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1. Zergs not going 3 queen against terran or protoss when they dont have the scout. Seriously 150 minerals and it prevents your opponent from getting a free win and theres pretty much no drawbacks from getting another one. Queens are good units for everything not just spawn larva.
2. Not enough ravens. Seriously this unit is INSANELY GOOD. Point defense drone is pretty much the dark swarm of SC 2. Ravens also supplement marauders VERY good and you dont even need the fusion core... HSM is just a bonus if you want to get that. Also i know there gas heavy, but seriously when you get your expo you should definitely get them.
3. Toss not opening up with void rays every game. Seriously they threaten so much and give you enough time to try some FE play and pretty much give toss control of the game. They also dont cost that much and you can easily tech switch out of them
4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control.
5. Lack of ghosts against Zerg. Snipe is again insanely good (EVEN THOUGH THE SOUND IS ANNOYING AND THERES A FIRE CAP, plz fix blizzard). Ghosts are ridicolously good against hydras, mutas, and snipe limits infestor play, BROODLORDS and roaches. Again cheap tech switch that has a big affect on the game.
Hope you guys try to incorporate some of this in your play.
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I agree with four of those points. Strongly.
But... Opening with void rays every game ? If you're scouted, your void rays won't do a thing. Even against a zerg. Going 4 queen against void ray rush is quite common nowadays.
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i also agree with you
but
like maggeus said: void rays are easy counteresd by queens ore marines.
and
the sniper ability is pretty micro intensive, so most players just dont have the apm to do it!
but if you can use it correctly it definetly is strong!
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An early marauder/ghost combo TvZ is insane. And you can fool Z with early techlab on rax that your going reaper harrass.
Of course they would have problems defending aginst splings but you've scared the zerg to go with queens, roaches and spines early to protect against reaper rush since lings without speed wont do much harm to them.
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1. Sure
2.No
3.No NO no
4. Makes since to me
5. Slams head against desk
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One Void Ray against Zerg is handy. You can fly it around the map, killing Overlords or sniping his Creep Tumors if he tries to scout that way.
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3 and 5 are just retarded
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On May 16 2010 00:17 MattDamon wrote:
1. Sure
2.No
3.No NO no
4. Makes since to me
5. Slams head against desk
Care to elaborate?
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T need more tanks. Seriously.
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On May 16 2010 00:17 MattDamon wrote:
1. Sure
2.No
3.No NO no
4. Makes since to me
5. Slams head against desk
I "since" a ban coming.
Anywho, ghosts are incredibly good against zerg units. I don't know why we haven't seen MGM in play. Ghosts are better than mauraders in my opinion against any zerg units.
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I agree with all except voidray.. Its not hard at all to counter it.. Few marines or 2 queens..
Ghost could be terran dark templar and to snipe stuff in a battle.. and their attack isnt bad..
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If you want to snipe overlords around the map, just get a pheonix, much better. They are also insta-win against mutas. I am much more carefull where I place my overlords now.
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On May 16 2010 00:36 denzelz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 00:17 MattDamon wrote:
1. Sure
2.No
3.No NO no
4. Makes since to me
5. Slams head against desk I "since" a ban coming. Anywho, ghosts are incredibly good against zerg units. I don't know why we haven't seen MGM in play. Ghosts are better than mauraders in my opinion against any zerg units.
lol not true at all.
marauders hellions vikings are the best combo.
Thors wreck mutas
ghosts do garbage damage.
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I think you underestimate how much gas ravens and ghosts cost
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On May 16 2010 00:47 KaiserJohan wrote:
They are also insta-win against mutas. I am much more carefull where I place my overlords now.
Oh please, that was SO last week. If you still crying how to fight phoenix's with muta you should quit zerg now.
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On May 15 2010 23:55 OHtRUe wrote:
4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control.
cost little? you risk losing half your army and losing the game outright if detected, and by the time you can even get burrow detection are pretty much everywhere
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On May 16 2010 00:50 Snowfield wrote:
I think you underestimate how much gas ravens and ghosts cost
There you go. Main reason why you don't see too much of Ghost or Ravens use. However they are awesome support units.
