EPTPvT - Nearly unbeatable unit combo? - Page 6
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 04 2010 01:03 Kyuki wrote: You dont get it, even if you cant hoover a Observer above the opponent when he moves out you can detect when he sieges with proper movement and general scouting (watchtower control etc) (Stalkers outrun anything that is Terran unstimmed) and simply outright crush it right there with a good blink. If the push dies, the game is over. What I don't get is how this P is getting fast obs and blink that early. Or how blink is going to "crush" a PDD. | ||
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Grimmer20
United States2 Posts
http://bit.ly/bZHT40 - This was the closest I came, I did a 3 Warpgate / tech timing. [/QUOTE] I watched this replay. I'm ranked 2nd in Gold 1v1 as Terran so I have some good advice. In first 2/3 of game you blow all your units pushing a terran choke point with a wall up and tanks behind it. Think about this for a second, you're preventing half your units from attacking. You should have put down a 3rd expansion and sat your units in his expo so at the point of contact he will be just exiting his choke and you will have the greatest firing arc. Not to mention while hitting his unites while moving they will be partially dragged out in a line meaning you don't encounter the correct terran "ball" that he had set up in his base. The 3rd expo would have let you out macro the shit of him. Second, against his high amount of marines I think 2-3 colossi would be very beneficial. That guy never got stim or hp upgrade or medivacs. If he focuses your colossi with banshees so be it, but micro colossi back, exposing the banshees over all your void walkers and focus fire them down. Either way those colossi would mow down the marines or force him to suicide his air. I played toss in sc1 and what about the zealot drop on tanks from behind? Dropping 4 zealots on his tanks while engaging in the front with voids / colossi would decimate him. Or if you can manually have the zealots charge to the tanks do that. Just a few thoughts. | ||
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newbcake
United States57 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 04 2010 01:27 newbcake wrote: I don't see how mass stalkers could lose to this. Keep harassing the shit out of him since he has no marauders. He has to use PDD when he tries to leave his base, then keep engaging him as he makes his way to your base. By the time he gets to your side of the map, he'll be out of PDD and out several marines as well. If you just let him waltz to your base with a 200 mana raven, yeah, of course you're in trouble. But I don't see this any different than letting a 200 mana infestor or 200 mana HT waltz to your base before engaging. What's to keep him from just pushing out far enough to shut down your harass and take an expo? You're only going to have a harder time winning as the game gets longer. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 04 2010 01:57 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: What's to keep him from just pushing out far enough to shut down your harass and take an expo? You're only going to have a harder time winning as the game gets longer. If the terran is teching up to raven's (and I see him doing it with my obs), then I will already have expanded and be ahead economically. I'm more than happy to let him play catch-up all game long. I strongly disagree with the proposition that protoss has a harder time beating a terran as the game drags on. Once protoss unlocks all of his tier 3 tech (particularly templar and colossi), he is in the driver's seat against terrans. I find that the trickiest part of PvT is weathering a terran timing attack that hits just before I get psi storm online. Once the AoE comes online, however, bio balls simply melt, especially marine-heavy bio balls. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 04 2010 02:10 xDaunt wrote: If the terran is teching up to raven's (and I see him doing it with my obs), then I will already have expanded and be ahead economically. I'm more than happy to let him play catch-up all game long. I strongly disagree with the proposition that protoss has a harder time beating a terran as the game drags on. Once protoss unlocks all of his tier 3 tech (particularly templar and colossi), he is in the driver's seat against terrans. I find that the trickiest part of PvT is weathering a terran timing attack that hits just before I get psi storm online. Once the AoE comes online, however, bio balls simply melt, especially marine-heavy bio balls. Uh.. I can tell you as a Platinum player for several months that it is most certainly true, our longer games vs. T are more often losses than shorter games. In point of fact, unless you are facing something newbish like a bio-ball @ 35 mins, you are going to be hard pressed to pull a win. No idea how you think the terran is going to play catch-up because he build a single starport with a tech lab either. | ||
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jamvng
Canada244 Posts
On May 04 2010 01:03 Kyuki wrote: You dont get it, even if you cant hoover a Observer above the opponent when he moves out you can detect when he sieges with proper movement and general scouting (watchtower control etc) (Stalkers outrun anything that is Terran unstimmed) and simply outright crush it right there with a good blink. If the push dies, the game is over. If Terran has a Raven with his army how are you goin to sneak an observer to see his army w/o it getting killed. And if you do, he'll know that you'll know and adjust. | ||
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Orcmaniac
Canada17 Posts
If the terran is teching up to raven's (and I see him doing it with my obs), then I will already have expanded and be ahead economically. I'm more than happy to let him play catch-up all game long. You are seriously underestimating how fast the 1st push will come. Ive played against toss who went like gate-nexus-whatever and he got crushed by this. If you expand you cannot also have obs blink and an army to delay me. Ill be on your front door before you know it. Tons of ppl are making up strategy on how they would crush the build but have you tested it ? again im sure this is beatable and the best way is probably to stall and mass expo and tech to templar but if you get too greedy or get cocky you will lose to it. Oh and I also beat someone who went mass stalker and tried to harrass using blink and he lost badly but I think he wasnt very good, he didnt try to delay me nearly enough. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
I'm planning to use this build all week and see what i can come up with. I'm not as comfortable with terran yet, but i'll at least get to guage the reaction of more protoss players than just practicing with a couple friends. | ||
