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On May 20 2010 02:27 Joseki wrote:
Im just going to let everyone in on a pro secret as to why this build isn't played often on a high level of play -
Zelot/Sentry/Phoenix > this. You have like 10 pheonixes with Zelot Sentry and T cannot do anything, you shoot everything out of the air and lift all the tanks, then its just Marine vs Zelot Sentry. Nony completely raped me in round 5 of the craft cup last week countering my raven tank build, and since then I've never looked back at it. The build isn't very good if you scout it.
This isn't used in high level play? The best terrans in the world (all korean) use this build and variations thereof pretty extensively. I'm not sure where you're getting this. Jinro just recently used this style of build to beat naniwa as well.
edit: oh yeah, and dayfly crushed hasuobs with a variation of it as well.
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On May 21 2010 00:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:2 Warp Gate Zealot/Sentry with 1 Stargate Phoenix would destroy that Terran attack. That Protoss player was making Stalkers and a Robotics and Immortals.
Nony has spoken! will try phoenix zealot/sentry
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On May 21 2010 01:26 Nitron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 00:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:On May 21 2010 00:43 Orcmaniac wrote:for the ppl that dont think this build work at high lvl. this is pretty much exactly the build I use http://blip.tv/file/3641505 2 Warp Gate Zealot/Sentry with 1 Stargate Phoenix would destroy that Terran attack. That Protoss player was making Stalkers and a Robotics and Immortals. Nony has spoken! will try phoenix zealot/sentry
Maka has actually been doing a variation with cloak banshee that will pretty much rape any toss build that doesn't get an early robo. Very similar concept though, it's very powerful.
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On May 21 2010 01:26 Nitron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 00:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:On May 21 2010 00:43 Orcmaniac wrote:for the ppl that dont think this build work at high lvl. this is pretty much exactly the build I use http://blip.tv/file/3641505 2 Warp Gate Zealot/Sentry with 1 Stargate Phoenix would destroy that Terran attack. That Protoss player was making Stalkers and a Robotics and Immortals. Nony has spoken! will try phoenix zealot/sentry
Here's the one thing to keep in mind when using the Nony build against the terran: the build is at its best when fighting the terran in the open. If you attack into a terran chokepoint, you're probably going to have problems unless the terran has a much smaller army. Use the build to deny terran expansions and take your own expansion. If you're on a map like lost temple that has a cloistered natural, you probably will not be able to deny the expo if the terran refuses to come out of his base. When that happens, simply take advantage of your map control and out-expand the terran. Also, make sure that you transition into either colossi or templar to establish an AoE presence for the mid-late game.
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8748 Posts
On May 21 2010 01:40 PROJECTILE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 01:26 Nitron wrote:On May 21 2010 00:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:On May 21 2010 00:43 Orcmaniac wrote:for the ppl that dont think this build work at high lvl. this is pretty much exactly the build I use http://blip.tv/file/3641505 2 Warp Gate Zealot/Sentry with 1 Stargate Phoenix would destroy that Terran attack. That Protoss player was making Stalkers and a Robotics and Immortals. Nony has spoken! will try phoenix zealot/sentry Maka has actually been doing a variation with cloak banshee that will pretty much rape any toss build that doesn't get an early robo. Very similar concept though, it's very powerful.
The first Phoenix will see something researching at the Tech Lab and a Robotics can go up then. It's not so bad for Protoss.
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People are thinking about the raven opening or apparently known as the "1/1/1" build in korea the wrong way.
It is just an opening build, and allows you to adapt in any direction depending on how well you scout. For some reason some people here are stuck in the mind set - oh, I will always build a banshee, oh I will always continue marines, oh I will always get the tank first, etc.
You can change the tiniest things depending on what you see, or what you do not see. If you see a phoenix, you can start to accumulate vikings along with ground production, to nullify the vikings.
Now, if you see them keep making phoenix, you keep making vikings/marines, etc. If you see massive zealot/sentry, then you wanna basically stop marines, and get a second factory on your reactor and igniter upgrade.
