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On April 18 2010 14:39 arnold(soTa) wrote:
I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes.
simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
Aren't you contradicting yourself by saying that you need to pull probes off the minerals, giving protoss a loss of minerals; and then you're saying mules don't put terran ahead when protoss has probes off the mineral field.
Mules aren't broken at all, and neither are marines; that is irrelevant. But usually what follows reaper harass is marauder all ins with 2-3 barracks. "Micro"-ed probes require the reaper to not run away, allowing himself to be surrounded. Just having probes chase the reaper is good enough to give terran a lead. Reapers will rape a small number of probes. Reapers also rape zealots because zealots are too slow to keep up. Using a large number of probes to chase the reaper just sets you back way too much, but it will drive off the reaper(s) at a high cost.
Of course, then come in the marauders. Those small inconveniences add up, they do not allow you to get enough to defend with. Zealots to chase reapers away is a little silly. Reapers do bonus damage against light, and having that many zealots to begin with is just blocking your ability to tech up, or do anything else.
On a map like desert oasis where you have half the enemy's base as a cliff to retreat with; reapers seem way too cheesy. But on maps where mineral lines don't have a cliff behind them, it could probably be fought off with probes surrounding the reaper if the reaper tries to go behind the mineral lines. But why would the reaper do that and go out of his way to back himself against a wall? Decent reaper harass just always has the reaper in a decent sensible spot, plus SCVs were cut to get those reapers there very early.
There might be a way to fight this off, sure. But I don't really see any valid solutions other than "you all are retards, here is a link to the tampax website." It is sad to see someone actually do that to orb when orb is taking low level replays and actually trying to help the low level community. I can't say I have the right to say this, but damn, where is the respect for people trying to do good?
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Again, the problem seems to be not in the actual units, but in map design.
Small maps + long cliffs = extremely hard for P to defend (or T actually, this reaper rush screws another terran even worse than it does a protoss), but once retarded maps like desert oasis get phased out by community (or kespa or blizzard) made balanced maps, this rush will become less and less viable.
I really want to see what blizzard changes in the next patch before casting judgment about this thing being imba.
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8748 Posts
On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote:
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
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On April 18 2010 15:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote:
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange. You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
Damn that is a hot idea. To recap, looks like you take 4-5 probes to force the reaper to retreat, and if the probe takes damage, then send it back while the other probes keep charging. From the looks of it, you're cutting an equal number of workers, and probably a lot less. Once that stalker gets out, woo.
Sound about right? Well, lets hope this ends terran early reaper harass since you would come out on top once you get a stalker out.
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On April 18 2010 14:43 Chen wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 18 2010 14:05 Equalizer wrote:WARNING: The following is theorycraft so if you're only willing to consider things that have been test in-game stop readingI'll look at what I believe is the most effective reaper attack possible and try to come up with a generic start build that can tolerate it without gimping the toss severely if there was in fact no reaper rush. First, off I'm going to assume that the opponent has perfect micro. That is, zealots can't touch a reaper and probes can't surround it. Second, I'm going to consider the fastest reaper build I know to exist which is, 0:37 rax 0:50 refinery 1:38 tech lab 2:04 reaper 2:44 reaper finish
3:15 earliest possible for reaper to be in toss base (Note: 3:20 or a few seconds later will be the case on most maps)This was first posted on blizz form here: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24261187853&sid=5000Third, lets say that every 6 seconds that the reaper is in the toss base the toss player looses a probe. This may seem a bit high but I'm assuming that the toss player also has perfect micro and will be pulling the probe under fire from mining and running it away from the reaper. (Note: prior to upgrade reapers and workers have equal speed.) Here's what I suggest for the toss start build: (Note: I'm not using the food based build format since I don't think its specific enough) train probe, count: 7 train probe, count: 8 train probe, count: 9 chrono boost nexus train probe, count: 10 build 1 pylon [expected start time 1:00] build 1 gateway [expected start time 1:25] send gateway build probe to scout train probe, count: 11 chrono boost nexus train probe, count: 12 train probe, count: 13 build assimilor [expected start time 2:00] train probe, count: 14 build cybernetics core [expected start time 2:30] (By now you should have scouted if he is rushing or not and can deviate from this if rush indicators not seen) train zealot chrono boost gate way (on completion send zealot towards terran base ignoring reaper, should stall the terran and is necessary in case terran switched to marauder) (I expect scout probe to have died trying to be annoying) train probe, count: 14 continue training probes to replace those that will die but don't supply block the stalker [reaper to be in toss base 3:15] train stalker [expected start time 3:20] chrono boost gate way after 20 seconds chrono boost gate way again stalker finished 3:52 train another stalker expected probe losses 6-7 Terran will likely have 8-9 scv's and orbital command. Note: Terran will need to deal with zealot, so can't just power after make only 1 reaper. Toss should have 11-12 probes End result is at least comparable economic shape. I found that a normal 12 gate gets the stalker out at about 15 seconds later, 11 gate about 10 seconds later. Any way good luck to those trying to beat reaper rush I'd say toss can emerge at least close to even in this extreme case so it isn't truly broken. Note: I haven't considered other reaper timing since I assume they wouldn't be fast enough to be effective. If you're doing this build its obviously going to be a proxy rax, so reaper will be in the base BEFORE 3 minutes, ie another 4ish probes dead assuming perfect micro. plus you dont seem to understand that a terran with equal or even more scv's has a HUGE eco advantage vs a toss because of the mule. Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 14:39 arnold(soTa) wrote:
I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes.
simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
dude you are retarded and in need of a ban. you're argument is just as retarded when you say its fine that the toss just sacrifices all semblance of an economy automatically on every two player map just so they have a chance to not auto-die to this rush. plus his response to the bunker was smarter than yours, he just used his zeal to kill the scv and cancel its construction rather than your stupid idea of pulling probes to kill it, or did you bother to watch the replay he posted? plus WTF do you think the terran has to do at home? hotkey the CC to 1, racks to 2, reaper to 3. with automine every 20 seconds click 1, hit hotkey for scv, hit 2 hit hotkey for reaper, go back to micro vs slower melee units
rofl ur a joke..yes I have watched the replay (not that I need to, I unlike you can execute both the cheesereaper rush and the defence), orb clearly fucked up...simply as that.
what do you think I meant by using probes on bunker? maybe I shuold have made it clearer rofl, just thought ppl on this site had some brains, ofc target the scv........ just because you are a copperleaguer dont asume everyone else is :D
This is not hard to stop. true story. Orb just whinges on and on about anything that kills him, and you fanboys just eat it up. "OH LOOK MY RACE _IS_ Underpowred, here is the proof"
simple instructions for terran macro, thnx for the help roflcompstomp.
Not like the P micro is harder...infact its easier if you calm down and approach it without your nerdrage.
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You're either a troll or too young to be on this site.
But I like nony's idea, kinda micro heavy but that's rushing, I'm gonna try it out with a friend later.
Edit: also, I watched the desert replay again, and I just keep seeing more things you do wrong, orb. First of all, throughout the game, from when the first reaper shows, you know you're being rushed, OK? You then make 1 stalker while allowing a couple probes to be killed from what seems to be pure negligence, and then after you've chased off the reapers you put the stalker facing the base entrance. You know there are 2-3 reapers hiding, with a cliff right by your probes, how about putting the stalker by the probes? And why is it that you always have 2, sometimes even 3 probes queued up while not making anything from your gateway? You know you're being rushed, you know that means the terran economy is bad, why don't you ease on probe chronoing for a second and beat off the rush? No offense, but it just seems like you're not even trying.
All that aside, have you tried sending a zeal to the enemy base? You'd get 2 critical scv kills or a comlete mining halt before he even gets a reaper back there, and then the pressure is off.
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On April 18 2010 17:40 Osmoses wrote:
But I like nony's idea, kinda micro heavy but that's rushing, I'm gonna try it out with a friend later.
That's not some random Idea Nony has concocted magically, that's pretty much what everyone has been saying the last 2 weeks (I'm sure I said it like 3 times in this thread), you guys just don't want to listen, and I'm sure Nony waited until now to post because it's common sense and didn't think he had to say anything.
But it's too late, the damage has been done and we can expect a significant tech lab nerf (or something similar) next week because of the MASS amount of threads on the bnet forums about it.
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I was talking about the probe rotation, the chasing is pretty obvious.
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I am T and have huge problems against 9 Reaper on small maps with more then one entry cliff. Its even hard to block the first reaper with two marines and decent micro and if they pile up the loss is incoming. Do you build a bunker behind your mineral line(doesn't protect all workers) or is there any other way to safely shield them off?
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On April 18 2010 17:55 PokePill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 17:40 Osmoses wrote:
But I like nony's idea, kinda micro heavy but that's rushing, I'm gonna try it out with a friend later. That's not some random Idea Nony has concocted magically, that's pretty much what everyone has been saying the last 2 weeks (I'm sure I said it like 3 times in this thread), you guys just don't want to listen, and I'm sure Nony waited until now to post because it's common sense and didn't think he had to say anything. But it's too late, the damage has been done and we can expect a significant tech lab nerf (or something similar) next week because of the MASS amount of threads on the bnet forums about it.
this lol
everytime i do this rush most good tosses defend it that way
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On April 18 2010 18:11 Lythis wrote:
I am T and have huge problems against 9 Reaper on small maps with more then one entry cliff. Its even hard to block the first reaper with two marines and decent micro and if they pile up the loss is incoming. Do you build a bunker behind your mineral line(doesn't protect all workers) or is there any other way to safely shield them off?
You need to get a marauder out asap, not a bunker.
If you don't scout this and 11 rax like usual, it's almost autoloss, 12 rax - guaranteed autoloss.
Main problem of this rush was never P or Z, it was mirror MUs, especially after SCV hp and marauder nerf.
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its problem for p on desert oasis/bliss sands mostly, blizzard cant design maps for shit so thats the issue not the build imo.
