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On May 02 2010 02:01 avilo wrote:well, my tvp win/loss ratio is around 95% using exclusively this build for so many of my TvPs, soooo...it works. It works amazingly  It has no problems against zealot/sentry unless you do not scout and change your unit composition. If you notice they are doing zealot/sentry, you simply get igniter hellions and banshees from your starport you then also have igniter drop options, transitions into ghost mech easily, transitions into airmech easily, or you can transition it back into a mass marauder bio.
Also one thing to note on this if the protoss switches to sentries and zeolots and the terran tech switches to hellions the terran player will no longer have to spend gas on the units be pumped from his factory.
Which could lead to a.) more banshees b.) more ravens possibly with the hunter seeker missle this time (and eventually transitioning into bc since you have the fusion core anyways to upgrade the seeker missle) c.) more ravens and simply dropping turrets for the extra damage (even though the turrets really suck d.) adding marauders to the marine ball which of course can be used as meatshields for the rines and slow down the zeolots.
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What's with the myth that turrets suck?
2 turrets have 300 hp and 1 armor. A PDD for the same amount of energy blocks 20 attacks, so if the attacks are 16 damage or less each then the turrets are equal/better in durability and deal damage on top of it, as well as "block" all kinds of attacks(and the enemy can't effectively pick off all the marines one by one, because of overkill and zealots being melee, and that requires a lot of micro just to ignore 300 hp and still take damage from the turrets).
The disadvantage is that they use up a good amount of ground area, so they can't be cast on top of your army, but they aren't weak.
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How well does this build do vs voidrays?
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On May 02 2010 19:04 lew wrote:
How well does this build do vs voidrays?
I would say pretty good since there are so many marines as well as it being really easy to transition to vikings since you get an early starport.
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Anyone saying you should go for HT against this must not realise that HTs are 150 gas each and 200 for archives, you're playing off of one base and you can't reliably scout with observers. If your HT build get scouted T can change his composition and you have no idea on how many HTs to get due to no scouting.
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On May 02 2010 19:00 lololol wrote:
What's with the myth that turrets suck?
2 turrets have 300 hp and 1 armor. A PDD for the same amount of energy blocks 20 attacks, so if the attacks are 16 damage or less each then the turrets are equal/better in durability and deal damage on top of it, as well as "block" all kinds of attacks(and the enemy can't effectively pick off all the marines one by one, because of overkill and zealots being melee, and that requires a lot of micro just to ignore 300 hp and still take damage from the turrets).
The disadvantage is that they use up a good amount of ground area, so they can't be cast on top of your army, but they aren't weak.
Any time anyone mentions Raven's being good I link to this thread:
Awesome thread featuring ravens.
The strategy is pretty brilliant, its currently centered around fighting Zerg. But I think it is really creative and needs more attention.
Because yes, Auto-Turrets are cool as hell.
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early scout -> gas steal should cripple raven builds
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On May 02 2010 20:58 Odge wrote:
Anyone saying you should go for HT against this must not realise that HTs are 150 gas each and 200 for archives, you're playing off of one base and you can't reliably scout with observers. If your HT build get scouted T can change his composition and you have no idea on how many HTs to get due to no scouting.
You won't need the HT's when you're on one base. HT's are only necessary when the terran army starts hitting critical mass. Before that point, chargelots, sentries, stalkers, and the odd immortal or two will do just fine.
If the protoss sees the terran investing heavily in a tech build to reach this critical mass, then the protoss player should expand. At that point, getting HT's is no problem.
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On May 02 2010 15:23 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2010 02:01 avilo wrote:well, my tvp win/loss ratio is around 95% using exclusively this build for so many of my TvPs, soooo...it works. It works amazingly It has no problems against zealot/sentry unless you do not scout and change your unit composition. If you notice they are doing zealot/sentry, you simply get igniter hellions and banshees from your starport you then also have igniter drop options, transitions into ghost mech easily, transitions into airmech easily, or you can transition it back into a mass marauder bio. Also one thing to note on this if the protoss switches to sentries and zeolots and the terran tech switches to hellions the terran player will no longer have to spend gas on the units be pumped from his factory. Which could lead to a.) more banshees b.) more ravens possibly with the hunter seeker missle this time (and eventually transitioning into bc since you have the fusion core anyways to upgrade the seeker missle) c.) more ravens and simply dropping turrets for the extra damage (even though the turrets really suck d.) adding marauders to the marine ball which of course can be used as meatshields for the rines and slow down the zeolots.
you no longer need fusion core to research HSM iirc?
Raven
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You do. You're thinking of a comment by Browder where he said they were thinking of not requiring fusion core but weakening HSM at the same time.
