[Q] ZvZ How to Counter the roach spam

On April 21 2010 22:05 IdrA wrote:

arbiters are pretty much the highest tech sc1 p had, same level as carriers.
and again, not true. roach-> roach/hydra isnt even the best opening vs t, much less mandatory. roach/hydra isnt the best army composition vs most protoss armies, and the roach:hydra ratio still varies alot according to their ratio when it is. if you just spam roach hydra and attack move you arent gonna win much vs good people. muta/ling is nearly as good as hydra/roach in macro zvz's now, and theres all kinds of gay shit thats viable early game.

On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote:
@beetlelisk, so here is the problem... if I have 3000 minerals to spend on an army and 1000 gas I can get: 10 mutas and 80 speedlings or 30 roaches with 750 minerals to spend on static D (which is what, like 10 spore colonies if you dont include the cost of the drone being that you'll have drones anyways). Those 30 roaches will lol over the lings in a nice big ball/line and then it takes the mutas so long to kill them that they disrupt my econ so much to the point where I can't keep up with his attacks and as soon as he starts mixing in hydras its gg. As long as he has roaches in the mix i cant just bling the hydras down because the roaches will soak them up. i don't think mutas are a viable answer at all unless you can end the game with them but the chances of them scouting that poorly are pretty bad even in the gold league. You can tell when someone is teching because suddenly your army is 30% bigger than theirs, gee, i must be doing well! No... they have mutas in ur dones.

Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly.

Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg?

On May 12 2010 05:31 baconbits wrote:
lings + roaches will beat pure roach provided you don't waste your lings in a choke

also roach + hydra will beat pure roach and infestor roach hydra is even better.

Fungal roaches, itll bottle them up, letting your hydra get free shots

On May 12 2010 08:58 Alegzandur wrote:


I think you're looking at it the wrong way though, if you have 80 speedlings then you can pretty much rape his base way quicker than he can rape yours the minute he pushes out. Just do a run-by with your lings and keep pounding his roaches with your mutas. After you do significant damage to his economy or take-out a few key structures, run your lings back and try and kill as many roaches as you can. You might suffer damage, but at least you know you crippled him as well and you now have 10 mutas against his roach tech.

On May 12 2010 14:19 fathead wrote:



I agree that hydra roach > roach and ling roach can be better then roach if you are able to engage in a terrain that plays to your favor and position your units well, I don't like it though because it requires to many things to go right. However I find FG less then worthless vs mass roach or even Roach/Hydra. Especially if they have borrow. 34 dam vs a roach that can regenerate that in a few seconds isn't remotely usefully and you can't really split a roach ball with FG. I'd much rather spend the gas on units.

I've tried FG vs roaches many times and even in games where I have a solid food count advantage I lose quite handily.

On May 12 2010 23:21 uberdeluxe wrote:
I'm a gold player, and I think going muta/ling is definitely an option. I've had many raging successes with it, i would post reps but im away from my main comp

On May 12 2010 17:02 beetlelisk wrote:
Wait... I haven't actually read the OP >_< you mean just pure Roaches without any follow up?
You definitely should post any replays of your games... all I can say is +1 for lings really matters if you choose to use them and you didn't say if you tried it or not.

On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote:
@beetlelisk, so here is the problem... if I have 3000 minerals to spend on an army and 1000 gas I can get: 10 mutas and 80 speedlings or 30 roaches with 750 minerals to spend on static D (which is what, like 10 spore colonies if you dont include the cost of the drone being that you'll have drones anyways). Those 30 roaches will lol over the lings in a nice big ball/line and then it takes the mutas so long to kill them that they disrupt my econ so much to the point where I can't keep up with his attacks and as soon as he starts mixing in hydras its gg. As long as he has roaches in the mix i cant just bling the hydras down because the roaches will soak them up. i don't think mutas are a viable answer at all unless you can end the game with them but the chances of them scouting that poorly are pretty bad even in the gold league. You can tell when someone is teching because suddenly your army is 30% bigger than theirs, gee, i must be doing well! No... they have mutas in ur dones.

Anyways. Thank you for the effort. I think speedlings can counter roaches during a very small timing window early in the game but once you get more than 15/20 roaches they absolutely CRUSH speedlings. To the point where they just explode for going near roaches, never mind chokes, yuck. I guess I'll stick to ground ZvZ and if I lose to a good muta player I'll analyze and adapt accordingly.

