On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
On April 03 2010 07:02 Feefee wrote: I hate them too in PvT, but I don't want them to lose their slow. It makes them an interesting unit. You can micro them (albeit possibly a bit too effectively) to greatly increase their effectiveness, something that most people find "vital" to make sc2 an e-sport: a unit becomes more effective the more you control it. Take that slow away and marauders are just marines that can't hit air... and are on steroids.
What "most people find "vital" to make sc2 an e-sport" is intense micro battles between two players. The slow has the reverse effect, because the other player is unable to micro effectively.
In Warcraft 2, Slow was a 50 mana spell on a tier 3 unit, the Mage. Not as combat effective as bloodlust, but if it had smartcast it would have been pretty badass.
In Warcraft 3, the dryad had a slow on its attack but was tier 2 with a unique tech building and a comparatively weak combat unit in terms of damage and hp. All that notwithstanding, many builds were based off the dryad as main unit composition.
Now in Starcraft 2, you have a unit with the dryad's slow effect which also does more damage than any unit in its class, equal or greater range than any unit in its class, has high hp, and can DOUBLE its DPS at any moment to have some of the highest DPS in the game - at tier 1.
I'm glad Blizzard is learning it's lessons in balance.
One thing that's very frustrating about this push to me is how little the Terran's economy suffers. When I watch replays of my games, it seems as though the Terran's economy is roughly equivalent to my own by the time he backs off. I wind up missing a probe or two trying to build/micro, but it's mostly a gas limitation from not being able to build Zealots to any effect.
It feels like the Terran is completely in control of the game until you finally get an observer out, and that he hasn't really paid any price for it because his units at worst trade with a unit which costs more Gas, and my non-gas options can't effectively counter Marauders without a 300 gas upgrade. Terran just gets a very large window of safety in which they can repair their econ without having to worry about a counter because of how inefficient the P's counters to Marauders are.
It's a 'beatable' build, and if the Protoss can manage to fully recover, it's on the fringe end of a "fair" one, but it feels really demoralizing to just be pinned in your base at the 5 minute mark because your opponent has rallied Marauders and the only thing you can do is sacrifice Zealots and hope you get Stalkers fast enough and hope your opponent micros worse than you do. It's just insult to injury that if you manage to defend, the Terran's economy hasn't taken a real hit for cutting SCVs and mining gas early to get faster Marauders.
On April 03 2010 18:07 TFlame wrote: In Warcraft 2, Slow was a 50 mana spell on a tier 3 unit, the Mage. Not as combat effective as bloodlust, but if it had smartcast it would have been pretty badass.
In Warcraft 3, the dryad had a slow on its attack but was tier 2 with a unique tech building and a comparatively weak combat unit in terms of damage and hp. All that notwithstanding, many builds were based off the dryad as main unit composition.
Now in Starcraft 2, you have a unit with the dryad's slow effect which also does more damage than any unit in its class, equal or greater range than any unit in its class, has high hp, and can DOUBLE its DPS at any moment to have some of the highest DPS in the game - at tier 1.
I'm glad Blizzard is learning it's lessons in balance.
Why are you comparing different games? Slow is much more useful in War3, due to the hero/experience system, combined with smaller, high-HP armies. Getting a unit kill, especially in the early game, is a MUCH bigger deal in War3.
If people didn't like SC2 -> SC1 balance comparisons, I don't think they'd like Warcraft -> Starcraft balance comparisons much either
Edit: I'm not arguing one way or another, just saying don't argue using this method
On April 03 2010 18:47 pat965 wrote: Why are you comparing different games? Slow is much more useful in War3, due to the hero/experience system, combined with smaller, high-HP armies. Getting a unit kill, especially in the early game, is a MUCH bigger deal in War3.
If people didn't like SC2 -> SC1 balance comparisons, I don't think they'd like Warcraft -> Starcraft balance comparisons much either
Edit: I'm not arguing one way or another, just saying don't argue using this method
I think my 3rd point stands on it's own. The comparison is relevant when the armies are smaller and each unit lost is a big deal, such as early game - and that underscores the point that slow is available earlier now than ever before.
If people don't "like" comparisons to the games that are most similar to, are predecessors to, and were worked on by the same team as SC2, it's not by virtue of that fact but either that the comparison itself is faulty or pure stubbornness. Dismissing reasonable comparisons by default is just stupid.
Yeeaaahh, and people keep saying that it's T players that complain hahaha.