It is not robotic cookie cutter build that is gonna be the same way every game.
edit: saw that day9/gretorp commentated game of dayfly, I am surprised that they seem so surprised that that build exists already. Do they not read TL? lol. They acted way too "surprised" or did they really not know about it?
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Any Terran that doesn't change his composition upon finding out that he's up against Air is doing the build wrong.
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On May 21 2010 03:59 avilo wrote:
People are thinking about the raven opening or apparently known as the "1/1/1" build in korea the wrong way.
It is just an opening build, and allows you to adapt in any direction depending on how well you scout. For some reason some people here are stuck in the mind set - oh, I will always build a banshee, oh I will always continue marines, oh I will always get the tank first, etc.
You can change the tiniest things depending on what you see, or what you do not see. If you see a phoenix, you can start to accumulate vikings along with ground production, to nullify the vikings.
Now, if you see them keep making phoenix, you keep making vikings/marines, etc. If you see massive zealot/sentry, then you wanna basically stop marines, and get a second factory on your reactor and igniter upgrade.
It is not robotic cookie cutter build that is gonna be the same way every game.
edit: saw that day9/gretorp commentated game of dayfly, I am surprised that they seem so surprised that that build exists already. Do they not read TL? lol. They acted way too "surprised" or did they really not know about it?
Yeah but at least protoss can counter the early opening build, if he sees terran getting viking/marine he can get stop making phoenixes and get stalkers. The phoenix is for sniping off ravens/banshees. Obviously its best if we can counter our opponents units directly, but unless you have maphack, we cant really do that cant we? Terran cant possible throw off scans all over the map all the time. Perhaps you may have other ways to beat this?. Or if NonY has some replay packs to show us?
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On May 21 2010 03:59 avilo wrote:
edit: saw that day9/gretorp commentated game of dayfly, I am surprised that they seem so surprised that that build exists already. Do they not read TL? lol. They acted way too "surprised" or did they really not know about it?
day9 seem to live in his own world sometimes and maybe it's the same for gretorp.
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On May 21 2010 05:00 McCrank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 03:59 avilo wrote:
edit: saw that day9/gretorp commentated game of dayfly, I am surprised that they seem so surprised that that build exists already. Do they not read TL? lol. They acted way too "surprised" or did they really not know about it? day9 seem to live in his own world sometimes and maybe it's the same for gretorp.
Do you guys have a link to the hasuobs vs dayfly commentary?
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On May 21 2010 04:56 Nitron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 03:59 avilo wrote:
People are thinking about the raven opening or apparently known as the "1/1/1" build in korea the wrong way.
It is just an opening build, and allows you to adapt in any direction depending on how well you scout. For some reason some people here are stuck in the mind set - oh, I will always build a banshee, oh I will always continue marines, oh I will always get the tank first, etc.
You can change the tiniest things depending on what you see, or what you do not see. If you see a phoenix, you can start to accumulate vikings along with ground production, to nullify the vikings.
Now, if you see them keep making phoenix, you keep making vikings/marines, etc. If you see massive zealot/sentry, then you wanna basically stop marines, and get a second factory on your reactor and igniter upgrade.
It is not robotic cookie cutter build that is gonna be the same way every game.
edit: saw that day9/gretorp commentated game of dayfly, I am surprised that they seem so surprised that that build exists already. Do they not read TL? lol. They acted way too "surprised" or did they really not know about it? Yeah but at least protoss can counter the early opening build, if he sees terran getting viking/marine he can get stop making phoenixes and get stalkers. The phoenix is for sniping off ravens/banshees. Obviously its best if we can counter our opponents units directly, but unless you have maphack, we cant really do that cant we? Terran cant possible throw off scans all over the map all the time. Perhaps you may have other ways to beat this?. Or if NonY has some replay packs to show us?
