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Ugh, when properly executed this build is monstrous.
I think I'm gonna try phoenix + 3 gate zealot stalker next time, clear the air of ravens and banshees then lift the tanks while hopefully the zealots tank the marines. Phoenix lift unsieges tanks which helps a lot if the terran is slow pushing.
The problem is the terran can vary the timing of this push depending on when you'll be weakest so trying to expand before the terran is right out.
One thing to note is the terran is pretty vulnerable early on so you can harass him a bit with stalker. I dunno
Also if you predict this build from a terran is it worth to gas steal?
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I didn't read all of the ten pages of this thread but I just beat this build a little while ago against an 1850 platinum T.
I did a 4-gate with robo (3-gate would have prob been fine) defensive build, where I took my natural around 9:30 into the game. You need a strong focus on immortal/sentry/zeal. Sentries for FF/guardian shield and target firing banshees and immortals vs tanks. Stalkers are obviously useless..
In the late game, I focused on defending and taking out expansions knowing that his force is not very mobile with siege tanks and opted for map control with speeded void rays and a primarily gateway oriented unit composition. Void ray is a very good transition in the mid-late game. Charge is also a necessity. Taking out all of his expansions and limiting him to two or three bases will guarantee you win the game in the long run.
It was a fun build to play against...see replay. I think this build is best countered by defensive and responsive play with a focus on later game map control as the terran's force is primarily immobile if they keep pumping tanks. I'm not sure about other possible transitions for the terran (is it possible for them to switch to MMM?) Either way, good scouting and countering should go a long way.
I *think* phoenix with 3-gate is a good early game method of countering this also - maybe even more effective as it grants you early map control and completely nullifies tanks...have yet to try it but I find robo builds to be generally safer vs other terran openings.
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NoNy just crushed this build with early phoenix and zealot/sentry on the SA Finals stream. (Showmatch after finals).
Really good execution by NoNy.
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ok you should probably quickly tech up to HTs and make archons. He has spent alot of gas making tanks/ravens/banshees so he probably wont have enuff to create ghost. Archons can take dmg and can attack land and air making it difficult for marines and banshees. Also if u have any left over HTs u can just use feed back agianst the ravens. probably wont even need storm. This might not be standard but his build really isnt standard aswell he is making ravens usually u see ravens in TvZ and ghost in TvP (not always but majority of the time). you also probably dont want to make to many stalkers probably go heavy immo/sent/zeal charge is recommended
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On May 16 2010 09:01 Ner0 wrote:
NoNy just crushed this build with early phoenix and zealot/sentry on the SA Finals stream. (Showmatch after finals).
Really good execution by NoNy.
any vods or replays of this?
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On May 15 2010 13:33 StormsInJuly wrote:
Ugh, when properly executed this build is monstrous.
I think I'm gonna try phoenix + 3 gate zealot stalker next time, clear the air of ravens and banshees then lift the tanks while hopefully the zealots tank the marines. Phoenix lift unsieges tanks which helps a lot if the terran is slow pushing.
The problem is the terran can vary the timing of this push depending on when you'll be weakest so trying to expand before the terran is right out.
One thing to note is the terran is pretty vulnerable early on so you can harass him a bit with stalker. I dunno
Also if you predict this build from a terran is it worth to gas steal?
Don't bother with the gas steal. Just play straight up and go phoenix / heavy zealot, with stalkers and sentries as gas allows for support. Use your phoenixes to lift tanks and marauders. Adjust as necessary with phoenix scouting.
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To beat this build, the Protoss doesn't have to do anything special. The timing push revolves around the PDD being placed at the right place at the right time, forcing the Protoss into an engagement where the PDD becomes really powerful against armies with Stalkers. To beat this build, simply go mass Stalkers with blink and engage the Terran in the middle of the map or at his base. Fight him until he drops the PDD then pull back. Without the PDD the Terran doesn't have a way to push you or engage a group of Stalkers. Sprinkle some Zealots into your force to distract his army while you blink up and snipe the Banshees, Tanks, and Raven.
