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Ok Terrans, this might shock you but the counter to the dreaded protoss immortal push is mass Hellion with rauder support.
Try it.
Get 1 Rax pumping rauders, you dont really need stim or shells.
And then get two factories one tech lab and one reactor. Get the Hellion flame upgrade as fast as you can. pump hellions like no tomorrow.
3 to 1 Hellion to rauder.
The hellions do two things, block for your rauders and also can zip past the protoss army and hit their probes.
dont waste your minerals on marines, they are too underpowered at the moment. Just focus on hellions.
And btw, hellion is LIGHT armor so protoss does not have a unit that does extra damage to it.
You might have problems with void rays, but thats not what this is designed to counter.
have fun and get back to winning.
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Gonna try it next TvP. I think you also need a starport w/reactor on the way (after the first clash) to counter Colossi (and possibly Void Rays, but that is a bit more of a tech switch for P).
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phoenixes deal bonus to light!!! gogo graviton
yea that looks like its nice for owning zealots and sentries in a hurry. never realized those guys cost no gas and can make use of the reactor. stalker/immortal would be much tougher to handle.
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One of the games your opponent went ridiculously light on gateway units, I think his push had 3 immortals, 1 sentry, 2 zealots and 1 stalker which just got vaporized by your far superior unit count as there was nothing to tank for the immortals to do their damage. The stalker/immortal push surprised me alot with how well you did. Regardless this definitely seems to have potential against immortal openings seeing as your forces destroyed the toss' with around equal supply, but man, what's with the 10CC/orbital *IN BASE* build lol? Opponents don't even scout ~_~. Leads me to believe this isn't played at a very high level if you're getting away with that.
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I have to say this strat is far too risky if ur opponent is skillful with scouting
but worth to try, cuz many times i see people just push with immortals when vs. terran
Hellion is much cheaper than Immortal, hellion cost no gas
and with some mirco, cross FIRE lol
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On April 21 2010 18:03 Saintmek wrote:
I have to say this strat is far too risky if ur opponent is skillful with scouting
but worth to try, cuz many times i see people just push with immortals when vs. terran
Hellion is much cheaper than Immortal, hellion cost no gas
and with some mirco, cross FIRE lol
Both Zealot and Sentry are light units and only the Stalker and Colossus remain as alternatives on the "Gate-Robo" tech trees. Hellions sound like a really decent alternative, but they do need room to outmaneuver the Protoss army. Thus it might not work on some maps while being awesome on others.
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On April 21 2010 18:12 Rabiator wrote:
Both Zealot and Sentry are light units and only the Stalker and Colossus remain as alternatives on the "Gate-Robo" tech trees. Hellions sound like a really decent alternative, but they do need room to outmaneuver the Protoss army. Thus it might not work on some maps while being awesome on others.
agreed
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And what if they make all stalkers and immortals like toss usually does?
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A faster +1 upgrade would be nice though .. I think I will try that. Lets see if I can get a timing
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On April 21 2010 18:31 link0 wrote:
And what if they make all stalkers and immortals like toss usually does?
Thor and Marauders. With the Thor you can literally kill an immortal with one click. The cannon thingy is sooo powerful, you can't even micro your immortals back, because the cannon stuns them for the entire time.
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If you watch the reps, he did beat someone with immortal/stalker pretty handily with this unit composition, though the player was quite bad, the armies were pretty close in supply. Even without their +damage bonus it seems like hellions do pretty good damage to a clumped up stalker/immortal force when there is a decent mass of them.
Also, as the OP noted - Stalkers and Immortals get no damage bonus against Hellions, so it goes both ways. Hellions actually don't get a damage penalty against immortal shields since they only hit for 8. They cost no gas, so chances are you'll also be ahead of the protoss in upgrades since you'll have alot left over to spend. I can't wait to try this tommorow. Will probably add in some ghosts myself though.
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Wouldn't marines be better then? 2 marines cost the same as a hellion and have the same HP but more than 2x the dps (without stim) against armored units. Marines also benefit from the Stim and +1 infantry attack that you mainly get for marauders.
