EPTI'm a mid ranked plat player (~35th in my div) and ZvZ I cant beat a roach spam... The last 2 times that I have lost to a roach spam I tried going speedlings/heavy muta and it didn't even matter. He just pushed through my speedlings and tanked my mutas long enough that he was still able to get down my extractors and once i lost those i couldn't keep up. It just takes mutas soooo long to drop a roach its pathetic. It seems like the only way to really counter a roach army is to have a bigger roach army...? I'll search for a replay when i get home later tonight. Thanks for any advice!
[Q] ZvZ How to Counter the roach spam
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Prisom
United States83 Posts
I'm a mid ranked plat player (~35th in my div) and ZvZ I cant beat a roach spam... The last 2 times that I have lost to a roach spam I tried going speedlings/heavy muta and it didn't even matter. He just pushed through my speedlings and tanked my mutas long enough that he was still able to get down my extractors and once i lost those i couldn't keep up. It just takes mutas soooo long to drop a roach its pathetic. It seems like the only way to really counter a roach army is to have a bigger roach army...? I'll search for a replay when i get home later tonight. Thanks for any advice! | ||
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theBullFrog
United States515 Posts
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
also roach + hydra will beat pure roach and infestor roach hydra is even better. Fungal roaches, itll bottle them up, letting your hydra get free shots | ||
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HeyheyLBJ
Sweden160 Posts
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Prisom
United States83 Posts
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
He makes gas simultaneously or even tad before Pool 1st 100 gas goes for ling Speed next 50 for Banelings Nest + some gas into Banelings if you feel you will use them soon once he sees Roaches or even suspects them he makes Evo Chamber and +1 Melee with the next 100 gas but researching this before Lair is not set in stone. With Pool started at 14 food he makes Ovie at 15 and Queen ASAP. He pumps nothing but lings and moves out with them around 32-36 food iirc. Even if there are no lings to make your 4-6 Banes really useful they can still weaken Roaches quite good given you try to get them near as many Roaches as you can so bane splash hits more Roaches. He said he doesn't make any Banes later. When he sees the other Zerg blocks his ramp with Roaches he keeps sending more lings but also start adding Drones; he couldn't tell me his Zergling : Drone ratio. He spreads them so once Roaches try to go out he can surround them well; it's bit troublesome but definitely doable. Then he either expands or makes Lair whatever he feels should be morphed 1st. After Lair is done he goes into Muta and A-moves them into Hydras when he feels comfortable with doing this. He said they are really strong against Hydras in bigger number. He didn't spot any Infestors so far but I guess they are big threat. edited for more clarity edit2 oh and he keeps his 1st ovie near the other zerg's natural, far enough to be safe about hostile Queen killing it but close enough to be able to tell when he's opponent moves out. | ||
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sCuMBaG
United Kingdom1144 Posts
bane is playable. but muta attack-move? no infestors? srsly no way | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
by A-moving I mean he doesn't dance with them like in BW because aparantly you can't do this so far and I repeat :he does this when he feels comfortable about doing this It doesn't mean he doesn't harass with them. I forgot to say that Roach user can push out succesfully and expand to his nat - once my friend gets Mutas he tries to make the other Zerg split his Hydras by switching what he attacks (main natural main natural) and he attacks once Hydras are split between main and nat. edit: actually I need to check our conversation to see what he said about Muta vs Hydra | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
He tries to harass with Mutas constantly and attacks once there is a lot of them or Hydras are split between main and nat. Once Hydras are dead it's should be quite easy? to take care of Roaches. edit: also when he sees an Evo he makes more upgrades himself to catch up edit2: I don't know when he moves back / the other guy pushes with more Roaches and expands. He made it sound that the other Zerg is usually able to expand at some point in time, I need to ask him about this. Well, he didn't play even 100 games so far but this strat is universal and gives him wins most of the time regardless of what his z opponents do. edit3: (he fastens his pool if he sees 10pool of course but that's slightly different case) I think I can quote IdrA to back up my words: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=120612¤tpage=6#102 On April 21 2010 22:05 IdrA wrote: arbiters are pretty much the highest tech sc1 p had, same level as carriers. and again, not true. roach-> roach/hydra isnt even the best opening vs t, much less mandatory. roach/hydra isnt the best army composition vs most protoss armies, and the roach:hydra ratio still varies alot according to their ratio when it is. if you just spam roach hydra and attack move you arent gonna win much vs good people. muta/ling is nearly as good as hydra/roach in macro zvz's now, and theres all kinds of gay shit thats viable early game. | ||
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Prisom
United States83 Posts
Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly. Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg? | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
I think it would be great if you could show us replays of your games. I think you can upload them to this site or some speedshare. My friend said similar thing - lings can't get to Hydras through Roaches so you need to eliminate Hydras in some other way. I'm not saying this strat I wrote about is perfect because I couldn't set in motion myself yet + Show Spoiler + real life, mainly my job gets in the way and I got an offer to translate something thanks to TL Manpower ^_^ I think that calculating what can I get for X resources isn't the best way to solve this - this strat allows you to contain and expand so even though you don't completely switch to making Drones your eco should still be better. I don't know about tech, if he really masses Roaches than his tech may be delayed or he can have less gas for Hydras. + Show Spoiler + Infestor tech itself + 1 Infestor is 5 Hydras right there too and those things don't hatch with 75 energy for Fungal Growth without an upgrade. | ||
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ryanAnger
United States838 Posts
Or, Roach/Hydra/Infestor Roaches will straight up kill Hydras, but if you can take advantage of the Hydras range against the Roaches, you can make awesome use of the Hydras good DPS. Fungal growth some Roaches, and create your own choke point. Have your own Roaches up front to tank, while the Hydras sit in the back and fire away. | ||
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Alegzandur
Philippines52 Posts
On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote: @beetlelisk, so here is the problem... if I have 3000 minerals to spend on an army and 1000 gas I can get: 10 mutas and 80 speedlings or 30 roaches with 750 minerals to spend on static D (which is what, like 10 spore colonies if you dont include the cost of the drone being that you'll have drones anyways). Those 30 roaches will lol over the lings in a nice big ball/line and then it takes the mutas so long to kill them that they disrupt my econ so much to the point where I can't keep up with his attacks and as soon as he starts mixing in hydras its gg. As long as he has roaches in the mix i cant just bling the hydras down because the roaches will soak them up. i don't think mutas are a viable answer at all unless you can end the game with them but the chances of them scouting that poorly are pretty bad even in the gold league. You can tell when someone is teching because suddenly your army is 30% bigger than theirs, gee, i must be doing well! No... they have mutas in ur dones. Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly. Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg? I think you're looking at it the wrong way though, if you have 80 speedlings then you can pretty much rape his base way quicker than he can rape yours the minute he pushes out. Just do a run-by with your lings and keep pounding his roaches with your mutas. After you do significant damage to his economy or take-out a few key structures, run your lings back and try and kill as many roaches as you can. You might suffer damage, but at least you know you crippled him as well and you now have 10 mutas against his roach tech. | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
On May 12 2010 05:31 baconbits wrote: lings + roaches will beat pure roach provided you don't waste your lings in a choke also roach + hydra will beat pure roach and infestor roach hydra is even better. Fungal roaches, itll bottle them up, letting your hydra get free shots I agree that hydra roach > roach and ling roach can be better then roach if you are able to engage in a terrain that plays to your favor and position your units well, I don't like it though because it requires to many things to go right. However I find FG less then worthless vs mass roach or even Roach/Hydra. Especially if they have borrow. 34 dam vs a roach that can regenerate that in a few seconds isn't remotely usefully and you can't really split a roach ball with FG. I'd much rather spend the gas on units. I've tried FG vs roaches many times and even in games where I have a solid food count advantage I lose quite handily. | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
On May 12 2010 08:58 Alegzandur wrote: I think you're looking at it the wrong way though, if you have 80 speedlings then you can pretty much rape his base way quicker than he can rape yours the minute he pushes out. Just do a run-by with your lings and keep pounding his roaches with your mutas. After you do significant damage to his economy or take-out a few key structures, run your lings back and try and kill as many roaches as you can. You might suffer damage, but at least you know you crippled him as well and you now have 10 mutas against his roach tech. 4-5 roaches, 1 spine, and 1 queen set to hold position in the mineral line can easily hold off a very large ling army as a surround is impossible. Roaches are much better and sniping a hat in my experience. | ||
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Jadix
United States134 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
You definitely should post any replays of your games... all I can say is +1 for lings really matters if you choose to use them and you didn't say if you tried it or not. | ||
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ActionJesuz
Denmark32 Posts
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uberdeluxe
Canada306 Posts
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