Most Protoss seem to respond with some sort of Zealot/Sentry/HT force, but this is a mistake. Tech switching for the Terran is really easy with this build and mass upgraded Hellions are right around the corner as soon as you push him back with any kind of light unit army. I also don't recommend going air as Vikings are also just around the corner and Hellions will still ruin you if you don't have a solid armored ground presence (not Zealots and Sentries). Also beware if you try to use Phoenix to counter this army as the PDD does in fact block Phoenix shots and the Terran will start focus firing with his Marines if you lift up tanks.
If you go mass blink stalkers and ruin his PDD timing, you can easily run him over when he doesn't have the PDD and there is no quick tech switch answer to stopping mass stalkers as Terran.
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On May 18 2010 00:29 PacketOverflow wrote:
To beat this build, the Protoss doesn't have to do anything special. The timing push revolves around the PDD being placed at the right place at the right time, forcing the Protoss into an engagement where the PDD becomes really powerful against armies with Stalkers. To beat this build, simply go mass Stalkers with blink and engage the Terran in the middle of the map or at his base. Fight him until he drops the PDD then pull back. Without the PDD the Terran doesn't have a way to push you or engage a group of Stalkers. Sprinkle some Zealots into your force to distract his army while you blink up and snipe the Banshees, Tanks, and Raven.
Most Protoss seem to respond with some sort of Zealot/Sentry/HT force, but this is a mistake. Tech switching for the Terran is really easy with this build and mass upgraded Hellions are right around the corner as soon as you push him back with any kind of light unit army. I also don't recommend going air as Vikings are also just around the corner and Hellions will still ruin you if you don't have a solid armored ground presence (not Zealots and Sentries). Also beware if you try to use Phoenix to counter this army as the PDD does in fact block Phoenix shots and the Terran will start focus firing with his Marines if you lift up tanks.
If you go mass blink stalkers and ruin his PDD timing, you can easily run him over when he doesn't have the PDD and there is no quick tech switch answer to stopping mass stalkers as Terran.
You're to going to have your day ruined if you go mass stalker and the terran goes heavy marauders. Also, the micro involved with the stalkers is very intense and leaves very little margin for error.
I've found phoenixes to be a very safe response to this build. You don't need to shoot anything with the phoenixes, you just need to lift key units (marauders, tanks, and hellions [if he has them]) so that your zealots can rip his marines up. If the terran wants to shoot my phoenixes with his marines, that's fine with me. My zealots will eat him alive before he's able to do too much damage.
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On May 18 2010 00:48 xDaunt wrote:
You're to going to have your day ruined if you go mass stalker and the terran goes heavy marauders. Also, the micro involved with the stalkers is very intense and leaves very little margin for error.
I've found phoenixes to be a very safe response to this build. You don't need to shoot anything with the phoenixes, you just need to lift key units (marauders, tanks, and hellions [if he has them]) so that your zealots can rip his marines up. If the terran wants to shoot my phoenixes with his marines, that's fine with me. My zealots will eat him alive before he's able to do too much damage.
Mass Marauders is really easy to see coming though. This build, while flexible, is pretty obvious to see just by sending a Probe up the ramp. 99/100 times the Terran will have the Barracks on the ramp with a Tech Lab to get a head start on Marauder production for his timing push. If you see it with a Reactor making a lot of Marines (mineral dumping), chances are good it's not two more Barracks in the back but something more gas heavy. The Reactor or Tech Lab on the Barracks both go up fairly early so you've got a good window to prepare. The Terran would have to purposely slow his build/push in order to feed you false information and while this is possible, it's not common. Even if he tries to hide his marauders or tech, sending your early anti-reaper Stalker (or 2) to his ramp will usually force the Terran to show his hand as the usual 2 marine defense won't be enough to stop the harassment.