They are both about equally crappy against sentry guardian shield as well.
Hellions build way faster than marines (for cost), but from a much more expensive building.
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marines have no splash, thats probably why hellions do well. They can clean up zealots quickly and then the splash does damage to a bunch of the range unit clump at a time.
Also building marines means less marauders.
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Ya that's exactly what I thought before reading this thread but i'm not sure now. Line damage coupled with being able to skip stim, combat shield, medivacs, and use ur rax for marauders, and the harrassment potential of a ball of hellions seems pretty strong, as I said though I havn't tried it myself and the only evidence we have of it being decent is one replay in the OP against a protoss who doesn't scout at all  i'm willing to give it a chance, however
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Seriously, why the CC as the first building?  Its really the first time I see this. Well, you get away with it... but isn't there a better opening for this build?
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I really like this idea.
The hellion is a great unit against early-game gateway units. It hard-counters 2 of the 3 early-game units that come out of the gateway. It's also probably the best unit to deal with HT (besides maybe ghost). And then you support with marauder to take care of the immortal.
Btw if toss starts adding stalkers, you WILL need to get shells for your marauders. And as someone said, if you see him going maily for stalker/immortal, then instead of hellion + igniter upgrade on your 1st fac, make armory + thor instead.
Also during mid-game you can make medivac and do hellion drops, or simply run into toss' nat with hellions & roast some probes
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The CC first opening is a terran eco build I have been playing around with for a month or so. Its a pretty safe build and gives you the extra mule very fast. Terran really does not have any early game pressure besides the fast reaper, so I figure might as well use free bunkers and the mule to my advantage. It gets you minerals really fast and also gives you room for a comsat to scout with if you need it. If they zealot rush you can just build reapers and pick them off as you can, or throw them in a bunker. This also can work against zerg too but you have to create a lingproof wall else speedlings will hurt you.
Against another Terran, its not so good because gas is what you need in TvT not minerals, unless you can float to another expo really quick, but its hard to defend two bases early on as T.
But to not get off topic, hellions work.
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oh and a good transition is to 2-3 port banshee, because you will have a ton of gas since you are not using it on stim, combat shields, siege mode, ghosts etc.
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thanks for sharing i'l def try it : D
Also, very newbie question but when do Terrans usually get second gas?
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Hellions are a underused unit against protoss. They unfortunately get countered by stalkers/immortals as well so it doesn't really help with countering that. Marauder hellion is very effective though, later on when you get more upgrades pure MMM gets better probably but a hellion/marauder opening is quite good.
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This would be viable only until protoss gets colossus. Range upgraded colossus will eat this up with stalker/immortal/force fields tanking for it. Nevertheless it would be a very strong against an opponent who gimped out on stalkers.
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On April 22 2010 06:00 Markwerf wrote:
Hellions are a underused unit against protoss. They unfortunately get countered by stalkers/immortals as well so it doesn't really help with countering that. Marauder hellion is very effective though, later on when you get more upgrades pure MMM gets better probably but a hellion/marauder opening is quite good.
I wouldn't say they get countered by Stalkers and Immortals. I'd say they take the hits, so your Marauders don't have to. Since its the only units the Protoss has to kill them, and his Zealots/Sentries are horribly exposed to them, it takes a while for Stalkers and Immortals to kill Hellions, giving your Marauders plenty of time to get their shots off.
I can imagine the strat working pretty good, but, if his army consists of nothing but Stalkers/Immortals, you're pretty much SOL. Of course, all you need at that point is more Marauders. You just need to scout and make sure you're dealing with a combined Light/Armoured force, or pure Armoured, and even then, if there's enough Light in there to warrant the Hellion upgrade, particularly.
If it were me, I'd probably make a Reactor at the Factory, keep building Marauders, scout him as he leaves his base and if you see a lot of Light in there, start pumping out Hellions like mad, otherwise keep pumping Marauders.
