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Why the hell are people arguing about ghosts/HTs? lmao, those are already pretty balanced. Whoever is better wins, leave it at that.
On May 05 2010 00:54 Snowfield wrote:
I have a question
When you do this build at it hits midgame, your pushing out banshees and siegetanks with marines
i just find that i start to float alot of minerals and lack gas, do you expand then? or pump more marines out form barrackes?
Anyone got some more good replays with this build?
The point of this build is to be able to have many options and stop all-ins while being able to also pressure greedy toss builds. The build also lets you secure your expansion as well, so when you do move out, you do build a command center.
There is a point where you wanna stop building marines and switch into airmech, bio MMM, or ghost mech, as marines are gonna be pretty useless later on.
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Ive been having some reasonable sucess fighting this build using a 3 stalker 1 voidray harass to keep the marine count low, expand containing and then mustering an army big enough hwen he pushes
Requires much more superior micro than your opponent though it is pretty tough
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Pretty suprised i haven't seen this in any recent tournaments.
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Hey avilo could you post a replay pack that would be so awesome.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2010 00:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 17:40 Kyuki wrote:
Wow - I can't belive the way you are arguing your "HT's are worthless and ghosts are OP" case here WorkersOfTheWorld..
This is what you've done so far trying to prove a point:
- If two attack moving armies move towards eachother EMP will kick the shit out of everything the toss has. Toss sucks!
- EMP will hit a clump of unit! It's AoE! What if a HT tries to feedback it, it's AoE and will always hit more than 1 unit! Toss sucks!
- EMP can be spammed like all other spells, it's as useful as forcefield spam or whatever spell spam in battle! (Even when the toss has no shields or energy left!)
- Observers will always be way infront of the Toss army and since Terran has Raven, observer dies. Cloak IS AWESOME!
- You cant feedback PDD. Toss sucks!
And it goes on.
If you really intend to view the balance in the MU (Not between the two units because that's completely useless.) you'd look at what happens during the fights, not just "think" what's happening and expect every player out there to be fucking crap when doing it.
And yes ofc this build that this OP is all about is a PUSH, if he doesnt push you will have complete reign over the map and you will kill him with whatever tech choice.
And enough about this crap about Toss not having lategame strength, please just stop trolling.. I never said it was a current issue. I think it's an up-coming issue. How many PvT matches have you seen in the last moth or more that lasted more than 15 mins? Most last aroud 8-10. We really have no idea what the MU is like late-game except for the few outliers i've been able to view and all of those have been toss losses if he hadn't already run away with the game from a timing push. I realize everyone here is going to say "Oh, but look at the toss owning T all day long in the tournaments." That's great, but long-term gameplay isn't going to be 7min timing push with gateway units, OP void rays, and the occasional immortal timing push. The trend is going to be toward longer games, macro games. That's something I don't think toss are comfortable with and I believe this open is a good example of why. Contrary to popular myths, we don't have the best t3 units. We don't have the best spells. We don't have the strongest end-game, at all.
What games have you been watching that weren't decided within the first 15 mins? O_0
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On May 05 2010 05:31 itzbrandnew wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 05 2010 00:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 17:40 Kyuki wrote:
Wow - I can't belive the way you are arguing your "HT's are worthless and ghosts are OP" case here WorkersOfTheWorld..
This is what you've done so far trying to prove a point:
- If two attack moving armies move towards eachother EMP will kick the shit out of everything the toss has. Toss sucks!
- EMP will hit a clump of unit! It's AoE! What if a HT tries to feedback it, it's AoE and will always hit more than 1 unit! Toss sucks!
- EMP can be spammed like all other spells, it's as useful as forcefield spam or whatever spell spam in battle! (Even when the toss has no shields or energy left!)
- Observers will always be way infront of the Toss army and since Terran has Raven, observer dies. Cloak IS AWESOME!
- You cant feedback PDD. Toss sucks!
And it goes on.
If you really intend to view the balance in the MU (Not between the two units because that's completely useless.) you'd look at what happens during the fights, not just "think" what's happening and expect every player out there to be fucking crap when doing it.
And yes ofc this build that this OP is all about is a PUSH, if he doesnt push you will have complete reign over the map and you will kill him with whatever tech choice.