Unless I just never noticed the change?^^;
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Wow i have been getting absolutely crushed by this build lol
It rapes voidrays so hard since you will have 10 marines by the first ray (and pumping more) so you can delay indefinitly until you have your army comp and then just a move into your opponents base
I do get to scout the early reactor but not too sure how to beat this build atm
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On May 02 2010 20:58 Odge wrote:
Anyone saying you should go for HT against this must not realise that HTs are 150 gas each and 200 for archives, you're playing off of one base and you can't reliably scout with observers. If your HT build get scouted T can change his composition and you have no idea on how many HTs to get due to no scouting.
No scouting???? who said the observer was the only thing that could scout? hallucinated phoenixes can scout just fine and they are faster.
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granted you cant see cloaked units but that shouldnt be a problem.
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On May 03 2010 02:09 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2010 20:58 Odge wrote:
Anyone saying you should go for HT against this must not realise that HTs are 150 gas each and 200 for archives, you're playing off of one base and you can't reliably scout with observers. If your HT build get scouted T can change his composition and you have no idea on how many HTs to get due to no scouting. No scouting???? who said the observer was the only thing that could scout? hallucinated phoenixes can scout just fine and they are faster.
It is beatable, but not from bad play, and not from unorthodox/cheese strats. like Nony said in some thread, barely anyone is playing at a high level in beta right now. People either refuse to do what could become standard builds (or almost already are) or they refuse to macro good and play safe and instead they do some all-in/cheese every game.
i'd say the best way to play vs this is by playing...good. As in, not trying to "beat" the opening itself, because that is what this T thing is, an opening build, not an entire strategy.
I only play Terran, so I cannot say what is safest definitely from a Protoss perspective, but I would guess safe Protoss openings include a robo/2 gates and observer to scout/react.
then from there you just play solid, think of PDD as SC1 darkswarm, and when T throws it out...run away if you have a stalker based army (which you usually should?)
and you will want good army positioning/map control so that Terran cannot throw down PDDs on your side of the map or near you...really it is like darkswarm  so yah...do not just sit in your base.
besides playing standard, I would keep in mind this is a safe T opening that can stop every all-in possible, from proxy robo or void rays or even 5 gate. So if you do go all-in or for a heavy aggression strat, make sure you skew your unit composition one way completely - either to all stalker/zealot/immortal or all stalker/immortal type of unit compositions. That will force the T to react to you, rather than the other way around.
as for how this T opening works vs nony's phoenix opening...it works very well assuming both players did not cheese or do anything ridiculous, I would say both are on even footing and have great opportunities to attack/defend/expand.
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I watched your replays and this definitely looks like a strong build from the Terran perspective. However, there were opportunities in your games where you could have won easily if you had simply "played better" (I mean no offense by this). The game on Kulas Ravine comes to mind where you were pushing into his base with a zealot/stalker/sentry army and literally never used FF correctly.
Once you had knocked down his supply depot a single force field slightly behind where it was located would have allowed you to destroy his barracks with impunity. Then you could have easily used one or two more to control his army as you walked in and did some serious damage. Instead, you let the majority of his army outside the wallin before using the force field.
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On May 03 2010 02:18 avilo wrote:It is beatable, but not from bad play, and not from unorthodox/cheese strats. like Nony said in some thread, barely anyone is playing at a high level in beta right now. People either refuse to do what could become standard builds (or almost already are) or they refuse to macro good and play safe and instead they do some all-in/cheese every game. i'd say the best way to play vs this is by playing...good. As in, not trying to "beat" the opening itself, because that is what this T thing is, an opening build, not an entire strategy. I only play Terran, so I cannot say what is safest definitely from a Protoss perspective, but I would guess safe Protoss openings include a robo/2 gates and observer to scout/react. then from there you just play solid, think of PDD as SC1 darkswarm, and when T throws it out...run away if you have a stalker based army (which you usually should?) and you will want good army positioning/map control so that Terran cannot throw down PDDs on your side of the map or near you...really it is like darkswarm so yah...do not just sit in your base. besides playing standard, I would keep in mind this is a safe T opening that can stop every all-in possible, from proxy robo or void rays or even 5 gate. So if you do go all-in or for a heavy aggression strat, make sure you skew your unit composition one way completely - either to all stalker/zealot/immortal or all stalker/immortal type of unit compositions. That will force the T to react to you, rather than the other way around. as for how this T opening works vs nony's phoenix opening...it works very well assuming both players did not cheese or do anything ridiculous, I would say both are on even footing and have great opportunities to attack/defend/expand.