In your example, the protoss isn't countering the build, he's countering the player. All that this build does is open up a variety of techpaths for the the terran. Nothing more. It's no different than a protoss player going 1-gate robo or 1-gate stargate. Both openings provide for easy early scouting and quick transitions into techs that counter whatever the opposition is doing.
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hmmmm I don't do this build b/c i'm terrified of mass blink stalkers. although zealots have the most dps of gateway units, you can decrease the dps of marines by not getting zealots, and exploiting movement with stalkers and sentries. What do i mean by this?
Picture a ball of marines, say 12 marines. If they engage against 6 zealots, they will be maximizing their DPS because all 12 marines will be shooting on them due to zealots being close range. Now switch out 6 zealots for 5 stalkers. The marines now have variable dps, as it depends on the arc and range to the stalkers. Since stalkers are faster, you can abuse this idea and essentially decrease the army by doing kiting on the marines, taking minimal damage. Blink stalkers will keep you much safer of course. This is a simple idea, but it just supports the claim going this mass zealot army isn't too strong. I know stalkers aren't terribly strong, but with good movement play and micro, I believe this build can be undermined very easily. Especially on small ramp maps, if a terran pushes on you, say lt, and you have your blink stalkers in the middle(maybe 3 warpgate), you can keep the terran in their base for a very long while. If they commit, you simply counter, make sentries, and FF your ramp.
Definitely gotta undermine the movement play in against this build. Clutch.
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Gretorp you don't have to push. It's the same as your ghost build. It's just an opening and sometimes you can push with your initial opening force.
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On May 21 2010 05:06 Gretorp wrote:
hmmmm I don't do this build b/c i'm terrified of mass blink stalkers. although zealots have the most dps of gateway units, you can decrease the dps of marines by not getting zealots, and exploiting movement with stalkers and sentries. What do i mean by this?
Picture a ball of marines, say 12 marines. If they engage against 6 zealots, they will be maximizing their DPS because all 12 marines will be shooting on them due to zealots being close range. Now switch out 6 zealots for 5 stalkers. The marines now have variable dps, as it depends on the arc and range to the stalkers. Since stalkers are faster, you can abuse this idea and essentially decrease the army by doing kiting on the marines, taking minimal damage. Blink stalkers will keep you much safer of course. This is a simple idea, but it just supports the claim going this mass zealot army isn't too strong. I know stalkers aren't terribly strong, but with good movement play and micro, I believe this build can be undermined very easily. Especially on small ramp maps, if a terran pushes on you, say lt, and you have your blink stalkers in the middle(maybe 3 warpgate), you can keep the terran in their base for a very long while. If they commit, you simply counter, make sentries, and FF your ramp.
Definitely gotta undermine the movement play in against this build. Clutch.
Zealots, even with all the marines firing at them, are still way more dangerous than stalkers. Marines melt pretty quickly against zealots without stim, some kind of meatshield, or without critical mass. Stalkers are more annoying than deadly. Remember, nothing in this build requires you to push out. In fact, playing defensively against blink stalkers is probably the smarter idea; you can simply expand to your natural and make sure you have spotters around any paths he might try to blink up. If he's really intent on doing mass stalkers, it's pretty easy to amass a much stronger army over a brief time and you can simply walk into his base and kill everything if he's not in position to kite or even try a slow push.
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On May 21 2010 05:05 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 04:56 Nitron wrote:On May 21 2010 03:59 avilo wrote:
People are thinking about the raven opening or apparently known as the "1/1/1" build in korea the wrong way.
It is just an opening build, and allows you to adapt in any direction depending on how well you scout. For some reason some people here are stuck in the mind set - oh, I will always build a banshee, oh I will always continue marines, oh I will always get the tank first, etc.
You can change the tiniest things depending on what you see, or what you do not see. If you see a phoenix, you can start to accumulate vikings along with ground production, to nullify the vikings.
Now, if you see them keep making phoenix, you keep making vikings/marines, etc. If you see massive zealot/sentry, then you wanna basically stop marines, and get a second factory on your reactor and igniter upgrade.
