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On May 16 2010 06:42 iEchoic wrote:
Marines don't counter void rays until you have stim (otherwise you can just pull back the weak rays) and you have 6-8+. Stim takes forever to research.
you don't need the counter until you're pushing, though. in your base, turrets 100% defend against void rays. if you're pushing out without +1 and stim (which is what you need to beat void rays food for food) you need to rearrange your build
if you haven't been able to scout or you scouted what looked like some hidden buildings, throw down an ebay and turret up and you'll be fine
i like getting stim fast vs protoss anyway because it bolsters early marauder aggression so well
then if void rays pop you can stim your marauders and run back to your turrets, and you should have 8 marines by the time the void rays get to you
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On May 16 2010 00:07 KaiserJohan wrote:
An early marauder/ghost combo TvZ is insane. And you can fool Z with early techlab on rax that your going reaper harrass.
Of course they would have problems defending aginst splings but you've scared the zerg to go with queens, roaches and spines early to protect against reaper rush since lings without speed wont do much harm to them.
I sense some logic fail here. Speedlings > reaper. Why'd he need extra roaches/queens/spines against that. If I see your rax with techlab and you still don't have a reaper, then it's highly probable that even if you were making them I'd have speed on lings already before you came with 2-3 of them.
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On May 16 2010 03:50 spinesheath wrote:
Terrans definitely should always have at least 1 Raven in mid/lategame tvz (maybe not if they are slow pushing with turrets). With addon swapping it isn't that expensive and PDD + detection definitely is worth the money. Detection does not only prevent you from instantly losing to burrowed roaches, it also helps with reducing the creep on the map which is very important.
Agreed. I think the main thing is not to pretend Ravens are Science Vessels and that you can just pump them out like crazy. Make one or two and keep it alive.
It makes for a really good transition if you started off with some Banshee harassment. And you'll need a StarPort anyway to get those Medivacs out.
On May 16 2010 03:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
I haven't tried ghosts, but if they are so good because the zerg army is mostly light, why not use hellions instead? A little flank and the splash damage is ridiculous. And they are way cheaper and faster.
Who says you can't do both? Hellions only cost minerals. And you don't need that many Ghosts to make them worthwhile.
On May 16 2010 06:42 iEchoic wrote:
The only downside to this is that VRs are going to get nerfed so you're going to be wasting your time getting good at a strat that isn't going to last long.
I love how people can make these random predictions about which units will get nerfed and which won't. Unless Blizzard has actually said that a nerf is incoming, don't expect to see one.
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Base placement vs void ray is easy. Don't build near edges so marines can go to the edge, and the void ray is within firing range of marines. You don't need stim, you'll hold off 1-2 void rays and force them to fall back. You didn't kill them, but they didn't kill you.
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The problem with void rays is that your marines are sitting at your choke to defend against a ground force, but the void rays can just come behind your base and get charged from your refinery before your marines are able to run back. Once they are charged, your marines are seriously and completely fucked. They can dance their VR for up to 3 seconds while staying fully charged. It's just really sick.
Option two, stick stalkers right ouside of your bunker range. Then use VR's to target the bunker. Charge up to max, since the marines can't hit your VRs without being picked off by your stalkers.
It seems that the only option that Terran has is to turtle up in his main while being harassed by VRs while the toss expands. If you turtle incorrectly, you just straight up die.
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Current MMM builds definetely allow for some extra gas to be put towards ravens.
The only thing you need gas for in MMM is medivacs and upgrades....neither of which require all the gas that 3 bases can produce. Ravens against Hydras and Mutalisks are just invaluable for PDD.
Points to the qxc vs machine game on Kulas ravine. qxc had 15 ravens. FIFTEEN. Yea thats ridiculous like that game was, but it enabled him to completely shut down machine's armies.
Even just having 2-3 and using 6 PDD allows you to just turn back massive hydra armies. HSM also allows you to force your opponent to micro more, or retreat, or take a fair amount of damage.
So yes ravens are awesome and should be built more with MMM bio balls. When you go mech they aren't so great (still the same usage, but you need the gas for tanks/thors/vikings).
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I have thought about the raven, even a friend told me to start make them more, but when you think about it, they cost alot of gas, and the pdd isn't immediatly ready, making a few ravens shrinks your army alot. I have been having problems trying to fit a few ravens in.
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Regarding the OP...
Ravens are awesome, the first time you put down PDD's and laugh as your army takes no damage you'll be converted for life. True that they aren't used enough, but ravens are gas-heavy.
Ghosts are at best 'okay' against zerg. Certainly not much of a gamechanger given that for the same price you could have a siege tank out. I've had success with them fending off mutalisks. That's about it.
