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On May 12 2010 14:19 fathead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 05:31 baconbits wrote:
lings + roaches will beat pure roach provided you don't waste your lings in a choke
also roach + hydra will beat pure roach and infestor roach hydra is even better.
Fungal roaches, itll bottle them up, letting your hydra get free shots I agree that hydra roach > roach and ling roach can be better then roach if you are able to engage in a terrain that plays to your favor and position your units well, I don't like it though because it requires to many things to go right. However I find FG less then worthless vs mass roach or even Roach/Hydra. Especially if they have borrow. 34 dam vs a roach that can regenerate that in a few seconds isn't remotely usefully and you can't really split a roach ball with FG. I'd much rather spend the gas on units. I've tried FG vs roaches many times and even in games where I have a solid food count advantage I lose quite handily.
FG isn't about the damage as much as the immobilize. And you can't burrow while fungal growthed. If casted ontop of burrowed roaches, it will force them to unburrow.
Roaches usually beat up hydras handily in equal cost.
However, FG roaches with hydra, and you have this situation:
Roach: range 3 and unable to move
Hydra: range 6
Also, roach/hydra works better than ling/hydra because they benefit from same attack upgrade. Its much less efficient to have to upgrade both ranged and melee. +1 roaches also 2 shot lings.
Burrowed banelings also wreck hydras a new one if they don't have detection. 100/50 (2 banes) can wreck a small blob of hydra if placed well.
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Next time i run into this I'll post a replay but I have been running into a lot of toss and doing some 2v2 with a RL friend lately. Thanks for all the advice and discussion.
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On May 12 2010 23:21 uberdeluxe wrote:I'm a gold player, and I think going muta/ling is definitely an option. I've had many raging successes with it, i would post reps but im away from my main comp 
unless you have a crapton of crawlers (5-6 or more) mass roaches can just time their attack while spire is building and wreck you before you get more than 3-5 muta. Only works vs nonagressive zergs
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On May 12 2010 17:02 beetlelisk wrote:
Wait... I haven't actually read the OP >_< you mean just pure Roaches without any follow up?
You definitely should post any replays of your games... all I can say is +1 for lings really matters if you choose to use them and you didn't say if you tried it or not.
In the games I am thinking of I did not get +1 for my lings and as soon as he saw the mutas he threw up spore crawlers in his drones at his main/nat and mixed in some hydras into his army to combat them. I was generally able to kill the hydras but the roaches could just tank the damage from my mutas while they shredded my critical buildings.
Another thing Is that in those matches my opponent is using less larva for roaches then I am for speedlings so he can pump drones more effectively. In the example I used with 30 roaches vs 80 speedlings and 10 mutas, I am using 50 larva vs his 30. I am not really stuck on using one particular BO. If roaches win then i'll take roaches to the house and honestly I have swapped to playing roach heavy builds in 2s and 1v1 and I haven't lost yet so... I'll take it (5-0 in 2s and 3-0 in 1v1). If do go speedlings in the future though i'll make sure to upgrade them since that sounds like its pretty important for those little guys but for now things are good. I just liked mutas because they offer great map control and they can scout the enemy pretty completely with the greatest of ease but I'll just drop down a couple of overseers if I am ever in the dark about what they have.
In a 2v2 game last night we were playing PZ (me as z) vs ZT and after the initial skirmish i saw that the zerg had a couple of mutas and the second i saw those my partner and I hit has base and it was pretty much gg right there. All I did was mass roaches and get an upgrade or 2. I do agree that I need to upgrade more though.. I generally never make it past +1... I am too greedy with my gas
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On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote:
@beetlelisk, so here is the problem... if I have 3000 minerals to spend on an army and 1000 gas I can get: 10 mutas and 80 speedlings or 30 roaches with 750 minerals to spend on static D (which is what, like 10 spore colonies if you dont include the cost of the drone being that you'll have drones anyways). Those 30 roaches will lol over the lings in a nice big ball/line and then it takes the mutas so long to kill them that they disrupt my econ so much to the point where I can't keep up with his attacks and as soon as he starts mixing in hydras its gg. As long as he has roaches in the mix i cant just bling the hydras down because the roaches will soak them up. i don't think mutas are a viable answer at all unless you can end the game with them but the chances of them scouting that poorly are pretty bad even in the gold league. You can tell when someone is teching because suddenly your army is 30% bigger than theirs, gee, i must be doing well! No... they have mutas in ur dones.
Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly.
Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg?
No you don't. That's retarded. There's no way that's equivalent in larvae costs at all, which is obviously a huge limiting factor in ZvZ. There's also no way you should be able to afford so much if you're going speedlings, they are generally a low econ build and Roach vs Speedling = roaches camping for a while trying to hold off the intial harass.
I also have no idea why people are saying hydra > roaches. Roaches tear hydras apart as long as they have the speed upgrade (hydras can't kite, they are too slow). 1 roach > 1 hydra, and the cost difference is also 25/25 and 1 extra supply. If your opponent has roaches, why in the world would you get hydras unless you already have roaches yourself?
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There's a window before they can get a critical number of roaches to stave off speedlings. During that window roaches will get owned. Speedlings will keep them from expanding as well. Once that player gets a certain number of roaches and/or a +1 upgrade the speedlings become completely worthless and they have to either match them with roaches or try to win with mutas. I usually open with speedlings, make a baneling nest if they're also massing lings, expand if pressure is properly applied, and put down a roach warren a little before I think that initial window is closing if my opponent focused on roaches early. This "roach fest" BS is just wrong. Roaches are a staple unit in all matchups because of the value/cost so you are going to end up with them a lot if you're playing well. If you find yourself getting owned by roaches when you go speedlings or mutas, the timing of your attacks are the problem as well as possibly micro. You have to be able to get surrounds on the roaches. Once you can't do that speedlings are no longer viable. It's as simple as that. And you have to be careful about your transition to mutas. Roaches will often rape your base while taking damage if you make a hard switch and it won't matter that he can't touch you.
ZvZ is a fun aggressive matchup with lots of different ways to play it.
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On May 12 2010 05:37 Prisom wrote:So air is pretty much a no go then...? I love mutas because of their mobility and the map control they provide but i love winning more so... I guess I'll stick to the ground 
once you have map control... guess what.. you should macro a huge roach army while constantly harassing him
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On May 13 2010 02:31 Highwayman wrote:
There's a window before they can get a critical number of roaches to stave off speedlings. During that window roaches will get owned. Speedlings will keep them from expanding as well. Once that player gets a certain number of roaches and/or a +1 upgrade the speedlings become completely worthless and they have to either match them with roaches or try to win with mutas. I usually open with speedlings, make a baneling nest if they're also massing lings, expand if pressure is properly applied, and put down a roach warren a little before I think that initial window is closing if my opponent focused on roaches early. This "roach fest" BS is just wrong. Roaches are a staple unit in all matchups because of the value/cost so you are going to end up with them a lot if you're playing well. If you find yourself getting owned by roaches when you go speedlings or mutas, the timing of your attacks are the problem as well as possibly micro. You have to be able to get surrounds on the roaches. Once you can't do that speedlings are no longer viable. It's as simple as that. And you have to be careful about your transition to mutas. Roaches will often rape your base while taking damage if you make a hard switch and it won't matter that he can't touch you.
ZvZ is a fun aggressive matchup with lots of different ways to play it.
I expand fine in ZvZ vs speedling openings. They are actually quite easy to stave off, especially on Desert Oasis where the time to get to the opponents base is long so initial lings before speed aren't a threat and you can safely transition to roaches after droning.
It's obviously easiest on maps like LT and Metaopolis.
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On May 13 2010 02:48 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 02:31 Highwayman wrote:
There's a window before they can get a critical number of roaches to stave off speedlings. During that window roaches will get owned. Speedlings will keep them from expanding as well. Once that player gets a certain number of roaches and/or a +1 upgrade the speedlings become completely worthless and they have to either match them with roaches or try to win with mutas. I usually open with speedlings, make a baneling nest if they're also massing lings, expand if pressure is properly applied, and put down a roach warren a little before I think that initial window is closing if my opponent focused on roaches early. This "roach fest" BS is just wrong. Roaches are a staple unit in all matchups because of the value/cost so you are going to end up with them a lot if you're playing well. If you find yourself getting owned by roaches when you go speedlings or mutas, the timing of your attacks are the problem as well as possibly micro. You have to be able to get surrounds on the roaches. Once you can't do that speedlings are no longer viable. It's as simple as that. And you have to be careful about your transition to mutas. Roaches will often rape your base while taking damage if you make a hard switch and it won't matter that he can't touch you.
