Ok, I have no idea if this is well known and widespread already, but since I couldn't find anything on search, here it is:
I got the idea today to play some terran for a change and try the pure Marauder rush.
The idea is to get them as fast as possible and see how tough it is to defend for protoss. People usually do this kind of build to go Reapers.
So I went with it, and this is what I ended up with:
10Barracks 10/11Refinery (not sure exactly but you get the point) 11supply
After Barracks is done, get the tech add-on. With the first 150minerals that don't interfere with Marauder timing, get the Orbital Command.
Keep pumping Marauders, rally them to the enemy base, and add second Barracks when the MULE does its magic. ======================== That's it. I played 4 TvPs with this, won all 4 and got compliments etc.
The key points are: - the build cuts SCVs severely to get the Marauders super fast - Marauders have the missiles that slow the enemy down which means Zealots don't ever get near Marauders - Stalker, which is the other unit you might encounter, is basically the unit Marauder is meant to counter
Its all the rage in Platinum at the moment. Its hilariously strong considering they're just spamming a single unit. They'll get around to fixing it eventually.
Without a three-way combination of a wall of Zealots to take the hits, Sentries to Force Field and Immortals to gun them down, you're pretty much screwed.
There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
On April 02 2010 08:46 Bibdy wrote: Its all the rage in Platinum at the moment. Its hilariously strong considering they're just spamming a single unit. They'll get around to fixing it eventually.
Without a three-way combination of a wall of Zealots to take the hits, Sentries to Force Field and Immortals to gun them down, you're pretty much screwed.
haha yeah, seemed so to me too
That's what you get Blizzard for introducing freak units to the natural habitats, now everything is screwwweeeeeeedd.
Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
Marauders need to stay the way they are. If not the zergs could just go mass banelings and just attack move the terran and win. The Marauders need to be strong to shield the marines.
On April 02 2010 08:56 Kare wrote: Marauders need to stay the way they are. If not the zergs could just go mass banelings and just attack move the terran and win. The Marauders need to be strong to shield the marines.
yeah i've run into this in platinum quite a bit, its a bitch to stop, I'm usually just able to stop them as long as i've added gates and continue to pump stalkers early with some sentrys. If/Once they get 2 or 3 marauders and u have nothing left tho its insta gg, probes suck way to much vs 120 hp stalkers, and stalkers spawning 1 at a time have no chance vs three marauders =[
On April 02 2010 08:56 Kare wrote: Marauders need to stay the way they are. If not the zergs could just go mass banelings and just attack move the terran and win. The Marauders need to be strong to shield the marines.
Zealots with charge and colossus would seriously RAPE a marine marauder army if they didnt have concussive blows, the charge would be way to good against it.
they can at least remove the ability to slow down the enemy...it's pretty hard to counter mass marauder cuz they are pretty good against any ground force... they're like Dragoons but smarter...
only way to be rid of marauders completely is with probes but with losing too much econ and the slowing attack should be gone because once units slow, it is like impossible to dodge HSM XD
They just need to do less damage to Light. 6 (+14 vs Armoured), or something.
Make them take longer to kill the Zealots if all they do is MASS Marauders. Then they'll start depending on Marines more and diversify their army a bit. Marauders aren't the ones that are supposed to be killing the Banelings and Zerglings. Just holding them at bay. They don't need to do so much damage to Light units.
This isn't strictly a cheese depending on how you approach it. I've seen a version that pro koreans use to open 1 rax maud and transition into FE, going for a macro game.
This counters 1 gate core tech into robo or twilight with few stalker/zealot
This is countered by gate-core that gets early sentries or a gate-core-gate build.
Proper priority is necessary because 1gate core robo can get an immortal out ridiculously fast.
All in all, this is a build that works well against what protosses are doing at the moment, but will be FD status at best once protosses adapt to it with 1gatecore (robo with sentry forcefield or 2gate macro)
On April 02 2010 09:00 Kare wrote: Zealots with charge and colossus would seriously RAPE a marine marauder army if they didnt have concussive blows, the charge would be way to good against it.
what? concussive blow doesn't do anything vs collosi, especially if they have upgraded range. Concussive blow loses its purpose as the game transitions into more ranged units for the toss, as seen in the replays it is blatantly imbalanced vs an early game toss.
On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
How do they NOT counter Zealots or Archons??? Zealots and Archons can't even touch them especially if micro'd properly with marines. Especially once they have EMP in there you might as well say GG (didn't say to say GG, said you might as well lol). As well as the tanks long range and splash damage it's real hard for protoss to get close to Terran.
On April 02 2010 09:00 Kare wrote: Zealots with charge and colossus would seriously RAPE a marine marauder army if they didnt have concussive blows, the charge would be way to good against it.
what? concussive blow doesn't do anything vs collosi, especially if they have upgraded range. Concussive blow loses its purpose as the game transitions into more ranged units for the toss, as seen in the replays it is blatantly imbalanced vs an early game toss.
I know it dosnt effect the collosus, but with the support of zealots with charge and colossus in the background nuking your army, you would get owned if you could not run and hit with slow.
On April 02 2010 09:00 Kare wrote: Zealots with charge and colossus would seriously RAPE a marine marauder army if they didnt have concussive blows, the charge would be way to good against it.
what? concussive blow doesn't do anything vs collosi, especially if they have upgraded range. Concussive blow loses its purpose as the game transitions into more ranged units for the toss, as seen in the replays it is blatantly imbalanced vs an early game toss.
I'm kind of confused on what you said but if you're saying protoss is imbalanced than i think you need to show me where Protoss wins in a TVP match between pros
On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
exactly, and as you may know, mass zealots + sentries are pretty hard to hold off if you're only doing marauders
if protoss is dumb enough to try and mass stalkers vs mass marauders its not really the terran players fault.
On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
exactly, and as you may know, mass zealots + sentries are pretty hard to hold off if you're only doing marauders
if protoss is dumb enough to try and mass stalkers vs mass marauders its not really the terran players fault.
It is almost impossible if they are good with the force fields.
They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward.
On April 02 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote: They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward.
FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS! It's always a slowly losing battly on Protoss end, as i seen in all PVT pro matches
They really should move the slow to at least a factory req upgrade or something. It's retardedly strong in all matchups, and basically negates the other player's micro ability. I don't like something that takes a skill and makes it worthless. Imagine if you couldn't dance around an FD push in BW. That's what fighting marauders is like. It reduces the skill requirement of the game and should be removed or at least delayed in the tech.
On April 02 2010 09:22 Floophead_III wrote: They really should move the slow to at least a factory req upgrade or something. It's retardedly strong in all matchups, and basically negates the other player's micro ability. I don't like something that takes a skill and makes it worthless. Imagine if you couldn't dance around an FD push in BW. That's what fighting marauders is like. It reduces the skill requirement of the game and should be removed or at least delayed in the tech.
But if you move slow up to factory, the Terran player will be utterly unable to hold any sort of map control till tech 2. Could you imagine what top players could do if they knew the Terran player really didn't have any way to pressure them pre-factory?
I'm not convinced early Marauder is unstoppable, but assuming a nerf was indeed required: Perhaps if marauders required an Engineering Bay along with the Tech Lab to build? Or perhaps the Tech Lab itself required an Engineering bay.
Well if they nerfed marauders they would have to boost mech, since marauders is lategametech for terrans atm as well. Forcefield is a very good counter to marauders, remember they are expensive and takes a long time to build, especially off 1rax.
On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
How do they NOT counter Zealots or Archons??? Zealots and Archons can't even touch them especially if micro'd properly with marines. Especially once they have EMP in there you might as well say GG (didn't say to say GG, said you might as well lol). As well as the tanks long range and splash damage it's real hard for protoss to get close to Terran.
Jinro said that maud can "fight" them and that it doesn't "counter" them.
Marauder (Maud) damages a Z by 10 hitpoints with each shot. A Z can tank 15 shots (iirc). Z does 14 damage to Maud, so it takes less than 10 hits for a Maud to kill Z.
When you consider two units' relation to each other you can't consider other units. For example, colossi hard counters bio, but if you add vikings the colossi becomes hard countered. This doesn't mean bio counters colossi. This means colossi counters bio and viking counter colossi.
So a more appropriate logic would be Zealot counter marauder, zealot is countered by hellions, etc. rather than saying that marauder counters zealot when you have emp or hellions.
On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
How do they NOT counter Zealots or Archons??? Zealots and Archons can't even touch them especially if micro'd properly with marines. Especially once they have EMP in there you might as well say GG (didn't say to say GG, said you might as well lol). As well as the tanks long range and splash damage it's real hard for protoss to get close to Terran.
The latest PlayXP tournaments (Korean site tournaments whose info was posted in TL) had T lose to P many cases (some of them being BO3 = multiple T loss to P per case)
Forcefield is a iffy counter to marauders as the range to put down a forcefield isn't THAT big and marauders with their speed and range can dance back quite well. On a map with a open middle ground it's rediculously hard to win the expansion game as protoss vs terran as they got such an easy way to fight in the middle.
The problem with marauders is that they are a the best kiting unit in the game with stim, which has a measly cost for marauders. A range or speed nerf would make this kiting much harder and would mostly affect the matchup against protoss without making them too weak against zerg imo. Toss just has no hard counters for them (1 immortal costs 3 marauders, voidrays die too hard against marines) and can't win vs a proper FE marauder build imo in this patch. The most annoying thing personally I find is that the marauder player can choose his battles much easier, if terran is outnumbered he can fall back and if toss isn't careful he will lose zealots if they get too far from the immortals. If toss however want's to fall back a stim later you lost 5+ units.
On April 02 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote: They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward.
A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal.
I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games.
The problem of course is getting to that healthy army because there's a timing window if the P goes 1gatecorerobo which is the typical protoss build right now. For this, the protoss shouldn't 1gatecore straight into robo, rather tech safely with 1gatecoregate with some sentries, zealots and stalkers.
It's a slow, painful loss for Protoss vs this kind of rush tactic. You can fight it off for a bit, but you are on your heels for so long that the Terran can expand and retain map control, and slowly break into your natural (if you even get it up and running).
dont change maradeurs, since im trying to change from p tot it would make me rage after all p nerfs =( plz dont! yes they are strong, but atm its anyway Z > T > P so... start with nerfing queen first or make z units more expensive before you try to change something else.
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
I know you're a good player but that statement is definitely not accurate. A more accurate statement is:
a PURE zealot army without charge will be stomped by a marauder army.
This isn't practical since if the protoss has a mixed army of stalkers and sentries and zealots, marauders don't do so well. Why? Marauders have to slow the zealot to kite them. But, marauders don't deal good dps to zealots (10/shot). during the time the marauders are kiting and focusing the zealots, stalkers and sentries damage the marauders with bonus and normal damage.
In real games times come when both armies have to engage each other, and when a clash happens, chargelots fight marauders very cost effectively. Not to mention sentries, colossi, and immortals.
On April 02 2010 09:19 Bibdy wrote: They'll win one fight with the Sentries, but when they run out of energy versus a constant stream of Marauders from 2 bases (if they had any sense they'd FE since you sure as hell aren't getting anywhere near the Marauders in the early game) its a slowly losing battle.
You simply can't deal enough damage to the Marauders before they kill your Zealot wall. Then the rest of your army (Immortals, Sentries and/or Stalkers) will fall to pieces.
It goes back and forth for a while, with the Terran slowly winning. The moment he pushes far enough to take out the Protoss' expansion, its over.
Losing one fight with mass Marauders doesn't mean instant loss. It just means you made him spend precious energy just to fight you, and isn't going to have enough to repeat that as you keep pushing forward.
A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal.
I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games.
The problem of course is getting to that healthy army because there's a timing window if the P goes 1gatecorerobo which is the typical protoss build right now. For this, the protoss shouldn't 1gatecore straight into robo, rather tech safely with 1gatecoregate with some sentries, zealots and stalkers.
I don't think the big issue is that you CAN'T defeat the all-Marauder army, it's that you need a mix of a bunch of different units to defeat an army made up of massing a single Tier 1.5 unit, and even then you still have to micro well and have the right proportions of units, while the Terran is probably just kiting and focus firing.
How about the Marauder's slow is not as great when built by default (maybe half as effective as now), and to get the full effect (like it is now), requires an upgrade?
The whole nerf marauder slow thing is just pathetic, I have seen many protosses deal with it. It is just the heat of the moment when you are loosing the game and the marauders seem op because you cant counter them correctly.
On April 02 2010 10:01 Kare wrote: The whole nerf marauder slow thing is just pathetic, I have seen many protosses deal with it. It is just the heat of the moment when you are loosing the game and the marauders seem op because you cant counter them correctly.