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This wouldn't work at all vs stalker/immortal. A decent P will target fire your marauders first. Hellions aren't zerglings, so they don't block very well at all. With only 1 rax bulding marauders, your army will have really low dps.
And no, you can't switch to tank/thor after seeing that your opponent is going stalker/immortal heavy. Thor's 250mm barrage does not counter immortals at all in an army vs army battle.
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On April 22 2010 04:37 Tiamat wrote:
oh and a good transition is to 2-3 port banshee, because you will have a ton of gas since you are not using it on stim, combat shields, siege mode, ghosts etc.
Not sure it's the best idea, concidering the counter to hellions is probably massing stalkers which are doing pretty good vs banshees two. Switching to siege tanks could be pretty cool though.
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On April 22 2010 06:50 Silent_Tao wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2010 04:37 Tiamat wrote:
oh and a good transition is to 2-3 port banshee, because you will have a ton of gas since you are not using it on stim, combat shields, siege mode, ghosts etc. Not sure it's the best idea, concidering the counter to hellions is probably massing stalkers which are doing pretty good vs banshees two. Switching to siege tanks could be pretty cool though.
Banshees can kill stalkers for cost, and of course a tank or two would not hurt.
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after tried a few game and this strat really works... but it is important to anti-scouting..
most P just blindly immortal push in PvT games, but hellions overrun them cuz its so cheap in mineral and cost no gas
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I think the demo needs to be against players who are not complete newbs for this demonstration to have any sort of credibility. As it was, the only thing this demonstrated was that if your opponents suck, you can get away with everything.
Neither of them made the slightest attempts to scout or adjust to what you were doing. I want to see what happens if a competent player sees this and goes ok, I'm just gona mass stalkers and immortals and have good army size and positioning.
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Go fast Banshees, with a bunker full of Marauders for defense and exploit Protoss' terrible GtA while you can. I'm convinced those things are getting nerfed sometime soon. Its absolutely, unequivocably godamned stupid how strong Banshees are against Protoss.
Its not even remotely conceivable to me why they'd turn the Wraith into a ground-stomping monstrosity. By the time I can get an Observer, or Hallucination into a Terran base, he can already have 2 Banshees almost finished. Then I somehow, miraculously, need to get sufficient air defenses to hold them off in both my base AND my ground force before I can go anywhere. Its just...unbelievable. Its worse than Mutas.
A Banshee can do 24 damage every 1.25 seconds, which is 19.2 DPS. A Stalker does 14 damage every 1.44 seconds, which is 9.7 DPS. A Banshee, costing a mere 150/100 can take on twice its number in Stalkers for crying out loud. They are SOO punishing against a Protoss who isn't absolutely massing Stalkers like a damn lunatic. Nevermind cloaking and instagibbing Observers with Vikings and COMSAT. Once they get Cloak, you might as well just give up.
So, Terrans, exploit that while you can. I'm pretty sure it won't last long.
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I'm going to try it out vs our Protoss and HasuObs, lets see how it works on high level.
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On April 22 2010 16:27 Bibdy wrote:
Go fast Banshees, with a bunker full of Marauders for defense and exploit Protoss' terrible GtA while you can. I'm convinced those things are getting nerfed sometime soon. Its absolutely, unequivocably godamned stupid how strong Banshees are against Protoss.
Its not even remotely conceivable to me why they'd turn the Wraith into a ground-stomping monstrosity. By the time I can get an Observer, or Hallucination into a Terran base, he can already have 2 Banshees almost finished. Then I somehow, miraculously, need to get sufficient air defenses to hold them off in both my base AND my ground force before I can go anywhere. Its just...unbelievable. Its worse than Mutas.
A Banshee can do 24 damage every 1.25 seconds, which is 19.2 DPS. A Stalker does 14 damage every 1.44 seconds, which is 9.7 DPS. A Banshee, costing a mere 150/100 can take on twice its number in Stalkers for crying out loud. They are SOO punishing against a Protoss who isn't absolutely massing Stalkers like a damn lunatic. Nevermind cloaking and instagibbing Observers with Vikings and COMSAT. Once they get Cloak, you might as well just give up.