ZvZ is a fun aggressive matchup with lots of different ways to play it. I expand fine in ZvZ vs speedling openings. They are actually quite easy to stave off, especially on Desert Oasis where the time to get to the opponents base is long so initial lings before speed aren't a threat and you can safely transition to roaches after droning. It's obviously easiest on maps like LT and Metaopolis.
I'm pretty sure you're underrating skill differences. I'm sure you do find it easy. I'm not even going to contest that. I don't even know what "expand fine" means. We're talking about numbers of roaches vs speedlings. If the pure roach player gets a certain number relative to the speedling number surrounds won't be possible. The fact that you mention Desert Oasis as especially easy to defend makes me believe you FE pretty early and your opponents aren't scouting/attacking very well. Desert Oasis is one of the better maps to attack a FE with speedlings because of the walk distance between the main and the nat and you won't have connecting creep at that point. The fact that you bring that up to defend your case tells me there's something seriously wrong with your reasoning and you should show replays for proof.
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I beat roaches with speedling roach all the time. Key is to keep multiple groups of around 10-12 speedlings hotkeyed hiding behind tall grass and always control watch towers. The second he steps out of his base he wreck his mineral lines and snipe his queen. Or if he has his choke blocked off with roaches, use those lings as flanks when you fight in the open field.
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On May 13 2010 03:09 Highwayman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 02:48 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 13 2010 02:31 Highwayman wrote:
There's a window before they can get a critical number of roaches to stave off speedlings. During that window roaches will get owned. Speedlings will keep them from expanding as well. Once that player gets a certain number of roaches and/or a +1 upgrade the speedlings become completely worthless and they have to either match them with roaches or try to win with mutas. I usually open with speedlings, make a baneling nest if they're also massing lings, expand if pressure is properly applied, and put down a roach warren a little before I think that initial window is closing if my opponent focused on roaches early. This "roach fest" BS is just wrong. Roaches are a staple unit in all matchups because of the value/cost so you are going to end up with them a lot if you're playing well. If you find yourself getting owned by roaches when you go speedlings or mutas, the timing of your attacks are the problem as well as possibly micro. You have to be able to get surrounds on the roaches. Once you can't do that speedlings are no longer viable. It's as simple as that. And you have to be careful about your transition to mutas. Roaches will often rape your base while taking damage if you make a hard switch and it won't matter that he can't touch you.
ZvZ is a fun aggressive matchup with lots of different ways to play it. I expand fine in ZvZ vs speedling openings. They are actually quite easy to stave off, especially on Desert Oasis where the time to get to the opponents base is long so initial lings before speed aren't a threat and you can safely transition to roaches after droning. It's obviously easiest on maps like LT and Metaopolis. I'm pretty sure you're underrating skill differences. I'm sure you do find it easy. I'm not even going to contest that. I don't even know what "expand fine" means. We're talking about numbers of roaches vs speedlings. If the pure roach player gets a certain number relative to the speedling number surrounds won't be possible. The fact that you mention Desert Oasis as especially easy to defend makes me believe you FE pretty early and your opponents aren't scouting/attacking very well. Desert Oasis is one of the better maps to attack a FE with speedlings because of the walk distance between the main and the nat and you won't have connecting creep at that point. The fact that you bring that up to defend your case tells me there's something seriously wrong with your reasoning and you should show replays for proof.
I'm at work, but I play people around ~1700 plat, and I'm rank 2 in my division. I was at around ~1900 plat before the reset, and I never actually peaked. ZvZ is my best matchup, by far.
Players are very aggressive in the early stages. However, I go 15 hatch on Desert Oasis, which lets me establish my hatch and second queen early. I then proceed to use sim city to defend the main base on Desert Oasis, which you need only around 2 roaches and the Queen vs ~10-12 speedlings, because of base layout and drone usage (attack then don't attack then attack again, etc.)
