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On May 16 2010 00:27 Trezeguet23 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 00:17 MattDamon wrote:
1. Sure
2.No
3.No NO no
4. Makes since to me
5. Slams head against desk Care to elaborate?
2. PDD is good, but overall ravens are very gas expensive where I find I always need more gas. Sure people could use ravens a little more, but I do not believe they are some godly unit no one is using. I would say for the most part they cost more than they are worth.
3.Doing any strategy every game is a bad idea, void rays are not that hard to counter, and I find that strategy to be the most annoying strategy that about half the Protoss I face use.
4. I can't spell
5. Ghosts Emp used on infesters could be worthwhile, but ghosts cost 150/150 so it is going to be hard to get enough snipe shots off to make them cost effective as a normal unit.
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4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control.
Banelings cant burrow move, and any half-decent player will get a cannon/turret up against zerg before any type of normal build can get burrow-move for roaches upgraded (to counter mutalisk threat, not to mention roach burrow)
Roach burrow however is good mid-battle if a T forgets to get any ravens out, but constant scans counter it. The only major use of burrow move i notice right now is in ZvP against hightemplar mass (1 storm does 20 DPS for 4 seconds, a roach w/ regen heals 15/s)
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One thing I've noticed people aren't doing enough...
+ Show Spoiler +Fucking EXPAND beyond one base!
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ghosts do garbage damage.
are you serious
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@MattDamon
I would have agreed with you at one point but the latest day[9] daily actually shows great use of ghosts vs zerg.
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Terrans definitely should always have at least 1 Raven in mid/lategame tvz (maybe not if they are slow pushing with turrets). With addon swapping it isn't that expensive and PDD + detection definitely is worth the money. Detection does not only prevent you from instantly losing to burrowed roaches, it also helps with reducing the creep on the map which is very important.
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ghosts do garbage damage.
When was the last time you checked Ghost damage sir?
Ghosts do the same damage as Marauders. Except the bonus damage they do is vs. light as opposed to the Marauders doing their bonus damage vs. armored.
As of Patch 12, roach play has been severely handicapped and zerg go for mutaling or hydraling combos largely (this was true even before the patch due to Marauder saturation in TvZ play). So the army composition for Zerg against Terran consists of almost exclusively light armored units.
Combined with Cloak/EMP to nullify infestors completely and Sniper rounds to take out key units like banelings (one shot) or thin out the herd of Hydras/Mutas, you can now see how powerful Ghosts are.
That is a HUGE advantage for Terrans smart enough to incorporate ghosts into their play. Never underestimate a unit unless you've tested it yourself.
Good day.
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I haven't tried ghosts, but if they are so good because the zerg army is mostly light, why not use hellions instead? A little flank and the splash damage is ridiculous. And they are way cheaper and faster.
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Void Ray's suck, you'll never beat a good terran opening void ray. Other points are somewhat valid.
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The problem with ghosts is that they cost a lot of gas, and take higher apm to use. I and many others simply don't have the multitasking to make them effective, unless we want to neglect our macro. I really wouldn't use ghosts unless you do have the speed and multitasking.
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Ghosts are good, but making them just to snipe... I dunno.....Maybe if you incorporate some Nukes while being attacked or attacking on critical locations in their base?
I do agree with Ravens though. Defense Drone is very strong.
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On May 16 2010 03:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
I haven't tried ghosts, but if they are so good because the zerg army is mostly light, why not use hellions instead? A little flank and the splash damage is ridiculous. And they are way cheaper and faster.
A valid point. Helions are indeed great against Zerg army compositions, specially early on for harass, contain and map control.
But I think it would be wise to transition out of them once the matchup hits mid-game. The threat of Mutas is always a valid concern for Terran in that matchup and if you early Helion harass, Zerg is far more likely to transition into mutas, which can be handily countered and sniped by the ghosts.
Secondly, large army sizes on both sides make flanking maneuvers with large numbers of Helions quite unweildly. I'm sure we've all had a hard time making a concave with our main army itself, let alone start a flank with a breakaway force. Zerglings do this extremely well since they're extremely fast and fit in anywhere, but Helions, while quick, will have a tough time doing so in most parts of any of the current maps (speaking in terms of 1v1 ofcourse).
Meanwhile ghosts can initiate/scout with cloak and once the fight starts, stay within the bio-ball of your MMM combo and still wreak havoc with sniper shots to take out key units (amazing range and really cheap on energy cost), emp as needed and still provide significant dps (exact same damage as marauders except they do bonus vs. light instead of armoured) without getting in anyone's way.