You've seen it. You haven't actually tried it.
You need three different types of units to take on a cluster of Marauders. Not one. Not two. Three. There is no direct "oh, just get a couple of these and smash them into a pulp" unit. You need to
A) Stop them kiting B) Actually kill them once you stop them kiting C) Give them something to shoot at which isn't going to cripple your ability to kill them
To satisfy A, you need to use Sentries to Force Field, which have limited energy. To satisfy B, you need Immortals or Stalkers to gun them down, and do a half-decent amount of damage to them. To satisfy C, you need a wall of Zealots. Something to make them do half-damage to while you gun them down.
If any one of those elements fails (out of energy, no Stalkers or Immortals to do decent damage or run out of Zealots) you either stand your ground and get blown up, or try and retreat and lose half of what you have left.
If the Terran constantly pushes with Marauders i.e. set rally points for 6 Barracks straight at your base, you can't keep up with the production, the constant back and forth, nor have the energy from constantly spawning 100 gas caster units to continuously take them on.
If you do the math, Marauders can take on Immortals cost-for-cost, even with the shield mechanic. Its not as simple as "Oh, just get a couple of Immortals and lol at him".
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
THANK YOU ORB!! Even if the zealots were able to get a couple of shots on the Mauraders they still would destroy the zealots. Seen a video of yours btw, wanted to see you go against a Terran player using Toss and see how you handle them. Find zealots are only used to absorb damage lately. Even though if they do destroy some of the opposing teams units they still lost more money than the terran.
It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
I know you're a good player but that statement is definitely not accurate. A more accurate statement is:
a PURE zealot army without charge will be stomped by a marauder army.
This isn't practical since if the protoss has a mixed army of stalkers and sentries and zealots, marauders don't do so well. Why? Marauders have to slow the zealot to kite them. But, marauders don't deal good dps to zealots (10/shot). during the time the marauders are kiting and focusing the zealots, stalkers and sentries damage the marauders with bonus and normal damage.
In real games times come when both armies have to engage each other, and when a clash happens, chargelots fight marauders very cost effectively. Not to mention sentries, colossi, and immortals.
If your gonna put combination into it, what could we do if there's Siege tanks,Marine and Maurader stimmed, Medic, with some Vikings to deal with Colossi and land them when the jobs done. Oh and maybe 1 or two ghost with EMP just to make the battle now impossible for Protoss to win
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
to the poster(s) above - HT's are the key vs that army you just listed - the standard zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals with HT's. that army alone counters that whole list you just mentioned.
The main problem in TvP right now is variation, the other T units don't do anything to protoss armies (and i've tried alotta shit) and so relying on the marauder is the only thing possible right now. My experience with TvP is - if terran doesn't win within the first 15 mins he's most likely gonna lose the game, i dunno how other terran players feel - but i can't say strong enough how shit the other units actually are vs protoss (except the battle cruiser).
If you've checked recent tournaments, terrans haven't been doing that great :S - i mean yes lucifron just won the tournament today, he was 1-1 vs dimaga then a defwin - and vs hasuobs he won 3-2 (was 0-2 down) - hasu could of taken it 3-0 if he kept his game face on. What i mean to say is - TvP i don't believe is swayed in the T favour at all, a week or 2 ago i would of said yeh, but it seems protoss players have become less stubborn and actually tech to HT's which annihilate terran armies given the mech route is not viable.
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
I know you're a good player but that statement is definitely not accurate. A more accurate statement is:
a PURE zealot army without charge will be stomped by a marauder army.
This isn't practical since if the protoss has a mixed army of stalkers and sentries and zealots, marauders don't do so well. Why? Marauders have to slow the zealot to kite them. But, marauders don't deal good dps to zealots (10/shot). during the time the marauders are kiting and focusing the zealots, stalkers and sentries damage the marauders with bonus and normal damage.
In real games times come when both armies have to engage each other, and when a clash happens, chargelots fight marauders very cost effectively. Not to mention sentries, colossi, and immortals.
If your gonna put combination into it, what could we do if there's Siege tanks,Marine and Maurader stimmed, Medic, with some Vikings to deal with Colossi and land them when the jobs done. Oh and maybe 1 or two ghost with EMP just to make the battle now impossible for Protoss to win
I noted that Zs, stalkers, and sentries can counter mauds without the help of colossi and immortals. The situations we're describing is different because sentries, stalkers, and zealots are all from the gateway, whereas tanks, medic, and vikings come from 2 additional facilities.
Also, the difference 1~2 colossi and immortals make is so much greater than the difference 1~2 tanks/medivacs/vikings make. Colossus hard counters bio with proper micro and immortals provide a timing attack opportunity for FEing terrans because it melts everything armored like the bunker. Sieged tanks can't be microed and without the ramp advantage they're not that difficult to kill. Vikings exist only to take down colossi, and they take heavy fire from stalkers.
This is what I've experienced in plat TvP since the beta. But for all I know I might be wrong. I'll actually try mid/lategame focusing on mass marauder myself and see how it fares up in platinum TvP. Right now I highly doubt that this would favor the terran vs a standard though.
On April 02 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote: to the poster above - HT's are the key vs that army you just listed - the standard zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals with HT's. that army alone counters that whole list you just mentioned.
The main problem in TvP right now is variation, the other T units don't do anything to protoss armies (and i've tried alotta shit) and so relying on the marauder is the only thing possible right now. My experience with TvP is - if terran doesn't win within the first 15 mins he's most likely gonna lose the game, i dunno how other terran players feel - but i can't say strong enough how shit the other units actually are vs protoss (except the battle cruiser).
Hit the nail on the head
This is exactly how I feel. Cheap strategies aside, a terran can ONLY rely on marauders or massed battlecruisers. As the main of the army
with marauders, the T has to win the game during the early/early-mid game
with battlecruisers, yamato is hard countered by feedback and by the time you have enough BCs the protoss can macro 1.5 times your army.
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
PlayXP tournaments features the top Korean players, such as Painkiller, Plot (aka Maka), Zeniowarra, and other well known players (Hyo, etc.). So I assure you the player's skills are at the top.
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
Hence why I believe slow should be researchable. It's not like marauders would be bad without slow. They'd just take a lot more skill to micro and not completely dominate every single gateway unit.
It's also a problem TvT, because if you don't get marauders you pretty much are stuck hiding behind bunkers hoping to god he doesn't break you because if your tank gets in range he can just chase it and kill it.
TvZ I'd say the fact that maras attack faster, do more damage, and have more range than roaches is more than enough without the slow.
The fact is, maras are kind of broken and don't require a high level of skill to use effectively, whereas fighting them takes an extraordinary amount of skill and even the best of the best can't do anything but hope they have enough units because they can't hit and run or anything micro-intensive.
I'm a terran player. I almost refuse to get maras because I think they're completely broken and overpowered. Unfortunately you pretty much have to get them TvT because the other player has broken maras too, and they really make life so much easier for you in every matchup because they're so goddamn overpowered. This is why all top terrans mass marauder right now.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt.
People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it.
On April 02 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote: to the poster above - HT's are the key vs that army you just listed - the standard zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals with HT's. that army alone counters that whole list you just mentioned.
The main problem in TvP right now is variation, the other T units don't do anything to protoss armies (and i've tried alotta shit) and so relying on the marauder is the only thing possible right now. My experience with TvP is - if terran doesn't win within the first 15 mins he's most likely gonna lose the game, i dunno how other terran players feel - but i can't say strong enough how shit the other units actually are vs protoss (except the battle cruiser).
Hit the nail on the head
This is exactly how I feel. Cheap strategies aside, a terran can ONLY rely on marauders or massed battlecruisers. As the main of the army
with marauders, the T has to win the game during the early/early-mid game
with battlecruisers, yamato is hard countered by feedback and by the time you have enough BCs the protoss can macro 1.5 times your army.
Well then why the heck would Terrans be opposed to a Marauder nerf? That one unit is just too good. Spread it around a bit and improve other units, letting Terrans diversify their army. Why are Terrans relying on only Marauders for their anti-armoured needs, when they've got Siege Tanks, Vikings and Banshees to use? As long as Marauders keep winning Terrans games, keeping them at that 'magical' win %, you're going to be constantly pigeon-holed into using them, because every other option sucks.
This isn't a L2P issue. Its one unit that can do everything out of the box and is really good at putting on pressure in the early game, single-handed, to give them enough advantage in the late game to win. Countering them early and getting enough breathing room just to expand out of his front door requires extraordinary lengths on the Protoss' part.
If Terran players feel like its their only option, and everyone else feels like they can't stop it unless they pull some cheese tactic, why would anyone be opposed to some changes? Doesn't make any sense to me.
I noted that Zs, stalkers, and sentries can counter mauds without the help of colossi and immortals. The situations we're describing is different because sentries, stalkers, and zealots are all from the gateway, whereas tanks, medic, and vikings come from 2 additional facilities.
Also, the difference 1~2 colossi and immortals make is so much greater than the difference 1~2 tanks/medivacs/vikings make. Colossus hard counters bio with proper micro and immortals provide a timing attack opportunity for FEing terrans because it melts everything armored like the bunker. Sieged tanks can't be microed and without the ramp advantage they're not that difficult to kill. Vikings exist only to take down colossi, and they take heavy fire from stalkers.
This is what I've experienced in plat TvP since the beta. But for all I know I might be wrong. I'll actually try mid/lategame focusing on mass marauder myself and see how it fares up in platinum TvP. Right now I highly doubt that this would favor the terran vs a standard though.[/QUOTE]
Well if we're gonna talk about things all from the gateway and everything all from the barrack the Protoss still loses, because with EMP at their side protoss losses. The Marine and Maurader stim destroys practically everything before they get close with macro and plus with emp makes everything so much easier. Plus the cost that Protoss would be losing would be more that the cost of what terran would be losing. Plus the terran builds faster than protoss, it's only a matter of time before they lose.
I'm pretty tired of typing, but please show me videos where protoss wins against a pro terran player...
P.S. I'm not saying that i'm right here, i'm just posting what i think. But EMP BY FAR NEEDS SOME NERFING TO BE DONE! Should only take of magic and not shields. Terran units have a unit to counter every single one of protoss units without the use of emp, emp just makes everything 10X worst for protoss.
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
Hence why I believe slow should be researchable. It's not like marauders would be bad without slow. They'd just take a lot more skill to micro and not completely dominate every single gateway unit.
It's also a problem TvT, because if you don't get marauders you pretty much are stuck hiding behind bunkers hoping to god he doesn't break you because if your tank gets in range he can just chase it and kill it.
TvZ I'd say the fact that maras attack faster, do more damage, and have more range than roaches is more than enough without the slow.
The fact is, maras are kind of broken and don't require a high level of skill to use effectively, whereas fighting them takes an extraordinary amount of skill and even the best of the best can't do anything but hope they have enough units because they can't hit and run or anything micro-intensive.
I'm a terran player. I almost refuse to get maras because I think they're completely broken and overpowered. Unfortunately you pretty much have to get them TvT because the other player has broken maras too, and they really make life so much easier for you in every matchup because they're so goddamn overpowered. This is why all top terrans mass marauder right now.
Dude... they really aren't overpowered.. and if they are, it's not nearly as much as what people are saying or terran would be dominating tournaments pretty easily. Like demuslim said, terran arent massing marauders because they are so good but more so because there are a lack of other quality options.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt.
People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it.
People really need to stop thinking only about their races.
However, I have to admit Maradeurs are not overpowered. The problem is that Terran doesn't have to diversify their strategy, they can only spam maradeurs all day long. That's totally wrong and its not how RTS games are played/made.
There is obivous problem with Maradeurs in current stage. Sure it has to be changed. We don't see much interesting games from T imho. All they try to do is outmass.
But I could say they are quite imbalanced in some way. It is very hard to get charge playing P. And you have to do some good micro as P. Whereas terran needs just stim-focus-run.
Maradeurs and overall terran mechanics DEFINITELY REQUIRE CHANGE.
On April 02 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote: to the poster above - HT's are the key vs that army you just listed - the standard zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals with HT's. that army alone counters that whole list you just mentioned.
The main problem in TvP right now is variation, the other T units don't do anything to protoss armies (and i've tried alotta shit) and so relying on the marauder is the only thing possible right now. My experience with TvP is - if terran doesn't win within the first 15 mins he's most likely gonna lose the game, i dunno how other terran players feel - but i can't say strong enough how shit the other units actually are vs protoss (except the battle cruiser).
Hit the nail on the head
This is exactly how I feel. Cheap strategies aside, a terran can ONLY rely on marauders or massed battlecruisers. As the main of the army
with marauders, the T has to win the game during the early/early-mid game
with battlecruisers, yamato is hard countered by feedback and by the time you have enough BCs the protoss can macro 1.5 times your army.