Edit: Idk who idra is but I am assuming some kind of leet zerg?

On May 12 2010 05:37 Prisom wrote:
So air is pretty much a no go then...? I love mutas because of their mobility and the map control they provide but i love winning more so... I guess I'll stick to the ground

On May 13 2010 02:31 Highwayman wrote:
There's a window before they can get a critical number of roaches to stave off speedlings. During that window roaches will get owned. Speedlings will keep them from expanding as well. Once that player gets a certain number of roaches and/or a +1 upgrade the speedlings become completely worthless and they have to either match them with roaches or try to win with mutas. I usually open with speedlings, make a baneling nest if they're also massing lings, expand if pressure is properly applied, and put down a roach warren a little before I think that initial window is closing if my opponent focused on roaches early. This "roach fest" BS is just wrong. Roaches are a staple unit in all matchups because of the value/cost so you are going to end up with them a lot if you're playing well. If you find yourself getting owned by roaches when you go speedlings or mutas, the timing of your attacks are the problem as well as possibly micro. You have to be able to get surrounds on the roaches. Once you can't do that speedlings are no longer viable. It's as simple as that. And you have to be careful about your transition to mutas. Roaches will often rape your base while taking damage if you make a hard switch and it won't matter that he can't touch you.

ZvZ is a fun aggressive matchup with lots of different ways to play it.

On May 13 2010 02:48 FabledIntegral wrote:


I expand fine in ZvZ vs speedling openings. They are actually quite easy to stave off, especially on Desert Oasis where the time to get to the opponents base is long so initial lings before speed aren't a threat and you can safely transition to roaches after droning.

It's obviously easiest on maps like LT and Metaopolis.

On May 13 2010 03:09 Highwayman wrote:


I'm pretty sure you're underrating skill differences. I'm sure you do find it easy. I'm not even going to contest that. I don't even know what "expand fine" means. We're talking about numbers of roaches vs speedlings. If the pure roach player gets a certain number relative to the speedling number surrounds won't be possible. The fact that you mention Desert Oasis as especially easy to defend makes me believe you FE pretty early and your opponents aren't scouting/attacking very well. Desert Oasis is one of the better maps to attack a FE with speedlings because of the walk distance between the main and the nat and you won't have connecting creep at that point. The fact that you bring that up to defend your case tells me there's something seriously wrong with your reasoning and you should show replays for proof.

On May 13 2010 04:02 Atnas wrote:
You counter Roaches with Roaches of your own, sadly. The Z v Z really is a mirror, and the one who can control the other best wins the game. Expos and upgrades wins the day.

I'm almost considering going Protoss just because how dull it is.

On May 12 2010 17:32 SNooBY wrote:
i dont belive you can force him up his ramp when he got blocked with roaches, and you only have lingz/banelingz.. sounds unrealistic

On May 13 2010 01:41 FabledIntegral wrote:


No you don't. That's retarded. There's no way that's equivalent in larvae costs at all, which is obviously a huge limiting factor in ZvZ. There's also no way you should be able to afford so much if you're going speedlings, they are generally a low econ build and Roach vs Speedling = roaches camping for a while trying to hold off the intial harass.

I also have no idea why people are saying hydra > roaches. Roaches tear hydras apart as long as they have the speed upgrade (hydras can't kite, they are too slow). 1 roach > 1 hydra, and the cost difference is also 25/25 and 1 extra supply. If your opponent has roaches, why in the world would you get hydras unless you already have roaches yourself?

On May 13 2010 02:48 FabledIntegral wrote:


I expand fine in ZvZ vs speedling openings. They are actually quite easy to stave off, especially on Desert Oasis where the time to get to the opponents base is long so initial lings before speed aren't a threat and you can safely transition to roaches after droning.

It's obviously easiest on maps like LT and Metaopolis.

Well 1st and foremost you always have more units dealing damage to pure Roach army because Hydras have more range?

On May 13 2010 05:35 beetlelisk wrote:

It's not designed to break through choke or ramp blocked by Roaches but to contain them so you can expand while Roach user can't.