So, Terrans, exploit that while you can. I'm pretty sure it won't last long.
The game is more complicated than that. The very fact that terran rushes for banshees and stay commited that means 1 base so a proper response from protoss would be to expand cannon stalkers defense. A banshee can beat stalkers alone and cannons alone but not both. And then from there protoss will just roll 1 base terran over with 50 stalkers from 2 bases.
And regarding to OP hellion marauder is very sweet, but rather than huge balls clashing, I can see protoss use stalkers and little bit of micro and pull back to snipe hellions and not take fire from marauders. Sounds like fun though! Immortal/stalker vs Hellion/marauder micro. Superior micro wins.
And one more thing. Marines are indeed underwhelming when guardian shield is available but once stim gets researched, marines are quite powerful once again. Easily mow down sentries and then instantly gain 2 more dmg back.
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Why marauders and hellions? Can't we go hellions and siege tanks? If we do siege tank hellion viking, we can build early armoryX2
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sorry i got cutoff from my previous message. "...early armoryX2, so get fast vehicle and aircraft upgrades. What do you guys think? Is this better than marauders hellions micro-wise and economy wise?
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OK i know siege tank isn't ideal against immortals, but if there are enough siege tanks...
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On April 22 2010 17:37 Rucky wrote:
And one more thing. Marines are indeed underwhelming when guardian shield is available but once stim gets researched, marines are quite powerful once again. Easily mow down sentries and then instantly gain 2 more dmg back.
There is a very easy solution to defend the Sentries who provide protection for the Immortals: Put them on FOLLOW to the Immortals. Since Guardian Shield costs 100 energy a Protoss player might want to split his Sentries into two control groups anyway, so he does not bring a Sentry below 100 energy by casting a Forcefield. That way you have maybe 3 Sentries whose sole purpose is to follow Immortals and provide Guardian Shield, while the others are up front and provide Forcefield annoyance cover. You can only shoot what you can reach and a Sentry behind the Immortal will be the last target you reach OR you have to run through the whole Protoss army that is shooting you just to get to the Sentries in the back ... AND hope that he doesnt cut you off with Forcefield. This tactic would leave only air or sieged Tanks with any chance of killing the Guardian Shields.
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On April 22 2010 16:27 Bibdy wrote:
Go fast Banshees, with a bunker full of Marauders for defense and exploit Protoss' terrible GtA while you can. I'm convinced those things are getting nerfed sometime soon. Its absolutely, unequivocably godamned stupid how strong Banshees are against Protoss.
Its not even remotely conceivable to me why they'd turn the Wraith into a ground-stomping monstrosity. By the time I can get an Observer, or Hallucination into a Terran base, he can already have 2 Banshees almost finished. Then I somehow, miraculously, need to get sufficient air defenses to hold them off in both my base AND my ground force before I can go anywhere. Its just...unbelievable. Its worse than Mutas.
A Banshee can do 24 damage every 1.25 seconds, which is 19.2 DPS. A Stalker does 14 damage every 1.44 seconds, which is 9.7 DPS. A Banshee, costing a mere 150/100 can take on twice its number in Stalkers for crying out loud. They are SOO punishing against a Protoss who isn't absolutely massing Stalkers like a damn lunatic. Nevermind cloaking and instagibbing Observers with Vikings and COMSAT. Once they get Cloak, you might as well just give up.
So, Terrans, exploit that while you can. I'm pretty sure it won't last long.
what does this rambling have to do with this thread?
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Worked for me in bronze I would have built marines+marauders and failed, because zealots+sentry+immortal are pretty good against that composition.
Tried this yesterday on Desert Oasis.
I scouted the robo build and continued with marauders from 2 barracks (with a few marines mixed in just in case) and hellions from a reactored factory.
In the open field we met some zealots, 2-3 sentries, a stalker and 2-3 immortals. After the clash, they backed up fast, losing zealots and sentries; one immortal made it back. (this was the main value of my hellions in this build vs gate/immortal push, they allowed me not to lose on my way to the opponents base).
