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On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine.
AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy.
Can we please stop acting like hT are a cure-all for out late-game problems? If you mass the hell out of HT, you're massing a bunch of light armor units who are totally dependant on energy to do any damage at all.
PS. No, you cannot feedback a point defense drone, but yes, you can feedback a raven. Problem is, the raven is an air unit that is free to sit well out of harm's way once he drops his dones, and once he has ditched his energy on drones, he doesn't fear feedback anyhow. Your scenario with HT requires instantaneous feedbacks on a large number of targets. That simply isn't realistic in the present build. You won't feedback a majority of his ghosts and all of his ravens before your army has been descimated.
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On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy.
This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts.
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On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts.
Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine."
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On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine."
Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised?
Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't.
In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst.
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I think terrans just don't get enough ghosts when they see protoss heavily relying on templar tech to deal with both ravens, and MnM.
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On May 04 2010 04:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine." Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised? Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't. In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst.
You've cited no replays or vods yourself and you're making an inverse assumption to my logic that aoe > not aoe. Please provide evidence to the contrary. PvT is a muck of rush tactics, proxy marauder, fast void ray, 4gate allin, 3gate robo allin, etc. I haven't seen a shred of macro play in this matchup to prove either of our points in ages.
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On May 04 2010 04:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:18 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine." Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised? Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't. In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst. You've cited no replays or vods yourself and you're making an inverse assumption to my logic that aoe > not aoe. Please provide evidence to the contrary. PvT is a muck of rush tactics, proxy marauder, fast void ray, 4gate allin, 3gate robo allin, etc. I haven't seen a shred of macro play in this matchup to prove either of our points in ages.
I'm too lazy to find more, but here's a great example from the Triple-Strike from last night. Fast-forward to the 1hr 17m mark to the PvT on lost temple. It's a great macro game that features some nice HT vs Ghost dueling towards the end.
http://www.livestream.com/iccup/video?clipId=pla_f09d6eec-d7a0-4b7f-8cd5-cb70e2e01662
So, are you going to produce something to buttress your theory-crafting?
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I just played against this yesterday. I was going to go dts but he scouted my twilight council so I just decided to go mass stalker + blink. I abused the rock glitch on Incineration Zone and got some kills. When he pushed out though, I had no way to stop it.
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I tried it and it works quite well.
I think it's better to get a banshee before the raven because you can use it to get some scouting informations, a few probe kills, and maybe make the protoss overreact.
You can have a tank faster aswell like that and be safe against aggressive stalkers rush.
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On May 04 2010 05:24 ganil wrote:
I tried it and it works quite well.
I think it's better to get a banshee before the raven because you can use it to get some scouting informations, a few probe kills, and maybe make the protoss overreact.
You can have a tank faster aswell like that and be safe against aggressive stalkers rush.
The point of the build is that it provides a flexible opening for terrans. Terrans will have a lot of options available depending upon what the toss is doing. You definitely do not want to just automatically tech and mass to the Raven/tank/marine push (maybe a banshee or two) that is employed in OP's replays.
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On May 04 2010 04:48 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:18 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine." Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised? Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't. In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst. You've cited no replays or vods yourself and you're making an inverse assumption to my logic that aoe > not aoe. Please provide evidence to the contrary. PvT is a muck of rush tactics, proxy marauder, fast void ray, 4gate allin, 3gate robo allin, etc. I haven't seen a shred of macro play in this matchup to prove either of our points in ages. I'm too lazy to find more, but here's a great example from the Triple-Strike from last night. Fast-forward to the 1hr 17m mark to the PvT on lost temple. It's a great macro game that features some nice HT vs Ghost dueling towards the end. http://www.livestream.com/iccup/video?clipId=pla_f09d6eec-d7a0-4b7f-8cd5-cb70e2e01662So, are you going to produce something to buttress your theory-crafting?
Thors getting nuked by feedback is supposed to prove what? It's a macro game but it does no feature any ghost/ht "dueling." The only battle that included a significant number of ghosts was a roll by the toss due to void rays, zeals > marauders and a couple thors.
Or were you not talking about Paramore v Moo?
After trawling sc2rc, 4pooled, and a few other replay sites, i'm not able to come up with a single PvT/TvP over 30 mins that is a worthy replay consisting of two skilled opponents. About 95% of the replays are sub 10min in length, and the outliers are generally 20-25mins.
So, i'm hoping you can supply some of your macro long-game replays, because there clearly aren't many toss out there who are even trying to play longer games, much less win them.
