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[H] ZvP Stalker into Archon/High Templar
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
Replay :http://www.mediafire.com/?xhdtgxmlwql | ||
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Iparshuyhe
United States30 Posts
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mkfk1
United Kingdom153 Posts
His harassment was also not as good as you think. He didnt really snipe alot of overlord. Nor did he snipe all your queen. He didnt really kill a lot of workers either. But you were running in and out with your lings. If you had just engaged, they will take alot of dmg. And yes, speedling kill mass stalker. Regarding your muta harass, it wasnt aggressive. You should be flying left and right, and dening his 3rd expension. If you have enough muta, 15-20 ish, the bounce will be deadly. So far, it is rare for a protoss to survive a true muta harass without phoenix. Lastly, stalkers harass, and archon didnt kill you, storm, and his 3rd expansion did. Things to note, templer are gas heavily. He didnt really have much gas left for sentry. run your cheap lings in for a surround. Dont fight him in a choke. Strom are friendly fire. He wont strom his own stalker, if you fight him in the open, with packs of speed lings to charge in first. And if you are really creative, a few banglings to come from the back to splash the templers. Templers are light armor. PS: if you want to get muta, either be committed to it or dont get it. Mass stalkers loss to mass mutas. If you had went mass muta, and assuming you have the mirco to dodge strom, that game could have been yours. Unless Blizzard decided to change stalkers dmg in the future, stalker will suck vs light units. | ||
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Tozar
United States245 Posts
But seriously, roach/hydra compositions own stalkers and storm head to head. | ||
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Fizbin
Canada202 Posts
its so sad but its true. roach hydra ftw.. soo gay... | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
Either way, i guess i could have been more on-time with injects and made more lings, but i mean the archons would eat the lings up, he wouldnt even have to storm. | ||
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puril
United States43 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
And I'm pretty dam sure stalkers don't out-dps roaches, especially with upgrades. | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
30 roach vs 30 stalkers, the stalkers win INCREDIBLY well (not to mention that this program goes based off every unit being in range of another, which is not possible to get to when stalkers can blink) and 50 roach loses to 30 stalkers when it goes based off a non-every unit hit system calculation (which would be the more ideal ball-like formation) That is 100 food vs 60 food, now zerg has ~60 food for drones, and only 40 to get hydra/infestor/ling, etc in a fair battle, as Protoss would have an additional 80. I think before when roach were 1 food that they were a decent counter against stalker/archon/HT, but not so much anymore at all. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
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Toran7
United States160 Posts
On May 16 2010 16:59 heishe wrote: zvp is not winnable in the current situation if you're equally skilled to your opponent. the only viable thing vs protoss was roach/hydra/broodlord (ling/muta is totally useless now), but that is obsolete now since roaches take too much supply and hydras get countered to well by storm. Sometimes exaggerating can help prove a point, other times it makes you look like an idiot | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On May 16 2010 23:01 Toran7 wrote: Sometimes exaggerating can help prove a point, other times it makes you look like an idiot explain why it's exaggerated. | ||
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JaspluR
Australia174 Posts
and youre saying just give up on zvp lol speedling/roach should def handle mass stalkers, stalkers' damage are pretty laughable, and even with blink speedlings will still rip them apart just defend for the time being and if he tries to push you, you can try and backstab also mass muta can handle mass stalker well because of the splash but thats after you get more than 5-10 | ||
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BigDatez
Canada434 Posts
On May 16 2010 23:01 Toran7 wrote: Sometimes exaggerating can help prove a point, other times it makes you look like an idiot The degree of this exaggeration is very small actually. I found that i had to be atleast 2 expos ahead of my opponents in ZvP now and move out when i have 200/200 and enough minerals, gas, and larve to spawn a full army again, just to take out his army ONCE. | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