I didn't get up the ramp because he had stalkers warped in and I chickened out. Hellions could not get through, marauders crowded behind them, so I backed up a bit. But I had map control then.
I expanded to an island and continued massing ground. Added banshees.
He expanded to natural. Built many stalkers, got collosi, but only moved out a couple of times, and my army of marauders/hellions/banshees/vikings was enough to stop them.
I expanded for the second time - to my natural, massed banshees, got a few more vikings and won thanks to banshees.
Edit: about putting sentries behind immortals - actually hellions can run around that, if you meet in the open field. They are really superior in speed.
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The reason you cant get rauders and siege tanks is because you cannot get enough gas to stop the timing push. Hellions are mineral only and the only gas that it costs you is the upgrade and factory/addons.
This opening allows you to expand safely against everything except maybe a void ray rush.
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Very interesting idea Tiamat, I will give this a try on my next TvP. Still waiting for Narutos anyalysis of high level play with this strat. Wouldnt you want to get concussive shells early as well tho?? Im just thinking of combining the slowed protoss units with fast helions it seems like he wouldnt be able to run away at all causing terrible terrible damge from any engagement until he gets his Collisi.
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On April 22 2010 16:27 Bibdy wrote:
A Banshee can do 24 damage every 1.25 seconds, which is 19.2 DPS. A Stalker does 14 damage every 1.44 seconds, which is 9.7 DPS. A Banshee, costing a mere 150/100 can take on twice its number in Stalkers for crying out loud. They are SOO punishing against a Protoss who isn't absolutely massing Stalkers like a damn lunatic. Nevermind cloaking and instagibbing Observers with Vikings and COMSAT. Once they get Cloak, you might as well just give up.
So, Terrans, exploit that while you can. I'm pretty sure it won't last long.
Can you be any more of a moron? Let's forget that stalkers cost 1/2 the gas, have 160 hp and are T1.5. A T3 banshee can barely take on one stalker 1on1 even without sentry sheild. It's completely obvious that Stalker/sentry >> Banshee for cost in a straight fight.
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Interesting strategy... but what the hell kind of build is that?
11 CC
11 rax
11 refinery
11 refinery
11 factory
Really? I don't see how you would have held off ANY sort of protoss aggression, especially considering you didn't scout until 8 minutes into the game!
Your first fighting unit isn't out until 5 minutes in o.o;
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On April 23 2010 01:37 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2010 16:27 Bibdy wrote:
A Banshee can do 24 damage every 1.25 seconds, which is 19.2 DPS. A Stalker does 14 damage every 1.44 seconds, which is 9.7 DPS. A Banshee, costing a mere 150/100 can take on twice its number in Stalkers for crying out loud. They are SOO punishing against a Protoss who isn't absolutely massing Stalkers like a damn lunatic. Nevermind cloaking and instagibbing Observers with Vikings and COMSAT. Once they get Cloak, you might as well just give up.
So, Terrans, exploit that while you can. I'm pretty sure it won't last long. Can you be any more of a moron? Let's forget that stalkers cost 1/2 the gas, have 160 hp and are T1.5. A T3 banshee can barely take on one stalker 1on1 even without sentry sheild. It's completely obvious that Stalker/sentry >> Banshee for cost in a straight fight.
You say stalkers cost half the gas then add in that they require a 100 gas unit to be effective. You also imply that the terran is going banshee rush only, not banshee harass/support for the main army, which is hellion/mara. Stop being an idiot please those sentries are gonna get toasted by a 100 min unit.
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Sentries protect your entire force with guardian sheilds and FF while also adding very good dps of their own, obviously. What was your point there?
I never "imply" anything about giong banshee only, or not going banshee only. I was merely responding to a statement that Banshees are cost effective against protoss ground-to-air and that one banshee can somehow magically beat 2 stalkers.
Please read the entire post before making random attacks against things that weren't even at issue.