(Also: this build produces no Marauders before the first 9min push, if you see even one Marauder at any point in the early game, he's not doing this build.)
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As the terran who's used this combo a while ago in beta:
zealot, sentry, minimum proportion of stalker, phoenix, FE, and good macro into mass ground (stalker, etc) with HT > this strategy
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On May 18 2010 01:10 nujgnoy wrote:
As the terran who's used this combo a while ago in beta:
zealot, sentry, minimum proportion of stalker, phoenix, FE, and good macro into mass ground (stalker, etc) with HT > this strategy
Good macro and unit diversity does indeed beat this build. It's a build designed to defeat most Protoss timing pushes while also applying pressure and expanding, as it's designed to force the Protoss into a macro focused game. It only outright defeats Protoss who are so dependent on their 1base plays that they are uncomfortable with more drawn out macro games. Past the 9min timing push and lines being drawn in the sand, it's up to you to beat the Protoss yourself. The push is not a catch-all-and-win-the-game build, but a soft counter to most Protoss 1base pushes that allows you to expand and quickly switch tech to anything that you require.
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Im just going to let everyone in on a pro secret as to why this build isn't played often on a high level of play -
Zelot/Sentry/Phoenix > this. You have like 10 pheonixes with Zelot Sentry and T cannot do anything, you shoot everything out of the air and lift all the tanks, then its just Marine vs Zelot Sentry. Nony completely raped me in round 5 of the craft cup last week countering my raven tank build, and since then I've never looked back at it. The build isn't very good if you scout it.
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On May 20 2010 02:27 Joseki wrote:
Im just going to let everyone in on a pro secret as to why this build isn't played often on a high level of play -
Zelot/Sentry/Phoenix > this. You have like 10 pheonixes with Zelot Sentry and T cannot do anything, you shoot everything out of the air and lift all the tanks, then its just Marine vs Zelot Sentry. Nony completely raped me in round 5 of the craft cup last week countering my raven tank build, and since then I've never looked back at it. The build isn't very good if you scout it.
so whats the best way to play tvp ;/
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On May 20 2010 02:27 Joseki wrote:
Im just going to let everyone in on a pro secret as to why this build isn't played often on a high level of play -
Zelot/Sentry/Phoenix > this. You have like 10 pheonixes with Zelot Sentry and T cannot do anything, you shoot everything out of the air and lift all the tanks, then its just Marine vs Zelot Sentry. Nony completely raped me in round 5 of the craft cup last week countering my raven tank build, and since then I've never looked back at it. The build isn't very good if you scout it.
Nope. Zealot/sentry/phoenix is not > this. And this is not > zealot/sentry/phoenix. It is up to player skill, which is why the opening is so great. Nony undoubtedly outplayed you.
I'm guessing you did not build any vikings, or not enough  the "build" is an opening, and is dependent on a good level of scouting information and experience with it. It is not just simply a "build" or "opening" that you do by copy pasting and have a counter to everything. Tiny adjustments are key.
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On May 20 2010 02:44 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2010 02:27 Joseki wrote:
Im just going to let everyone in on a pro secret as to why this build isn't played often on a high level of play -
Zelot/Sentry/Phoenix > this. You have like 10 pheonixes with Zelot Sentry and T cannot do anything, you shoot everything out of the air and lift all the tanks, then its just Marine vs Zelot Sentry. Nony completely raped me in round 5 of the craft cup last week countering my raven tank build, and since then I've never looked back at it. The build isn't very good if you scout it. Nope. Zealot/sentry/phoenix is not > this. And this is not > zealot/sentry/phoenix. It is up to player skill, which is why the opening is so great. Nony undoubtedly outplayed you. I'm guessing you did not build any vikings, or not enough the "build" is an opening, and is dependent on a good level of scouting information and experience with it. It is not just simply a "build" or "opening" that you do by copy pasting and have a counter to everything. Tiny adjustments are key.