Since lings are much cheaper you morph your 2nd hatch relatively fast and because of that you gain Larvae advantage. There is no point in arguing about Larvae at this stage of the game?



Well 1st and foremost you always have more units dealing damage to pure Roach army because Hydras have more range?
And because Hydra DPS is higher than that of a Roach, high enough for it to be worth to make them even though they are more expensive?
I guess what you wrote about Larvae being limited resource matters here too.

---

About upgrades - of course they are important as it's been said here that +1 Roaches 2 shot kill lings. Since Roaches cost gas while Zerglings don't, I think it's not that hard for the Zergling user to make more upgrades than just +1 for Melee, especially because of faster expansion.
My friend mentioned upgrades being important too

I think that the biggest problem here is trying to play 1 base Muta against 1 base pure Roach.

On May 13 2010 05:43 Logo wrote:


I've been thinking about this lately. Can't a pure roach force use tunneling claws to get superior positioning on the hydra/roach mix? Either positioning so that you can take out the enemy hydras first or that all of your roaches are in range to fire.

On May 13 2010 05:54 FabledIntegral wrote:


What are you talking about? How in the world are you not counting larvae into consideration "at this point in the game." That makes no sense.

Either way, something like 20 roaches would still beat 20 hydras.

On May 13 2010 06:08 beetlelisk wrote:

You get faster Hatch because you have more minerals? What is so hard about this?
Zerglings are made before the other guy's Roach Warren is completed, you have initial force that should always beat initial Roaches with proper micro.

And I'm not talking about pure ling but lings + (4-6) banelings against Roach, I don't know if you read any of my posts in this thread.

You can disapprove about anything once you pull it out of context.

edit: and comparing Roaches and Hydras in this way is pulling out of context too. You don't make pure Hydras against pure Roaches, you have some Roaches yourself.
Wait you wrote about it and I misread it.

On May 12 2010 07:45 Prisom wrote:
I also have no idea why people are saying hydra > roaches. Roaches tear hydras apart as long as they have the speed upgrade (hydras can't kite, they are too slow). 1 roach > 1 hydra, and the cost difference is also 25/25 and 1 extra supply. If your opponent has roaches, why in the world would you get hydras unless you already have roaches yourself?

On May 13 2010 06:23 FabledIntegral wrote:


First of all, if you're going speedlings, the roach person expands first because he has more minerals. So there's definitely something "hard" about what you're saying.

If the opponent builds lings, you can obviously build lings to counter and you have a queen (soon to be two) yourself to defend. Not that hard either.

Banelings suck vs roaches, you're really going to lose a drone and 100/50 to be able to tech to banelings and then anotehr 25/25 to have them suck?

Your speedlings won't beat my roaches depending on the map. For example, Steppes of War, you can't expand fast.

I'll apologize on misreading the larvae thing though, it just occured to me 80 speedlings would cost *40* larvae and not 80. :S

You talked about a skill difference though, what's your ranking..?

On May 13 2010 03:09 Highwayman wrote:


I'm pretty sure you're underrating skill differences. I'm sure you do find it easy. I'm not even going to contest that. I don't even know what "expand fine" means. We're talking about numbers of roaches vs speedlings. If the pure roach player gets a certain number relative to the speedling number surrounds won't be possible. The fact that you mention Desert Oasis as especially easy to defend makes me believe you FE pretty early and your opponents aren't scouting/attacking very well. Desert Oasis is one of the better maps to attack a FE with speedlings because of the walk distance between the main and the nat and you won't have connecting creep at that point. The fact that you bring that up to defend your case tells me there's something seriously wrong with your reasoning and you should show replays for proof.

On May 13 2010 07:00 beetlelisk wrote:

I don't recall talking about skill difference. My ranking is lower than I want it to be and I am writing about strat my friend uses with great success so far. It's difficult for him to stay in EU Platinum because he doesn't get how to play ZvT properly yet. This is his experience from ZvZ games at Gold and Platinum level.

I don't know how can you expand succesfully when 14-18 speedlings are coming at you, soon to be followed by banelings that kill defenders lings.
They are not meant to counter Roaches, only to weaken them and make easier to get killed by lings (if there are no lings those banes can take care of)

Please elaborate about "Your speedlings won't beat my roaches depending on the map. For example, Steppes of War, you can't expand fast."