On May 16 2010 23:18 JaspluR wrote: dude hes asking how to beat mass stalker into arch/ht.. and youre saying just give up on zvp lol speedling/roach should def handle mass stalkers, stalkers' damage are pretty laughable, and even with blink speedlings will still rip them apart just defend for the time being and if he tries to push you, you can try and backstab also mass muta can handle mass stalker well because of the splash but thats after you get more than 5-10 Well, as I was watching the replay like, 12 Stalkers took out 25ish speedlings on top of them with great micro. Not to mention, the HT's make lings laughable. | ||
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Equalizer
Canada115 Posts
Zeglings should be able to hold off stalker till you get hydras. Hydra lings should beat any amount of stalkers so the protoss needs high templar. Infesters are on similar tech level as high templar and can be used to neural paracite the high templars and use their storm against the protoss blancing the storms that the protoss does manage to get off against you. | ||
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Andtwo
United States126 Posts
On May 17 2010 12:36 Equalizer wrote: Infesters are on similar tech level as high templar and can be used to neural paracite the high templars and use their storm against the protoss blancing the storms that the protoss does manage to get off against you. If you go this route, you need to get burrow and have an overseer with you (to snipe obs) because people forget about feedback. They'll feedback your casters if you can't NP them first. If you are able to NP them, I'd suggest to consider feedbacking their templar. One other question is simply on an even number of bases, does P really have enough gas for a lot of templar/archons + stalkers? If they're going more of a templar/archon/zealot comp with few stalkers, an ultra switch can catch them by surprise, especially if you have melee ups from your initial lings. | ||
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f0rgiv3n
United States112 Posts
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cbkenned2009
United States55 Posts
I like the baneling idea, generally I think banelings are amazing and sadly haven't had any zerg use them against me yet. Also, Creep. Creep is your friend. When I fight off creep, I'm not afraid of hydras, storm is destruction. When I am on creep, storm is awful, hydras just run for half second and take 20-40 damage tops (not even all of them) while my templar eat it. If I have to get in close to storm "the middle" then the templar shoudl be dead from hydras auto-fire or your micro. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On May 16 2010 13:44 BigDates wrote: they do. http://www.sinfulgaming.com/starcraft2/deathchart.php 30 roach vs 30 stalkers, the stalkers win INCREDIBLY well (not to mention that this program goes based off every unit being in range of another, which is not possible to get to when stalkers can blink) and 50 roach loses to 30 stalkers when it goes based off a non-every unit hit system calculation (which would be the more ideal ball-like formation) That is 100 food vs 60 food, now zerg has ~60 food for drones, and only 40 to get hydra/infestor/ling, etc in a fair battle, as Protoss would have an additional 80. I think before when roach were 1 food that they were a decent counter against stalker/archon/HT, but not so much anymore at all. And mineral/gas costs? According to that thing, 10 Stalkers beats 10 Roaches, with 4 Stalkers left over (cost 500/250 more) 10 Stalkers loses to 11 Roaches, with 3 Roaches left over (cost 425/225 more) ONE Roach makes all the difference in the world. | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
wait so you are serious about this?: On May 16 2010 16:59 heishe wrote: zvp is not winnable in the current situation if you're equally skilled to your opponent. do you even know what 'not winnable' means? Yes this is obviously an exaggeration, and a stupid one at that. None of the matchups are 'unwinnable', saying or even suggesting that they are is totally absurd. | ||
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DuneBug
United States668 Posts
Stalkrs cost 125/50 a roach costs 75/25. You run into kiting problems when you're not on creep, roaches are much better on Defense. I don't know if i'd recommend zerglings because if he balls up his stalkers and blink micros well lings won't be able to do as much damage and they take SOOOO much larva. I'd get a couple just to mess up the stalker pathing but roaches are more effective. Especially if you get burrow, he can blink micro all he wants and you can burrow micro your roaches. Also to people QQ'ing roaches < stalkers, a roach costs almost half as much as a stalker, and heals super fast while burrowed. Even if you include the overlord cost of 4 roaches they go up to 100/25. Also as it turns out roaches work pretty good against archons and templar because of their high HP. Also, try flanking the HT's with speedlings. | ||
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