EDIT: What's that webpage that lets you chekc your rank? Everyone's rank, division, etc? That was cool. My username is FabIntegral
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You counter Roaches with Roaches of your own, sadly. The Z v Z really is a mirror, and the one who can control the other best wins the game. Expos and upgrades wins the day.
I'm almost considering going Protoss just because how dull it is.
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On May 13 2010 04:02 Atnas wrote:
You counter Roaches with Roaches of your own, sadly. The Z v Z really is a mirror, and the one who can control the other best wins the game. Expos and upgrades wins the day.
I'm almost considering going Protoss just because how dull it is.
ZvZ is actually my favorite matchup considering I feel like there's tons of strats ppl go. Mass speedling (could be all-in not necessarily), incorporate banelings sometimes, roach, ling/roach, some ppl still go relatively fast mutas (which I think is really easy to counter when you go roaches), and it then evolves to using hydras, multiple evo chambers upgrading (leaving room for timing attacks), infestors, mutas, etc.
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On May 12 2010 17:32 SNooBY wrote:
i dont belive you can force him up his ramp when he got blocked with roaches, and you only have lingz/banelingz.. sounds unrealistic
It's not designed to break through choke or ramp blocked by Roaches but to contain them so you can expand while Roach user can't.
On May 13 2010 01:41 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote:
@beetlelisk, so here is the problem... if I have 3000 minerals to spend on an army and 1000 gas I can get: 10 mutas and 80 speedlings or 30 roaches with 750 minerals to spend on static D (which is what, like 10 spore colonies if you dont include the cost of the drone being that you'll have drones anyways). Those 30 roaches will lol over the lings in a nice big ball/line and then it takes the mutas so long to kill them that they disrupt my econ so much to the point where I can't keep up with his attacks and as soon as he starts mixing in hydras its gg. As long as he has roaches in the mix i cant just bling the hydras down because the roaches will soak them up. i don't think mutas are a viable answer at all unless you can end the game with them but the chances of them scouting that poorly are pretty bad even in the gold league. You can tell when someone is teching because suddenly your army is 30% bigger than theirs, gee, i must be doing well! No... they have mutas in ur dones.
Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly.
Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg? No you don't. That's retarded. There's no way that's equivalent in larvae costs at all, which is obviously a huge limiting factor in ZvZ. There's also no way you should be able to afford so much if you're going speedlings, they are generally a low econ build and Roach vs Speedling = roaches camping for a while trying to hold off the intial harass.
Since lings are much cheaper you morph your 2nd hatch relatively fast and because of that you gain Larvae advantage. There is no point in arguing about Larvae at this stage of the game?
I also have no idea why people are saying hydra > roaches. Roaches tear hydras apart as long as they have the speed upgrade (hydras can't kite, they are too slow). 1 roach > 1 hydra, and the cost difference is also 25/25 and 1 extra supply. If your opponent has roaches, why in the world would you get hydras unless you already have roaches yourself?
Well 1st and foremost you always have more units dealing damage to pure Roach army because Hydras have more range?
And because Hydra DPS is higher than that of a Roach, high enough for it to be worth to make them even though they are more expensive?
I guess what you wrote about Larvae being limited resource matters here too.
About upgrades - of course they are important as it's been said here that +1 Roaches 2 shot kill lings. Since Roaches cost gas while Zerglings don't, I think it's not that hard for the Zergling user to make more upgrades than just +1 for Melee, especially because of faster expansion.
My friend mentioned upgrades being important too 
I think that the biggest problem here is trying to play 1 base Muta against 1 base pure Roach.
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On May 13 2010 02:48 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 02:31 Highwayman wrote:
There's a window before they can get a critical number of roaches to stave off speedlings. During that window roaches will get owned. Speedlings will keep them from expanding as well. Once that player gets a certain number of roaches and/or a +1 upgrade the speedlings become completely worthless and they have to either match them with roaches or try to win with mutas. I usually open with speedlings, make a baneling nest if they're also massing lings, expand if pressure is properly applied, and put down a roach warren a little before I think that initial window is closing if my opponent focused on roaches early. This "roach fest" BS is just wrong. Roaches are a staple unit in all matchups because of the value/cost so you are going to end up with them a lot if you're playing well. If you find yourself getting owned by roaches when you go speedlings or mutas, the timing of your attacks are the problem as well as possibly micro. You have to be able to get surrounds on the roaches. Once you can't do that speedlings are no longer viable. It's as simple as that. And you have to be careful about your transition to mutas. Roaches will often rape your base while taking damage if you make a hard switch and it won't matter that he can't touch you.