It is not robotic cookie cutter build that is gonna be the same way every game.
edit: saw that day9/gretorp commentated game of dayfly, I am surprised that they seem so surprised that that build exists already. Do they not read TL? lol. They acted way too "surprised" or did they really not know about it? Yeah but at least protoss can counter the early opening build, if he sees terran getting viking/marine he can get stop making phoenixes and get stalkers. The phoenix is for sniping off ravens/banshees. Obviously its best if we can counter our opponents units directly, but unless you have maphack, we cant really do that cant we? Terran cant possible throw off scans all over the map all the time. Perhaps you may have other ways to beat this?. Or if NonY has some replay packs to show us? In your example, the protoss isn't countering the build, he's countering the player. All that this build does is open up a variety of techpaths for the the terran. Nothing more. It's no different than a protoss player going 1-gate robo or 1-gate stargate. Both openings provide for easy early scouting and quick transitions into techs that counter whatever the opposition is doing.
I apologise, its not countering the 1/1/1 build, but rather counter the marine/tank/raven/banshee combination
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Pressuring when I know my opponent is trying to get away with fast tech is how I win many of my games, it is part of my standard build. If I can't break I won't try and I won't waste that many units or make more unnecessarily.
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what he said ^^^^ i'm still sorta new to sc but when i did this build against another protoss he had 2 stargates up and chrono boosted them to get voidrays/phoenix/ and even a carrier. i had a decent sized army, but the banshee's/siegetanks/ravens couldnt hit nuthin so it was my fault for not scouting properly but the air units did get me.
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On May 21 2010 03:31 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2010 01:40 PROJECTILE wrote:On May 21 2010 01:26 Nitron wrote:On May 21 2010 00:57 Liquid`NonY wrote:On May 21 2010 00:43 Orcmaniac wrote:for the ppl that dont think this build work at high lvl. this is pretty much exactly the build I use http://blip.tv/file/3641505 2 Warp Gate Zealot/Sentry with 1 Stargate Phoenix would destroy that Terran attack. That Protoss player was making Stalkers and a Robotics and Immortals. Nony has spoken! will try phoenix zealot/sentry Maka has actually been doing a variation with cloak banshee that will pretty much rape any toss build that doesn't get an early robo. Very similar concept though, it's very powerful. The first Phoenix will see something researching at the Tech Lab and a Robotics can go up then. It's not so bad for Protoss.
I don't know many, I'm raging right now because every single PvT I've played today the terran has done this build and won. I tried the 2 Warpgate / Phoenix and it didn't work for me. The terran got combat shields and enough marines / tanks / banshees to easily kill my ground force off and the phoenix would die also. The banshees easily target fire my sentires so gaurdian shield isn't helping and they always have tons of marines, a few tanks, and sometimes also get 2 vikings to easily kill the phoenix. This build now seems even more impossible to beat, seriously. The terran can make vikings so easily and already has so many rines that phoenix die very fast, and with the sentries sniped by the banshees the zealots just get raped by the marines with combat shield and tanks.
~_~~~~~~
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Gretorp is right in that mass Stalkers with map/movement control can definitely undermine this build. As I posted earlier, mass Stalkers is something you have to actually straight up beat, there is no single unit tech switch that Terran can pull out of his ass to negate all Stalkers. Furthermore, by playing mobile and holding the middle of the map, the Protoss can not only snipe down some units, but bait the Terran into wasting his PDD and then pull back, making the Terran unable to go anywhere but back to his base. Once the Protoss has the Terran on his heels again he can expand and the game moves on to the mid-late macro game (as the build is designed to do) but this time with Protoss with the upper hand in map control instead of the Terran. I'm not sure if it negates the entire build, but mass Stalkers certainly counters that standard 9min push composition that the Terran will usually send.
Unless the Terran does a bonehead move and gets run over by an army comp that beats his due to lack of scouting and addon switching, he will quickly be able to react to a mass of light units or air. There is no "oh switch these two buildings and I'm good to go" vs mass Stalkers though.
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EPT