High templar and stalkers are cost effective against roaches and hydras (Especially hydras) as long as you have a storm per templar and good micro, or more than a storm per templar and not terrible micro. If your opponent is extremely templar heavy then maybe, but then they can also get archons, which do massive damage to Roaches. Unless you are just outmacroing the toss player, I think mutaling is a great choice against stalker + templar. Archons are good against mutas, but he also needs them to do anything meaningful against zerglings. Also, blink micro against mutas and lings is almost nonexistent. Mix in the fact that storm does effectively little damage to mutas because of their speed and you have a really cost effective army. Sure, you may not be able to pump as many drones, but this is pretty late game stuff. | ||
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Equ1NoX
Slovenia6 Posts
Of course ultras are hive tech. So if your opponent is going for templar mid game, they won't really help you out much. Thinking about it now, if I scouted HT tech I'd rush hive for ultras and try to delay his push with speedlings and/or some other cute stuff. I'm not sure roaches really cut it in a straight up fight. | ||
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DragonDefonce
United States790 Posts
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FTemplar
Canada70 Posts
Meaning that If ultralisks are part of your army composition, then I think they can potentially make psionic storms less effective because of the ultralisk's size. Correct me if I am wrong. | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
On May 17 2010 09:10 Fruscainte wrote: Well, as I was watching the replay like, 12 Stalkers took out 25ish speedlings on top of them with great micro. Not to mention, the HT's make lings laughable. Twelve stalkers is 1500/600/24, and 25 speedlings is 625/0/7. Somehow I'm not surprised. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Normally I'd just advise straight up hydra/ling/roach assuming you open up with roach ling you can hold off stalkers with a better economy and go hydras since he can't do too much with blink vs hydras. Creep is important. Archons aren't a threat if you have any roaches. Storm is something you have to macro through. I'd go for the defensive-->overrun him natural if he tries to expo early [you can't abuse blink micro if you need to defend your main/nat. Blink is best used agressively] That said I think stalkers are probably a solid opener that can't be easily "refuted" or something. Nazgul used a lot of them so they might be even better than I think. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
-I don't think mutas are worth it if they go blink + HTs. Storm is actually pretty effective vs mutas if the toss player is smart. The trick is to time the storm when the mutas decelerate to fire so they have to accelerate again to get out of it. Mutas will take at about 30-40 damage in that scenario. So while you probably can take out most/all of his HTs most of your mutas will probably die and it's just not cost effective. -Positioning is key. HTs always trail behind so flanks with lings work and are more cost effective than mutas. You'll probably lose most of your lings but if you catch him out of position you'll force him to storm your lings and merge into archons, which means it saves your hydras from storm which will be the main dps of your army. -I think the standard roach/hydra/ling army is fine. If they go HTs they will have a lot of zeals, but I still don't think ultras are worth it. By the time ultras come out there will probably be quite a few archons on the field as well. Brood lords always work great vs toss as long as you support them since they have blink stalkers. | ||
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KrUtiAL
United States41 Posts
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TDC
United States197 Posts
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FTemplar
Canada70 Posts
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MLG_Wiggin
United States767 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
How to do this? You need to expand aggressively. Staying on 2 or 3 bases the whole game won't do it, especially if the Protoss has equal or greater number of bases than you. Abuse the mobility of creep. Surrounds are your friend. Also try to get in the habit of not forgetting too many larva injects. The power of Zerg lies purely in inject larva; being able to instantly replenish a 200/200 army is insanely strong and you need to abuse that as a Zerg. | ||
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hellokitty[hk]
United States1309 Posts
On May 19 2010 06:25 Equ1NoX wrote: This may be a bit idealistic, but when I hear high templar, ultras come to mind extremely quickly. Why? Going for HT's (especially if you get archons as well) means almost no gas for sentries. Ultras run over FF anyway. | ||
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