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On May 04 2010 05:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:48 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:18 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine." Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised? Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't. In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst. You've cited no replays or vods yourself and you're making an inverse assumption to my logic that aoe > not aoe. Please provide evidence to the contrary. PvT is a muck of rush tactics, proxy marauder, fast void ray, 4gate allin, 3gate robo allin, etc. I haven't seen a shred of macro play in this matchup to prove either of our points in ages. I'm too lazy to find more, but here's a great example from the Triple-Strike from last night. Fast-forward to the 1hr 17m mark to the PvT on lost temple. It's a great macro game that features some nice HT vs Ghost dueling towards the end. http://www.livestream.com/iccup/video?clipId=pla_f09d6eec-d7a0-4b7f-8cd5-cb70e2e01662So, are you going to produce something to buttress your theory-crafting? Thors getting nuked by feedback is supposed to prove what? It's a macro game but it does no feature any ghost/ht "dueling." The only battle that included a significant number of ghosts was a roll by the toss due to void rays, zeals > marauders and a couple thors. Or were you not talking about Paramore v Moo? After trawling sc2rc, 4pooled, and a few other replay sites, i'm not able to come up with a single PvT/TvP over 30 mins that is a worthy replay consisting of two skilled opponents. About 95% of the replays are sub 10min in length, and the outliers are generally 20-25mins. So, i'm hoping you can supply some of your macro long-game replays, because there clearly aren't many toss out there who are even trying to play longer games, much less win them.
I give up. You clearly did not watch the whole game. If you want to insist that HT's can't deal with ghosts and that toss late game can't compete with terran late game, go ahead. Troll away.
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On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
PS. No, you cannot feedback a point defense drone
Are you sure you can't? Just tested it, and it worked (Casting Feedback on a PDD destroys it)
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On May 04 2010 05:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:48 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:18 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote:
Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine." Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised? Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't. In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst. You've cited no replays or vods yourself and you're making an inverse assumption to my logic that aoe > not aoe. Please provide evidence to the contrary. PvT is a muck of rush tactics, proxy marauder, fast void ray, 4gate allin, 3gate robo allin, etc. I haven't seen a shred of macro play in this matchup to prove either of our points in ages. I'm too lazy to find more, but here's a great example from the Triple-Strike from last night. Fast-forward to the 1hr 17m mark to the PvT on lost temple. It's a great macro game that features some nice HT vs Ghost dueling towards the end. http://www.livestream.com/iccup/video?clipId=pla_f09d6eec-d7a0-4b7f-8cd5-cb70e2e01662So, are you going to produce something to buttress your theory-crafting? Thors getting nuked by feedback is supposed to prove what? It's a macro game but it does no feature any ghost/ht "dueling." The only battle that included a significant number of ghosts was a roll by the toss due to void rays, zeals > marauders and a couple thors. Or were you not talking about Paramore v Moo? After trawling sc2rc, 4pooled, and a few other replay sites, i'm not able to come up with a single PvT/TvP over 30 mins that is a worthy replay consisting of two skilled opponents. About 95% of the replays are sub 10min in length, and the outliers are generally 20-25mins. So, i'm hoping you can supply some of your macro long-game replays, because there clearly aren't many toss out there who are even trying to play longer games, much less win them.
As intelligent as you likely think you sound, there are volumes of good players who can tell you that HT are an extremely effective counter to Ghosts. Cloak is expensive and pointless against a competent Protoss player, Ghosts being invisible is irrelevant entirely. No one goes around without Observers with an army (no one good, at least). The range is a non issue because the HT can walk out ahead and kill the Ghosts. Since Ghosts MUST neutralize HT/Immortal BEFORE the battle starts, their longer range and AOE is nullified when you're talking about small numbers of Ghost/HT walking up ahead of armies and dueling. At best you will EMP the HT before it uses Feedback, but that's a 1-1 trade.
Unlike EMP, Storm can be spammed through out the battle and be effective, so HT can also just be brought in after a battle is initiated and EMP have been spent on other units. Ghosts are also effectively useless in late game situations once they've used EMPs, HT can make Archons which serve as huge meat shields and deal extra damage vs bio. So in the worst case the HT feedback the ghosts, storm, then become Archons. Best case, I EMP them individually before the battle, they run off and become Archons, and I'm no better off because P can afford to make far more HT than I can make Ghosts.
Trying to reduce it to "AOE > non AOE" is pointless, there's no value to the argument, and it proves nothing in this debate.