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On April 18 2010 19:49 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 18:11 Lythis wrote:
I am T and have huge problems against 9 Reaper on small maps with more then one entry cliff. Its even hard to block the first reaper with two marines and decent micro and if they pile up the loss is incoming. Do you build a bunker behind your mineral line(doesn't protect all workers) or is there any other way to safely shield them off? You need to get a marauder out asap, not a bunker. If you don't scout this and 11 rax like usual, it's almost autoloss, 12 rax - guaranteed autoloss. Main problem of this rush was never P or Z, it was mirror MUs, especially after SCV hp and marauder nerf.
But normally u scout after u start building the rax so I dont see how you can have a bigger chance in finding he's proxy that and react to it. Or are you saying to scout before the rax?
Maruders takes so long time to build, seems like he can get alot of scv before ur first one is out.
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On April 18 2010 15:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote:
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange. You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
to everyone: please see this game as an example of the type of micro that NonY is talking about.
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You don't always need stalkers. If you know he's getting reapers, and you stick a cannon behind your mineral line, you will be okay.
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I play Terran and have a lot of trouble with the reaper cheese. Since bunkers are salvageable, I've been playing around with the idea of putting up a bunker near my mineral line by default when playing against other terrans. My normal build is 10sup 12 rax 13 sup for the walloff, but against another terran you don't really need the wall usually except for denying scouting, so building a bunker on 13 doesn't set you back too much and it can be salvaged as soon as the threat of reaper cheese is gone.
I'm only in gold, though, so the people I play against are either 1) bad at micro, 2) good at micro but incapable of multitasking/continuing to macro while they micro. Or they just plain aren't doing it right, which is another possibility...
Have any other T's experimented with adding an early bunker to their TvT BO and then salvaging it once you have enough to defend? I'm not playing at a very high level so I can't really say whether it's a good or bad idea.
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On April 18 2010 15:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote:
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange. You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining.
sir, i tried it and i had even more trouble when the second one come in the first should have 1 kills i assume)... the only thing i hvnt tried is that 15 cy => stalker => kill reapers => zealots => charges => all in since zea > marauder 
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On April 18 2010 23:02 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 15:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote:
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange. You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining. to everyone: please see this game as an example of the type of micro that NonY is talking about.
Wish the protoss didn't lose this one, but yea, thats a decent example I guess.
On April 19 2010 02:55 NB wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 15:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote:
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange. You don't need to use every Probe. I'd say 4-5 at a time. You only need enough to make the Reaper have to run away. So you still have 12+ Probes mining. sir, i tried it and i had even more trouble when the second one come in the first should have 1 kills i assume)... the only thing i hvnt tried is that 15 cy => stalker => kill reapers => zealots => charges => all in since zea > marauder
First time I tried it, it worked out half way until the second reaper. But the next few times, it actually worked out. Seems like a hit and miss, some people just can't manage their reapers while others seem unfazed (that is, when their second reaper comes out). Though, can't have everyone give the answers for every step of the game for us. Tried some weird stuff on that second reaper, like two groups of probes, and that hilariously got me to my stalker. It did hit my mining time by a bit, but once my stalker was out, I got my sentry asap and force fielded my ramp for any marauders afterwards.
Dunno, still further than I've managed to get before.
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Instead of going for the stalker try, going for some zealots instead and try microing around with it and some probes. Chances are if he went for such a fast reaper, his orbital command would be a little later, so you can afford to lose some probes in that sense. My advice would be to just build a nice sim city around your base. Apart from this you gotta take into account the spawn positions, what if he scouts you late? Then his timing will obviously be later.
Overall just try the zealot strategy or rush to the stalker as fast as you can, remember if you scout him early enough you can also use your probe to attack his scv building the barracks which can delay it a little.
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On April 17 2010 23:32 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 20:35 Skyze wrote:
I rush my stalker asap, but if I scout and see he proxied his rax (ie faster reaper outing) I will build one zeal while my core is being built, to at least chase abit so the reaper cant just reign free on my probes. Sure it puts your stalker and economy behind abit, but it is worth it to possibly only lose 1-2 probes instead of 4-5.
Also, if I am feeling extremely vunerable to a reaper rush from the start (ie the player is a known cheeser, a randomer or certain maps) - I make sure to pylon on 8, gate on 9, core 10. It gives me a few extra seconds for that stalker to come faster, at the cost of economy. But better safe than sorry in certain situations. I apologize in advance for being so god damn bad manner to all you dumb fucks in my thread, but holy fucking shit. It's like an endless fucking stream of dumb fucking morons that come into the thread spewing their fucking idiocy all over the place. Read the fucking OP, watch the fucking replay, or get the fuck out I don't give a shit what you have to say. What you've said has been said already and it doesn't fucking work if you had read the thread at all, so please kill yourself for being so god damn stupid. I'm so tired of 90% of the replies to topics these days being from retards that don't even read the OP let alone even a fraction of the rest of the thread. You're not welcome
yeah let's put this guy's stream on the calendar. he seems like a positive influence in the community.
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EPT
