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On May 16 2010 13:44 BigDates wrote:they do. http://www.sinfulgaming.com/starcraft2/deathchart.php30 roach vs 30 stalkers, the stalkers win INCREDIBLY well (not to mention that this program goes based off every unit being in range of another, which is not possible to get to when stalkers can blink) and 50 roach loses to 30 stalkers when it goes based off a non-every unit hit system calculation (which would be the more ideal ball-like formation) That is 100 food vs 60 food, now zerg has ~60 food for drones, and only 40 to get hydra/infestor/ling, etc in a fair battle, as Protoss would have an additional 80. I think before when roach were 1 food that they were a decent counter against stalker/archon/HT, but not so much anymore at all.
And mineral/gas costs?
According to that thing,
10 Stalkers beats 10 Roaches, with 4 Stalkers left over (cost 500/250 more)
10 Stalkers loses to 11 Roaches, with 3 Roaches left over (cost 425/225 more)
ONE Roach makes all the difference in the world.
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On May 16 2010 23:05 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 23:01 Toran7 wrote:On May 16 2010 16:59 heishe wrote:
zvp is not winnable in the current situation if you're equally skilled to your opponent. the only viable thing vs protoss was roach/hydra/broodlord (ling/muta is totally useless now), but that is obsolete now since roaches take too much supply and hydras get countered to well by storm. Sometimes exaggerating can help prove a point, other times it makes you look like an idiot explain why it's exaggerated.
wait so you are serious about this?:
On May 16 2010 16:59 heishe wrote:
zvp is not winnable in the current situation if you're equally skilled to your opponent.
do you even know what 'not winnable' means? Yes this is obviously an exaggeration, and a stupid one at that. None of the matchups are 'unwinnable', saying or even suggesting that they are is totally absurd.
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i dont understand....... roach/ling is significantly better than stalkers, even without ling-speed.
Stalkrs cost 125/50 a roach costs 75/25. You run into kiting problems when you're not on creep, roaches are much better on Defense.
I don't know if i'd recommend zerglings because if he balls up his stalkers and blink micros well lings won't be able to do as much damage and they take SOOOO much larva. I'd get a couple just to mess up the stalker pathing but roaches are more effective.
Especially if you get burrow, he can blink micro all he wants and you can burrow micro your roaches.
Also to people QQ'ing roaches < stalkers, a roach costs almost half as much as a stalker, and heals super fast while burrowed. Even if you include the overlord cost of 4 roaches they go up to 100/25. Also as it turns out roaches work pretty good against archons and templar because of their high HP. Also, try flanking the HT's with speedlings.
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I play Protoss and I know Stalkers don't cost effectively beat roaches barring a huge cost difference or absolutely brilliant positioning and blink micro, but I still wouldn't suggest Roaches against Stalker + High templar + archon.
High templar and stalkers are cost effective against roaches and hydras (Especially hydras) as long as you have a storm per templar and good micro, or more than a storm per templar and not terrible micro. If your opponent is extremely templar heavy then maybe, but then they can also get archons, which do massive damage to Roaches.
Unless you are just outmacroing the toss player, I think mutaling is a great choice against stalker + templar. Archons are good against mutas, but he also needs them to do anything meaningful against zerglings. Also, blink micro against mutas and lings is almost nonexistent. Mix in the fact that storm does effectively little damage to mutas because of their speed and you have a really cost effective army. Sure, you may not be able to pump as many drones, but this is pretty late game stuff.
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This may be a bit idealistic, but when I hear high templar, ultras come to mind extremely quickly. Why? Going for HT's (especially if you get archons as well) means almost no gas for sentries. It also means that the majority of his army will be zealots, which get slaughtered by ultras like you wouldn't believe.
Of course ultras are hive tech. So if your opponent is going for templar mid game, they won't really help you out much. Thinking about it now, if I scouted HT tech I'd rush hive for ultras and try to delay his push with speedlings and/or some other cute stuff. I'm not sure roaches really cut it in a straight up fight.
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If toss opts for pure stalker, make lings then expand. When you scout templar tech, make some hydras or roaches. It really isn't that effective of a build, you should be able to beat him if you are around the same skill level.
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If we put tactics aside for a moment, IMO, the more units affected by one storm = the most cost effective that storm becomes.. Ex: 12 hydralisks being hit by a storm is way more cost efficient than on 4 zerglings and an ultralisk. because the damage dealt will be ([Storm damage] X 5) rather than ([Storm Damage] x 12).