And enough about this crap about Toss not having lategame strength, please just stop trolling.. I never said it was a current issue. I think it's an up-coming issue. How many PvT matches have you seen in the last moth or more that lasted more than 15 mins? Most last aroud 8-10. We really have no idea what the MU is like late-game except for the few outliers i've been able to view and all of those have been toss losses if he hadn't already run away with the game from a timing push. I realize everyone here is going to say "Oh, but look at the toss owning T all day long in the tournaments." That's great, but long-term gameplay isn't going to be 7min timing push with gateway units, OP void rays, and the occasional immortal timing push. The trend is going to be toward longer games, macro games. That's something I don't think toss are comfortable with and I believe this open is a good example of why. Contrary to popular myths, we don't have the best t3 units. We don't have the best spells. We don't have the strongest end-game, at all. What games have you been watching that weren't decided within the first 15 mins? O_0
Thanks for making my point? I said matches -were- being decided that early and i think this should/will change eventually, and that with current balance that might be a big problem for toss, who have a lot (basically everything) riding on their 10min push in PvT and a lot of units that become obsolete or dramatically less effective later on compared to their counterparts.
Maybe sc2 will always be this fast (quite dissapointing, imo), but i've always hoped games woud tend to run longer as the game got older and more developed.
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I think TvP usually ends in midgame b/c of the following:
1. Defense is difficult b/c of: unit abilities and less terrain advantage. In bw a terran could hold of 2 gate pressure with 1fact while expanding. In sc2 terran doesn't have the strong defense potential for the cost potential. Cliff fighting doesn't provide as much advantage as before. Units can also bypass cliffs much faster.
2. Terran's higher tier units haven't been popularized in TvP. Terran has not much incentive to go for late game to use ravens and battlecruisers (or even mass thor; small numbers of thors are popular, but not mass thors). BCs are countered by feedback(which prevent yamatos from ever being used) and void rays effectively.
3. Protoss's higher tier is seen more frequently (colo, void), but its endgame tech (carrier/mothership) are still not very viable b/c they are countered by vikings.
4. Protoss's AoE is very strong when collected (colo + high templar). So P has an advantage in large army battles. T's AoE is not as present (tanks whose splash is questionable as of now), so for T it's better to end games in medium scale battles.
5. Player's haven't been as developed. Ghost and HT properly microed can nullify each other, but players just haven't the confidence in their micro/army management. So they want to end the game early. But as the game becomes more developed, longer games will start to dominate as players' strategy, reactions, micro/macromanagement, etc. get better.
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protect your templar and bring them in the rear. An emp'd protoss army can still fight with zealots/colossus on the field. however, if 3 storms go off the Terran army must back up or lose 30 units
At worst, hotkey a warp prism along with an obs and drop them to the side of the battle.
Also, a sentry/zealot army with fast templar tech would rape this build. clean up the ground army and warp in stalkers to finish the feedbacked banshees.
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I think this topic needs more attention. The replays in OP aren't really great representations (no offense meant) of how good it is to get a really early Raven to store up energy to showcase just how good PDDrone can be. Also the power of high DPS marines+banshees+tanks, when they are "protected" really shines. It is a very very efficient build too... you spend your money very solidly until mineral saturation.
It almost feels like if Protoss goes stalker or Immortal, they will be at a big disadvantage here. In my test matches last night I rolled the Protosses I came across, mid plat, etc. without even trying hard (was half asleep and made some mistakes). Immortals are supposed to be the bane of Terran, but with marines/banshees/unsieged tanks wailing away at them, they drop quick.
Safest bet for P must be charge zealots to HT, like people are saying.
Still the build is safe for Terran since you can swap to hellions easily. Auto-turrets are great meatshields for your marines/hellions, and they waste zealot charge very well.
Loving the Raven more and more.
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On May 06 2010 00:34 Blacklizard wrote:
It almost feels like if Protoss goes stalker or Immortal, they will be at a big disadvantage here. In my test matches last night I rolled the Protosses I came across, mid plat, etc. without even trying hard (was half asleep and made some mistakes). Immortals are supposed to be the bane of Terran, but with marines/banshees/unsieged tanks wailing away at them, they drop quick.
Safest bet for P must be charge zealots to HT, like people are saying.
Still the build is safe for Terran since you can swap to hellions easily. Auto-turrets are great meatshields for your marines/hellions, and they waste zealot charge very well.
Loving the Raven more and more.
Yea, this build functions simlarly to void ray opens for protoss. Throws the opponent way off the norm, makes them invest a lot in something you can just as easily counter. And yea, if the P isn't really on the ball and/or familiar with the open they generally tend to get rolled by it. They're either over-confident, confused, or just under-estimate hellions (i see this a lot), unsieged tank, and some of the other less common TvP units.