The real issue is not whether or not HT do currently counter Ghosts (which they do QUITE well) - the issue is should Blizzard keep giving units the ability to beat the one unit that counters it? The one unit Terran can use to neutralize masses of HT is the Ghost. But HTs counter the Ghost. It's a poor design choice. Feedback belongs on Archons in my opinion. Just like Void Rays should get slaughtered by Marines and Hydras, rather than counter Marines and Hydras and any other unit. It's poor design and I hope it gets changed.
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On May 04 2010 06:56 pat965 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
PS. No, you cannot feedback a point defense drone Are you sure you can't? Just tested it, and it worked (Casting Feedback on a PDD destroys it)
You can feedback PDDs.
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u realize this guy has 25 apm?
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On May 04 2010 06:37 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 05:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:48 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:18 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
[quote]
Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine." Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised? Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't. In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst. You've cited no replays or vods yourself and you're making an inverse assumption to my logic that aoe > not aoe. Please provide evidence to the contrary. PvT is a muck of rush tactics, proxy marauder, fast void ray, 4gate allin, 3gate robo allin, etc. I haven't seen a shred of macro play in this matchup to prove either of our points in ages. I'm too lazy to find more, but here's a great example from the Triple-Strike from last night. Fast-forward to the 1hr 17m mark to the PvT on lost temple. It's a great macro game that features some nice HT vs Ghost dueling towards the end. http://www.livestream.com/iccup/video?clipId=pla_f09d6eec-d7a0-4b7f-8cd5-cb70e2e01662So, are you going to produce something to buttress your theory-crafting? Thors getting nuked by feedback is supposed to prove what? It's a macro game but it does no feature any ghost/ht "dueling." The only battle that included a significant number of ghosts was a roll by the toss due to void rays, zeals > marauders and a couple thors. Or were you not talking about Paramore v Moo? After trawling sc2rc, 4pooled, and a few other replay sites, i'm not able to come up with a single PvT/TvP over 30 mins that is a worthy replay consisting of two skilled opponents. About 95% of the replays are sub 10min in length, and the outliers are generally 20-25mins. So, i'm hoping you can supply some of your macro long-game replays, because there clearly aren't many toss out there who are even trying to play longer games, much less win them. I give up. You clearly did not watch the whole game. If you want to insist that HT's can't deal with ghosts and that toss late game can't compete with terran late game, go ahead. Troll away.
I watched the VOD..Moo (Terran) didn't even make that many ghosts in the end when Protoss had like 15 HTs..there was like one ghost...
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haha this is the combo I've been using in TvP for over 2 weeks now, saw it used on korean server by some top platinum players ^^
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On May 04 2010 07:30 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 05:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:48 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:18 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:04 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 04:03 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 04:00 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:On May 04 2010 03:44 xDaunt wrote:On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote:
[quote]
Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. AoE emp vs. single target feedback. Range 10 emp vs. rand 9 feedback. Invisible ghost that can deal damage vs. visible HT who can do nothing but merge into a free emp kill after he has expended his energy. This is theorycrafting at its worst. In practice, HTs do just fine against ghosts. Thank you for conceding the argument? I fail to see how you proved anything by retorting with "wrong, they're fine." Are you joking? I've been saying throughout this thread that I haven't had trouble with ghosts when I have HT's. In fact, to my knowledge, no top protoss player has complained about them. Moreover, do you ever watch streams of tournies or other VODs with top protoss players? Guess what they do against ghosts? That's right, they feedback them with HTs. Surprised? Hey, I have a great idea: go look at the "PvT Ghost EMP thread" in which you have been posting. Do you see any posts from top protoss players complaining about EMP there? I certainly don't. In rebutting all of this, you haven't cited anything other than mathematical stats of the individual skills. As I said, that is theory-crafting at its worst. You've cited no replays or vods yourself and you're making an inverse assumption to my logic that aoe > not aoe. Please provide evidence to the contrary. PvT is a muck of rush tactics, proxy marauder, fast void ray, 4gate allin, 3gate robo allin, etc. I haven't seen a shred of macro play in this matchup to prove either of our points in ages. I'm too lazy to find more, but here's a great example from the Triple-Strike from last night. Fast-forward to the 1hr 17m mark to the PvT on lost temple. It's a great macro game that features some nice HT vs Ghost dueling towards the end. http://www.livestream.com/iccup/video?clipId=pla_f09d6eec-d7a0-4b7f-8cd5-cb70e2e01662So, are you going to produce something to buttress your theory-crafting? Thors getting nuked by feedback is supposed to prove what? It's a macro game but it does no feature any ghost/ht "dueling." The only battle that included a significant number of ghosts was a roll by the toss due to void rays, zeals > marauders and a couple thors. Or were you not talking about Paramore v Moo? After trawling sc2rc, 4pooled, and a few other replay sites, i'm not able to come up with a single PvT/TvP over 30 mins that is a worthy replay consisting of two skilled opponents. About 95% of the replays are sub 10min in length, and the outliers are generally 20-25mins. So, i'm hoping you can supply some of your macro long-game replays, because there clearly aren't many toss out there who are even trying to play longer games, much less win them. As intelligent as you likely think you sound, there are volumes of good players who can tell you that HT are an extremely effective counter to Ghosts. Cloak is expensive and pointless against a competent Protoss player, Ghosts being invisible is irrelevant entirely. No one goes around without Observers with an army (no one good, at least). The range is a non issue because the HT can walk out ahead and kill the Ghosts. Since Ghosts MUST neutralize HT/Immortal BEFORE the battle starts, their longer range and AOE is nullified when you're talking about small numbers of Ghost/HT walking up ahead of armies and dueling. At best you will EMP the HT before it uses Feedback, but that's a 1-1 trade.
