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On April 18 2010 02:41 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 02:30 Wilko wrote:On April 17 2010 23:35 -orb- wrote:On April 17 2010 20:24 Wilko wrote:
Go 11 Gate with 8,5 Nexus-Boost
There is only a small eco-loss and you should be able to defend it no why no as in you won't be able to defend it and it won't make a difference
Due to the faster gate u can buy time with probes+zealot untill your stalker pops out
You will only lose 3-4 probes, which leads to an even worker-count again, which isn't optimal, but acceptable
It worked vs Lucifron and TheLittleOne and i'm pretty sure they executed it nearly perfectly
But i don't have a problem, if u prove me wrong
So if u have a replay, which shows that this opening doesn't work against it, post it plz (sry, if i don't believe in common game-knowledge)
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I think there's a misconception several people have, which is the reason that -orb- is so upset(or at least how I assume some people say they 'fended it off' with zealots, or something like that). Prior to the last few games I just played, I'd encountered "reaper rushes" that I thought were being done by good players; somehow, though, I managed to defend against it. I always had my stalker out in time. The problem is, upon checking the replays, they had always built their barracks at their ramp and just waypointed from there. That's a waste of time Now, having just faced the cheese three times in a row, I feel comfortable adding my rage with -orb-'s. The fast reapers are being created by a barracks near your spawn and, really, there simply isn't much time to react: your zealot is a joke, and "pulling probes" doesn't actually work(and god forbid somebody recommend cannons again). You have to suck it up and go for the stalker which, really, doesn't seem to be particularly fair. The terran will have gained a fairly good advantage at this point and can then transition into something more dangerous down the line.
This does not seem to be a strategy that is particularly fair for the toss and it requires, essentially, a probe pulled off immediately to scout the opponent and a pylon being warped in at far too early a junction to be viable later on(assuming you've built well to deal with the rush) It is simply a matter of math, and I do not think it has been addressed fairly or reasonably in this thread. -orb- has his share of nerd rage, but I think it's justified here(despite what I previously had thought).
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I didn't read the thread, but how are zergs handling a fast proxy reaper rush on 2 player maps? I'm wondering if I should be opening overpool with the extractor trick even against terran on a big map like desert oasis. I played a game today where I noticed terran opening up proxy rax but I was able to scout it perfectly with my first ov just barely I think without him seeing me and I was able to overpool extractor trick open and easily won the game. If I went 15 hatch 14 pool which I would normally do I think I would have lost every time.
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I used some time to read all this topic and, im completely agree with orb, what a bunch of stupid suggestions...
Im a protoss player as well, and I tryed with one comrade ways to stop that , and without an "god imagination" its impossible to face it atm with and ok BO.
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While not saying it's balanced at all, because I don't believe it is, it's not "impossible" to counter. People really need to try just going 10 gateway, and then using probe/zealot micro to fight it off. The most you should lose will be 2 or 3 probes.
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On April 18 2010 10:29 RoboFerret wrote:
While not saying it's balanced at all, because I don't believe it is, it's not "impossible" to counter. People really need to try just going 10 gateway, and then using probe/zealot micro to fight it off. The most you should lose will be 2 or 3 probes.
Have you
A) bothered to read ANY of this thread?
B) ever TRIED to do what you suggest? its like saying you will never lose more than a few lings/drones vs a slow vulture.
people have tried 10 gate, they have been cutting probes all over the place to try to get stalker out in time. esp when they build a proxy bunker, which forces you to attack that and let the reaper pick off units.
Also, even if it is possible to hold off, do you terrans really think that saying a toss MUST cut large numbers of probes to rush early stalker every game or risk auto-loss is fair?
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If a toss 10gate 13 gas 15 cyber, isn't the probe ~3 at most? Take 5 probes and click past the reaper until you can surround him. If he doesn't have 3 probe kills by the time your stalker comes out, isn't he behind?
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So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Stalker out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
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On April 03 2010 02:54 AltCtrlDel wrote:
The Zealots should have a burst sprint ability (With cool down timer, not lasting too long) from the beginning to balance it out in this rush scenario or any .. just enough to track down a Reaper and at least combat it .. (Then if you wanted to after then "research" the ability that it currently has in the game) Reaper could micro skillfully to try and battle 2 or 3 Zeal's off which would be fair. <-- My 2 cents.. =X
no they shouldn't. Their damage output and charge are already good enough. oh no, a reaper, which costs gas and takes a long time to build, can beat a zealot. wow. NO WAY.
although i like the sprint idea on the zealots. if you give marines some kind of 100+ damage bazooka and the ability to blink.