I always try to incorporate a Raven into my army. Ghosts I have used less of and would definitely try to incorporate them into a specific build.
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"Anywho, ghosts are incredibly good against zerg units. I don't know why we haven't seen MGM in play. Ghosts are better than mauraders in my opinion against any zerg units. "
WHAT
We have no anti armor unit, so hydra is our best bet and they are just even with rauders at best..
How the are ghosts better than rauders? They cost a shit ton and snipe is just mediocre
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1. If you're not scouting then you're not playing correctly....the only time i don't scout is when i go cheese I do agree however an extra Queen doesn't hurt, but it will change up well structured BOs (i.e. later roach den, 2 less roaches, or 3 less lings, 1 less spine crawler...etc...
2. Agreed but do current builds support that much gas usage?
3. Disagree and this point is in direct contradiction to your post. You're saying that we should see more of [x] in our game play. If everyone started with VR as Toss, then you wouldn't see any other variations. I know the effectiveness of VRs but starting with them all the time could spell disaster
4. Agree. I wished that Roaches just had burrow built in but that would be imba. to offset the possible imba of built in burrow I would make it so that when the roaches first burrow the healing rate will be slow but will speed up the longer they burrow. AND when they move and burrow the healing rate will not max out...
5. Pretty sure you're right about this but kinda contradicts your Raven statement. Do i use both? or just one one or the other?
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On May 15 2010 23:55 OHtRUe wrote:
1. Zergs not going 3 queen against terran or protoss when they dont have the scout. Seriously 150 minerals and it prevents your opponent from getting a free win and theres pretty much no drawbacks from getting another one. Queens are good units for everything not just spawn larva.
2. Not enough ravens. Seriously this unit is INSANELY GOOD. Point defense drone is pretty much the dark swarm of SC 2. Ravens also supplement marauders VERY good and you dont even need the fusion core... HSM is just a bonus if you want to get that. Also i know there gas heavy, but seriously when you get your expo you should definitely get them.
3. Toss not opening up with void rays every game. Seriously they threaten so much and give you enough time to try some FE play and pretty much give toss control of the game. They also dont cost that much and you can easily tech switch out of them
4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control.
5. Lack of ghosts against Zerg. Snipe is again insanely good (EVEN THOUGH THE SOUND IS ANNOYING AND THERES A FIRE CAP, plz fix blizzard). Ghosts are ridicolously good against hydras, mutas, and snipe limits infestor play, BROODLORDS and roaches. Again cheap tech switch that has a big affect on the game.
Hope you guys try to incorporate some of this in your play.
Opening 2 gate voidray is deadly and SHOULD be used every game! Don't mass voidrays, that's dumb. Build one, maybe two along with your army and you will see how effective that can be, especially if Terran didn't build a viking, then use everything to target fire marines and melt the rest away/or use two voids to cause distraction in base and attack with main army. I think a lot of people in the thread are thinking you meant massing voidrays or something.
I think MGM has been done at pro level by... was it machine? Worked really well, until zerg masses roaches like an asshole and then you fall behind because you lack gas for raven/tank. But hey, the nerf might slow the roaches piling in and MGM might work these days. I'll try MGM out.
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On May 16 2010 00:27 Trezeguet23 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 00:17 MattDamon wrote:
1. Sure
2.No
3.No NO no
4. Makes since to me
5. Slams head against desk Care to elaborate?
2. PDD is good, but overall ravens are very gas expensive where I find I always need more gas. Sure people could use ravens a little more, but I do not believe they are some godly unit no one is using. I would say for the most part they cost more than they are worth.
3.Doing any strategy every game is a bad idea, void rays are not that hard to counter, and I find that strategy to be the most annoying strategy that about half the Protoss I face use.
4. I can't spell
5. Ghosts Emp used on infesters could be worthwhile, but ghosts cost 150/150 so it is going to be hard to get enough snipe shots off to make them cost effective as a normal unit.
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4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control.
Banelings cant burrow move, and any half-decent player will get a cannon/turret up against zerg before any type of normal build can get burrow-move for roaches upgraded (to counter mutalisk threat, not to mention roach burrow)
Roach burrow however is good mid-battle if a T forgets to get any ravens out, but constant scans counter it. The only major use of burrow move i notice right now is in ZvP against hightemplar mass (1 storm does 20 DPS for 4 seconds, a roach w/ regen heals 15/s)
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One thing I've noticed people aren't doing enough...
