On April 04 2010 22:14 Slick348 wrote:And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
All of them. All bio raped by Collosi and Storm. All metal raped by Immortal (with help from Storm and Stalker). All non-BC air raped by Stalker. BCs (if you live that long) raped by Void Rays.
The most stupid game I've played this beta, I was 2 base vs 2 base vs Toss on Steppes. He A-moved my natural with an equal food army and won easily even though I had several preseiged tanks, a bunker in front, and EMPed most of his army.
Wrong lol, I find marines are the best starting off unit 1. Because it can attack both ground and air at a cost of 50 minerals each 2. In a group it can take down buildings, carriers, void rays, phoenix, zealots and archons if microd properly
Terran has such good units that your stupid for saying they all get raped. Colossus go down pretty vast by vikings(far range), banshees are good against fighting stalkers. Ghost has such good abilities, if they don't wanna nerf him then don't, but they need to change EMP(splash). Nukes(splash) are really good since you win the resource battle, you make him lose more resources than you lost by making the nuke. Raven's good, deploys a sentry bot and something else that does splash damage. Tanks(splash) are especially good. I could go on and on, but don't feel like repeating myself to 50 different ppl
Mmmmmm theorycraft is tasty isn't it?
So Vikings are good to use against Colossi, but Colossi do splash damage, so they'll kill off the Marines quickly and can tank some hits from the Vikings. 3 immediate attacks from Colossi guarantee a Marine barbeque, while it'd take 18 total hits from Vikings to kill one Colossus. If you intend to mass Vikings to kill Colossi faster, not only are they costlier than Marauders, they also have equal hit points, require more resources and have 1 less armor. If you intend to use Vikings in air form against Colossi, each Viking is going to do 10(+1) x 2 damage every 2 cooldown, while Marauders deal 10(+1) damage every 1.5 cooldown with +10(+1) damage bonus against the Colossi. That's pretty retarded.
Yes I agree Marauders are way too good for their cost and placement in the Terran tech tree. And I also believe that other Terran units need some changes, because they're really not as effective as you imply they are.
As for Banshees, Observers > them. Coincidentally Banshees can't attack air, which means even if you scan for Obs they can't get rid of them like Wraiths could back in SC1. So Stalkers > uncloaked Banshees, Stalkers + Observers >> Banshees. Terran can have Vikings paired with Banshees in order to deal with the Observers, but by doing so the Terran has definitely spent more on resources than the Protoss has.
As for the section about Marines, lol. If you have a video of you beating Carriers with Marines, put it on Youtube so I can laugh about someone who can't micro siege ranged capital ships against basic ranged infantry. Really though? That's like saying micro'd Marines can beat Guardians (or Carriers!) in SC1, which is possible but requires the Zerg/Protoss player to be completely inept. You want to hinge your position on that?
Void Rays I can accept, not sure why you threw Phoenii in there since Phoenii aren't expected to engage Marines, and Archons got their splash area nerfed to oblivion, which is unfortunate. If you have videos of micro'd Marines beating Chargelots, that'd be very cool to see too
Actually, food for food banshees are more efficient than stalkers in that fight. Banshee mass with viking support is pretty hard to deal with as P until you can feedback the banshees.
A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal.
I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games.
I'm quite sure the issue here is a marauder rush, not a midgame marauder mass, then attack. I mean, rushing 1-gate to cyber core to robo takes too long to defend well against a rush, and any terran scouting this will be able to initiate an attack before immortals can even start to pop out.
In Tone of ZvT, some Well-placed banelings can demolish an early M&M attack since the buff to 20/15.
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.
I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.
too bad roaches alone cant stand up to any type of marauder, or immortal army and are cheese for ZvZ vanilla fights in the North american servers ATM.
yep that is the problem with marauders wow somone gets it !
well Marauders and immortals are the counter to roachs /shrug
On April 06 2010 02:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Actually, food for food banshees are more efficient than stalkers in that fight. Banshee mass with viking support is pretty hard to deal with as P until you can feedback the banshees.
My mistake. Thanks for the clarification.
Pardon my reiteration, but in case it isn't clear my position isn't that Marauders are fine, just that TvP doesn't magically become okay if Marauders get nerfed and Terran are left alone after that.
On April 06 2010 02:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Actually, food for food banshees are more efficient than stalkers in that fight. Banshee mass with viking support is pretty hard to deal with as P until you can feedback the banshees.
My mistake. Thanks for the clarification.