Well then why the heck would Terrans be opposed to a Marauder nerf? That one unit is just too good. Spread it around a bit and improve other units, letting Terrans diversify their army. Why are Terrans relying on only Marauders for their anti-armoured needs, when they've got Siege Tanks, Vikings and Banshees to use? As long as Marauders keep winning Terrans games, keeping them at that 'magical' win %, you're going to be constantly pigeon-holed into using them, because every other option sucks.
This isn't a L2P issue. Its one unit that can do everything out of the box and is really good at putting on pressure in the early game, single-handed, to give them enough advantage in the late game to win. Countering them early and getting enough breathing room just to expand out of his front door requires extraordinary lengths on the Protoss' part.
If Terran players feel like its their only option, and everyone else feels like they can't stop it unless they pull some cheese tactic, why would anyone be opposed to some changes? Doesn't make any sense to me.
It's not that Terrans want a homogenous play. It's just that people bring up how marauders are OP and they should be nerfed. But if Marauders are nerfed and no changes are made, TvP is in a very bad position. That's like nerfing immortals in PvZ but not doing anything else in another area to make up for the nerf.
I honestly want to see more factory play, and I was glad the Thor received somewhat of a buff in TvZ. But the truth is that factory is too cost inefficient right now.
I think ALL terran players who are sticking with terran from SCBW want a more viable factory play, because that's what we (at least I) fell in love with.
But only nerfing mauds without any other action is too much. That's exactly what terrans don't want.
On April 02 2010 09:46 -orb- wrote: Welcome to every single platinum pvt
edit: WOW LOL @ the people saying zealot counters marauder.
If the terran lets your zealots get a single hit on the marauders the terran is terrible.
Hence why I believe slow should be researchable. It's not like marauders would be bad without slow. They'd just take a lot more skill to micro and not completely dominate every single gateway unit.
It's also a problem TvT, because if you don't get marauders you pretty much are stuck hiding behind bunkers hoping to god he doesn't break you because if your tank gets in range he can just chase it and kill it.
TvZ I'd say the fact that maras attack faster, do more damage, and have more range than roaches is more than enough without the slow.
The fact is, maras are kind of broken and don't require a high level of skill to use effectively, whereas fighting them takes an extraordinary amount of skill and even the best of the best can't do anything but hope they have enough units because they can't hit and run or anything micro-intensive.
I'm a terran player. I almost refuse to get maras because I think they're completely broken and overpowered. Unfortunately you pretty much have to get them TvT because the other player has broken maras too, and they really make life so much easier for you in every matchup because they're so goddamn overpowered. This is why all top terrans mass marauder right now.
Dude... they really aren't overpowered.. and if they are, it's not nearly as much as what people are saying or terran would be dominating tournaments pretty easily. Like demuslim said, terran arent massing marauders because they are so good but more so because there are a lack of other quality options.
That's the problem. Any unit in RTS game shouldn't be massed and shouldn't be efficient vs everything.
I don't care what Demu says. He fights only for Terran favor and not overall game balance. That's not how progamers have to act. Shame on him
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt.
People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it.
One of the things I'm talking about, come up with things to back up your statement and not just say stupid and pointless things like "sound's like you need an ice pack", grow up... Sometimes there has to be some changes if things are clearly unbalanced. If there's a counter it must be a hella hard to counter it with the terran barely even trying, things like someone trying extremely hard comparing for someone doing something extremely easy counts in the balance section as well just in case you didn't know.
On April 02 2010 10:22 DeMusliM wrote: to the poster above - HT's are the key vs that army you just listed - the standard zealots/sentries/stalkers/immortals with HT's. that army alone counters that whole list you just mentioned.
The main problem in TvP right now is variation, the other T units don't do anything to protoss armies (and i've tried alotta shit) and so relying on the marauder is the only thing possible right now. My experience with TvP is - if terran doesn't win within the first 15 mins he's most likely gonna lose the game, i dunno how other terran players feel - but i can't say strong enough how shit the other units actually are vs protoss (except the battle cruiser).
Hit the nail on the head
This is exactly how I feel. Cheap strategies aside, a terran can ONLY rely on marauders or massed battlecruisers. As the main of the army
with marauders, the T has to win the game during the early/early-mid game
with battlecruisers, yamato is hard countered by feedback and by the time you have enough BCs the protoss can macro 1.5 times your army.
Well then why the heck would Terrans be opposed to a Marauder nerf? That one unit is just too good. Spread it around a bit and improve other units, letting Terrans diversify their army. Why are Terrans relying on only Marauders for their anti-armoured needs, when they've got Siege Tanks, Vikings and Banshees to use? As long as Marauders keep winning Terrans games, keeping them at that 'magical' win %, you're going to be constantly pigeon-holed into using them, because every other option sucks.
This isn't a L2P issue. Its one unit that can do everything out of the box and is really good at putting on pressure in the early game, single-handed, to give them enough advantage in the late game to win. Countering them early and getting enough breathing room just to expand out of his front door requires extraordinary lengths on the Protoss' part.
If Terran players feel like its their only option, and everyone else feels like they can't stop it unless they pull some cheese tactic, why would anyone be opposed to some changes? Doesn't make any sense to me.
It's not that Terrans want a homogenous play. It's just that people bring up how marauders are OP and they should be nerfed. But if Marauders are nerfed and no changes are made, TvP is in a very bad position. That's like nerfing immortals in PvZ but not doing anything else in another area to make up for the nerf.
I honestly want to see more factory play, and I was glad the Thor received somewhat of a buff in TvZ. But the truth is that factory is too cost inefficient right now.
I think ALL terran players who are sticking with terran from SCBW want a more viable factory play, because that's what we (at least I) fell in love with.
But only nerfing mauds without any other action is too much. That's exactly what terrans don't want.
There have been several occasions where they make a change, realise it has a huge impact, and make another to compensate. They nerf SCV health, they slow down DT production. They buff Stalker damage, but reduce bonus damage from upgrades. They buff Barracks build time, they nerf Reaper build time.
I think the bottom line is, when an army is capable of winning a game at a top level by spamming one unit, something has to change. I can't imagine we want to see or play a game like that. There'd be just as discussion if Zealots could steamroll through everything single-handed, but it turned out to be Protoss' 'only option'. Now that I think about it, that's actually what happened in the SC1 Beta, when they took away their speed, added the Citadul of Adun and slapped the upgrade on there.
To be fair. It seems the general consensus is that the marauder, the roach, and the immortal are completely broken units, but they counter each other in such a way that it balances the game, but forces you into certain tech paths.
Nerfing all of these units probably would create a more multidimensional game. We can all agree they're too strong, but you can't nerf one without nerfing the others to balance the game out. Roaches should be much weaker for their cost. Immortals shouldn't take less time to make than a stalker. Marauders shouldn't slow on hit, and definitely shouldn't cost less than a stalker when it can beat one at lower tech.
On April 02 2010 10:47 Floophead_III wrote: To be fair. It seems the general consensus is that the marauder, the roach, and the immortal are completely broken units, but they counter each other in such a way that it balances the game, but forces you into certain tech paths.
Nerfing all of these units probably would create a more multidimensional game. We can all agree they're too strong, but you can't nerf one without nerfing the others to balance the game out. Roaches should be much weaker for their cost. Immortals shouldn't take less time to make than a stalker. Marauders shouldn't slow on hit, and definitely shouldn't cost less than a stalker when it can beat one at lower tech.
Really don't see how the immortal is a overpowered unit when it can be countered by first tire units like the marine.
Keep in mind that i'm a zerg player and not a Protoss player. I'm just on the topic on how every TVP match i seen terran won and i've seen a lot of matches.
I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
I haven't experienced this push yet, but I can imagine that it would be powerful.
If they nerf maurds they need to only nerf them so they are affected early game. I think if the slow ability just required a research at the tech lab and costs 100/100 or 75/75 (either be cheep, take a long time, or a compromise) that should stop the early maurd push from being too powerful since zealots would actually be useful vs them.
Honestly, I didn't like maradeurs from the first day I saw them. I was thinking why would the put such great unit to low tech and make it cheap. Switching maradeurs with helions would've make more sense.
Maradeurs>Immortals. Terran gets four maradeurs to the cost of one Immortal. If there is EMP then Maradeurs>>>>>>Immortal.
Nerfing the slow, or turning it into tech, is a horrible, horrible idea. It would make Banelings way, way too good against Terrans. There'd be a massive window of opportunity before you got the upgrade where they could just steamroll over you.
Reducing Marauder damage vs Light units a little would be a great solution, I think. Make it so, if they want to spam that one unit, they have to kite Zealots across the entire map while Stalkers/Sentries/Immortals plod along at a snail's pace taking the odd pot-shot, making them a horrible, horrible choice. Right now they just kill them too damn quick, particularly when Stims enters the field, never giving the Protoss' ranged units a chance to cause any casualties.
Once that happens, Terrans will depend on Marines more, to take on those Zealots and won't have as many Marauders to decimate the remainder of the Protoss' army once the Zealots are dead. When all Zealots are dead and he has nothing but Immortals, Stalkers and Sentries versus a bunch of Marauders left...good luck. Cut down the number of Marauders, up the number of Marines they need to pull off this tactic (which is what they SHOULD be doing anyway) and things get more sensible.
I'd really like to see them do something with the Reaper, too. So we can see some more interesting T1/1.5 battles between all 3 options of each race. Not just 1 from Zerg, 1 from Terran and 3 from Protoss.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt.
People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it.
One of the things I'm talking about, come up with things to back up your statement and not just say stupid and pointless things like "sound's like you need an ice pack", grow up... Sometimes there has to be some changes if things are clearly unbalanced. If there's a counter it must be a hella hard to counter it with the terran barely even trying, things like someone trying extremely hard comparing for someone doing something extremely easy counts in the balance section as well just in case you didn't know.
This is a strategy forum. Despite all your complaining, you fail to offer any ideas or strategy to try to combat the marauders. They may be strong, but so are zealots in SC1. Are Zealots strong? Sure. We see them in every matchup. But they're not considered 'overpowered' because people have come up with ideas to combat them.
As for the Marauder deal, how about trying early harass builds? Air units? Colossi? Until Blizzard patches the game, there's nothing you can do but brainstorm ideas that might work.
On April 02 2010 10:52 discordfighting wrote: I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
It seems like lowering the cooldown of the zealots charge ability would solve alot of issues with mass marauders mid game. I've noticed zealots get the charge in grab a couple hits and then are left in the dust. A 5 second cooldown would allow zealots to put alot more pressure on marauders and make the zealot vs marauder dynamic a bit more favorable towards zealots the way it's supposed to be. Terran do need the slow mechanic as tier 1 to apply pressure effectively and to survive early cheese so buffing charge (the ability that APPEARS to be made to counter marauders) would make a lot of sense.
On April 02 2010 10:52 discordfighting wrote: I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
The problem is not hard counters related. The problem is that there's no better option than mass maras, no better option than making roaches, and no better option than making immortals, even vs their supposed hard counters. What we're looking for is a way to make marauders not the most overwhelmingly best choice, a choice so strong you can make them vs ANY protoss army and still be ok, even zealot/templar. It takes a lot of time to finally crumble to a protoss who makes the perfect army to fight you. Right now the marauder is totally the dragoon of sc2. It's stupid strong vs everything, BUT it's far better because you have stim and medivac healing, and slowing attack. If the dragoon was so strong you couldn't not make them in BW, marauders are so strong you can't even think about making anything else. That's the problem.
On April 02 2010 10:52 discordfighting wrote: I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
The problem is not hard counters related. The problem is that there's no better option than mass maras, no better option than making roaches, and no better option than making immortals, even vs their supposed hard counters. What we're looking for is a way to make marauders not the most overwhelmingly best choice, a choice so strong you can make them vs ANY protoss army and still be ok, even zealot/templar. It takes a lot of time to finally crumble to a protoss who makes the perfect army to fight you. Right now the marauder is totally the dragoon of sc2. It's stupid strong vs everything, BUT it's far better because you have stim and medivac healing, and slowing attack. If the dragoon was so strong you couldn't not make them in BW, marauders are so strong you can't even think about making anything else. That's the problem.
Oh no, I wasn't suggesting the root of the problem was hard counter related, but more that much on the conversation on this thread (and the strategy forums in general) is broken down to "hardcounter" this and "oh em eph gee imba" that.
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
On April 02 2010 11:36 sikatrix wrote: do we whine about the immortal slow in here too? or where. I also believe 90% of the toss saying marauders are op have never built a sentry.
