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Interesting strategy... but what the hell kind of build is that?
11 CC
11 rax
11 refinery
11 refinery
11 factory
Really? I don't see how you would have held off ANY sort of protoss aggression, especially considering you didn't scout until 8 minutes into the game!
Your first fighting unit isn't out until 5 minutes in o.o;
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On April 23 2010 01:37 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2010 16:27 Bibdy wrote:
A Banshee can do 24 damage every 1.25 seconds, which is 19.2 DPS. A Stalker does 14 damage every 1.44 seconds, which is 9.7 DPS. A Banshee, costing a mere 150/100 can take on twice its number in Stalkers for crying out loud. They are SOO punishing against a Protoss who isn't absolutely massing Stalkers like a damn lunatic. Nevermind cloaking and instagibbing Observers with Vikings and COMSAT. Once they get Cloak, you might as well just give up.
So, Terrans, exploit that while you can. I'm pretty sure it won't last long. Can you be any more of a moron? Let's forget that stalkers cost 1/2 the gas, have 160 hp and are T1.5. A T3 banshee can barely take on one stalker 1on1 even without sentry sheild. It's completely obvious that Stalker/sentry >> Banshee for cost in a straight fight.
You say stalkers cost half the gas then add in that they require a 100 gas unit to be effective. You also imply that the terran is going banshee rush only, not banshee harass/support for the main army, which is hellion/mara. Stop being an idiot please those sentries are gonna get toasted by a 100 min unit.
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Sentries protect your entire force with guardian sheilds and FF while also adding very good dps of their own, obviously. What was your point there?
I never "imply" anything about giong banshee only, or not going banshee only. I was merely responding to a statement that Banshees are cost effective against protoss ground-to-air and that one banshee can somehow magically beat 2 stalkers.
Please read the entire post before making random attacks against things that weren't even at issue.
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Actually, I made a mistake. Stalkers only do 6.94 DPS (10 damage every 1.44 seconds) to Banshees, since they're light.
A unit doing 19.2 DPS to 320 HP can almost beat two units doing 6.94 DPS to 140 hp.
When the first Stalker dies, the Banshee is at 110-120 health. The other Stalker will be at around half health when the Banshee finally dies.
Here's the math:
Time for 1 Banshee to kill 1 Stalker: 160/19.2 = 8.333 seconds
Damage done by 2 Stalkers in 8.333 seconds = 8.333 * 6.92 * 2 = 115.3 (rounded to 110 or 120 damage)
Time for last Stalker to kill Banshee (worst case scenario: 30 health left): 3 * 1.44 = 4.32 seconds
Damage done by Banshee in 4.32 seconds = 19.2 * 4.32 = 82.94
So the Stalker will be at around half health.
So compare 250 minerals, 100 gas and 4 food versus 150 minerals, 100 gas and 3 food.
Then consider that multiple Banshees fly around in a big wad, making it incredibly painful to focus-fire them and enter the fight simultaneously, as opposed to defending Stalkers running in one at a time (besides Blink).
The damn things are insanely powerful for their cost, and when Protoss can't rely on any of their air units for support in battle, when they gather up a decent army, complete with Banshees, you basically have to hope that your Terran opponent isn't smart enough to focus-fire all your Stalkers down with Stimmed Marauders and Banshees.
So yeah, all in all, I still think Banshees are stupidly powerful at harassment, ending the game instantly if a Protoss gets all of his Observers sniped by COMSAT and simple killing power.
Calling me a moron isn't really going to change any of that.
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Doing the calculations by dps instead of number of shots is not very accurate.
You forgot that stalkers have 1 armor which decreases banshee attacks by 2 damage on the hp portion.
It takes banshees 7-8 shots to kill a stalker. In that time, the 2 stalkers would have each shot 6 times dealing 120 damage.
The remaining stalker would kill the banshee in 2 more shots. The banshee would have done 48 damage to the stalker sheild before it dies.
As a side note, for ground-to-air, Sentries and stalkers go together like Bonnie and Clyde. No sane person would take sentries along with their stalkers. Banshees are not effective against stalker/sentry of equal minera/gas cost.
When you say effective for cost, you also MUST factor in the tech cost (small effect), production building costs (moderate effect), and build speed (large effect).
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There's nothing wrong with checking DPS to verify the timings. It basically came out to the same conclusion, because you have to round the values up/down depending on the potential number of shots. How successful the second Stalker is simply depends on whether the Banshee ends up at 20 or 30 health when the first Stalker dies, which is dependent on whether or not they run head-first at one another, or the Banshee sneaks up and gets the first shot off.