ZvZ is a fun aggressive matchup with lots of different ways to play it. I expand fine in ZvZ vs speedling openings. They are actually quite easy to stave off, especially on Desert Oasis where the time to get to the opponents base is long so initial lings before speed aren't a threat and you can safely transition to roaches after droning. It's obviously easiest on maps like LT and Metaopolis.
What are your opponents doing exaclty? How do you fare against Zergling+Banelings with this?
Can you post some replays of those games please?
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Well 1st and foremost you always have more units dealing damage to pure Roach army because Hydras have more range?
I've been thinking about this lately. Can't a pure roach force use tunneling claws to get superior positioning on the hydra/roach mix? Either positioning so that you can take out the enemy hydras first or that all of your roaches are in range to fire.
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On May 13 2010 05:35 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2010 17:32 SNooBY wrote:
i dont belive you can force him up his ramp when he got blocked with roaches, and you only have lingz/banelingz.. sounds unrealistic It's not designed to break through choke or ramp blocked by Roaches but to contain them so you can expand while Roach user can't. Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 01:41 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote:
@beetlelisk, so here is the problem... if I have 3000 minerals to spend on an army and 1000 gas I can get: 10 mutas and 80 speedlings or 30 roaches with 750 minerals to spend on static D (which is what, like 10 spore colonies if you dont include the cost of the drone being that you'll have drones anyways). Those 30 roaches will lol over the lings in a nice big ball/line and then it takes the mutas so long to kill them that they disrupt my econ so much to the point where I can't keep up with his attacks and as soon as he starts mixing in hydras its gg. As long as he has roaches in the mix i cant just bling the hydras down because the roaches will soak them up. i don't think mutas are a viable answer at all unless you can end the game with them but the chances of them scouting that poorly are pretty bad even in the gold league. You can tell when someone is teching because suddenly your army is 30% bigger than theirs, gee, i must be doing well! No... they have mutas in ur dones.
Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly.
Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg? No you don't. That's retarded. There's no way that's equivalent in larvae costs at all, which is obviously a huge limiting factor in ZvZ. There's also no way you should be able to afford so much if you're going speedlings, they are generally a low econ build and Roach vs Speedling = roaches camping for a while trying to hold off the intial harass. Since lings are much cheaper you morph your 2nd hatch relatively fast and because of that you gain Larvae advantage. There is no point in arguing about Larvae at this stage of the game? Show nested quote +I also have no idea why people are saying hydra > roaches. Roaches tear hydras apart as long as they have the speed upgrade (hydras can't kite, they are too slow). 1 roach > 1 hydra, and the cost difference is also 25/25 and 1 extra supply. If your opponent has roaches, why in the world would you get hydras unless you already have roaches yourself? Well 1st and foremost you always have more units dealing damage to pure Roach army because Hydras have more range? And because Hydra DPS is higher than that of a Roach, high enough for it to be worth to make them even though they are more expensive? I guess what you wrote about Larvae being limited resource matters here too.
About upgrades - of course they are important as it's been said here that +1 Roaches 2 shot kill lings. Since Roaches cost gas while Zerglings don't, I think it's not that hard for the Zergling user to make more upgrades than just +1 for Melee, especially because of faster expansion. My friend mentioned upgrades being important too I think that the biggest problem here is trying to play 1 base Muta against 1 base pure Roach.
What are you talking about? How in the world are you not counting larvae into consideration "at this point in the game." That makes no sense.
Either way, something like 20 roaches would still beat 20 hydras.
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On May 13 2010 05:43 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +Well 1st and foremost you always have more units dealing damage to pure Roach army because Hydras have more range? I've been thinking about this lately. Can't a pure roach force use tunneling claws to get superior positioning on the hydra/roach mix? Either positioning so that you can take out the enemy hydras first or that all of your roaches are in range to fire.