Also, the difference 1~2 colossi and immortals make is so much greater than the difference 1~2 tanks/medivacs/vikings make. Colossus hard counters bio with proper micro and immortals provide a timing attack opportunity for FEing terrans because it melts everything armored like the bunker. Sieged tanks can't be microed and without the ramp advantage they're not that difficult to kill. Vikings exist only to take down colossi, and they take heavy fire from stalkers.
This is what I've experienced in plat TvP since the beta. But for all I know I might be wrong. I'll actually try mid/lategame focusing on mass marauder myself and see how it fares up in platinum TvP. Right now I highly doubt that this would favor the terran vs a standard though.
...right cause the vikings range is only 9(default value) and stalkers are range 6, you're just doing it wrong.
As someone mentioned, Marauders are really the staple of an early Terran army. The last patch really solidified this because it's really impossible to get out a large number of early marines. Your only options are Reapers or Marauders if you want a faster, early assault.
On April 02 2010 12:05 hellitsaboutme wrote: I'm sure maradeurs will be nerfed and some other thing will be buffed in coming patches.
It's too obvious that massed maradeurs make games monotonous and boring, which is not what Blizzard wants.
I agree, it is boring. The game needs diversity. I can't see them nerfing Marauders though because they already did a substantial nerf to Marines. Marauder are the only solid unit you can really mass early on.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
need an ice pack? You sound really butthurt.
People really need to stop complaining and start coming up with ideas of how to play the system, not on how to redesign it.
Once zealots get charge the game becomes much more even. The problem is early game before zealots even have charge. It's just ridiculously stupid how hard it is to kill pure marauders. Even if Protoss makes sentries and does really well with force fields, most of the maps have such wide chokes at the natural that it's dam hard to get enough force fields out in order to stop them from kiting. Keep in mind that you not only need sentries to force field you also need the gas for Immortals or stalkers if you're really hurting for gas in order to even damage the marauders.
A good player will not let his marauders take a single dam hit in early game PvT.
Also, the difference 1~2 colossi and immortals make is so much greater than the difference 1~2 tanks/medivacs/vikings make. Colossus hard counters bio with proper micro and immortals provide a timing attack opportunity for FEing terrans because it melts everything armored like the bunker. Sieged tanks can't be microed and without the ramp advantage they're not that difficult to kill. Vikings exist only to take down colossi, and they take heavy fire from stalkers.
This is what I've experienced in plat TvP since the beta. But for all I know I might be wrong. I'll actually try mid/lategame focusing on mass marauder myself and see how it fares up in platinum TvP. Right now I highly doubt that this would favor the terran vs a standard though.
...right cause the vikings range is only 9(default value) and stalkers are range 6, you're just doing it wrong.
In a p unit formation, colossi are in the back or in the middle. Zealots and stalkers are in the front. You simply have to back off your colos, and if the vikings follow the colossi, stalkers between the two units can attack them.
By "you're just doing it wrong" logic, once sieged tanks come out, every P and Z would have to go air because sieged tanks outrange all ground units.
On April 02 2010 10:52 discordfighting wrote: I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
This times infinity. I think that the phrase 'hard counter' should be temporarily banned on teamliquid until people stop using it excessively and using it too describe any situation that a unit beats another unit. I know what I just said is impossible but it really is ridiculous.
I am now going to describe Starcraft 1s unit interactions with the current lingo that is used in the SC2 beta forums.
Defiler hard counters bio. Tanks hard counter Hydralisks. Goliaths hard counter Mutalisks. Vessals hard counter Defilers. Zealots hard counter tanks. Goons hard counter Vultures. Archons hard counter mutalisks. Lurkers hard counter Zealots.
What I just said sounds totally ridiculous right? I think we seriously need to correct how we describe things here because certain phrases such as 'hard counter' over simplify things WAY too much and in the end it will be harder to really discuss strategy if we use phrases that are so black and white.
Also, the difference 1~2 colossi and immortals make is so much greater than the difference 1~2 tanks/medivacs/vikings make. Colossus hard counters bio with proper micro and immortals provide a timing attack opportunity for FEing terrans because it melts everything armored like the bunker. Sieged tanks can't be microed and without the ramp advantage they're not that difficult to kill. Vikings exist only to take down colossi, and they take heavy fire from stalkers.
This is what I've experienced in plat TvP since the beta. But for all I know I might be wrong. I'll actually try mid/lategame focusing on mass marauder myself and see how it fares up in platinum TvP. Right now I highly doubt that this would favor the terran vs a standard though.
...right cause the vikings range is only 9(default value) and stalkers are range 6, you're just doing it wrong.
In a p unit formation, colossi are in the back or in the middle. Zealots and stalkers are in the front. You simply have to back off your colos, and if the vikings follow the colossi, stalkers between the two units can attack them.
By "you're just doing it wrong" logic, once sieged tanks come out, every P and Z would have to go air because sieged tanks outrange all ground units.
Cannot vikings flank? The are flying units. 3 Vikings slighly more expensive than one colossus. If you lose one or two viking while attackin a colossus that's worth it. Believe me. Remember stalkers still have to fight maradeurs.
With a decent micro it's pretty easy to take out colossus. Top players are not buildin colossus anymore coz vikings easily counter them.
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS
You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk.
If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!"
And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays?
You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously.
The thread was originally about a particular Terran build order. Not so much the giant ball of marauders itself.
Yes, late game a well mixed protoss army can defeat a large blob of marauders. What the OP was about, (and this is something i've been seriously struggling with myself), is the 10-rax rallied straight to your base marauder build.
The first marauder shows up as your cyber core is finishing. With micro, a marauder defeats one zealot without taking a hit. One on one, a marauder defeats a stalker. The mix of units needed to beat off the super early marauder push is very hard to get quickly. Myself, Storr, and Orb just did some practice games in trying to hold this off, and yes, sometimes the protoss was able to fend it off. That is, with two gateways in their own base they were able to defeat 1 rax attack from across the map. That's seriously messed up.
After 4 or 5 minutes of intense micro battles, the terran has to retreat. The end result though is that the Terran has been building 100/25 units off of one barracks, while the toss has been making a mix of 100/0, 125/50, and 50/100 units off of two gates. Once this early game dance is over, the Terran usually has an expansion up, 4-5 more barracks starting to build, and is ready to start the midgame. The protoss on the other hand is still exhausted thinking, "holy shit I just barely held that off".
I don't mind marauders that much later in the game. It's the super fast 1 or 2rax pushes that crush me consistently. And many of the times that I do hold those rushes off it's because my opponent does not have great micro, and my zealots killed marauders.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge)
I loled hard... Be serious if you have zealots with charge and can't kill marauders you get getting out resources + macroed. A marauder needs to hit a single zealot 15 freakin times.
which means maradeurs beat all basic tier 1 units or any combination cost to cost. That is pretty clear it's overpowered in it's tech depth. If there is any balance, then it is stupid balance. Why protoss has to fight terran tier1 units with high tech units (Immortals/HT)?
For people who say charged zealots counter maradeur: Do you even know how expensive and time consuming to get that upgrade? You cannot keep up with terran's mass maradeurs, any slight delay in army production is autolose.
You guys are spending more effort arguing with slick than simply directing him to a replay where maruaders gets destroyed by protoss. How about just pointing some out?
I'm terran myself and even I have to admit that the unit pretty cheesy.
i don't see sentries and zealots happening in that time frame - those replays are indeed disturbing. and i dont want choke cannon to become obligatory right off the bat either -.-
TvP is a nightmare, honestly. From my experience in the last few days, the only games that go beyond early-mid game are ones where some sort of early rush or push has failed. The chance that both players will play even remotely "standard" is nil. Things were bad with the SCV/Marine rush, but now that it's been completely overnerfed, things are even more messed up.
Terrans are using this Marauder strategy and owning any hints of early tech Protoss has. Protoss respond by just going proxy 2gate, which is a pain in the ass to deal with considering SCV numbers and hp, and Marine build time.
If for some reason neither of those happen (or in some cases even if), it's normally early banshees or one of the quick immortal pushes that are so damn effective.
I'd love to see some action taken vs this specifically that doesn't have any serious impact on other parts of the game, but I just don't see it happening. PvT is pretty far protoss favored in the lategame, and a straight up nerf to Marauders isn't going to make things any easier. At least not while terran mech is so laughably countered in the matchup.
On April 02 2010 10:52 discordfighting wrote: I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
This times infinity. I think that the phrase 'hard counter' should be temporarily banned on teamliquid until people stop using it excessively and using it too describe any situation that a unit beats another unit. I know what I just said is impossible but it really is ridiculous.
I am now going to describe Starcraft 1s unit interactions with the current lingo that is used in the SC2 beta forums.
Defiler hard counters bio. Tanks hard counter Hydralisks. Goliaths hard counter Mutalisks. Vessals hard counter Defilers. Zealots hard counter tanks. Goons hard counter Vultures. Archons hard counter mutalisks. Lurkers hard counter Zealots.
What I just said sounds totally ridiculous right? I think we seriously need to correct how we describe things here because certain phrases such as 'hard counter' over simplify things WAY too much and in the end it will be harder to really discuss strategy if we use phrases that are so black and white.
I'll probably get flamed for this but whatever.
It seems to me that most units could outmicro their hardcounter in SC1 (you could unsiege a tank and kite the zealots chasing you, or you could spread out your mutalisks to kill an archon).
However, most hardcounters in SC2 are nearly impossible to outmicro in my experience, but I could be wrong on that. For example, Immortals versus pure Siege tanks on low ground will always win. I guess stimmed marines can outmicro banelings, but it's still not as common.
On April 02 2010 14:33 Haemonculus wrote: The thread was originally about a particular Terran build order. Not so much the giant ball of marauders itself.
Yes, late game a well mixed protoss army can defeat a large blob of marauders. What the OP was about, (and this is something i've been seriously struggling with myself), is the 10-rax rallied straight to your base marauder build.
The first marauder shows up as your cyber core is finishing. With micro, a marauder defeats one zealot without taking a hit. One on one, a marauder defeats a stalker. The mix of units needed to beat off the super early marauder push is very hard to get quickly. Myself, Storr, and Orb just did some practice games in trying to hold this off, and yes, sometimes the protoss was able to fend it off. That is, with two gateways in their own base they were able to defeat 1 rax attack from across the map. That's seriously messed up.
After 4 or 5 minutes of intense micro battles, the terran has to retreat. The end result though is that the Terran has been building 100/25 units off of one barracks, while the toss has been making a mix of 100/0, 125/50, and 50/100 units off of two gates. Once this early game dance is over, the Terran usually has an expansion up, 4-5 more barracks starting to build, and is ready to start the midgame. The protoss on the other hand is still exhausted thinking, "holy shit I just barely held that off".
I don't mind marauders that much later in the game. It's the super fast 1 or 2rax pushes that crush me consistently. And many of the times that I do hold those rushes off it's because my opponent does not have great micro, and my zealots killed marauders.
THANK YOU for that post^^. I had the pleasure of trying to deal with that "rally your first marauder into the P base" deal too and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what to do against it. Glad to see that better players than me are equally lost. And he's right, marauders overpowered or not aside, this thread is about a particular opening terran can do against toss. My best attempt at holding it off so far has been sacking my first zealot and praying for a sentry. Since one marauder kills a zealot reasonably slowly, as long as you're not fighting in your base you can hopefully get a forcefield up to keep maraudery out for long enough to get the aforementioned unit mix.
On April 02 2010 14:33 Haemonculus wrote: The thread was originally about a particular Terran build order. Not so much the giant ball of marauders itself.
Yes, late game a well mixed protoss army can defeat a large blob of marauders. What the OP was about, (and this is something i've been seriously struggling with myself), is the 10-rax rallied straight to your base marauder build.
The first marauder shows up as your cyber core is finishing. With micro, a marauder defeats one zealot without taking a hit. One on one, a marauder defeats a stalker. The mix of units needed to beat off the super early marauder push is very hard to get quickly. Myself, Storr, and Orb just did some practice games in trying to hold this off, and yes, sometimes the protoss was able to fend it off. That is, with two gateways in their own base they were able to defeat 1 rax attack from across the map. That's seriously messed up.
After 4 or 5 minutes of intense micro battles, the terran has to retreat. The end result though is that the Terran has been building 100/25 units off of one barracks, while the toss has been making a mix of 100/0, 125/50, and 50/100 units off of two gates. Once this early game dance is over, the Terran usually has an expansion up, 4-5 more barracks starting to build, and is ready to start the midgame. The protoss on the other hand is still exhausted thinking, "holy shit I just barely held that off".