+ Show Spoiler +Fucking EXPAND beyond one base!
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ghosts do garbage damage.
are you serious
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@MattDamon
I would have agreed with you at one point but the latest day[9] daily actually shows great use of ghosts vs zerg.
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Terrans definitely should always have at least 1 Raven in mid/lategame tvz (maybe not if they are slow pushing with turrets). With addon swapping it isn't that expensive and PDD + detection definitely is worth the money. Detection does not only prevent you from instantly losing to burrowed roaches, it also helps with reducing the creep on the map which is very important.
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ghosts do garbage damage.
When was the last time you checked Ghost damage sir?
Ghosts do the same damage as Marauders. Except the bonus damage they do is vs. light as opposed to the Marauders doing their bonus damage vs. armored.
As of Patch 12, roach play has been severely handicapped and zerg go for mutaling or hydraling combos largely (this was true even before the patch due to Marauder saturation in TvZ play). So the army composition for Zerg against Terran consists of almost exclusively light armored units.
Combined with Cloak/EMP to nullify infestors completely and Sniper rounds to take out key units like banelings (one shot) or thin out the herd of Hydras/Mutas, you can now see how powerful Ghosts are.
That is a HUGE advantage for Terrans smart enough to incorporate ghosts into their play. Never underestimate a unit unless you've tested it yourself.
Good day.
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I haven't tried ghosts, but if they are so good because the zerg army is mostly light, why not use hellions instead? A little flank and the splash damage is ridiculous. And they are way cheaper and faster.
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Void Ray's suck, you'll never beat a good terran opening void ray. Other points are somewhat valid.
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The problem with ghosts is that they cost a lot of gas, and take higher apm to use. I and many others simply don't have the multitasking to make them effective, unless we want to neglect our macro. I really wouldn't use ghosts unless you do have the speed and multitasking.
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Ghosts are good, but making them just to snipe... I dunno.....Maybe if you incorporate some Nukes while being attacked or attacking on critical locations in their base?
I do agree with Ravens though. Defense Drone is very strong.
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On May 16 2010 03:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
I haven't tried ghosts, but if they are so good because the zerg army is mostly light, why not use hellions instead? A little flank and the splash damage is ridiculous. And they are way cheaper and faster.
A valid point. Helions are indeed great against Zerg army compositions, specially early on for harass, contain and map control.
But I think it would be wise to transition out of them once the matchup hits mid-game. The threat of Mutas is always a valid concern for Terran in that matchup and if you early Helion harass, Zerg is far more likely to transition into mutas, which can be handily countered and sniped by the ghosts.
Secondly, large army sizes on both sides make flanking maneuvers with large numbers of Helions quite unweildly. I'm sure we've all had a hard time making a concave with our main army itself, let alone start a flank with a breakaway force. Zerglings do this extremely well since they're extremely fast and fit in anywhere, but Helions, while quick, will have a tough time doing so in most parts of any of the current maps (speaking in terms of 1v1 ofcourse).
Meanwhile ghosts can initiate/scout with cloak and once the fight starts, stay within the bio-ball of your MMM combo and still wreak havoc with sniper shots to take out key units (amazing range and really cheap on energy cost), emp as needed and still provide significant dps (exact same damage as marauders except they do bonus vs. light instead of armoured) without getting in anyone's way.
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Voidrays don't really work anymore. People go marine + ghost rather than marauder now. zerglings + 4 queens also heavily counters voidrays.
Ghosts are VERY hard to use properly. they die quickly and their snipe ability has pretty large cooldown. It has no AoE, and the shift+click snipe is broken(unless that's intentional, which would make sense). In order to snipe, you have to not be firing. Every time you snipe, your ghost starts autofiring again. This means that you have to snipe, hit the hold fire button, and repeat against mass units. It is very difficult to do, and that's why we don't see anybody using MGM. Also, marauders and marines are very effective so there isn't much of a reason to change that strategy.
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OP point about 3 queens without scout is good.