And yea, the raven is amazing.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2010 01:26 Grimmer20 wrote:http://bit.ly/bZHT40 - This was the closest I came, I did a 3 Warpgate / tech timing. I watched this replay. I'm ranked 2nd in Gold 1v1 as Terran so I have some good advice. In first 2/3 of game you blow all your units pushing a terran choke point with a wall up and tanks behind it. Think about this for a second, you're preventing half your units from attacking. You should have put down a 3rd expansion and sat your units in his expo so at the point of contact he will be just exiting his choke and you will have the greatest firing arc. Not to mention while hitting his unites while moving they will be partially dragged out in a line meaning you don't encounter the correct terran "ball" that he had set up in his base. The 3rd expo would have let you out macro the shit of him. Second, against his high amount of marines I think 2-3 colossi would be very beneficial. That guy never got stim or hp upgrade or medivacs. If he focuses your colossi with banshees so be it, but micro colossi back, exposing the banshees over all your void walkers and focus fire them down. Either way those colossi would mow down the marines or force him to suicide his air. I played toss in sc1 and what about the zealot drop on tanks from behind? Dropping 4 zealots on his tanks while engaging in the front with voids / colossi would decimate him. Or if you can manually have the zealots charge to the tanks do that. Just a few thoughts.
Void Walkers? I'm going to assume you're talking about stalkers. imo zealot bombs wouldn't work very well, because the t is focusing so much on marines. Counting on the t to be out of position will only work so long.
Also, starting off a post claiming to be awesome because you're in gold doesn't help
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To the OP, i would advise just going mass talkers and rushing blink. Stalkers will eat rines with a little micro and you can just blink past the wall and into his base. If he is wasting that much money and time on tech you should be able to crank out a good amount of stalkers before he can get a sizable force.
Edit, depending on timing though this could be a gamble as stalkers are the most affected by the ravens..
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I've started playing this build after reading this thread and haven't lost a single TvP since. I'm sure protoss will find an answer eventually, but for now it really does magic.
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I am still a newbie that is in bronze and maybe what I am going to say is gonna look stupid, but for me the scouting is not a problem - for 100/100 (illusion research) I get as many phoenixes to scout, as I want. But that's just my 2 cents on scouting. Maybe it's just because I am in bronze and 100/100 doesn't make a big difference, but oh well.
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Yeah, I played one where the guy had basically double my income from time 5 minutes with a hidden FE. Still rolled him. Killed his whole army (we were about equal on army costs), and I lost like 5 units. Yeah, wow.
I think if P catches on and tries to meet me closer to my bad, I'm going to start opting for 1 medivac full of marines or hellions to drop his mineral line. Or hell actually, I could just send two of the banshees.
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Just watched two korean replays of flash (probably fake, still played well and uber high apm) and he used the same unit combo - marines, tanks, banshees and raven. So it's definately playable even on the highest level.
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On May 06 2010 20:08 Hrypa wrote:
I've started playing this build after reading this thread and haven't lost a single TvP since. I'm sure protoss will find an answer eventually, but for now it really does magic.
Protoss players that blindly open with void ray are going to have trouble. I've seen this build three or four times now, and have only lost once as the protoss player. Once I see the marines being built, I do a robo-opening and build an observer just to make sure that the terran isn't doing something weird like an all-in marine rush. Once confirming that the terran is committing to the build, I take my natural and tech to chargelots and templar tech. This will trash the first marine-heavy push very easily. From there, take a second expansion and get robo-tech going. In each game, the terran replaced his marines with marauders. Go heavy on immortal/chargelots/templar with some stalker/sentry support. Eventually you'll want to transition out of immortals and into colossi when your third base is up and running and you can afford it. At this point, you'll have all of your tech unlocked and be in good shape. If you see the terran going banshees at any point, build a stargate and get a few phoenixes (3-4 should be plenty).
My only loss to a terran using the build came on incineration zone where the terrain is just totally unfriendly to protoss army movement. If I had teched straight to colossi I would have won. Without colossi, tanks and marauders absolutely ledge-raped my army.
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Holy shit,
I was definately doubting this but I said what the hell, il give it a try
This build owns, abolsutely brilliant to use ravens DPD to cover your high dps units asses. Quick reactor rines and starport with turrets can hold the voids off as well. Ive been pushing out once I get about 14 rines 2 ravens and 3 tanks and a medivac or two. If toss has stalker heavy army I will demolish him. If they have coli or HT I just keep em at bay while i get my expo. Tanks as always provide the map control I need. Once expand is up I add rauders and banshees to the mix and it becomes very hard for the toss to stop me.
Im not saying im now 10-0 to toss with this build, i have had some close games that he ended up winning, but IMO this is a great advancement in the TvP meta game.
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Just watched two korean replays of flash (probably fake, still played well and uber high apm) and he used the same unit combo - marines, tanks, banshees and raven. So it's definately playable even on the highest level.
links please?
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On May 07 2010 04:32 XXXSmOke wrote:
about 14 rines 2 ravens and 3 tanks and a medivac or two.
Im not saying im now 10-0 to toss with this build, i have had some close games that he ended up winning, but IMO this is a great advancement in the TvP meta game.
I think 1 raven would be fine, replace the second with a banshee or 2.
Also I wouldn't really call it an advancement in meta game....
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EPT