I don't mind marauders that much later in the game. It's the super fast 1 or 2rax pushes that crush me consistently. And many of the times that I do hold those rushes off it's because my opponent does not have great micro, and my zealots killed marauders.
THANK YOU for that post^^. I had the pleasure of trying to deal with that "rally your first marauder into the P base" deal too and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what to do against it. Glad to see that better players than me are equally lost. And he's right, marauders overpowered or not aside, this thread is about a particular opening terran can do against toss. My best attempt at holding it off so far has been sacking my first zealot and praying for a sentry. Since one marauder kills a zealot reasonably slowly, as long as you're not fighting in your base you can hopefully get a forcefield up to keep maraudery out for long enough to get the aforementioned unit mix.
This is definitely a very effective rush versus Protoss. I believe that the fix for Marauder should be to nerf (but not remove) the slowing effect. Firebats had splash damage, and without something for the Marauders T early game would be dominated by Zerg as has been discussed already. Currently the slow is roughly 1.3 seconds, I think a simple 50% reduction would properly balance the Marauder. They would still fair well versus Roaches, and with Evac and Marine support Hydras, however, at the same time the slow would be short enough that even with micro a Zealot can still get a hit in on the Marauder as it runs away - this would give Protoss at least an option to counter the fast-rax Marauder rush. Any thoughts?
i agree marauder is too strong, however, just nerfing the marauder will have large implications to tvt and tvz. A delicate touch is needed here. i'd like to see marines and reactors changed back to their old build times. 45 hp scvs are more than enough to stop the cheese, I don't see the point in making early marines such a terrible strategy. if building marines early on was actually a viable strategy, then a nerf to marauders would not be so crippling to terran.
currently marines build longer than chronoboosted immortal and reactor builds the same time like 2nd barraks. nerfing marauders will be like last nail in the coffin for terran lol, this race has no decent unit left ...
ps. i would rather see delaying them by increasing back price of techlab than nerfing them -.-
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
I agree with some of the points that you make. The only thing that needs to be nerfed with marauder is the concussive grenade or whatever its called. They already do 20 dmg to most units they dont need to slow them down also. I fail to see why a stalker costs more than this unit. Because it can blink? So what? I mean its a cool ability and it has its uses but concussive grenade is passive and is way more useful than blink. Perhaps its because Stalkers do air dmg? That's the only reason I can think of.
On April 02 2010 17:00 lol_WomensRights wrote: currently marines build longer than chronoboosted immortal and reactor builds the same time like 2nd barraks. nerfing marauders will be like last nail in the coffin for terran lol, this race has no decent unit left ...
ps. i would rather see delaying them by increasing back price of techlab than nerfing them -.-
What you say about the marine's build time is true however, immortals cost over five times as much as marines and you can only build 1 per robo bay.
I'm willing to bet most of the people in here that are complaining about terran, or specifically marauders being overpowered, A) Aren't platinum level players B) Haven't played terran enough to know it's weaknesses and C) play shitty builds repeatedly expecting blizzard to fix the shittiness of their build for them.
1 gate core is fucking bad, I don't care how many times you see people do it on youtube, 1 gate is going to lose to 3 rax every god damned time.
My challenge to you fucking idiots, get to platinum first so this test actually matters, then play terran for 200 games without building a single marauder. Just fucking try it, be sure to let me know when you revolutionize every matchup because as it stands, they're terran's lynchpin muscle unit. Marines are awful against storm, collosi and roaches(roaches have 2 armor un-upgraded meaning marines have 1/3rd their HP and 1/4th their damage). So we can't use marines, we can't use hellions because they're fucking awful against anything that isn't like(ie everything that matters), thors are completely useless because of the immortal shield functionality, siege tanks die too quickly and easily to be cost efficient, vikings are complete shit when they're not in fighter mode, so what does that leave us. Am I only allowed to mass ghosts and battlecruisers just because some fucking idiot kid can't realize that it's not intelligent to do a fucking greedy tech build every game?
There should be a new rule that anything C or below on Iccup, or plat and below on SC2 can't make balance change posts.
Way to many people here are pretty much going into unit specific counters and completely ignore the fact that a army consists of more than 1 unit after a while.
Is the marauder slow broken vs early game toss? I dont know, I can only see it work on some maps tbh and even then a competent toss who scouts early should be able to stop it without unreasonable losses. It could be a BO win, but doesnt that exist in all matchups in BW aswell?
Why not? Even with mules you will be economically behind the toss in the midgame if he holds it off and have used maybe just 2 Chronos on his gateways early and then make probes.
I'm not saying this is not broken, but if it comes to something that can be standardized it's just the same as in BW. If that's the case, eventually Terran players wont be able to make this work effectively and their midgame is screwed and thus will make more economical buildorders.
So again, let's say this maruader push is impossible to fend off regardless of what you do, and even if you do fend it off - you're left with 2 probes and 1 zeal when it's over and if that's the only way you can fend it off, then yes, it's completely broken.
Regardless, people seem to think that you should be able to hold anything off with standard play..
Lay off the "cool story bro" comments, it just makes you look incredibly stupid btw.
On April 02 2010 17:54 yarkO wrote: so protoss should open 2 gate zealot to counter 10rax marauder rush? ye that totally makes sense lol
platinum level advice, thanks bro.
No, just go 1 gatecorerobo all the time and become flustered when it gets rolled by a build that cuts scv production for the early marauder harass. Are you seriously perplexed that a build that is geared towards punishing greedy builds actually beats a greedy build?
If the marauder harass fails, the terran is extremely behind in terms of eco/tech. It became popular because 1gatecorerobo is so popular since it gives protoss a huge edge late game, and there is a window of time where terran can do a timing attack and punish it.
On April 02 2010 17:54 yarkO wrote: so protoss should open 2 gate zealot to counter 10rax marauder rush? ye that totally makes sense lol
platinum level advice, thanks bro.
No, just go 1 gatecorerobo all the time and become flustered when it gets rolled by a build that cuts scv production for the early marauder harass. Are you seriously perplexed that a build that is geared towards punishing greedy builds actually beats a greedy build?
If the marauder harass fails, the terran is extremely behind in terms of eco/tech. It became popular because 1gatecorerobo is so popular since it gives protoss a huge edge late game, and there is a window of time where terran can do a timing attack and punish it.
The guy I was replying too said going 1gatecore is a stupid, greedy opening. 3 posts came up between me hitting reply and it posting. It's funny because the OP isn't about 1gatecorerobo vs 3gate marauders, it's 10rax that pushes the first marauder into your base as your Core is finishing (in a standard build).
1 gate core is fucking bad, I don't care how many times you see people do it on youtube, 1 gate is going to lose to 3 rax every god damned time.
On April 02 2010 17:54 yarkO wrote: so protoss should open 2 gate zealot to counter 10rax marauder rush? ye that totally makes sense lol
platinum level advice, thanks bro.
No, just go 1 gatecorerobo all the time and become flustered when it gets rolled by a build that cuts scv production for the early marauder harass. Are you seriously perplexed that a build that is geared towards punishing greedy builds actually beats a greedy build?
If the marauder harass fails, the terran is extremely behind in terms of eco/tech. It became popular because 1gatecorerobo is so popular since it gives protoss a huge edge late game, and there is a window of time where terran can do a timing attack and punish it.
The guy I was replying too said going 1gatecore is a stupid, greedy opening. 3 posts came up between me hitting reply and it posting. It's funny because the OP isn't about 1gatecorerobo vs 3gate marauders, it's 10rax that pushes the first marauder into your base as your Core is finishing (in a standard build).
1 gate core is fucking bad, I don't care how many times you see people do it on youtube, 1 gate is going to lose to 3 rax every god damned time.
i'm failing to see how a 1gatecore build where the marauder arrives as core can finish can be noticeably different from a 1gatecorerobo
being forced to go 2gate vs a super quick marauder push isn't bad..i mean you have to tailor your build to react. Of course 1gatecore is gonna make less units than 2gate and has a larger window of punishment
if it becomes indefensible or terran always gets a ridiculous advantage when they do this then it should be changed.
If you went 2gate and saved Chrono, you could probably chase the Marauder around until the 2nd one arrives instead of losing your first Zealot to the first Marauder.
I honestly don't see what you are trying to argue against. Nobody is saying Marauders in general are too strong, and nobody is saying that you can't defend it no matter what. The problem is that you are so far behind from the defense that the Terran can literally do whatever he wants to win in the mid-game.
i play random and i find protoss to be weakest atm, even though toss did fairly well in the invitational tournament, which is a reason to believe otherwise. vs terran it seems like toss has to open gate, core gate and get lotsa stalkers out asap, its good vs reapers, 10rax marauder and also vs banshees. depending on what terran is going for, the robobay needs to be delayed for a bit, sometimes even a stargate should be built first to counter the first few banshees, even though you would still need a robobay fairly quick there.
Summary: I make 2 zealots chrono'd before stalker after I scout abnormal fast gas, then go 2 gate -> robo. After periodically sacrificing zealots but keeping my stalkers alive under his marauder pressure, when I had 3 immortals I pushed out before he had stim or ghosts and cleaned out all his marauders.
I think the key with any marauder pressure is : don't walk around the map with your stalkers in front, and figure out when the guy is expanding so you can either counter or expand in a timely manner. Lead with a probe preferably or secondarily a zealot. I lost innumerable pvts by wandering around with my stalker-zealot in the early game only to have the other guy going 2 rax marauder and loosing both of them. You need to keep your unit count up especially on a map with no 1 forcefield block.
Since the very beginning I dont see the point of having Marauders a slow down attack - there is no early counter about it... they are good agains zealots and stalkers and the micro is way to easy since the slowdown is so extrem.
Against Zerg it doesn't matter much. Roaches have less range, speedlings are even way too fast and anyway most cases die when they are hit, however they still have a lot of HP to meatwall banelings. And all you terrans, how about getting 1 or 2 tanks with you against banelings, beside your beloved MMM army...
On April 02 2010 18:31 yarkO wrote: If you went 2gate and saved Chrono, you could probably chase the Marauder around until the 2nd one arrives instead of losing your first Zealot to the first Marauder.
I honestly don't see what you are trying to argue against. Nobody is saying Marauders in general are too strong, and nobody is saying that you can't defend it no matter what. The problem is that you are so far behind from the defense that the Terran can literally do whatever he wants to win in the mid-game.
10rax marauder does not let the terran get into the mid-game with a strong eco unless
A) he does significant damage (kill alot of probes) B) Toss completely overreacts and drops something crazy like 2-3 extra gates
Its a very low eco build that shines in the 3-4 minute mark where toss is either just finishing their core (in case of 1gatecore) or 2nd gate is finished and core is being dropped (in case of 2gate core)
As toss if I don't scout this early I have problems against this, I've been having a little more success with pulling 2-3 probes to corner/block the first marauder which gives me enough time to chornoboost a stalker by the time the 2nd marauder comes. It could be the case of that I'm outmicroing the guy completely and that in pro level it might not work, but in mid plat it seems to be working out alright.
I do think its defendable, but I've noticed Im lot more afraid of going 1gatecorerobo in PvT.
On April 02 2010 18:54 Aelfric wrote: can someone post a replay where this build actually countered ?
Its countered here
On April 02 2010 18:48 Trap wrote: Here's a replay of me as toss beating some 11/11 rax marauder proxied (I'm 9th plat EU div1). http://www.mediafire.com/?eny1zy1jwmy
Summary: I make 2 zealots chrono'd before stalker after I scout abnormal fast gas, then go 2 gate -> robo. After periodically sacrificing zealots but keeping my stalkers alive under his marauder pressure, when I had 3 immortals I pushed out before he had stim or ghosts and cleaned out all his marauders.
I think the key with any marauder pressure is : don't walk around the map with your stalkers in front, and figure out when the guy is expanding so you can either counter or expand in a timely manner. Lead with a probe preferably or secondarily a zealot. I lost innumerable pvts by wandering around with my stalker-zealot in the early game only to have the other guy going 2 rax marauder and loosing both of them. You need to keep your unit count up especially on a map with no 1 forcefield block.
While not strictly the same build, marauders enter the base at 4:00 (replay time)
Actually instead of double pumping marauders from 2 rax..might be better to have marauders come out of one and rines out of the other, marauders just take so long to kill zealots and you're only slowing one at a time anyways
On April 02 2010 18:49 GoDannY wrote: Since the very beginning I dont see the point of having Marauders a slow down attack - there is no early counter about it... they are good agains zealots and stalkers and the micro is way to easy since the slowdown is so extrem.