There are times the scout gets denied... no matter who you r, mirco fail or whatever it happens...
(he's not saying don't scout, just that should you not know... build a 3rd)
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Void Rays are awesome in PvT, because they force your opponent to build AA if they don't want to die after they push out. If you combine them with mainly zealot/sentry ground army, they can do incredible damage because even if you lose most of your ground force, 2 VRs that you built for harass will easily clean up. However lately I've been toying with phoenixes and they are basically the same thing, they just can't attack buildings and are more easily countered by vikings.
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1. this is a good idea, i get free banshee wins all the time against zerg but if i see three queens you set my harass back until i get cloak or my fourth banshee pops, and it's not like you can ever have too many creep tumors. if you're not rushing lair tech you should make extra queens.
2. ravens are insanely good but i think there are definite reasons why we don't see more. they are a lategame unit, they are strictly not useful until hydralisk numbers get up around 30 food or so, before that we can easily hold with tanks or good marauder micro and there's no reason to waste the gas. in TvT they're not useful until viking armies get big enough to be worth protecting. in TvP they're pretty much a reactive unit, if we don't see large stalker numbers we need to prioritize ghosts. i think overproducing ravens or getting them too early is a fairly large error (especially since the three other starport units have utility in every matchup). i too cringe when terran engages a huge lategame hydra army with naked marauders and no ravens or loses to a roach burrow that was easily avoided, but there's no reason to overreact, the raven niche is very important but very small.
3. i don't know why you think they don't cost much, making a double stargate and then not utilizing it for the rest of the game sets you back significantly when you consider that it's cutting into your ability to advance to other tech. they're a great unit but if you don't have a smooth transition you'll find yourself falling behind if you break even on your first four. it's strictly not as useful a tech branch as terran or zerg air and there are plenty of solid protoss openings.
4. i don't think this is underused at all, with players like slush showing the power of it over and over everyone will be doing it within the month
5. snipe is not insanely good i don't know where you get your facts but for the amount of gas it takes to get ghosts up we could do FAR more damage with factory units. ghosts are barely good enough to use in the matchup because of EMP but there are just plain better places to use your gas.
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void rays are very easy to counter if terran because terran usually MMM
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I think you are underestimating how much it costs to get void rays. You say they aren't expensive but they are, especially early game. 250 minerals and 150 gas... that's a decent amount. Plus they take a while to build unless chrono boosted and if you're scouted its really hard to pull this off. a couple turrets, an extra queen, or cannons can wreck 2 void rays.
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If you have a large enough army, ghosts are very beneficial. Every 25 energy on a cost negates 50 minerals and 25 gas from zerg. 4 ghosts at half energy will kill 8 hydralisks at the start of the fight, before they start doing 11 dmg a shot to them. If you're keeping track, that's 600/600 for 800/400 before the fight starts. If you made a raven, you negate 20 hydralisk shots. This is the preferred army composition against zerg on maps where tank play is limited due to large flanking areas.
1 snipe kills a baneling, 2 snipes kills a hydralisk, 2 kill an infestor, 3 kill a mutalisk. The only units ghosts aren't particularly good against are roaches and zerglings.
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On May 16 2010 00:39 iounas wrote:
I agree with all except voidray.. Its not hard at all to counter it.. Few marines or 2 queens..
Ghost could be terran dark templar and to snipe stuff in a battle.. and their attack isnt bad..
Marines don't counter void rays until you have stim (otherwise you can just pull back the weak rays) and you have 6-8+. Stim takes forever to research. Marines countering void rays is a complete misconception unless you're talking about late-game. You cannot counter voids with marines unless you have stim.
If you open to voids and get your voids charged on a terran player's base before being intercepted, the game is over. Vikings, marines, anything, will just get completely fried. The only downside to this is that VRs are going to get nerfed so you're going to be wasting your time getting good at a strat that isn't going to last long.