Actually it seems like only recently T players have begun playing rax/gas before depot so you just have to wait till this strat becomes more and more popular and someone finds out a timing that counters this well. Only problem is that to notice that he goes rax/gas before depot you would have to scout really early. However i wouldn't call this imba or even OP until this strat becomes dominant with no counter...
I mean sure, cost efficient perhaps especially when you compare it to roach/bane, but for 10 marauders you need like 30-40 of them and that involves getting a good surrounding. If the T even micros and stims a bit its getting a lot harder, especially in the open. And afaik zerg only has spine crawler that does bonus dmg against armored (apart from the corruptor which is only air to air). While the AI is much better than scbw when it comes to autosurround, you can't rely on lots of lings as they will be standing in each others way, basically only a part of your ling army will be able to effectively hit the opponent, even less when theyre bunched up in a ball. It feels like Z has only 2 options against marauder: get mutas asap, total outmacro. Lings and hydras do decent on marauders, but getting a couple hellions has never been that hard to get for T, right.
TFlame formulates it really well. Why does an armored medium-to-high hp t1 unit for 100m/25g have decent medium ranged damage with slow, than can be healed and has stim and moves as quick as a marine? Roaches aren't even that strong and you know how many people cried about roaches.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun?
On April 02 2010 10:52 discordfighting wrote: I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
This times infinity. I think that the phrase 'hard counter' should be temporarily banned on teamliquid until people stop using it excessively and using it too describe any situation that a unit beats another unit. I know what I just said is impossible but it really is ridiculous.
I am now going to describe Starcraft 1s unit interactions with the current lingo that is used in the SC2 beta forums.
Defiler hard counters bio. Tanks hard counter Hydralisks. Goliaths hard counter Mutalisks. Vessals hard counter Defilers. Zealots hard counter tanks. Goons hard counter Vultures. Archons hard counter mutalisks. Lurkers hard counter Zealots.
What I just said sounds totally ridiculous right? I think we seriously need to correct how we describe things here because certain phrases such as 'hard counter' over simplify things WAY too much and in the end it will be harder to really discuss strategy if we use phrases that are so black and white.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
On April 03 2010 18:07 TFlame wrote: In Warcraft 2, Slow was a 50 mana spell on a tier 3 unit, the Mage. Not as combat effective as bloodlust, but if it had smartcast it would have been pretty badass.
In Warcraft 3, the dryad had a slow on its attack but was tier 2 with a unique tech building and a comparatively weak combat unit in terms of damage and hp. All that notwithstanding, many builds were based off the dryad as main unit composition.
Now in Starcraft 2, you have a unit with the dryad's slow effect which also does more damage than any unit in its class, equal or greater range than any unit in its class, has high hp, and can DOUBLE its DPS at any moment to have some of the highest DPS in the game - at tier 1.
I'm glad Blizzard is learning it's lessons in balance.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
By the way, I believe the Ultras on that video didnt have speed upgrade.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
On April 03 2010 21:35 Lunat!c wrote: Well i faced it a few times and i can do a shit against it. The slow is sooo strong it should be a ability that u have to research! -.-
Don't be stupid, it just shouldn't be there in the first place.. They already have stim so it's good enough
On April 03 2010 23:08 Slick348 wrote: Just want everyone to see how crap psi storm is against mauraders and well... everything else.
I don't get what you are talking about. Do you want a protoss to just go pure high templar and win? I guess you're stuck in the mentality that "storm > bio" from SCBW. This is SC2, time to start over and learn a new game. Also storm is amazing against marines, who ever said it's supposed to be better?
It feels like many of you just want storm to be stronger like SCBW, even tho it's not the same game at all.
On April 03 2010 21:35 Lunat!c wrote: Well i faced it a few times and i can do a shit against it. The slow is sooo strong it should be a ability that u have to research! -.-
Don't be stupid, it just shouldn't be there in the first place.. They already have stim so it's good enough
Such a dumb comment. Do you even think what are writing? Protoss are already researching blink why don't leave charge default to zeals.
On April 03 2010 23:08 Slick348 wrote: Just want everyone to see how crap psi storm is against mauraders and well... everything else.
I don't get what you are talking about. Do you want a protoss to just go pure high templar and win? I guess you're stuck in the mentality that "storm > bio" from SCBW. This is SC2, time to start over and learn a new game. Also storm is amazing against marines, who ever said it's supposed to be better?
It feels like many of you just want storm to be stronger like SCBW, even tho it's not the same game at all.
Do you want terran to go pure maradeur and win? Which is already happening.
EPT