Against Zerg it doesn't matter much. Roaches have less range, speedlings are even way too fast and anyway most cases die when they are hit, however they still have a lot of HP to meatwall banelings. And all you terrans, how about getting 1 or 2 tanks with you against banelings, beside your beloved MMM army...
I cant belive that people are actually questioning the Marauder slow.. Yes it's very strong earlygame in certain situations, but so are let's say the speed of speedlings vs MM, and Zealots vs Lings in general and hydras vs everything etc. It's still down to unit specific countering, which I just feel is a stupid way to approach a game like this. Sure they need to be considered when you create a army composition, but what leads up to that army composition is what matters.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
I actually rofl'd at your post, yer marauders are pretty op, but saying toss need more splash damage?!?!?! You have collos and storm, you don't need anymore splash damage apart from maybe some air splash. I think toss is probably the most thought out, apart from air maybe. Just because one unit is slightly OP doesn't mean your race is now shit.
I think a simple 8+12 instead of 10+10 might be the solution. Like someone already suggested, making Zealots survive a bit longer could be enough to hold it off completely, at least if the protoss knows what he needs to do.
Blizzard just made the tech lab more convenient to get in the next patch, to promote Reapers, so they probably won't touch the timings/costs of the tech lab. So my guess is we'll probably see the damage nerf for Marauders.
On April 02 2010 18:48 Trap wrote: Here's a replay of me as toss beating some 11/11 rax marauder proxied (I'm 9th plat EU div1). http://www.mediafire.com/?eny1zy1jwmy
Summary: I make 2 zealots chrono'd before stalker after I scout abnormal fast gas, then go 2 gate -> robo. After periodically sacrificing zealots but keeping my stalkers alive under his marauder pressure, when I had 3 immortals I pushed out before he had stim or ghosts and cleaned out all his marauders.
I think the key with any marauder pressure is : don't walk around the map with your stalkers in front, and figure out when the guy is expanding so you can either counter or expand in a timely manner. Lead with a probe preferably or secondarily a zealot. I lost innumerable pvts by wandering around with my stalker-zealot in the early game only to have the other guy going 2 rax marauder and loosing both of them. You need to keep your unit count up especially on a map with no 1 forcefield block.
The problem with the 2 zealots is that if Terran goes reapers you pretty much lost a bunch of probes and even maybe your zealots.Which ofc is not game end but its not the best possible way to start a game.
What this game really need is a rebalance of roach vs marauder vs immortal. make them all less powerfull and lower immortals min cost. It's just lame that these 3 units dominate the early game strategy options.
On April 02 2010 18:48 Trap wrote: Here's a replay of me as toss beating some 11/11 rax marauder proxied (I'm 9th plat EU div1). http://www.mediafire.com/?eny1zy1jwmy
Summary: I make 2 zealots chrono'd before stalker after I scout abnormal fast gas, then go 2 gate -> robo. After periodically sacrificing zealots but keeping my stalkers alive under his marauder pressure, when I had 3 immortals I pushed out before he had stim or ghosts and cleaned out all his marauders.
I think the key with any marauder pressure is : don't walk around the map with your stalkers in front, and figure out when the guy is expanding so you can either counter or expand in a timely manner. Lead with a probe preferably or secondarily a zealot. I lost innumerable pvts by wandering around with my stalker-zealot in the early game only to have the other guy going 2 rax marauder and loosing both of them. You need to keep your unit count up especially on a map with no 1 forcefield block.
The problem with the 2 zealots is that if Terran goes reapers you pretty much lost a bunch of probes and even maybe your zealots.Which ofc is not game end but its not the best possible way to start a game.
I don't problems with early reapers anymore and I always open with at least 1 zealot. Threaten to surround the reaper with 4 probes when it gets close then chase it with the zealot. Buys enough time to get a stalker in your mineral line.You can chrono 2 zealots in the time it takes to build your core so it's not a problem of how many zealots; just an issue of "I'd rather be safe than dead", and my early game PvT revolves on having a healthy number of zealots anyways.
Instead of nerfing marauder damage I would prefer if they nerfed their durability and/or the slow. For example: losing their one base armor(and maybe 5 hp) would help zeals/lings/marines a lot, since they deal lots of low damage attacks. There are several options for the slow. - Making it a research, so it's no longer available for an early rush and the terran has to invest time and resources into it - It would simply slow less(maybe with some kind of stacking up to the old value with multiple marauders attacking the same target) - Making marauders slower, so the slow would be more of a compensation and less of a bonus(or buffing other infantry move speed to ahcieve a similar effect, lings dont need any more speed, but marines and zealots would definitely benefit and they already feel a bit too slow in general).
The bigger problem is terrans are practically forced to mass marauders, since marines are very hard countered by splash damage(for example 2 banelings can kill like 20 marines), so mixing infantry is not very effective.
On April 02 2010 19:40 Marradron wrote: What this game really need is a rebalance of roach vs marauder vs immortal. make them all less powerfull and lower immortals min cost. It's just lame that these 3 units dominate the early game strategy options.
this. Z just masses roaches and hydras(not their fault.they have no options),T just masses marauders vs almost evrything and P can counter all and evrything on ground with robo tech(immortals counter evrything early and allow heavy time attacks vs all races with the same build,collossus when the massing starts).
all this hard counter crap and "semi hero" units (roach,marauder,immortal) totally destroy the game.
this never was the case in sc1 cause even "hard" counters were countercountered and degraded to softcounters by proper micro or just swapping unit composition a bit
they should go back to the drawing board with the hard counters (in bw we had 3 different dmg zones for dmg type vs unit type which alone made a big difference) and stop gving units allround just far far superior stats then others.
On April 02 2010 17:30 jdr_ wrote: I'm willing to bet most of the people in here that are complaining about terran, or specifically marauders being overpowered, A) Aren't platinum level players B) Haven't played terran enough to know it's weaknesses and C) play shitty builds repeatedly expecting blizzard to fix the shittiness of their build for them.
1 gate core is fucking bad, I don't care how many times you see people do it on youtube, 1 gate is going to lose to 3 rax every god damned time.
My challenge to you fucking idiots, get to platinum first so this test actually matters, then play terran for 200 games without building a single marauder. Just fucking try it, be sure to let me know when you revolutionize every matchup because as it stands, they're terran's lynchpin muscle unit. Marines are awful against storm, collosi and roaches(roaches have 2 armor un-upgraded meaning marines have 1/3rd their HP and 1/4th their damage). So we can't use marines, we can't use hellions because they're fucking awful against anything that isn't like(ie everything that matters), thors are completely useless because of the immortal shield functionality, siege tanks die too quickly and easily to be cost efficient, vikings are complete shit when they're not in fighter mode, so what does that leave us. Am I only allowed to mass ghosts and battlecruisers just because some fucking idiot kid can't realize that it's not intelligent to do a fucking greedy tech build every game?
There should be a new rule that anything C or below on Iccup, or plat and below on SC2 can't make balance change posts.
rofl your good. So im plat and i don't play terran and i did this 1 rax build vs toss so easy Not to mention its so easy to bunker rush with this strat to support the muradors Toss literally needs to pull probes to defend this. Not to mention you go off crying about random shit in tvp that has nothing to do with the topic, ffs stay on topic.
I've watched quite a while a Terran player's stream. He is in platinum and plays well.
Guess what: When he plays vs Terran or vs Zerg he tries to scout opponent and do some harassing once in a while.
But when he plays vs Protoss he just masses maradeurs without worrying about anything. No scouting no harass. And still wins 4 games out of 5. Amazing.
Don't make Zealots. Go 1 gate with a fast core and put down your robotics immediately after your core (before Stalker). Make a stalker immediately after with chrono boost. When your stalker is about to pop out, send 3-4 probes to attack the maurauder(s) forcing him to micro around while your stalker gets a few free hits. When your robo is done, warp in an Immortal with chrono and once it pops out, assuming you haven't lost too many probes, you can counter and win or just contain him and outmacro him later.
On April 02 2010 23:19 hellitsaboutme wrote: I've watched quite a while a Terran player's stream. He is in platinum and plays well.
Guess what: When he plays vs Terran or vs Zerg he tries to scout opponent and do some harassing once in a while.
But when he plays vs Protoss he just masses maradeurs without worrying about anything. No scouting no harass. And still wins 4 games out of 5. Amazing.
The reason I personally mass marauders is because marines are so bad against toss. I'm experimenting with hellions, but tanks will own immortals. I've heard some people say banshees are good. TvP is really hard for me at the moment.
If they nerf the marauder, they really need to buff something else of the terran because of how hard it is to deal will colossus/storm.
I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
On April 02 2010 17:30 jdr_ wrote: I'm willing to bet most of the people in here that are complaining about terran, or specifically marauders being overpowered, A) Aren't platinum level players B) Haven't played terran enough to know it's weaknesses and C) play shitty builds repeatedly expecting blizzard to fix the shittiness of their build for them.
1 gate core is fucking bad, I don't care how many times you see people do it on youtube, 1 gate is going to lose to 3 rax every god damned time.
My challenge to you fucking idiots, get to platinum first so this test actually matters, then play terran for 200 games without building a single marauder. Just fucking try it, be sure to let me know when you revolutionize every matchup because as it stands, they're terran's lynchpin muscle unit. Marines are awful against storm, collosi and roaches(roaches have 2 armor un-upgraded meaning marines have 1/3rd their HP and 1/4th their damage). So we can't use marines, we can't use hellions because they're fucking awful against anything that isn't like(ie everything that matters), thors are completely useless because of the immortal shield functionality, siege tanks die too quickly and easily to be cost efficient, vikings are complete shit when they're not in fighter mode, so what does that leave us. Am I only allowed to mass ghosts and battlecruisers just because some fucking idiot kid can't realize that it's not intelligent to do a fucking greedy tech build every game?
There should be a new rule that anything C or below on Iccup, or plat and below on SC2 can't make balance change posts.
I challenge you to play Protoss in Platinum and stop the ever-popular semi-early Reaper attack without an early 1Gate-Core build.
Shut the fuck up with your dumbass 'willing to bet'.
Watched all 4 replays. I agree that not all the opponents were particularly high caliber (well, maybe they're better than me :-D, but not near top tier). Maybe we could get some replays against folks here to share? Given 7 pages of discussion about how to counter this, I'd like to see this work in practice (e.g. play 1 game with Toss doing a normal build, rematch with Toss doing a counter build such as stalker+probes+fast robo, rematch with T trying to counter the Toss build still doing normal marauders).
A few things I noticed from T's side: 1. Very quickly, it looked like T could have thrown down a 3rd rax for more marauders. I'm assuming he didn't because he had already won, but I'm curious how an optimal build for this would look. 2. T also had orbital command energy building up; again, probably didn't bother with more MULEs given he was already winning in some of these builds. 3. In one game T went 10/11 rax, in the others he went 11/11 rax. I assume 11/11 is better? 4. I wonder how those games would have went if T went reapers instead of marauders? In the games where P started zealots, I'm assuming it would have been equally or more effective?
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS
You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk.
If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!"
And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays?
You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously.
First off I'm not talking about MASS Mauraders. My main complaint was that they really don't need the ability to slow down units, it just makes everything so much easier for terran saying that they already have real good units already like the tank(splash), hellions(splash), marines(stim), repears(40dmg-buildings), ghost(EMP to counter toss), etc. Now what i'm complaining about now is that the Mauraders could counter all first tier units and are very effective against some higher tier units like the collusus and archons, while having all these other good units tanks,hellions, etc. Once again I'm not talking about mass Mauraders, but having them do good against so much other units is pretty ridiculous. Although all i want them to change on the Mauraders is the slowing down unit ability. EMP now is even more ridiculous. Why does it do both taking off energy and shield? I don't care about them not taking off all shield, the tanks splash finishes that for you or the MMM mix just makes mince meat out of them for you later on. Plus with Protoss units costing so much resources just to lose it easily because one of the problems like EMP must really suck for protoss players.
Now for people who are saying that I don't have a beta key and have no say in it, you could learn much more by watching matches than being in it. I've been watching so many videos on many games saying "wow, i guarantee to you that person is cheap and needs something done to him/her" in a fighting game, i was right. Called out imbalance in shooting games like weapons, i was right. Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed. So don't hate me because i don't have a beta key, try to reason and try to look at and see what i'm saying. Watch some videos try to disagree or agree with me, don't just hate or write stupid comments.
Once again i'm not a toss user although i do be them at times. To have very expensive units just to be countered so easily (colussus, mothership,etc.) by low tiered units that cost less resources must be a pain. I guarantee you that the phoenix cost more resources than most air units and suck the most...