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Way to much theory craft guys.. . Banshee mobility plus FF=gg Stalker. Not to mention the point of the banshees is to contain and kill what you can not run in and hope for the best.
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sounds pretty sick, will try at 1700 plat. hope it works
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Sweden320 Posts
yeah..let's nerf the banshees so that terrans got nothing left to offer in tvp so that Bibdy can start winnig pvt again, (as it wasnt easy already)
Let's compare 2 units to eachother without thinking of the big context here, that's a real nice logic right there isn't it? sigh!
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You just got two big changes to help you with Immortal pushes. Stop being a baby.
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Sweden320 Posts
2 is probably more than enough so I dont see the issue. Do you think ur just gonna get a way with a powerful immortal rush and then being able to repel an incoming banshee rush?that would make the game very one sided and toss too strong. Tell me how is terran supposed to make a good push without getting completly destroyed and also being able to repel your next tier unit. you have to see things in the BIG context
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I don't expect that. I do expect to be able to halt a Banshee rush or harassment when I spot it in advance, without much difficulty. But, when they just mass the things, get Cloak, a couple of Vikings, pop COMSAT every time the Banshees get fired upon (obviously they have to save COMSAT energy for this to work) and the Vikings instagib the Observer, I think Terrans have a little too much of an easy time landing a definite hammerblow, game-ending strike when they go Banshees against Protoss.
Its not like I can chase after those Banshees with Stalkers and Sentries and whittle down his numbers, really punishing him for his Tech choice. He just has to harass while he turns them into a critical mass ball. Much the same as a Zerg going Mutas.
Apparently I'm supposed to use my air units to counter these strats, and inflict casualties without having to wait for him to come to me, but there's a huge danger in getting too many Void Rays/Phoenixes and getting raped by a ground army...exactly the same with Zerg going Mutas, too.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, buff the godamn Phoenix.
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On April 21 2010 18:31 link0 wrote:
And what if they make all stalkers and immortals like toss usually does?
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On April 23 2010 09:03 Bibdy wrote:
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, buff the godamn Phoenix.
Actually i think the VR is the worst for the cost, build time, and effective use vs. units. That being said, I dislike all of our air units.
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Phoenixes do not need any kind of buffing what-so-ever in damage/hp unless they reduce speed in compensation. You can't have it all.
The key to easily stomping Terran air in a army vs army battle is to target banshees with your phoneix while ignoring the vikings. Phoenix cost the same as banshees, but you will kill banshees MUCH faster than vikings will kill your phoenixes.
If you do this, Terran air heavy builds will be completely stomped unless you do something stupid like only make one observer after scouting such a build.
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Was just thinking a Void Ray would be a good counter to the Banshee. They don't do a ton of damage to them, but they can't fight back, and since you could fairly easily rape the Vikings you could get air dominance pretty easy.
Then, it turns out, Void Rays have a speed of 2.25 and Banshees 2.75, so you won't be able to inflict actual casualties if they're harasssing without spending a ton of gas on the speed upgrade.
Stupid Protoss air units.
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I do agree that protoss air is sucky. However try a few cannons on your line with more than 1 observer. Some static D will go a long way as the terran has invested a significant amount of gas and mins to do a dual port with the cloack upgrade.
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VRs are sucky, but phoenix are quite good for cost.
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On April 23 2010 10:13 link0 wrote:
Phoenixes do not need any kind of buffing what-so-ever in damage/hp unless they reduce speed in compensation. You can't have it all.
The key to easily stomping Terran air in a army vs army battle is to target banshees with your phoneix while ignoring the vikings. Phoenix cost the same as banshees, but you will kill banshees MUCH faster than vikings will kill your phoenixes.
If you do this, Terran air heavy builds will be completely stomped unless you do something stupid like only make one observer after scouting such a build.
I just want something I can use to get rid of Banshee and Muta harassment without shouting to my opponent from the rafters "Hey! I've got a crappy anti-ground army! Come kick my ass, please!", or "This giant wad of Stalkers looks very tasty to a Stimmed Marauder ball, doesn't it?"
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How does he have a stimmed marauder ball when he was going mass banshees? And if he didn't go mass banshees, why did you go mass stalker/sentry?
If the terran invests into 2 starports with tech labs, the smart toss would counter with 1-2 stargates. It's just the sensible thing to do.
Unlike toss, terran doesn't have a easy and economical way to constantly monitor enemy tech and unit composition.
Terran just has the boring overpowered marauder to spam to equalize all its disadvantages.
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EPT