Void rays IS supposed to be the safe, standard opening
Going fast robo is an extremely dangerous opening because you are in danger of getting absolutely crushed by marauder builds
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On May 03 2010 02:18 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 02:09 terranghost wrote:On May 02 2010 20:58 Odge wrote:
Anyone saying you should go for HT against this must not realise that HTs are 150 gas each and 200 for archives, you're playing off of one base and you can't reliably scout with observers. If your HT build get scouted T can change his composition and you have no idea on how many HTs to get due to no scouting. No scouting???? who said the observer was the only thing that could scout? hallucinated phoenixes can scout just fine and they are faster. It is beatable, but not from bad play, and not from unorthodox/cheese strats. like Nony said in some thread, barely anyone is playing at a high level in beta right now. People either refuse to do what could become standard builds (or almost already are) or they refuse to macro good and play safe and instead they do some all-in/cheese every game. i'd say the best way to play vs this is by playing...good. As in, not trying to "beat" the opening itself, because that is what this T thing is, an opening build, not an entire strategy. I only play Terran, so I cannot say what is safest definitely from a Protoss perspective, but I would guess safe Protoss openings include a robo/2 gates and observer to scout/react. then from there you just play solid, think of PDD as SC1 darkswarm, and when T throws it out...run away if you have a stalker based army (which you usually should?) and you will want good army positioning/map control so that Terran cannot throw down PDDs on your side of the map or near you...really it is like darkswarm so yah...do not just sit in your base. besides playing standard, I would keep in mind this is a safe T opening that can stop every all-in possible, from proxy robo or void rays or even 5 gate. So if you do go all-in or for a heavy aggression strat, make sure you skew your unit composition one way completely - either to all stalker/zealot/immortal or all stalker/immortal type of unit compositions. That will force the T to react to you, rather than the other way around. as for how this T opening works vs nony's phoenix opening...it works very well assuming both players did not cheese or do anything ridiculous, I would say both are on even footing and have great opportunities to attack/defend/expand.
Any chance you could post a replay of you doing this vs a good protoss?
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On May 03 2010 07:24 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 02:18 avilo wrote:It is beatable, but not from bad play, and not from unorthodox/cheese strats. like Nony said in some thread, barely anyone is playing at a high level in beta right now. People either refuse to do what could become standard builds (or almost already are) or they refuse to macro good and play safe and instead they do some all-in/cheese every game. i'd say the best way to play vs this is by playing...good. As in, not trying to "beat" the opening itself, because that is what this T thing is, an opening build, not an entire strategy. I only play Terran, so I cannot say what is safest definitely from a Protoss perspective, but I would guess safe Protoss openings include a robo/2 gates and observer to scout/react. then from there you just play solid, think of PDD as SC1 darkswarm, and when T throws it out...run away if you have a stalker based army (which you usually should?) and you will want good army positioning/map control so that Terran cannot throw down PDDs on your side of the map or near you...really it is like darkswarm so yah...do not just sit in your base. besides playing standard, I would keep in mind this is a safe T opening that can stop every all-in possible, from proxy robo or void rays or even 5 gate. So if you do go all-in or for a heavy aggression strat, make sure you skew your unit composition one way completely - either to all stalker/zealot/immortal or all stalker/immortal type of unit compositions. That will force the T to react to you, rather than the other way around. as for how this T opening works vs nony's phoenix opening...it works very well assuming both players did not cheese or do anything ridiculous, I would say both are on even footing and have great opportunities to attack/defend/expand. Void rays IS supposed to be the safe, standard opening Going fast robo is an extremely dangerous opening because you are in danger of getting absolutely crushed by marauder builds
What? Robo first is as safe as it gets.
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On May 03 2010 09:43 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 07:24 BrTarolg wrote:On May 03 2010 02:18 avilo wrote:It is beatable, but not from bad play, and not from unorthodox/cheese strats. like Nony said in some thread, barely anyone is playing at a high level in beta right now. People either refuse to do what could become standard builds (or almost already are) or they refuse to macro good and play safe and instead they do some all-in/cheese every game. i'd say the best way to play vs this is by playing...good. As in, not trying to "beat" the opening itself, because that is what this T thing is, an opening build, not an entire strategy. I only play Terran, so I cannot say what is safest definitely from a Protoss perspective, but I would guess safe Protoss openings include a robo/2 gates and observer to scout/react. then from there you just play solid, think of PDD as SC1 darkswarm, and when T throws it out...run away if you have a stalker based army (which you usually should?) and you will want good army positioning/map control so that Terran cannot throw down PDDs on your side of the map or near you...really it is like darkswarm so yah...do not just sit in your base. besides playing standard, I would keep in mind this is a safe T opening that can stop every all-in possible, from proxy robo or void rays or even 5 gate. So if you do go all-in or for a heavy aggression strat, make sure you skew your unit composition one way completely - either to all stalker/zealot/immortal or all stalker/immortal type of unit compositions. That will force the T to react to you, rather than the other way around. as for how this T opening works vs nony's phoenix opening...it works very well assuming both players did not cheese or do anything ridiculous, I would say both are on even footing and have great opportunities to attack/defend/expand. Void rays IS supposed to be the safe, standard opening Going fast robo is an extremely dangerous opening because you are in danger of getting absolutely crushed by marauder builds What? Robo first is as safe as it gets.
Not against Terran. It's safer to buid a stargate and void ray, even if he knows it's coming.
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On May 03 2010 11:09 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
Not against Terran. It's safer to buid a stargate and void ray, even if he knows it's coming.
So what exactly is so dangerous with robo opening?
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EPT