On April 02 2010 17:30 jdr_ wrote: I'm willing to bet most of the people in here that are complaining about terran, or specifically marauders being overpowered, A) Aren't platinum level players B) Haven't played terran enough to know it's weaknesses and C) play shitty builds repeatedly expecting blizzard to fix the shittiness of their build for them.
1 gate core is fucking bad, I don't care how many times you see people do it on youtube, 1 gate is going to lose to 3 rax every god damned time.
My challenge to you fucking idiots, get to platinum first so this test actually matters, then play terran for 200 games without building a single marauder. Just fucking try it, be sure to let me know when you revolutionize every matchup because as it stands, they're terran's lynchpin muscle unit. Marines are awful against storm, collosi and roaches(roaches have 2 armor un-upgraded meaning marines have 1/3rd their HP and 1/4th their damage). So we can't use marines, we can't use hellions because they're fucking awful against anything that isn't like(ie everything that matters), thors are completely useless because of the immortal shield functionality, siege tanks die too quickly and easily to be cost efficient, vikings are complete shit when they're not in fighter mode, so what does that leave us. Am I only allowed to mass ghosts and battlecruisers just because some fucking idiot kid can't realize that it's not intelligent to do a fucking greedy tech build every game?
There should be a new rule that anything C or below on Iccup, or plat and below on SC2 can't make balance change posts.
LOLOLOL Obviously a troll post or just a noob who's full of himself. 1 gate core will counter 3 rax and I will beat you every single time.
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS
You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk.
If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!"
And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays?
You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously.
First off I'm not talking about MASS Mauraders. My main complaint was that they really don't need the ability to slow down units, it just makes everything so much easier for terran saying that they already have real good units already like the tank(splash), hellions(splash), marines(stim), repears(40dmg-buildings), ghost(EMP to counter toss), etc. Now what i'm complaining about now is that the Mauraders could counter all first tier units and are very effective against some higher tier units like the collusus and archons, while having all these other good units tanks,hellions, etc. Once again I'm not talking about mass Mauraders, but having them do good against so much other units is pretty ridiculous. Although all i want them to change on the Mauraders is the slowing down unit ability. EMP now is even more ridiculous. Why does it do both taking off energy and shield? I don't care about them not taking off all shield, the tanks splash finishes that for you or the MMM mix just makes mince meat out of them for you later on. Plus with Protoss units costing so much resources just to lose it easily because one of the problems like EMP must really suck for protoss players.
Now for people who are saying that I don't have a beta key and have no say in it, you could learn much more by watching matches than being in it. I've been watching so many videos on many games saying "wow, i guarantee to you that person is cheap and needs something done to him/her" in a fighting game, i was right. Called out imbalance in shooting games like weapons, i was right. Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed. So don't hate me because i don't have a beta key, try to reason and try to look at and see what i'm saying. Watch some videos try to disagree or agree with me, don't just hate or write stupid comments.
Once again i'm not a toss user although i do be them at times. To have very expensive units just to be countered so easily (colussus, mothership,etc.) by low tiered units that cost less resources must be a pain. I guarantee you that the phoenix cost more resources than most air units and suck the most...
That's the stuff I am talking about.
Maradeurs are too cost effective. Being so low level in tech depth and cheap they require expensive and high tech units to counter them. Why is protoss supposed to rush to get Immortals to counter Maradeurs? Why it's cannot be fought by zeal/stalker/sentry army, which is already more expensive but still suck against maradeur? I really don't get it, so much power is given to Maradeurs, couldn't they give it to tanks?
And I also don't understand terrans who say Immortals own Maraduers: 1st: One immortal equivalent to 4 maradeurs in terms of cost 2nd: after one EMP immortals are pretty much useless, coz they don't get armor bonuses without shield. who will win 12 marad/1 ghost or 3Immortal/1Sentry? Answer is obvious.
On April 03 2010 05:11 Slick348 wrote: Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed.
I don't think that's really an indication of anything... I mean, I said minerals were overpowered in the first game so what do they do? They nerf minerals to 5 per trip in SC2. I'm such a good observer.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
I actually rofl'd at your post, yer marauders are pretty op, but saying toss need more splash damage?!?!?! You have collos and storm, you don't need anymore splash damage apart from maybe some air splash. I think toss is probably the most thought out, apart from air maybe. Just because one unit is slightly OP doesn't mean your race is now shit.
We need back splash from archons or reavers, dunno what was so funny at my post lol. Storm isn't the best anymore and could always be countered by EMP (which i've seen many times). Terran has splash with Hellions, Tanks, EMP, I forget what the Raven's ability is called, nuke if you want to count that in and Planetary fortress as well. Does it still seem very funny saying that they'd probably would need less splash damage saying that they have more units on the field than Toss? As for colossus, i find their pretty much balanced since they can be attacked by both air and ground. Once again i think they should atleast just take off the ability to slow down enemy units for the mauraders.
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS
You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk.
If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!"
And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays?
You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously.
First off I'm not talking about MASS Mauraders. My main complaint was that they really don't need the ability to slow down units, it just makes everything so much easier for terran saying that they already have real good units already like the tank(splash), hellions(splash), marines(stim), repears(40dmg-buildings), ghost(EMP to counter toss), etc. Now what i'm complaining about now is that the Mauraders could counter all first tier units and are very effective against some higher tier units like the collusus and archons, while having all these other good units tanks,hellions, etc. Once again I'm not talking about mass Mauraders, but having them do good against so much other units is pretty ridiculous. Although all i want them to change on the Mauraders is the slowing down unit ability. EMP now is even more ridiculous. Why does it do both taking off energy and shield? I don't care about them not taking off all shield, the tanks splash finishes that for you or the MMM mix just makes mince meat out of them for you later on. Plus with Protoss units costing so much resources just to lose it easily because one of the problems like EMP must really suck for protoss players.
Now for people who are saying that I don't have a beta key and have no say in it, you could learn much more by watching matches than being in it. I've been watching so many videos on many games saying "wow, i guarantee to you that person is cheap and needs something done to him/her" in a fighting game, i was right. Called out imbalance in shooting games like weapons, i was right. Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed. So don't hate me because i don't have a beta key, try to reason and try to look at and see what i'm saying. Watch some videos try to disagree or agree with me, don't just hate or write stupid comments.
Once again i'm not a toss user although i do be them at times. To have very expensive units just to be countered so easily (colussus, mothership,etc.) by low tiered units that cost less resources must be a pain. I guarantee you that the phoenix cost more resources than most air units and suck the most...
That's the stuff I am talking about.
Maradeurs are too cost effective. Being so low level in tech depth and cheap they require expensive and high tech units to counter them. Why is protoss supposed to rush to get Immortals to counter Maradeurs? Why it's cannot be fought by zeal/stalker/sentry army, which is already more expensive but still suck against maradeur? I really don't get it, so much power is given to Maradeurs, couldn't they give it to tanks?
And I also don't understand terrans who say Immortals own Maraduers: 1st: One immortal equivalent to 4 maradeurs in terms of cost 2nd: after one EMP immortals are pretty much useless, coz they don't get armor bonuses without shield. who will win 12 marad/1 ghost or 3Immortal/1Sentry? Answer is obvious.
It's only a matter of time before everyone starts seeing my point of view lol. I don't think everyone if looking at the cost of units and build times for everything. As I've heard once before, Toss is just playin a slowly losing battle majority of the time.
Marauders are quickly becoming the new roach. I see players going straight to them in the beginning, massing them, and then steamrolling the instant Stim finishes researching.
I would really like to see them give Marauders +20hp benefit from combat shield and make stim marine only. I think it would get terran players back to using them as more of the meatshield utility unit that they were probably meant to be.
Doing that certainly wouldn't stop the cheese that's being discussed here though.
On April 03 2010 05:11 Slick348 wrote: Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed.
I don't think that's really an indication of anything... I mean, I said minerals were overpowered in the first game so what do they do? They nerf minerals to 5 per trip in SC2. I'm such a good observer.
Lol true, but i mean come on. I don't see how people aren't agreeing with the fact that they don't need that slowing down ability.
I hate them too in PvT, but I don't want them to lose their slow. It makes them an interesting unit. You can micro them (albeit possibly a bit too effectively) to greatly increase their effectiveness, something that most people find "vital" to make sc2 an e-sport: a unit becomes more effective the more you control it. Take that slow away and marauders are just marines that can't hit air... and are on steroids.
I guess protoss will have to stop being greedy then and do 11 gate instead of 13 or 14. Chrono boosted units counter this along with some probes. Don't know if you noticed but probes actually rape marauders unless there are more than 6 of them.
Don't forget the part where unstimmed Marauders do less damage to unarmored units then Marines or Zerglings.
If they lose the slow, they should probably do more base damage (with less against armor, proportionately). The slowing effect is their main defense against small units like Zerglings and Zealots currently. Put a zealot next to a marauder and have them fight, and watch how demolished the marauder gets. Even give the marauder 2 free shots to simulate the time it takes a zealot to close the distance.
"But you should have Marines to answer Zerglings and Zealots!" I agree, but they explode horribly against their counters (banelings, roaches, colossus, units with sentry shield). That makes them very tough to use compared to their counters.
Marauders are probably a little too strong at the moment because they're so prevalent in play, but I'm not sure what Terran's options include without them at the moment - tanks to deal with armored threats? Thors?
On April 03 2010 07:22 RPGabe wrote: Don't forget the part where unstimmed Marauders do less damage to unarmored units then Marines or Zerglings.
Your point being? This does not in anyway make sense why they also should have slow. As you should get a varied army, and now you might as well just spam the same unit as the attack of marauder gets bonus to armored, but also has a slowing effect, so good against light units like lings/zealots and good vs roaches/stalkers? I wish roaches were that good. I'd happily trade roaches for marauders.
And about bonus vs armored, zerg doesnt even have one! Well unless you count static defense like spine crawler or an airtoair corruptor unit. That said, pretty much all zerg units dont have bonus dmg.
I think the main concern that has been expressed multiple times is that the marauder is too effective when microed, especially with stim. Playing platinum everyone micros their marauders well because the shift + click micro is actually /fun/.The problem is, forces me alot to say "f it, he has too many marauders with stim, I have to huddle in my base/expansion for another two minutes until I have two colossi and hopefully z charge." Just sucks that the solid counter for protoss is preemptively retreating from marauder stim armies or else any good marauder micro will savage you. I guess templar is an alright alternative to colossi, but recently i've taken up the colossus because i think they are more effective against the popular bulky armies of marauders (a new trend perhaps).
I thought terran infantry was supposed to be low in HP but cheap, and effective in masses. One Infantry unit should not be making a protoss player pull 4-5 probes to defend against it (reaper being an exception because its a harass unit). Especially a unit that's so versatile and has no weakness to compensate.
The key to expanding strategic variety within a race is having units that compliment each others weaknesses. The marauder is too well rounded on top of having a slow down ability to add extreme versatility. Marauder needs to see a drop in hp, something to around 100 HP if not less. Somewhere that leaves a marauder on the verge of death after a storm or two.
I think a tank/mech buff would need to follow in order to balance the overall terran army strength. Maybe +1 armor to tank and thor. If not that, then maybe a tank hp increase would be nice too.
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS
You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk.
If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!"
And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays?
You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously.
First off I'm not talking about MASS Mauraders. My main complaint was that they really don't need the ability to slow down units, it just makes everything so much easier for terran saying that they already have real good units already like the tank(splash), hellions(splash), marines(stim), repears(40dmg-buildings), ghost(EMP to counter toss), etc. Now what i'm complaining about now is that the Mauraders could counter all first tier units and are very effective against some higher tier units like the collusus and archons, while having all these other good units tanks,hellions, etc. Once again I'm not talking about mass Mauraders, but having them do good against so much other units is pretty ridiculous. Although all i want them to change on the Mauraders is the slowing down unit ability. EMP now is even more ridiculous. Why does it do both taking off energy and shield? I don't care about them not taking off all shield, the tanks splash finishes that for you or the MMM mix just makes mince meat out of them for you later on. Plus with Protoss units costing so much resources just to lose it easily because one of the problems like EMP must really suck for protoss players.
Now for people who are saying that I don't have a beta key and have no say in it, you could learn much more by watching matches than being in it. I've been watching so many videos on many games saying "wow, i guarantee to you that person is cheap and needs something done to him/her" in a fighting game, i was right. Called out imbalance in shooting games like weapons, i was right. Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed. So don't hate me because i don't have a beta key, try to reason and try to look at and see what i'm saying. Watch some videos try to disagree or agree with me, don't just hate or write stupid comments.
Once again i'm not a toss user although i do be them at times. To have very expensive units just to be countered so easily (colussus, mothership,etc.) by low tiered units that cost less resources must be a pain. I guarantee you that the phoenix cost more resources than most air units and suck the most...