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On May 16 2010 06:42 iEchoic wrote:
Marines don't counter void rays until you have stim (otherwise you can just pull back the weak rays) and you have 6-8+. Stim takes forever to research.
you don't need the counter until you're pushing, though. in your base, turrets 100% defend against void rays. if you're pushing out without +1 and stim (which is what you need to beat void rays food for food) you need to rearrange your build
if you haven't been able to scout or you scouted what looked like some hidden buildings, throw down an ebay and turret up and you'll be fine
i like getting stim fast vs protoss anyway because it bolsters early marauder aggression so well
then if void rays pop you can stim your marauders and run back to your turrets, and you should have 8 marines by the time the void rays get to you
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On May 16 2010 00:07 KaiserJohan wrote:
An early marauder/ghost combo TvZ is insane. And you can fool Z with early techlab on rax that your going reaper harrass.
Of course they would have problems defending aginst splings but you've scared the zerg to go with queens, roaches and spines early to protect against reaper rush since lings without speed wont do much harm to them.
I sense some logic fail here. Speedlings > reaper. Why'd he need extra roaches/queens/spines against that. If I see your rax with techlab and you still don't have a reaper, then it's highly probable that even if you were making them I'd have speed on lings already before you came with 2-3 of them.
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On May 16 2010 03:50 spinesheath wrote:
Terrans definitely should always have at least 1 Raven in mid/lategame tvz (maybe not if they are slow pushing with turrets). With addon swapping it isn't that expensive and PDD + detection definitely is worth the money. Detection does not only prevent you from instantly losing to burrowed roaches, it also helps with reducing the creep on the map which is very important.
Agreed. I think the main thing is not to pretend Ravens are Science Vessels and that you can just pump them out like crazy. Make one or two and keep it alive.
It makes for a really good transition if you started off with some Banshee harassment. And you'll need a StarPort anyway to get those Medivacs out.
On May 16 2010 03:57 Salteador Neo wrote:
I haven't tried ghosts, but if they are so good because the zerg army is mostly light, why not use hellions instead? A little flank and the splash damage is ridiculous. And they are way cheaper and faster.
Who says you can't do both? Hellions only cost minerals. And you don't need that many Ghosts to make them worthwhile.
On May 16 2010 06:42 iEchoic wrote:
The only downside to this is that VRs are going to get nerfed so you're going to be wasting your time getting good at a strat that isn't going to last long.
I love how people can make these random predictions about which units will get nerfed and which won't. Unless Blizzard has actually said that a nerf is incoming, don't expect to see one.
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Base placement vs void ray is easy. Don't build near edges so marines can go to the edge, and the void ray is within firing range of marines. You don't need stim, you'll hold off 1-2 void rays and force them to fall back. You didn't kill them, but they didn't kill you.
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The problem with void rays is that your marines are sitting at your choke to defend against a ground force, but the void rays can just come behind your base and get charged from your refinery before your marines are able to run back. Once they are charged, your marines are seriously and completely fucked. They can dance their VR for up to 3 seconds while staying fully charged. It's just really sick.
Option two, stick stalkers right ouside of your bunker range. Then use VR's to target the bunker. Charge up to max, since the marines can't hit your VRs without being picked off by your stalkers.
It seems that the only option that Terran has is to turtle up in his main while being harassed by VRs while the toss expands. If you turtle incorrectly, you just straight up die.
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Current MMM builds definetely allow for some extra gas to be put towards ravens.
The only thing you need gas for in MMM is medivacs and upgrades....neither of which require all the gas that 3 bases can produce. Ravens against Hydras and Mutalisks are just invaluable for PDD.
Points to the qxc vs machine game on Kulas ravine. qxc had 15 ravens. FIFTEEN. Yea thats ridiculous like that game was, but it enabled him to completely shut down machine's armies.
Even just having 2-3 and using 6 PDD allows you to just turn back massive hydra armies. HSM also allows you to force your opponent to micro more, or retreat, or take a fair amount of damage.
So yes ravens are awesome and should be built more with MMM bio balls. When you go mech they aren't so great (still the same usage, but you need the gas for tanks/thors/vikings).
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I have thought about the raven, even a friend told me to start make them more, but when you think about it, they cost alot of gas, and the pdd isn't immediatly ready, making a few ravens shrinks your army alot. I have been having problems trying to fit a few ravens in.
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Regarding the OP...
Ravens are awesome, the first time you put down PDD's and laugh as your army takes no damage you'll be converted for life. True that they aren't used enough, but ravens are gas-heavy.