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So yea, did anyone else just watch Tasteless v Loner?
I honestly don't understand whats left to talk about in this topic other than "it is cheesy." I also wonder how many people have actually watched a reaper cheese replay and not just assume it is "normal reaper timing" and not "super fast reaper timing."
Avoiding to talk about some key points, like 8 supply proxy rax and decent gas timing, is silly.
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After testing it out on a few T and P players, this looks to me like the early brood war 4 pool rush, which was nearly undefendable.
I think boosting tech lab build time by 5 seconds (which it should be anyway) would bring this down to the current level of 4 pool, making it more all in (so players wont abuse it) and more defendable.
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On April 18 2010 12:56 LONG_PTR wrote:
So yea, did anyone else just watch Tasteless v Loner?
I honestly don't understand whats left to talk about in this topic other than "it is cheesy." I also wonder how many people have actually watched a reaper cheese replay and not just assume it is "normal reaper timing" and not "super fast reaper timing."
Avoiding to talk about some key points, like 8 supply proxy rax and decent gas timing, is silly.
one guy did exactly them same thing to me as Loner did to tasteless just now and its can only be block if you hv ur cyber at 15 b4 the 2nd pylon and it requires massive micro to survive b4 the stalker comes out... if you cant spot that early, you r doom!
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On April 18 2010 12:40 BentoBox wrote:
So nony says that what you need to do is pull all your probes in order to make them chase the reaper, and as he shoots the probe at the head of the line once, you make him retreat immediately (somewhat similar in principle to Blink retreat micro), and that should buy you enough time before you get your Sentry out. Obviously very hard to do.
Don't know how that leaves you economically vs Terran after the exchange.
This would leave you waaaaaay behind.
8 Raxing doesn't leave the terran that far behind because of the mule mechanic, whereas if you completely stop mining for that entire time you will be soooooooo far behind
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Why would u pull all the probes? you only need enough to surround the reaper. 5-6 would be max. As long as you make his reaper move instead of fire, you can limit your probe losses.
I 15 cyber 17 pylon. Why is it so bad to cyber at 15?
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WARNING: The following is theorycraft so if you're only willing to consider things that have been test in-game stop reading
I'll look at what I believe is the most effective reaper attack possible and try to come up with a generic start build that can tolerate it without gimping the toss severely if there was in fact no reaper rush.
First, off I'm going to assume that the opponent has perfect micro.
That is, zealots can't touch a reaper and probes can't surround it.
Second, I'm going to consider the fastest reaper build I know to exist which is,
0:37 rax
0:50 refinery
1:38 tech lab
2:04 reaper
2:44 reaper finish
3:15 earliest possible for reaper to be in toss base (Note: 3:20 or a few seconds later will be the case on most maps)
This was first posted on blizz form here:
http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24261187853&sid=5000
Third, lets say that every 6 seconds that the reaper is in the toss base the toss player looses a probe. This may seem a bit high but I'm assuming that the toss player also has perfect micro and will be pulling the probe under fire from mining and running it away from the reaper.
(Note: prior to upgrade reapers and workers have equal speed.)
Here's what I suggest for the toss start build:
(Note: I'm not using the food based build format since I don't think its specific enough)
train probe, count: 7
train probe, count: 8
train probe, count: 9
chrono boost nexus
train probe, count: 10
build 1 pylon [expected start time 1:00]
build 1 gateway [expected start time 1:25]
send gateway build probe to scout
train probe, count: 11
chrono boost nexus
train probe, count: 12
train probe, count: 13
build assimilor [expected start time 2:00]
train probe, count: 14
build cybernetics core [expected start time 2:30]
(By now you should have scouted if he is rushing or not and can deviate from this if rush indicators not seen)
train zealot
chrono boost gate way
(on completion send zealot towards terran base ignoring reaper, should stall the terran and is necessary in case terran switched to marauder)
(I expect scout probe to have died trying to be annoying)
train probe, count: 14
continue training probes to replace those that will die but don't supply block the stalker
[reaper to be in toss base 3:15]
train stalker [expected start time 3:20]
chrono boost gate way
after 20 seconds chrono boost gate way again
stalker finished 3:52
train another stalker
expected probe losses 6-7
Terran will likely have 8-9 scv's and orbital command.
Note: Terran will need to deal with zealot, so can't just power after make only 1 reaper.
Toss should have 11-12 probes
End result is at least comparable economic shape.
I found that a normal 12 gate gets the stalker out at about 15 seconds later,
11 gate about 10 seconds later.