Meaning that If ultralisks are part of your army composition, then I think they can potentially make psionic storms less effective because of the ultralisk's size. Correct me if I am wrong.
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On May 17 2010 09:10 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 23:18 JaspluR wrote:
dude hes asking how to beat mass stalker into arch/ht..
and youre saying just give up on zvp lol
speedling/roach should def handle mass stalkers, stalkers' damage are pretty laughable, and even with blink speedlings will still rip them apart
just defend for the time being and if he tries to push you, you can try and backstab
also mass muta can handle mass stalker well because of the splash but thats after you get more than 5-10 Well, as I was watching the replay like, 12 Stalkers took out 25ish speedlings on top of them with great micro. Not to mention, the HT's make lings laughable.
Twelve stalkers is 1500/600/24, and 25 speedlings is 625/0/7. Somehow I'm not surprised.
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Stalkers are kinda funny with blink, because it means either you will easily without losing anything by using blink or else you lose horribly because stalkers straight up are not great units if they can't abuse micro.
Normally I'd just advise straight up hydra/ling/roach assuming you open up with roach ling you can hold off stalkers with a better economy and go hydras since he can't do too much with blink vs hydras. Creep is important. Archons aren't a threat if you have any roaches. Storm is something you have to macro through. I'd go for the defensive-->overrun him natural if he tries to expo early [you can't abuse blink micro if you need to defend your main/nat. Blink is best used agressively]
That said I think stalkers are probably a solid opener that can't be easily "refuted" or something. Nazgul used a lot of them so they might be even better than I think.
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Couple of points:
-I don't think mutas are worth it if they go blink + HTs. Storm is actually pretty effective vs mutas if the toss player is smart. The trick is to time the storm when the mutas decelerate to fire so they have to accelerate again to get out of it. Mutas will take at about 30-40 damage in that scenario. So while you probably can take out most/all of his HTs most of your mutas will probably die and it's just not cost effective.
-Positioning is key. HTs always trail behind so flanks with lings work and are more cost effective than mutas. You'll probably lose most of your lings but if you catch him out of position you'll force him to storm your lings and merge into archons, which means it saves your hydras from storm which will be the main dps of your army.
-I think the standard roach/hydra/ling army is fine. If they go HTs they will have a lot of zeals, but I still don't think ultras are worth it. By the time ultras come out there will probably be quite a few archons on the field as well. Brood lords always work great vs toss as long as you support them since they have blink stalkers.
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did you scout his tech? thats all it really takes. if you see templar achives get ready to switch to roaches
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use speedlings to deal with stalkers, then transition into a hydra/roach composition with just a little lings (or not at all when they mass up archons). archons aren't that cost effective, so the more archons there are, the less templars or colosii are, which are the main threat to the zerg army. engage in an open field by surrounding your opponent so the forcefield won't be as effective.
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TDC is right about archons; they are meant to be created as a last resort when templars are out of energy and/or the protoss needs the extra boost of strength in the next minute.
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I've had some success with Roach/Ultra. There are also quite a few replays available of Artosis doing something similar. Neither Roach nor Ultralisk suffers much from Psi-storms. Roach do decently against Stalkers, and Ultras completely smash Stalkers.
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Hydra/roach owns pretty much everything Protoss can throw at you. Hydras for insane dps and roach for tanking (their dps isn't somethign to laugh at either). Maybe brood lords once you have the eco. Brood lords are pretty much a flat out "i win" button if you can support them. The key is macro. You need to be able to constantly replenish your forces faster than Protoss can destroy them.
How to do this? You need to expand aggressively. Staying on 2 or 3 bases the whole game won't do it, especially if the Protoss has equal or greater number of bases than you. Abuse the mobility of creep. Surrounds are your friend. Also try to get in the habit of not forgetting too many larva injects. The power of Zerg lies purely in inject larva; being able to instantly replenish a 200/200 army is insanely strong and you need to abuse that as a Zerg.
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On May 19 2010 06:25 Equ1NoX wrote:
This may be a bit idealistic, but when I hear high templar, ultras come to mind extremely quickly. Why? Going for HT's (especially if you get archons as well) means almost no gas for sentries.
Ultras run over FF anyway.
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EPT