Ghosts are at best 'okay' against zerg. Certainly not much of a gamechanger given that for the same price you could have a siege tank out. I've had success with them fending off mutalisks. That's about it.
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Ghost vs zerg is meh at best they are ok but cost a shit tone and would rather go tanks or just more bio and upgrades or somthing. Only go ghost when its vs infestors others wise waste of min
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On May 19 2010 04:48 link0 wrote:
The problem with void rays is that your marines are sitting at your choke to defend against a ground force, but the void rays can just come behind your base and get charged from your refinery before your marines are able to run back. Once they are charged, your marines are seriously and completely fucked. They can dance their VR for up to 3 seconds while staying fully charged. It's just really sick.
pretty sure this is why you build depots at the edges of your base and watch the minimap. plus, you should be scanning their base for stargates long before there are actually void rays at your door, at which point you pull your marines back to the center of your base (or, you know... just build turrets)
just because you can't position your units properly doesn't mean it's not possible
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On May 19 2010 05:56 baytripper wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 04:48 link0 wrote:
The problem with void rays is that your marines are sitting at your choke to defend against a ground force, but the void rays can just come behind your base and get charged from your refinery before your marines are able to run back. Once they are charged, your marines are seriously and completely fucked. They can dance their VR for up to 3 seconds while staying fully charged. It's just really sick. pretty sure this is why you build depots at the edges of your base and watch the minimap. plus, you should be scanning their base for stargates long before there are actually void rays at your door, at which point you pull your marines back to the center of your base (or, you know... just build turrets) just because you can't position your units properly doesn't mean it's not possible
So apparently, to prevent VR from charging up, you suggest building supply depots on the edges of your base? Am I mis-reading something or are you being sarcastic? You want to give VRs even more easy targets to pre-charge from?
Last time I checked, no halfway decent protoss player will build stargets inside their base. 270 minerals gone, likely for nothing. Great.
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When I see void rays I tend to overreact. But I don't think it's a great idea against Terran. They are killed very easily by marines and they're too slow to micro. But I can see value in timing a mineral line harrass with a regular push. When I play toss I have a problem affording this but my Protoss macro game is not great in the first place.
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void rays arent expensive? arent they as much as scouts in BW? or are they more?
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Void rays also have 2x the range of Scouts and 3x the ground dps. Not that this comparison means diddily squat. There is really little reason why a toss player would NOT make 1-3 void rays vs Terran. Not only do they harrass, bunker bust, and counter banshees, they also give you free scouting information without needing observers.
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On May 16 2010 02:24 poor newb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2010 23:55 OHtRUe wrote:
4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control. cost little? you risk losing half your army and losing the game outright if detected, and by the time you can even get burrow detection are pretty much everywhere
agreed.. if i recall correctly its 150/150 for burrow.. another 100/100 for roach burrow.. each of them takes about 2 mins to research.. if not 3 for burrow... so totaling up to 5 mins ( maybe less , doesnt matter.. you need to do it early if you wanna use it in midgame )
if you get detected.. and you actually use more than 3 units.. which frankly would kill 5 probes at best.. and wouldnt be worth neither unit or upgrade cost.. you can instantly loose the game if detected.. shit you can sneak into someone base with 10-15 roaches.. kill half the base.. loose roaches.. and still loose the game..
i dont see how you imagine burrowed banelings harassing workers.. place them there before expansions? lmao..
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3. Toss not opening up with void rays every game. Seriously they threaten so much and give you enough time to try some FE play and pretty much give toss control of the game.
.
Yes, threaten, time no, you're assuming theyre succesful, if not its just a simple matter of your opponent 1a-ing you right there, more time has been lost than gained tbh. Also by this point its possibly still fast but not really a very FE, more of just an E. Again their control is dependant solely on their success at cheese basewiping your opponent.
They also dont cost that much and you can easily tech switch out of them
.
no, very expensive
you can easily tech switch out of them
.
not true
Cant speak for the rest of the post, apart from number 5, which you seem to have just lifted from jinro's play in the fantastic mr plott's show.