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Actually, I made a mistake. Stalkers only do 6.94 DPS (10 damage every 1.44 seconds) to Banshees, since they're light.
A unit doing 19.2 DPS to 320 HP can almost beat two units doing 6.94 DPS to 140 hp.
When the first Stalker dies, the Banshee is at 110-120 health. The other Stalker will be at around half health when the Banshee finally dies.
Here's the math:
Time for 1 Banshee to kill 1 Stalker: 160/19.2 = 8.333 seconds
Damage done by 2 Stalkers in 8.333 seconds = 8.333 * 6.92 * 2 = 115.3 (rounded to 110 or 120 damage)
Time for last Stalker to kill Banshee (worst case scenario: 30 health left): 3 * 1.44 = 4.32 seconds
Damage done by Banshee in 4.32 seconds = 19.2 * 4.32 = 82.94
So the Stalker will be at around half health.
So compare 250 minerals, 100 gas and 4 food versus 150 minerals, 100 gas and 3 food.
Then consider that multiple Banshees fly around in a big wad, making it incredibly painful to focus-fire them and enter the fight simultaneously, as opposed to defending Stalkers running in one at a time (besides Blink).
The damn things are insanely powerful for their cost, and when Protoss can't rely on any of their air units for support in battle, when they gather up a decent army, complete with Banshees, you basically have to hope that your Terran opponent isn't smart enough to focus-fire all your Stalkers down with Stimmed Marauders and Banshees.
So yeah, all in all, I still think Banshees are stupidly powerful at harassment, ending the game instantly if a Protoss gets all of his Observers sniped by COMSAT and simple killing power.
Calling me a moron isn't really going to change any of that.
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Doing the calculations by dps instead of number of shots is not very accurate.
You forgot that stalkers have 1 armor which decreases banshee attacks by 2 damage on the hp portion.
It takes banshees 7-8 shots to kill a stalker. In that time, the 2 stalkers would have each shot 6 times dealing 120 damage.
The remaining stalker would kill the banshee in 2 more shots. The banshee would have done 48 damage to the stalker sheild before it dies.
As a side note, for ground-to-air, Sentries and stalkers go together like Bonnie and Clyde. No sane person would take sentries along with their stalkers. Banshees are not effective against stalker/sentry of equal minera/gas cost.
When you say effective for cost, you also MUST factor in the tech cost (small effect), production building costs (moderate effect), and build speed (large effect).
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There's nothing wrong with checking DPS to verify the timings. It basically came out to the same conclusion, because you have to round the values up/down depending on the potential number of shots. How successful the second Stalker is simply depends on whether the Banshee ends up at 20 or 30 health when the first Stalker dies, which is dependent on whether or not they run head-first at one another, or the Banshee sneaks up and gets the first shot off.
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Way to much theory craft guys.. . Banshee mobility plus FF=gg Stalker. Not to mention the point of the banshees is to contain and kill what you can not run in and hope for the best.
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sounds pretty sick, will try at 1700 plat. hope it works
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yeah..let's nerf the banshees so that terrans got nothing left to offer in tvp so that Bibdy can start winnig pvt again, (as it wasnt easy already)
Let's compare 2 units to eachother without thinking of the big context here, that's a real nice logic right there isn't it? sigh!
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You just got two big changes to help you with Immortal pushes. Stop being a baby.
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2 is probably more than enough so I dont see the issue. Do you think ur just gonna get a way with a powerful immortal rush and then being able to repel an incoming banshee rush?that would make the game very one sided and toss too strong. Tell me how is terran supposed to make a good push without getting completly destroyed and also being able to repel your next tier unit. you have to see things in the BIG context
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I don't expect that. I do expect to be able to halt a Banshee rush or harassment when I spot it in advance, without much difficulty. But, when they just mass the things, get Cloak, a couple of Vikings, pop COMSAT every time the Banshees get fired upon (obviously they have to save COMSAT energy for this to work) and the Vikings instagib the Observer, I think Terrans have a little too much of an easy time landing a definite hammerblow, game-ending strike when they go Banshees against Protoss.