Any way good luck to those trying to beat reaper rush I'd say toss can emerge at least close to even in this extreme case so it isn't truly broken.
Note: I haven't considered other reaper timing since I assume they wouldn't be fast enough to be effective.
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I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes.
simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 18 2010 14:05 Equalizer wrote:WARNING: The following is theorycraft so if you're only willing to consider things that have been test in-game stop readingI'll look at what I believe is the most effective reaper attack possible and try to come up with a generic start build that can tolerate it without gimping the toss severely if there was in fact no reaper rush. First, off I'm going to assume that the opponent has perfect micro. That is, zealots can't touch a reaper and probes can't surround it. Second, I'm going to consider the fastest reaper build I know to exist which is, 0:37 rax 0:50 refinery 1:38 tech lab 2:04 reaper 2:44 reaper finish
3:15 earliest possible for reaper to be in toss base (Note: 3:20 or a few seconds later will be the case on most maps)This was first posted on blizz form here: http://forums.battle.net/thread.html?topicId=24261187853&sid=5000Third, lets say that every 6 seconds that the reaper is in the toss base the toss player looses a probe. This may seem a bit high but I'm assuming that the toss player also has perfect micro and will be pulling the probe under fire from mining and running it away from the reaper. (Note: prior to upgrade reapers and workers have equal speed.) Here's what I suggest for the toss start build: (Note: I'm not using the food based build format since I don't think its specific enough) train probe, count: 7 train probe, count: 8 train probe, count: 9 chrono boost nexus train probe, count: 10 build 1 pylon [expected start time 1:00] build 1 gateway [expected start time 1:25] send gateway build probe to scout train probe, count: 11 chrono boost nexus train probe, count: 12 train probe, count: 13 build assimilor [expected start time 2:00] train probe, count: 14 build cybernetics core [expected start time 2:30] (By now you should have scouted if he is rushing or not and can deviate from this if rush indicators not seen) train zealot chrono boost gate way (on completion send zealot towards terran base ignoring reaper, should stall the terran and is necessary in case terran switched to marauder) (I expect scout probe to have died trying to be annoying) train probe, count: 14 continue training probes to replace those that will die but don't supply block the stalker [reaper to be in toss base 3:15] train stalker [expected start time 3:20] chrono boost gate way after 20 seconds chrono boost gate way again stalker finished 3:52 train another stalker expected probe losses 6-7 Terran will likely have 8-9 scv's and orbital command. Note: Terran will need to deal with zealot, so can't just power after make only 1 reaper. Toss should have 11-12 probes End result is at least comparable economic shape. I found that a normal 12 gate gets the stalker out at about 15 seconds later, 11 gate about 10 seconds later. Any way good luck to those trying to beat reaper rush I'd say toss can emerge at least close to even in this extreme case so it isn't truly broken. Note: I haven't considered other reaper timing since I assume they wouldn't be fast enough to be effective.
If you're doing this build its obviously going to be a proxy rax, so reaper will be in the base BEFORE 3 minutes, ie another 4ish probes dead assuming perfect micro. plus you dont seem to understand that a terran with equal or even more scv's has a HUGE eco advantage vs a toss because of the mule.
On April 18 2010 14:39 arnold(soTa) wrote:
I wathed orbs stream once and he complained that marines were way way way overpowred lmfao. delete thread plx, this is only a problem on small 2player maps and you should be expecting it there, micro probes/zlot better and terran has to micro in your base+at home perfectly to draw any sort of advantage from this.
Tip, dont let him build a bunker behind your probeline while watching idly as it finishes.
simply saying "OMG MULE MECHANIC" as a counter-argument to the terran behind severely behind due to cutting scvs for a long time is retarded...as I suspect you are.
dude you are retarded and in need of a ban. you're argument is just as retarded when you say its fine that the toss just sacrifices all semblance of an economy automatically on every two player map just so they have a chance to not auto-die to this rush. plus his response to the bunker was smarter than yours, he just used his zeal to kill the scv and cancel its construction rather than your stupid idea of pulling probes to kill it, or did you bother to watch the replay he posted?
plus WTF do you think the terran has to do at home? hotkey the CC to 1, racks to 2, reaper to 3. with automine every 20 seconds click 1, hit hotkey for scv, hit 2 hit hotkey for reaper, go back to micro vs slower melee units
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@chen All I can say is try it as terran. If you proxy your rax will be slower and end result will be similar or slower reaper.
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Can some top level plat players play each other and try this out a bunch of times to see what he results are?
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EPT