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on #4, This would be more viable if it wasn't a huge cost to get burrow/move for roaches. I like burrowing roaches and moving them to the mineral line, but either they will have detection or I'll get killed by air, since my anti air is delayed (or you can get ant air first, then burrow, but by then there will certainly be detection.
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I usually burrow my Roaches and sneak them into opponent's base and rape his workers if he doesn't wall-in. Since the new patch I haven't tried it yet but with roaches costing 2 supply it doesn't look very promising.
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1. You see 3 if rushes are spotted. It's there if Z needs it.
2. Humm... k
3. Hu?!
4. Yeah.... 100/100 Lair only, hard to justify it unless the match calls for it
5. Why? Ghost requires micro, mass Maruaders doesn't. Enough stimmed Maruaders with Medivacs counters everything aside from Broodlords. Timing push using this ball of imbal and T wins before Broodlords come into play.
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Protoss players arnt using warpgates to their fullest, maybe its a APM cap but i wouldn't think so. Warp in a unit, transform into gateway build a unit and switch back. It will produce faster depending on what units you build and i hope we do see more of the higher APM players trying this
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4.) we don't get burrow much, because it's lair tech, and takes forever to research, which when coupled with overlord speed or drop delays hive tech. Burrowed roaches just aren't very useful, because with the nerf to them most people go 3/4 hydra, 1/4 roach. then you have to research the ability for them to move while burrowed to have any useful stealth, other than expo watching. If it was hatch tech, or had a gas price nerf (100/50) it would be seen more often.
blizz plz make burrow hatch tech!
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On May 19 2010 10:36 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Protoss players arnt using warpgates to their fullest, maybe its a APM cap but i wouldn't think so. Warp in a unit, transform into gateway build a unit and switch back. It will produce faster depending on what units you build and i hope we do see more of the higher APM players trying this
I don't think this can be correct.
You're saying, if I warp in a zealot, swap, build a zealot, and swap back and make a 3rd zealot it's faster?
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On May 19 2010 13:01 KidA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 10:36 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Protoss players arnt using warpgates to their fullest, maybe its a APM cap but i wouldn't think so. Warp in a unit, transform into gateway build a unit and switch back. It will produce faster depending on what units you build and i hope we do see more of the higher APM players trying this I don't think this can be correct. You're saying, if I warp in a zealot, swap, build a zealot, and swap back and make a 3rd zealot it's faster?
It's an APM sink which relies on you getting the timing exactly right. Which will be to your disadvantage if you get dropped or attacked and have to manage it for 3-4 seconds in the middle of your switching cycle.
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On May 19 2010 10:36 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Protoss players arnt using warpgates to their fullest, maybe its a APM cap but i wouldn't think so. Warp in a unit, transform into gateway build a unit and switch back. It will produce faster depending on what units you build and i hope we do see more of the higher APM players trying this
And costs 50 min 50 gas for the pleasure, doesn't it? Not exactly cost effective. Surely a few extra gateways/warpgates would be a better use of money and have the desired results (i.e. quantity of units)
I'd go as far as to say "If you have the spare APM to do something like this, you probably could be using that APM more effectively else where"
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lol void rays every game..
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zerg not going 3 queen? wtf does that mean? getting 3 queens whenever you can? queens are good but imo the general rule is 1 queen per hatch. queens are awesome when it comes to deffending reaper harass and what not but you dont need lots of them, 7 larava is enough... and creep can be spread by OL so you dont need 1 queen as a designated creep spreader.
not a terran and ravens get raped by my hydras so w/e i cant say anything about them.
toss opening up void rays every game is lol. thats like a terran in bw going 2 port wraith every game, it works sometimes and will do lots of damage if controled well but w/e i got 2 queens you aint gonna do nothing but be behind in macro and gl going for a fe cause im gonna break your ramp by the time you get a voidray if i went 1base play let alone if your trying to expand.
yes. zerg players need to get burrow like always.
never seen ghosts vs zerg so i guess ill just end it there.