Pardon my reiteration, but in case it isn't clear my position isn't that Marauders are fine, just that TvP doesn't magically become okay if Marauders get nerfed and Terran are left alone after that.
by the time you can mass the banshees tho you should have seen this with scouts and have gotten HT allready. Stalkers/ sentrys to deal with them at the start is more then enough then when you hit HT's he is done if he does not switch techs.
So after 15 pages of bitching posts...can we come back to the topic?
TvP Marauder Cheese
We don't talk about Collossi, Immortals or games that last 20 mins, we talk about cheese. About the Marauder rush against toss in the first minutes...the one where you barely finish your core have a few zealots and starts to pump a sentry or stalker while he kites your zealots and kills them one by one.
Someone show me some replays where toss can counter this and I will be happy.
Now the only SILLY idea I came up with this to put my 2 gases in his base while I scout...so his plan will be fucked up for a few minutes. Won't make me win but won't make me rage anymore.
btw I'm copper and when you do silly things people that do "tricks" found on the internet are often getting surprised and then they have to start to improvise. Ofc this wouldn't work for better player...
Anyways, show me some replays where toss counter this rush...all the math is boring, I like to SEE it
@ massairunits, do some proper research about vikings when you compare them to marauders.. vikings also have a bonus against armored (which all massive units are) so a viking does (10+4) x 2 = 28 per volley compared to the marauders 10+10 = 20. Vikings huge range whereas marauders get stuck by zealots when trying to kill a upgraded colossi makes the vikings very usefull for killing colossi.
As for marauder rushes, it can be stopped by the same fast stalkers that you do against reapers. Stalkers and marauders have bonusses against eachother and yes the marauder cost effectively beats the stalker but not by that much before stim comes around. Any terran that will use marauder rushes severely hurts his own economy and thus stalkers being less cost effective doesnt matter as much. If you use 1 chronoboost on a stalker the build time becomes 32, about the same as that of the marauder really. To fend this off you need to scout the aggresive rax opening, but given the existance of the reaper rush as well you need to scout reasonably fast against terran anyway. In that way i propose scouting on 9 supply. Build close to the nexus against T so you can pull probes easier when neccesary and give yourself more time, forwarding or creating a choke against terran isn't really useful. Against fast rax with tech lab, which means either reaper or marauder rushing, you go with a fast cybercore and a zealot. Save chronoboosts and chrono the stalkers. Stalkers with 1 zealot do fine against marauders, always make sure to send the zealot in first in which case they either focus on the zealot giving you free hits with the stalkers or switch to the stalkers in which case the zealot will get in some hits. Without stim it's not really possible for them to kite zealot/stalker as kiting the zealot will give your stalkers free hits. If they split their fire and target all your units with 1 marauder each they could theoretically but then they aren't focussing and your stalkers should win. Try to fight close to base and use probe's to function as the same role as the zealot when neccesary while keeping to chrono out stalkers. Add in a robo bay or stargate when you can, stargate counters marauders harder but given they will see it anyway i prefer the robo bay usually which is also cheaper on gas.
I don't think you should've revived a 1 month old thread for this.. the marauder rush discussed in this thread doesn't work anymore and it's precisely the reason why concussive shells was demoted to an upgrade instead of coming with the marauder straight out of the box. That's not to say that a 10 rax marauder build isn't annoying for protoss to handle, but none of the 14 previous pages hold any merit since they're from 2 patches ago.
On April 02 2010 09:00 Kare wrote: Zealots with charge and colossus would seriously RAPE a marine marauder army if they didnt have concussive blows, the charge would be way to good against it.
what? concussive blow doesn't do anything vs collosi, especially if they have upgraded range. Concussive blow loses its purpose as the game transitions into more ranged units for the toss, as seen in the replays it is blatantly imbalanced vs an early game toss.
I'm kind of confused on what you said but if you're saying protoss is imbalanced than i think you need to show me where Protoss wins in a TVP match between pros
Blizzard official stats have Protoss with a 54% win ratio over terran.
I'm kind of confused on what you said but if you're saying protoss is imbalanced than i think you need to show me where Protoss wins in a TVP match between pros
On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
They aren't a direct counter but I would argue that marauders are a good unit against the zealot.
Notice that this thread was created on APRIL 2nd now post-marauder nerf it is COMPLETELY different, they no longer start with slow... keep this in mind people, it is a 50/50 60 second upgrade.
EPT