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Voidrays don't really work anymore. People go marine + ghost rather than marauder now. zerglings + 4 queens also heavily counters voidrays.
Ghosts are VERY hard to use properly. they die quickly and their snipe ability has pretty large cooldown. It has no AoE, and the shift+click snipe is broken(unless that's intentional, which would make sense). In order to snipe, you have to not be firing. Every time you snipe, your ghost starts autofiring again. This means that you have to snipe, hit the hold fire button, and repeat against mass units. It is very difficult to do, and that's why we don't see anybody using MGM. Also, marauders and marines are very effective so there isn't much of a reason to change that strategy.
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OP point about 3 queens without scout is good.
There are times the scout gets denied... no matter who you r, mirco fail or whatever it happens...
(he's not saying don't scout, just that should you not know... build a 3rd)
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Void Rays are awesome in PvT, because they force your opponent to build AA if they don't want to die after they push out. If you combine them with mainly zealot/sentry ground army, they can do incredible damage because even if you lose most of your ground force, 2 VRs that you built for harass will easily clean up. However lately I've been toying with phoenixes and they are basically the same thing, they just can't attack buildings and are more easily countered by vikings.
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1. this is a good idea, i get free banshee wins all the time against zerg but if i see three queens you set my harass back until i get cloak or my fourth banshee pops, and it's not like you can ever have too many creep tumors. if you're not rushing lair tech you should make extra queens.
2. ravens are insanely good but i think there are definite reasons why we don't see more. they are a lategame unit, they are strictly not useful until hydralisk numbers get up around 30 food or so, before that we can easily hold with tanks or good marauder micro and there's no reason to waste the gas. in TvT they're not useful until viking armies get big enough to be worth protecting. in TvP they're pretty much a reactive unit, if we don't see large stalker numbers we need to prioritize ghosts. i think overproducing ravens or getting them too early is a fairly large error (especially since the three other starport units have utility in every matchup). i too cringe when terran engages a huge lategame hydra army with naked marauders and no ravens or loses to a roach burrow that was easily avoided, but there's no reason to overreact, the raven niche is very important but very small.
3. i don't know why you think they don't cost much, making a double stargate and then not utilizing it for the rest of the game sets you back significantly when you consider that it's cutting into your ability to advance to other tech. they're a great unit but if you don't have a smooth transition you'll find yourself falling behind if you break even on your first four. it's strictly not as useful a tech branch as terran or zerg air and there are plenty of solid protoss openings.
4. i don't think this is underused at all, with players like slush showing the power of it over and over everyone will be doing it within the month
5. snipe is not insanely good i don't know where you get your facts but for the amount of gas it takes to get ghosts up we could do FAR more damage with factory units. ghosts are barely good enough to use in the matchup because of EMP but there are just plain better places to use your gas.
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void rays are very easy to counter if terran because terran usually MMM
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I think you are underestimating how much it costs to get void rays. You say they aren't expensive but they are, especially early game. 250 minerals and 150 gas... that's a decent amount. Plus they take a while to build unless chrono boosted and if you're scouted its really hard to pull this off. a couple turrets, an extra queen, or cannons can wreck 2 void rays.
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If you have a large enough army, ghosts are very beneficial. Every 25 energy on a cost negates 50 minerals and 25 gas from zerg. 4 ghosts at half energy will kill 8 hydralisks at the start of the fight, before they start doing 11 dmg a shot to them. If you're keeping track, that's 600/600 for 800/400 before the fight starts. If you made a raven, you negate 20 hydralisk shots. This is the preferred army composition against zerg on maps where tank play is limited due to large flanking areas.
1 snipe kills a baneling, 2 snipes kills a hydralisk, 2 kill an infestor, 3 kill a mutalisk. The only units ghosts aren't particularly good against are roaches and zerglings.
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On May 16 2010 00:39 iounas wrote:
I agree with all except voidray.. Its not hard at all to counter it.. Few marines or 2 queens..
Ghost could be terran dark templar and to snipe stuff in a battle.. and their attack isnt bad..
Marines don't counter void rays until you have stim (otherwise you can just pull back the weak rays) and you have 6-8+. Stim takes forever to research. Marines countering void rays is a complete misconception unless you're talking about late-game. You cannot counter voids with marines unless you have stim.
If you open to voids and get your voids charged on a terran player's base before being intercepted, the game is over. Vikings, marines, anything, will just get completely fried. The only downside to this is that VRs are going to get nerfed so you're going to be wasting your time getting good at a strat that isn't going to last long.
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EPT