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Ghost vs zerg is meh at best they are ok but cost a shit tone and would rather go tanks or just more bio and upgrades or somthing. Only go ghost when its vs infestors others wise waste of min
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On May 19 2010 04:48 link0 wrote:
The problem with void rays is that your marines are sitting at your choke to defend against a ground force, but the void rays can just come behind your base and get charged from your refinery before your marines are able to run back. Once they are charged, your marines are seriously and completely fucked. They can dance their VR for up to 3 seconds while staying fully charged. It's just really sick.
pretty sure this is why you build depots at the edges of your base and watch the minimap. plus, you should be scanning their base for stargates long before there are actually void rays at your door, at which point you pull your marines back to the center of your base (or, you know... just build turrets)
just because you can't position your units properly doesn't mean it's not possible
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On May 19 2010 05:56 baytripper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 04:48 link0 wrote:
The problem with void rays is that your marines are sitting at your choke to defend against a ground force, but the void rays can just come behind your base and get charged from your refinery before your marines are able to run back. Once they are charged, your marines are seriously and completely fucked. They can dance their VR for up to 3 seconds while staying fully charged. It's just really sick. pretty sure this is why you build depots at the edges of your base and watch the minimap. plus, you should be scanning their base for stargates long before there are actually void rays at your door, at which point you pull your marines back to the center of your base (or, you know... just build turrets) just because you can't position your units properly doesn't mean it's not possible
So apparently, to prevent VR from charging up, you suggest building supply depots on the edges of your base? Am I mis-reading something or are you being sarcastic? You want to give VRs even more easy targets to pre-charge from?
Last time I checked, no halfway decent protoss player will build stargets inside their base. 270 minerals gone, likely for nothing. Great.
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When I see void rays I tend to overreact. But I don't think it's a great idea against Terran. They are killed very easily by marines and they're too slow to micro. But I can see value in timing a mineral line harrass with a regular push. When I play toss I have a problem affording this but my Protoss macro game is not great in the first place.
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void rays arent expensive? arent they as much as scouts in BW? or are they more?
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Void rays also have 2x the range of Scouts and 3x the ground dps. Not that this comparison means diddily squat. There is really little reason why a toss player would NOT make 1-3 void rays vs Terran. Not only do they harrass, bunker bust, and counter banshees, they also give you free scouting information without needing observers.
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On May 16 2010 02:24 poor newb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 23:55 OHtRUe wrote:
4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control. cost little? you risk losing half your army and losing the game outright if detected, and by the time you can even get burrow detection are pretty much everywhere
agreed.. if i recall correctly its 150/150 for burrow.. another 100/100 for roach burrow.. each of them takes about 2 mins to research.. if not 3 for burrow... so totaling up to 5 mins ( maybe less , doesnt matter.. you need to do it early if you wanna use it in midgame )
if you get detected.. and you actually use more than 3 units.. which frankly would kill 5 probes at best.. and wouldnt be worth neither unit or upgrade cost.. you can instantly loose the game if detected.. shit you can sneak into someone base with 10-15 roaches.. kill half the base.. loose roaches.. and still loose the game..
i dont see how you imagine burrowed banelings harassing workers.. place them there before expansions? lmao..
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3. Toss not opening up with void rays every game. Seriously they threaten so much and give you enough time to try some FE play and pretty much give toss control of the game.
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Yes, threaten, time no, you're assuming theyre succesful, if not its just a simple matter of your opponent 1a-ing you right there, more time has been lost than gained tbh. Also by this point its possibly still fast but not really a very FE, more of just an E. Again their control is dependant solely on their success at cheese basewiping your opponent.
They also dont cost that much and you can easily tech switch out of them
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no, very expensive
you can easily tech switch out of them
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not true
Cant speak for the rest of the post, apart from number 5, which you seem to have just lifted from jinro's play in the fantastic mr plott's show.
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on #4, This would be more viable if it wasn't a huge cost to get burrow/move for roaches. I like burrowing roaches and moving them to the mineral line, but either they will have detection or I'll get killed by air, since my anti air is delayed (or you can get ant air first, then burrow, but by then there will certainly be detection.
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I usually burrow my Roaches and sneak them into opponent's base and rape his workers if he doesn't wall-in. Since the new patch I haven't tried it yet but with roaches costing 2 supply it doesn't look very promising.
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1. You see 3 if rushes are spotted. It's there if Z needs it.
2. Humm... k
3. Hu?!
4. Yeah.... 100/100 Lair only, hard to justify it unless the match calls for it
5. Why? Ghost requires micro, mass Maruaders doesn't. Enough stimmed Maruaders with Medivacs counters everything aside from Broodlords. Timing push using this ball of imbal and T wins before Broodlords come into play.
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Protoss players arnt using warpgates to their fullest, maybe its a APM cap but i wouldn't think so. Warp in a unit, transform into gateway build a unit and switch back. It will produce faster depending on what units you build and i hope we do see more of the higher APM players trying this
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EPT