Except it's not a 1 to 1 trade, as emp will hit more than one target. Seriously, you can split your units into a half dozen control groups, but there is only so much room to move in a given space. You don't just loose 1 ht when an emp goes off.And let not play the "competent toss use obs to detect ghosts," story, we've been down that road and we understand that - espcially in this build - a raven is going to be there and there will not be ghost observers sitting out just to detect ghosts without being destroyed.
Unlike EMP, Storm can be spammed through out the battle and be effective, so HT can also just be brought in after a battle is initiated and EMP have been spent on other units. Ghosts are also effectively useless in late game situations once they've used EMPs, HT can make Archons which serve as huge meat shields and deal extra damage vs bio. So in the worst case the HT feedback the ghosts, storm, then become Archons. Best case, I EMP them individually before the battle, they run off and become Archons, and I'm no better off because P can afford to make far more HT than I can make Ghosts.
Trying to reduce it to "AOE > non AOE" is pointless, there's no value to the argument, and it proves nothing in this debate.
EMP can't be spammed? Really now, because i've heard you tell numerous tales about "spammed" force-field, which is targeted the same way as emp. How can P afford to make far more HT? They're just as useless without energy as ghosts (even more so, really), and they're equally gas heavy. You aren't going to morph archons (10 hp after their shields are nuked off) against a terran with ghosts, that's utter nonsense. It's not being reduced to "this one is aoe, this one isn't," there is clearly more to it than that. A comparison of the two units, of the two armies, of their respective roles, all of it is relavent. Feel free to stop trying to asassinate the character of the argument by over-simplifying it.
The real issue is not whether or not HT do currently counter Ghosts (which they do QUITE well) - the issue is should Blizzard keep giving units the ability to beat the one unit that counters it? The one unit Terran can use to neutralize masses of HT is the Ghost. But HTs counter the Ghost. It's a poor design choice. Feedback belongs on Archons in my opinion. Just like Void Rays should get slaughtered by Marines and Hydras, rather than counter Marines and Hydras and any other unit. It's poor design and I hope it gets changed.
I agree it's silly that HT and Ghosts are each other's counter-unit. I think it would be even more absurd that archons have it instead. Moving feedback even further down the tech tree (even if it is just a combination of two ht or dt) is not a good idea. It's just a reason to make archons in PvT.
I sympathise with you about void rays, I agree what they're currently doing to PvT is stupid, but that is a seperate issue. I'm concerned that when our cheese tactics are gone (and i'm fairly certain that we'll soon be rid of void ray as a viable open), we're going to be very handicapped in standard play vs. T because we simply haven't seen long macro games in PvT at all, and those that do run long are lop-sided as hell because of a crippling all-in from one side or the other. It's not just emp, not just ghosts, not just the fact archons are trash and ht are fairly weak compared to what we started the beta with, not just the fact our r3 air is god-awful by comparison to z and t, not just the overwhelming lack of diversity in our openings due to observers being out sole detectors, but a combination of these issues and others.
Protoss really doesn't have a lot going for it without a strong mid-game push. That's been the story of protoss since the beginning of the beta. Now that we're FIANLLY starting to move toward longer and more complete games in other matchups, pvt and pvz are STILL full of all-in push tactics. I'm not saying every other mu has incredibly long and well-thought out builds, but almost every pv* matchup is very short and heated. I don't think that's a coincidence.
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Lol all this talk about HT's
I think the main thing is that a protoss opening including HT's is extremely tech heavy and doesn't apply enough pressure to be considered a strong opening
Ht's are a much better midgame transition than an opener
I am more interested in a general counter to the marine/tank/raven push when it first comes out
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EPT