On May 13 2010 07:05 FabledIntegral wrote:
I'll post some reps when I get home from work. Know that my opening ZvZ strat is 14 hatch 13 pool, or on Desert oasis 15 hatch 14 pool. If they build early lings, I just build lings as well which will counter those, and hte roach warren goes up as soon as the spawning pool finishes (well as soon as the resources come, roach warren first before second queen if they start pumping lings nonstop, second queen first if they build drones instead).

Desert Oasis lets you react easily. If you build your spawning pool and roach warren along hte minerals the speedlings can't get in without moving into your mineral line, letting you literally rape lings in seconds that tyr to go in. You build an evo chamber that walls wtih the gas and the hatchery at your natural expo that makes lings have to run around and lets them not surround (can only attack with 1/4 the amount of room). Leave 2 roaches at most in your main when they only have around 12-14 speedlings (with the queen as well in your base) and the rest at the expo, eventually you can wall your ramp safely which lets you reinforce much faster. If it's all in you can build a spine crawler which is an amazing tank. If htey are all -in speedlings save for transfusion and use it on the first roach, buys amazing amounts of time.

Concerning skill differences, I mixed you up with this person...




My bad. But still, if you're FRIEND is only at around gold/barely plat, shouldn't you be taking my word over him when I'm constantly ranked top of my division?

On May 13 2010 07:17 Prisom wrote:


This thread seems to gone to little bits of all over the place but all i can say is that I have been going heavy roach rush and I have been dominating all the other zerg I have faced. If they try to tech at all or FE then they are going to get crushed because there is just no way they can compete being 300+ minerals behind. Honestly though, I haven't watched them myself so idk if the other zergs were just bad or what but they are all plat zergs so I am assuming they aren't too terrible though i have seen some impressively bad people in the plat ranks (sitting on 1k minerals, not expanding until they have to remote mine, not counter attacking after winning a big battle ect).

I also notice that a lot of people don't really seem to know how to play after the first 15 mins of a game. There were several plat matches that I played when I was terran where people would just like... suck late game and get steamrolled after having me on the ropes and I was like 50th at the time played slightly favored opponents. Like i said, I am fine just sticking to the roach rush. As long as I am winning and improving as a player I am happy. I'll save the slings/blings/mutas for ZvT.

On May 13 2010 07:39 TyrantGuardian wrote:
In my experience, I rarely if ever lose when I go onebase Roach with 2-0 upgrades. Whenever I see the other player put up an early expansion with speedlings, I just laugh and a-move after building up a sizeable ball of Roaches. Run-by? Just block your ramp with a couple of roaches. Mutas? His hatcheries are down before he gets more than 6 of them.
Considering I already have my lair and evo chambers I can either just spore up or get a Hydra Den, which I usually do sooner or later for the extra dps from the back of my army. Haven't found a good timing to add Infestors yet, myself, but that only matters if I'm facing a mirror build. Anything else just dies to my push.
I've faced a couple of players who put up spine crawlers on their expansion, but with a bit of micro they just end up being wasted minerals (Roaches just tear through them SO fast). Perhaps the upper top players (I'm just a lowly 1700 Plat Zerg myself) can pull off an early expansion against this without dying, but the opponents I tend to face don't seem to.

Regardless, my main point is that mutas don't give you map control at all. If you spend your cash expanding you'll be completely overrun by the Roaches so I don't see how map control would help you out when the Roaching player is just massing his push that can just snipe all your hatcheries pretty much instantly while tanking the muta damage.

Still, ZvZ is much better than it was early in the beta, so I don't mind.

On May 13 2010 10:19 charlie420247 wrote:
i often open with lings zvz to fight off any early ling pressure with help from my queen. from there if he goes roaches i just mass pure ling while teching to lair with first 100 gas then ling speed with second 100 by the time he comes at you with his roaches your spire will be nearly finished and youll have a toooon of lings. from here if you can at least trade army for army w/o losing your spire or drones youll have mutas and it will be gg. if he survives your mutas and gets out hydras just spam roaches and mutas roach muta ling PWNS hydra ling hard. im only 3 in my silver league so take that in mind but imo muta ling is completely viable.

* ZERG

o Roach

+ Supply count increased from 1 to 2.