Its not like I can chase after those Banshees with Stalkers and Sentries and whittle down his numbers, really punishing him for his Tech choice. He just has to harass while he turns them into a critical mass ball. Much the same as a Zerg going Mutas.
Apparently I'm supposed to use my air units to counter these strats, and inflict casualties without having to wait for him to come to me, but there's a huge danger in getting too many Void Rays/Phoenixes and getting raped by a ground army...exactly the same with Zerg going Mutas, too.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, buff the godamn Phoenix.
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On April 21 2010 18:31 link0 wrote:
And what if they make all stalkers and immortals like toss usually does?
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On April 23 2010 09:03 Bibdy wrote:
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, buff the godamn Phoenix.
Actually i think the VR is the worst for the cost, build time, and effective use vs. units. That being said, I dislike all of our air units.
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Phoenixes do not need any kind of buffing what-so-ever in damage/hp unless they reduce speed in compensation. You can't have it all.
The key to easily stomping Terran air in a army vs army battle is to target banshees with your phoneix while ignoring the vikings. Phoenix cost the same as banshees, but you will kill banshees MUCH faster than vikings will kill your phoenixes.
If you do this, Terran air heavy builds will be completely stomped unless you do something stupid like only make one observer after scouting such a build.
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Was just thinking a Void Ray would be a good counter to the Banshee. They don't do a ton of damage to them, but they can't fight back, and since you could fairly easily rape the Vikings you could get air dominance pretty easy.
Then, it turns out, Void Rays have a speed of 2.25 and Banshees 2.75, so you won't be able to inflict actual casualties if they're harasssing without spending a ton of gas on the speed upgrade.
Stupid Protoss air units.
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I do agree that protoss air is sucky. However try a few cannons on your line with more than 1 observer. Some static D will go a long way as the terran has invested a significant amount of gas and mins to do a dual port with the cloack upgrade.
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VRs are sucky, but phoenix are quite good for cost.
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On April 23 2010 10:13 link0 wrote:
Phoenixes do not need any kind of buffing what-so-ever in damage/hp unless they reduce speed in compensation. You can't have it all.
The key to easily stomping Terran air in a army vs army battle is to target banshees with your phoneix while ignoring the vikings. Phoenix cost the same as banshees, but you will kill banshees MUCH faster than vikings will kill your phoenixes.
If you do this, Terran air heavy builds will be completely stomped unless you do something stupid like only make one observer after scouting such a build.
I just want something I can use to get rid of Banshee and Muta harassment without shouting to my opponent from the rafters "Hey! I've got a crappy anti-ground army! Come kick my ass, please!", or "This giant wad of Stalkers looks very tasty to a Stimmed Marauder ball, doesn't it?"
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How does he have a stimmed marauder ball when he was going mass banshees? And if he didn't go mass banshees, why did you go mass stalker/sentry?
If the terran invests into 2 starports with tech labs, the smart toss would counter with 1-2 stargates. It's just the sensible thing to do.
Unlike toss, terran doesn't have a easy and economical way to constantly monitor enemy tech and unit composition.
Terran just has the boring overpowered marauder to spam to equalize all its disadvantages.
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Then we get back to the whole 'its easy to overcommit with Phoenixes' thing. You don't have an Observer after all, so you can't keep tabs on his tech switches the entire time.
Its tough. Phoenixes are big gamble, and the only payoff is stopping the harassment. Not landing a decisive hammerblow. If I don't have any AA, and he has banshees, I'm screwed. If he doesn't have any AA and I have a few Phoenixes left after killing his Banshees...he's fine. Just keep spamming some Marines for a while. They usually run out of energy picking them up long before you can really hurt the guy's econ.
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On April 22 2010 16:36 G.s)NarutO wrote:
I'm going to try it out vs our Protoss and HasuObs, lets see how it works on high level.
back on topic, sorry to interrupt guys, but have you tried this yet naruto? I tried it but i'm shitty and my flaws embarrass me so i don't wannt post reps 
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EPT
