protoss did that to me on blistering sand during my rank game and to follow up he went 10 warpgate in 1 base <.<

BigDatez

Canada434 Posts

May 25 2010 16:38 GMT

#16

Earlier pool, get a spine, OR take off 4-5 drones (make 6 lings ASAP to NOT KILL THE CANNONS, but to RAID his BASE!

roemy

Germany432 Posts

May 25 2010 16:44 GMT

#17

just don't panic...! ^^
i know i know, easier said than done, but once you get used to it, you'll basically be able to ignore it. let him spend all those mins

provided he's starting a bit off and you don't see it right away:

- protoss "just" need to get the counter-cannon down before any of his are in range of your buildings.
once it is "blocked" that way, a robo can get you a warp prism. after that, warp gates can get you anywhere and/or the prism can shuttle your probe(s) around.

- terrans can relatively quickly switch to marauders, unless they were teching straight to tanks anyways. there's also a funky build that involves tanks and a "fast" PDD-raven...

- and, as you said, zerg have creep and spines. just get 2-4 spines, stay where you are - leave him be - maybe get a second queen for transfusion just in case. then tech up to nydus. not the the fastest way but "map control" switches right then and there, while he's still busy with his fast expansion.
some say banelings but i refuse to run that much gas into a bunch of hobo-cannons... :p

iShotyoMoM

United States43 Posts

May 25 2010 17:49 GMT

#18

everyone is saying go fast lings, but i was going 12 pool
is that not fast enough?
and i find scouting useless at this point because i saw him come into my base and my first reaction was photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon photon
and did anyone try to kill a scout with a worker?
it's impossible even with 4 workers
anyone care to post a replay of killing it with just worker?
and it's probe too
he just spits his energy shit and run

Duende

Venezuela13 Posts

May 25 2010 18:02 GMT

#19

As a rule of thumb vs P I pull one worker out of minerals to attack the probe, that way you don't lose focus and you know if he's putting down a hidden pylon. If he does put down a pylon, pull 1 more worker to kill that probe. He'll have to micro the probe to keep it alive. Works against the "probe vs building scv" too.

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

May 25 2010 18:03 GMT

#20

You need 4 workers PER CANNON. If he makes 1 Cannon, send 4 workers at it. If he makes a second one before you kill the first, put 4 more workers on that. He's not likely to have enough mineral income to put down more than that, but if he makes a third...put 4 more workers on that one. All you need to do is stall until you get some offensive units out. You should have already spent the minerals on the Gateway/Spawning Pool/whatever by the time the cannons start getting built (I hope you at least spotted the obvious pylon and/or forge).

Doesn't really matter how many minerals you lose by pulling workers off. The moment you have offensive units out and he doesn't, you're golden. Its not like he's going to follow up a Cannon rush with a horde of Zealots or anything.

T0fuuu

Australia2275 Posts

May 25 2010 18:07 GMT

#21

i saw the replay and you did have enough lings but you just wasted them. most ppl are telling you how to prevent him from setting up cannons but you didnt do that. at that stage when he has that many cannons up it was too late to try kill them with lings. you should have gotten ling speed with ur extractor and ran by and destroyed his base.

SuperDoremon

United States20 Posts

May 25 2010 18:23 GMT

#22

Here you go. This is in one of my placement game. I play protoss but ur drones should be able to do the same thing

Replay: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6472

ChickenLips

2912 Posts

May 25 2010 18:40 GMT

#23

On May 26 2010 03:23 SuperDoremon wrote:
Here you go. This is in one of my placement game. I play protoss but ur drones should be able to do the same thing

Replay: http://www.sc2rc.com/index.php/replay/show/6472

that was just the worst cannon rush ever

im not even gonna go into that replay...
you played decently ... but your opponent >_<

SuperDoremon

United States20 Posts

May 25 2010 18:43 GMT

#24

well it's just an example of some cannon rush. Based on his opponent having like 300 mineral at home, I would say those 2 guys are the same level. And plus, good players dont use these cheap tricks!

nihlon

Sweden5581 Posts

May 25 2010 19:05 GMT

#25

On May 26 2010 03:43 SuperDoremon wrote:
well it's just an example of some cannon rush. Based on his opponent having like 300 mineral at home, I would say those 2 guys are the same level. And plus, good players dont use these cheap tricks!

That's not entirely true.

shinigami

Canada423 Posts

May 25 2010 19:38 GMT

#26

On May 26 2010 03:43 SuperDoremon wrote:
well it's just an example of some cannon rush. Based on his opponent having like 300 mineral at home, I would say those 2 guys are the same level. And plus, good players dont use these cheap tricks!

Good players do use them, if it has a relatively high chance of succeeding. It's the very cheap tricks that allow you to get ahead of your opponent.

As for stopping cannon rushing, the best medicine is scouting.

graphene

Finland211 Posts

May 25 2010 19:41 GMT

#27

how many drones kill 1 newly placed pylon?

Skwonky

United States3 Posts

May 25 2010 19:45 GMT

#28

Here is a Terran game i played against a cannon rush:
(keep in mind that I'm not that good at this game =o)

Bibdy

United States3481 Posts

May 25 2010 20:02 GMT

#29

On May 26 2010 04:41 graphene wrote:
how many drones kill 1 newly placed pylon?

Well, let's see. 200sp, 200hp, 1 armour and builds in 25 seconds.

It'll take 90 hits from workers to kill the thing by the time it completes.

A worker attacks every 1.5 seconds, so you can get off 16 volleys before it completes, so that's at least 6 workers attacking it from the moment it starts building, to kill the thing.

Compared to a Photon Cannon, with 150/150 and builds in 40 seconds...

68 hits to kill the Cannon, 26 volleys in 40 seconds, only 2.5 workers needed. So, throw 3 or 4 workers on it (because they'll arrive late) and you'll easily kill it before it completes. Take the same concept to the Pylon and you're talking about 9 workers needed to kill a Pylon if you react to it being built.

If you just assume a 5-second late arrival of the Probes, then it'll take 7 (6.9) workers to kill the Pylon and 3 (2.6) workers to kill the Photon Cannon.

EyMiller245

United States45 Posts

May 25 2010 20:15 GMT

#30

On May 26 2010 04:45 Skwonky wrote:
Here is a Terran game i played against a cannon rush:
(keep in mind that I'm not that good at this game =o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiOyP0p7uEE

I thought he was gonna put a gateway in your base instead of nexus, lol. Anyway, that was fun to watch

iShotyoMoM

United States43 Posts

May 25 2010 21:11 GMT

#31

On May 26 2010 04:45 Skwonky wrote:
Here is a Terran game i played against a cannon rush:
(keep in mind that I'm not that good at this game =o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiOyP0p7uEE

el oh el @ protoss

who the hell put nexus

should have put more cannons or gateways

bakin1

United States32 Posts

May 27 2010 18:26 GMT

#32

On May 26 2010 04:45 Skwonky wrote:
Here is a Terran game i played against a cannon rush:
(keep in mind that I'm not that good at this game =o)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiOyP0p7uEE

Next time just attack the cannon as soon as it starts. Screw the pylons, that would just be 200 min he wasted. Usually cannon rushes aren't that obvious though.

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[H] How to block early photon canon

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