100% agree here. You don't just keep blindly building marine + tank + raven/banshee if protoss masses 10 phoenix -_-
First off, if you see a stargate you should immediately stop making raven/banshee and start producing vikings. Stargate usually means void rays.
Secondly, if you see protoss massing phoenix, you should start making thor, thor are the hard counter to phoenix; they do extra damge to light air units, and they are massive, meaning they are immune to gravitron beam. 2 thors + your viking/marine should be more than enough for phoenix. Use the raven(s) you already have to cast PDD, it affects phoenix.
Lastly, if you scout zealot/sentry or a lack of stalker, you should stop making tanks and start making igniter hellions. And if you already made ravens, use them to make auto-turrets. If you already made banshees, get cloak, a stargate opening = toss has no observers, at least not for awhile.
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On May 20 2010 02:27 Joseki wrote:
Im just going to let everyone in on a pro secret as to why this build isn't played often on a high level of play -
Zelot/Sentry/Phoenix > this. You have like 10 pheonixes with Zelot Sentry and T cannot do anything, you shoot everything out of the air and lift all the tanks, then its just Marine vs Zelot Sentry. Nony completely raped me in round 5 of the craft cup last week countering my raven tank build, and since then I've never looked back at it. The build isn't very good if you scout it.
Replay?
Because some of the strongest parts of this build come from an early timing push when you wouldn't have many Phoenixes and the marines would easily be able to defend against them with the PDD.
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On May 20 2010 02:27 Joseki wrote:
Im just going to let everyone in on a pro secret as to why this build isn't played often on a high level of play -
Zelot/Sentry/Phoenix > this. You have like 10 pheonixes with Zelot Sentry and T cannot do anything, you shoot everything out of the air and lift all the tanks, then its just Marine vs Zelot Sentry. Nony completely raped me in round 5 of the craft cup last week countering my raven tank build, and since then I've never looked back at it. The build isn't very good if you scout it.
Blindly buiding the composition when the counter is being made is a big mistake. There is a good time around when your Starport goes up that you can afford a scan without having any buildings/units slowed down due to not having a MULE. The Marine/Tank/Raven/Banshee is only a framework for the build made to counter STANDARD Protoss one-base play. If you even suspect that the Protoss is going to attempt to counter this SPECIFIC build then you need to find out what he's doing and counter ahead of time by using the incredibly flexible building framework the build leaves available to you.
ex. Against my one friend he decided he was going to counter the build with Colossus tech and Sentry/Zealot. I scanned as my Raven was being produced and saw the support bay. Instead of making Banshees right away, I made Vikings. I hung out around his nat baiting his Colossus into my vikings by moving a little forward to take a potshot or two with my ground force. While I had him in this light contain I expanded. I got a lucky break and sniped a Colossus with my vikings so I moved in and sieged up. If I hadn't reacted by making Vikings, I wouldn't have been able to engage him without risking either my banshees or getting my ground force split and evaporated with FF.
Above all else, this is a FLEXIBLE build, not a game winning (or losing) timing push with a set composition.
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Here is a replay of a 3 gate/robo strategy that countered early Terran aggression with Tank/Marine/Banshee.
I would like to submit that the best way to exploit this build if you are going to stick to Robo, is to get fast upgrades. I routinely throw down my forge right after my Robo and keep boosting upgrades (though I did a sloppy job of it in the replay). When T diversifies his units with Tanks, Marines, Banshees and Ravens, there is no way he will be able to keep up in upgrades.
Additionally, as soon as you scout this build, plan to head toward HT. The key part is the early battle and the final battle where HT are used. Enjoy!
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8748 Posts
On May 21 2010 00:43 Orcmaniac wrote:for the ppl that dont think this build work at high lvl. this is pretty much exactly the build I use http://blip.tv/file/3641505
2 Warp Gate Zealot/Sentry with 1 Stargate Phoenix would destroy that Terran attack. That Protoss player was making Stalkers and a Robotics and Immortals.
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EPT