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On May 19 2010 07:37 Smikis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2010 02:24 poor newb wrote:On May 15 2010 23:55 OHtRUe wrote:
4. Lack of burrow play from zerg. It cost so little and again threatens so much. Roaches and banelings burrowed on the mineral line can pretty much win you the game. Forces wasted money in the form of detection and gives you more map control. cost little? you risk losing half your army and losing the game outright if detected, and by the time you can even get burrow detection are pretty much everywhere agreed.. if i recall correctly its 150/150 for burrow.. another 100/100 for roach burrow.. each of them takes about 2 mins to research.. if not 3 for burrow... so totaling up to 5 mins ( maybe less , doesnt matter.. you need to do it early if you wanna use it in midgame ) if you get detected.. and you actually use more than 3 units.. which frankly would kill 5 probes at best.. and wouldnt be worth neither unit or upgrade cost.. you can instantly loose the game if detected.. shit you can sneak into someone base with 10-15 roaches.. kill half the base.. loose roaches.. and still loose the game.. i dont see how you imagine burrowed banelings harassing workers.. place them there before expansions? lmao..
You have them switched. Its 100/100 for Burrow, and 150/150 for Tunneling Claws
for burrowed baneling thing, if you attack and sneak some burrowed banelings in, you could wait till they rebuild provided they don't notice them, but its pretty hard to forget about some glowing green blobs burrowing into your base
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Void Rays actually cost a lot, and if countered, the toss is incredibly behind. Just a few missile turrets counter the threat of the Void Rays, and emp + marines take them down really fast
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On May 16 2010 00:49 Amber[LighT] wrote:
ghosts do garbage damage.
I've seen a lot of people saying this, and I'm not sure why...
First, watch this: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6849611
You'll notice one of the biggest advantages ghosts bring is emp vs infestors. Infestors nicely shut down thor and marauder kite, plus add extra damage via fungal growth.
Next, you'll see that snipe 1 shots banelings, nicely shutting that down as part of your bio ball.
Finally, let's do some math: 25 energy per shot, 200 energy = 8 shots, 45 damage (no armor), 45*8=360 damage.
That's 4.5 hydras per ghost or 3 muta.
So if you're at full energy Ghosts counter Hydra/Muta for gas cost. Thus getting early ghosts is usually a good idea. The biggest problem here is roaches. Thankfully with the recent roach nerf we're seeing a lot more Hydra and Muta in the zerg army. So mixing in a couple ghosts with your Bioball is actually a smart strategy.
One last note, ghosts have 100hp, which is ~twice as much as a marine. It also does twice the dps vs Light units.
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On May 20 2010 01:01 Kronologic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 10:36 SC2Phoenix wrote:
Protoss players arnt using warpgates to their fullest, maybe its a APM cap but i wouldn't think so. Warp in a unit, transform into gateway build a unit and switch back. It will produce faster depending on what units you build and i hope we do see more of the higher APM players trying this And costs 50 min 50 gas for the pleasure, doesn't it? Not exactly cost effective. Surely a few extra gateways/warpgates would be a better use of money and have the desired results (i.e. quantity of units) I'd go as far as to say "If you have the spare APM to do something like this, you probably could be using that APM more effectively else where"
It costs 50 minerals and 50 gas for the research for warpgate; once the research is done you can switch between gateways and warpgates for free.
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On May 20 2010 01:58 tzenes wrote:I've seen a lot of people saying this, and I'm not sure why... First, watch this: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/6849611You'll notice one of the biggest advantages ghosts bring is emp vs infestors. Infestors nicely shut down thor and marauder kite, plus add extra damage via fungal growth. Next, you'll see that snipe 1 shots banelings, nicely shutting that down as part of your bio ball. Finally, let's do some math: 25 energy per shot, 200 energy = 8 shots, 45 damage (no armor), 45*8=360 damage. That's 4.5 hydras per ghost or 3 muta. So if you're at full energy Ghosts counter Hydra/Muta for gas cost. Thus getting early ghosts is usually a good idea. The biggest problem here is roaches. Thankfully with the recent roach nerf we're seeing a lot more Hydra and Muta in the zerg army. So mixing in a couple ghosts with your Bioball is actually a smart strategy. One last note, ghosts have 100hp, which is ~twice as much as a marine. It also does twice the dps vs Light units.
you are aware that by time you have 200 mana on even one ghost I will have more than 4.5 hydras right? Like.. a lot more...
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EPT