I think there are Overseers against that anyways, you need at least 1 since any Roach user wants to get Burrow to be able to heal his Roaches.
Roaches moving underground can be seen too... but it will be great to see this used 
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On May 13 2010 05:54 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2010 05:35 beetlelisk wrote:On May 12 2010 17:32 SNooBY wrote:
i dont belive you can force him up his ramp when he got blocked with roaches, and you only have lingz/banelingz.. sounds unrealistic It's not designed to break through choke or ramp blocked by Roaches but to contain them so you can expand while Roach user can't. On May 13 2010 01:41 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote:
@beetlelisk, so here is the problem... if I have 3000 minerals to spend on an army and 1000 gas I can get: 10 mutas and 80 speedlings or 30 roaches with 750 minerals to spend on static D (which is what, like 10 spore colonies if you dont include the cost of the drone being that you'll have drones anyways). Those 30 roaches will lol over the lings in a nice big ball/line and then it takes the mutas so long to kill them that they disrupt my econ so much to the point where I can't keep up with his attacks and as soon as he starts mixing in hydras its gg. As long as he has roaches in the mix i cant just bling the hydras down because the roaches will soak them up. i don't think mutas are a viable answer at all unless you can end the game with them but the chances of them scouting that poorly are pretty bad even in the gold league. You can tell when someone is teching because suddenly your army is 30% bigger than theirs, gee, i must be doing well! No... they have mutas in ur dones.
Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly.
Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg? No you don't. That's retarded. There's no way that's equivalent in larvae costs at all, which is obviously a huge limiting factor in ZvZ. There's also no way you should be able to afford so much if you're going speedlings, they are generally a low econ build and Roach vs Speedling = roaches camping for a while trying to hold off the intial harass. Since lings are much cheaper you morph your 2nd hatch relatively fast and because of that you gain Larvae advantage. There is no point in arguing about Larvae at this stage of the game? I also have no idea why people are saying hydra > roaches. Roaches tear hydras apart as long as they have the speed upgrade (hydras can't kite, they are too slow). 1 roach > 1 hydra, and the cost difference is also 25/25 and 1 extra supply. If your opponent has roaches, why in the world would you get hydras unless you already have roaches yourself? Well 1st and foremost you always have more units dealing damage to pure Roach army because Hydras have more range? And because Hydra DPS is higher than that of a Roach, high enough for it to be worth to make them even though they are more expensive? I guess what you wrote about Larvae being limited resource matters here too.
About upgrades - of course they are important as it's been said here that +1 Roaches 2 shot kill lings. Since Roaches cost gas while Zerglings don't, I think it's not that hard for the Zergling user to make more upgrades than just +1 for Melee, especially because of faster expansion. My friend mentioned upgrades being important too I think that the biggest problem here is trying to play 1 base Muta against 1 base pure Roach. What are you talking about? How in the world are you not counting larvae into consideration "at this point in the game." That makes no sense. Either way, something like 20 roaches would still beat 20 hydras.
You get faster Hatch because you have more minerals? What is so hard about this?
Zerglings are made before the other guy's Roach Warren is completed, you have initial force that should always beat initial Roaches with proper micro.
And I'm not talking about pure ling but lings + (4-6) banelings against Roach, I don't know if you read any of my posts in this thread.
You can disapprove about anything once you pull it out of context.
edit: and comparing Roaches and Hydras in this way is pulling out of context too. You don't make pure Hydras against pure Roaches, you have some Roaches yourself.
Wait you wrote about it and I misread it.
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an infestor or two and its all over for roaches in a pure roach vs pure hydra match, even if they have burrow-- since its so graphically obvious when burrowed units are moving. (FG unburrows them)
Also 20 roach vs 20 hydra, is more then critical mass for the hydra and when hydra start winning. Lesser numbers though, the roaches will win... at 20? hydras will be 1 shotting roaches before they get in range and by the time they engage, it will already be 20 hydra vs 16-18 roaches depending if they are smart enough to shift attack queue and focus fire.
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EPT