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Kyuki
Sweden1867 Posts
On May 04 2010 01:09 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: What I don't get is how this P is getting fast obs and blink that early. Or how blink is going to "crush" a PDD. Who said you were going for obs? The claim here is that "I cant see what he is doing, I'm blind and getting demolished!" If you open with fast stalkers, pinch into the terran and see his tech pattern (which you certainly can do with fast stalkers) you can transition into a 2-3 gate, council into blink, 4-gate mass stalker and Punish him When he moves out. Do it when he sieges, he'll die. Not saying it doenst require skill, you need awesome timing. Just like in SC1 when T sieges. | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 04 2010 02:48 Kyuki wrote: Who said you were going for obs? The claim here is that "I cant see what he is doing, I'm blind and getting demolished!" If you open with fast stalkers, pinch into the terran and see his tech pattern (which you certainly can do with fast stalkers) you can transition into a 2-3 gate, council into blink, 4-gate mass stalker and Punish him When he moves out. Do it when he sieges, he'll die. Not saying it doenst require skill, you need awesome timing. Just like in SC1 when T sieges. Explain what you mean by "pinch into the terran and see his tech pattern." I have no idea what you're thinking is going to happen when some fast stalkers run into a bunch of marines and a tank or two at his choke. Do you really expect to push into his base at that point? You won't get any scouting info other than the fact he has marines and a tank, and unless you take advantage immidiately, he's free to change his army comp quickly, while you have to tech in order to do so. If you think there is a timing window, post a replay where you exploit it. I'm definitly not seeing any point in this build where early agression would be rewarded with a win. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 04 2010 02:40 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: It is beatable, but it forces the protoss to play a longer and more macro heavy games than he's used to. That's the primary strength of the build (related to how flexible it is). Not only are most toss unfamiliar with this playstyle, but I believe toss late-game to be pretty underwhelming in combatting an equally teched terran opponent. I think we won't really know how much this changes the matchup until more Terran are using it. I'm planning to use this build all week and see what i can come up with. I'm not as comfortable with terran yet, but i'll at least get to guage the reaction of more protoss players than just practicing with a couple friends. Isn't this what I've been saying all along? If you see the terran teching heavily, take an expo, and abuse your resource advantage. And again, I really don't see how protoss late game is underwhelming by any stretch of the imagination. The only late game terran units that a protoss player has difficulty killing are battlecruisers (and no, void rays are not the answer). Everything else, particularly terran ground armies, are very beatable by protoss. | ||
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 04 2010 03:08 xDaunt wrote: Isn't this what I've been saying all along? If you see the terran teching heavily, take an expo, and abuse your resource advantage. And again, I really don't see how protoss late game is underwhelming by any stretch of the imagination. The only late game terran units that a protoss player has difficulty killing are battlecruisers (and no, void rays are not the answer). Everything else, particularly terran ground armies, are very beatable by protoss. Then you should play more macro games against terran. You will be suprised at the results. It changes the matchup significantly when the game isn't over at the 10 min mark. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 04 2010 03:19 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Then you should play more macro games against terran. You will be suprised at the results. It changes the matchup significantly when the game isn't over at the 10 min mark. Dude, are you not reading what I'm saying? Let me make the obvious clear for you: when I am talking about late game terran against late game protoss, I necessarily am talking about a macro-oriented game. To make things even more clear, let me just say that almost all of my PvT's are macro-oriented. I don't bother with cute timing pushes against terrans because I don't like hitting terran hard-points. I'd rather engage the terran in the open, so I take expansions and establish map control instead of attacking into his main or a hardened natural. This is what I did in SC1 and this still what I do in SC2, even though it really isn't as necessary. Nevertheless, it's the safe play. From my experience as a platinum player, gateway units, when supplemented with immortals, colossi, and high templar, are perfectly capable of crushing late game terran armies. The only late game terran tech that gives me trouble is battlecruisers. However, most terrans do not build battlecruisers and stick to the ground instead. Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? | ||
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WorkersOfTheWorld
United States619 Posts
On May 04 2010 03:28 xDaunt wrote: Now, please elaborate on what exactly makes late-game protoss tech weak against late-game terran tech? Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. | ||
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CowGoMoo
United States428 Posts
Try Obs into Charge/HTs and robo for Warp Prisms/harass later on instead of the usual Immo/Col tech. More Zeals less Stalkers. Stalkers are pretty bad against most ground units in a direct fight, and are atrocious if he has PDs. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 04 2010 03:35 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Effective EMP and PDD use shuts down protoss late game. Addin battle cruisers is a nail in the coffin. Hardened shield becomes increasingly weaker as the game drags on. Emp becomes stronger due to the fact there is limited space to spread units out. PDD becomes stronger is the toss shifts toward a stalker heavy build to compensate for air units. Once enough tanks, banshees, or marauders take to the feild, there is little to be done with a protoss ground army. We obviously cannot take to the air since vikings effectively counter every air unit we produce except pre-charged void-rays, and that isn't something you can rely on. As CGM just said: high templar. Yeah, you need to watch for invisible ghosts EMP'ing you, but that's what observers are for. Just pay attention to your army and you'll be fine. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
You can never have too many HTs in PvT. | ||
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