That's the stuff I am talking about.
Maradeurs are too cost effective. Being so low level in tech depth and cheap they require expensive and high tech units to counter them. Why is protoss supposed to rush to get Immortals to counter Maradeurs? Why it's cannot be fought by zeal/stalker/sentry army, which is already more expensive but still suck against maradeur? I really don't get it, so much power is given to Maradeurs, couldn't they give it to tanks?
And I also don't understand terrans who say Immortals own Maraduers: 1st: One immortal equivalent to 4 maradeurs in terms of cost 2nd: after one EMP immortals are pretty much useless, coz they don't get armor bonuses without shield. who will win 12 marad/1 ghost or 3Immortal/1Sentry? Answer is obvious.
On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote: There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there 1. Ranged units 2. Powerful units 3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics) 4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter Zealots(even if they have charge) Stalkers Archons Colossus Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
rauders do not counter Colos unless you are stupid and don't get the range upgrade Sentries > rauders Shield and Barriers is fucking crazy good if you micro it well Archons are the = to the ghost used for fighting when its eng is gone and reall is meant to be meh
The one thing i do think is OP about rauders is that they can slow zealots and lings this needs to be changes prob BUT !! when they go speedlings or charge Zealots they should lose the Immune to slow for those upgrades
I agree that M&Ms are nasty against Toss, but immortals do a good amount of damage mixed w/ everything else. People tend to lose because they Mass tier 1 and lose hard to the best T1.5 unit the Maurderer.
Check out a PTvPP. The M&Ms molest the zealots w/ some simple micro.
On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote: It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them.
I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol.
Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz".
You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff".
Seriously what the fuck?
I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something.
Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS
You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk.
If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!"
And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays?
You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously.
First off I'm not talking about MASS Mauraders. My main complaint was that they really don't need the ability to slow down units, it just makes everything so much easier for terran saying that they already have real good units already like the tank(splash), hellions(splash), marines(stim), repears(40dmg-buildings), ghost(EMP to counter toss), etc. Now what i'm complaining about now is that the Mauraders could counter all first tier units and are very effective against some higher tier units like the collusus and archons, while having all these other good units tanks,hellions, etc. Once again I'm not talking about mass Mauraders, but having them do good against so much other units is pretty ridiculous. Although all i want them to change on the Mauraders is the slowing down unit ability. EMP now is even more ridiculous. Why does it do both taking off energy and shield? I don't care about them not taking off all shield, the tanks splash finishes that for you or the MMM mix just makes mince meat out of them for you later on. Plus with Protoss units costing so much resources just to lose it easily because one of the problems like EMP must really suck for protoss players.
Now for people who are saying that I don't have a beta key and have no say in it, you could learn much more by watching matches than being in it. I've been watching so many videos on many games saying "wow, i guarantee to you that person is cheap and needs something done to him/her" in a fighting game, i was right. Called out imbalance in shooting games like weapons, i was right. Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed. So don't hate me because i don't have a beta key, try to reason and try to look at and see what i'm saying. Watch some videos try to disagree or agree with me, don't just hate or write stupid comments.
Once again i'm not a toss user although i do be them at times. To have very expensive units just to be countered so easily (colussus, mothership,etc.) by low tiered units that cost less resources must be a pain. I guarantee you that the phoenix cost more resources than most air units and suck the most...
That's the stuff I am talking about.
Maradeurs are too cost effective. Being so low level in tech depth and cheap they require expensive and high tech units to counter them. Why is protoss supposed to rush to get Immortals to counter Maradeurs? Why it's cannot be fought by zeal/stalker/sentry army, which is already more expensive but still suck against maradeur? I really don't get it, so much power is given to Maradeurs, couldn't they give it to tanks?
And I also don't understand terrans who say Immortals own Maraduers: 1st: One immortal equivalent to 4 maradeurs in terms of cost 2nd: after one EMP immortals are pretty much useless, coz they don't get armor bonuses without shield. who will win 12 marad/1 ghost or 3Immortal/1Sentry? Answer is obvious.
Nobody said anything about adding in ghosts.
This is example of cost to cost comparison and I am not refering to anyone.
The problem is that as toss you dont know what terran will do. Lately I die to the 1-2 fast reapers, so i gotta get some stalkers fasts, which leave me wide open for any marauder follow up, and if he decide to fast expend, well i delayed immortals to deal with the early expension.
Also you need the fast observers anyway to see if he is going fast expend, banshee rush or drop, because if you are not ready for any of these options you just die. This specific strat the terran can do is just another cheese he can do to make sure the games dont last long.
The way it is right now, as toss you either just die in the early games, or somehow survive to maybe have a chance to win later when you actually can make a decent unit mixe. Its frustrating, because I feel the protoss have no way to put the early pressure on terran witout taking huge risk.
if they made the slow a research for 200/100 at the tech lab, the problem would be solved b/c late game the balance isnt messed up and early game the rush isnt an insta- win just a thought
Game 4 is THE perfect example of my point about Stim. LucifroNNN fast expands while just building marauders. HasuObs goes straight to building stalkers out of his two gateways and then attacks the expansion. Even though Luci expanded early and should therefore have a slightly smaller army, since Marauders can't shoot air and Stalkers can, Marauders are naturally a good counter to early stalkers, so LucifroNNN should be able to make it a pretty even fight to protect his expansion, but should lose most of his marauders in the process. But that's not what happens at all. Instead, he holds off just long enough for Stim to finish researching and then BOOM. Stim'd Marauders steamroll over HasuObs's units and the game is over.
Personally, I think concussive shells are fine. To me, the problem almost always becomes apparent when Stim finishes researching.
I'd like to see what would have happened in any of those games that LucifroNNN and HasuObs played if Luci wouldn't have researched stimpacks.
they are stalkers ..... Marauders are the couter to stalkers ..... he even upgrade the Marauders. So why shouldn't they own what they counter ? not to mention he never really stops to fight he just keeps running and bleeding units off cause he nows he fucked up and he is countered
i love the blink in game 2 i think it is don't see toss use blink much
The big joke is that stim takes off what, 20 hp for twice the firepower? Yeah that was great in SC1 when 10 hp was 25% of the marines health on an already low hp unit, that was balanced. But when 20 hp is like 16% of the unit's health, which is still then beefy at over 100 health, AND gets double the firepower on already high damage? It's mind boggingly stupid.
As a platinum protoss player I can definately say my hardest matches vs terran always involve early Marauders. Heck even at the 8-10min mark once they get Stim it's retarded.
Lets look at some toss units: Zealot = loses to air, loses to AoE, loses to roaches, loses to Reapers Stalker = weak vs Zerglings, marauders, kinda weak vs light armor (less now though) Sentry = low HP support units, loses to everything alone but is great with other units.
Each of them are weak against some early game units.
Terran Marines = loses to AoE, loses to Zealots, loses to roaches. Mauraders = loses to air, loses to lings, doesn't lose to anything else. Reapers = loses to anything not-light.
Seems each race should have a T1 unit that loses to a mass of another t1 unit. Much like Stalkers (and t2 Immortals) lose to lings, Zealots to Roaches and Sentry to everything (who makes only sentrys anyways).
Terran due to some BS reasons have a unit that is not weak to any of Protoss's T1 units and does cost for cost decently well against immortals.
Don't get me wrong I know Protoss cannot just mass 1 unit, and in fact that is why I enjoy toss soo much. It's just very stupid balance wise to have a well balance 3 unit army of Zealot, Sentry, Immortal lose to Mass Mauraders if toss doesn't spend 350 min and 300 gas on Speed. Ghost of course further complicate the situation, but that's another story.
Easy solutions:
Research Slow - If toss's Zealots have to research speed terran should research slow.
Or increase zealot movement speed so they cannot be kited to death. It's retarded for Protoss to spend 150/100 for a building only to then spend 200/200 to make their T1 units able to stand against other T1 units and even then with good micro the Mauraders still win. Speedlings upgrade cost 100/100 and are upgraded for their Pool.
I also think Stim on Mauraders is a problem mid/late game.
It's incredibly hard to defend against those quick marauders; not only that but they limit the protoss's tech as he has to spend money on heavy gas units at the beginning, meaning a later robotics, which increases the timing window in which the terran can exploit his advantage with the marauders. The new ramp mechanics don't help toss either.
And about massing marauders off of 2 bases - the problem here is stim. The terran can lose his army, but because of stim he is able to kill a large portion of the protoss army, and unlike sc1, toss has a harder time rebuilding his forces. I think stim should either cost more hp for the marauders, or their slowing attack should be disabled when stimmed ( that way they can't kite as well )
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
On April 03 2010 07:02 Feefee wrote: I hate them too in PvT, but I don't want them to lose their slow. It makes them an interesting unit. You can micro them (albeit possibly a bit too effectively) to greatly increase their effectiveness, something that most people find "vital" to make sc2 an e-sport: a unit becomes more effective the more you control it. Take that slow away and marauders are just marines that can't hit air... and are on steroids.
What "most people find "vital" to make sc2 an e-sport" is intense micro battles between two players. The slow has the reverse effect, because the other player is unable to micro effectively.
In Warcraft 2, Slow was a 50 mana spell on a tier 3 unit, the Mage. Not as combat effective as bloodlust, but if it had smartcast it would have been pretty badass.
In Warcraft 3, the dryad had a slow on its attack but was tier 2 with a unique tech building and a comparatively weak combat unit in terms of damage and hp. All that notwithstanding, many builds were based off the dryad as main unit composition.
Now in Starcraft 2, you have a unit with the dryad's slow effect which also does more damage than any unit in its class, equal or greater range than any unit in its class, has high hp, and can DOUBLE its DPS at any moment to have some of the highest DPS in the game - at tier 1.
I'm glad Blizzard is learning it's lessons in balance.
One thing that's very frustrating about this push to me is how little the Terran's economy suffers. When I watch replays of my games, it seems as though the Terran's economy is roughly equivalent to my own by the time he backs off. I wind up missing a probe or two trying to build/micro, but it's mostly a gas limitation from not being able to build Zealots to any effect.
It feels like the Terran is completely in control of the game until you finally get an observer out, and that he hasn't really paid any price for it because his units at worst trade with a unit which costs more Gas, and my non-gas options can't effectively counter Marauders without a 300 gas upgrade. Terran just gets a very large window of safety in which they can repair their econ without having to worry about a counter because of how inefficient the P's counters to Marauders are.
It's a 'beatable' build, and if the Protoss can manage to fully recover, it's on the fringe end of a "fair" one, but it feels really demoralizing to just be pinned in your base at the 5 minute mark because your opponent has rallied Marauders and the only thing you can do is sacrifice Zealots and hope you get Stalkers fast enough and hope your opponent micros worse than you do. It's just insult to injury that if you manage to defend, the Terran's economy hasn't taken a real hit for cutting SCVs and mining gas early to get faster Marauders.
On April 03 2010 18:07 TFlame wrote: In Warcraft 2, Slow was a 50 mana spell on a tier 3 unit, the Mage. Not as combat effective as bloodlust, but if it had smartcast it would have been pretty badass.
In Warcraft 3, the dryad had a slow on its attack but was tier 2 with a unique tech building and a comparatively weak combat unit in terms of damage and hp. All that notwithstanding, many builds were based off the dryad as main unit composition.
Now in Starcraft 2, you have a unit with the dryad's slow effect which also does more damage than any unit in its class, equal or greater range than any unit in its class, has high hp, and can DOUBLE its DPS at any moment to have some of the highest DPS in the game - at tier 1.
I'm glad Blizzard is learning it's lessons in balance.
Why are you comparing different games? Slow is much more useful in War3, due to the hero/experience system, combined with smaller, high-HP armies. Getting a unit kill, especially in the early game, is a MUCH bigger deal in War3.
If people didn't like SC2 -> SC1 balance comparisons, I don't think they'd like Warcraft -> Starcraft balance comparisons much either
Edit: I'm not arguing one way or another, just saying don't argue using this method
On April 03 2010 18:47 pat965 wrote: Why are you comparing different games? Slow is much more useful in War3, due to the hero/experience system, combined with smaller, high-HP armies. Getting a unit kill, especially in the early game, is a MUCH bigger deal in War3.
If people didn't like SC2 -> SC1 balance comparisons, I don't think they'd like Warcraft -> Starcraft balance comparisons much either
Edit: I'm not arguing one way or another, just saying don't argue using this method
I think my 3rd point stands on it's own. The comparison is relevant when the armies are smaller and each unit lost is a big deal, such as early game - and that underscores the point that slow is available earlier now than ever before.
If people don't "like" comparisons to the games that are most similar to, are predecessors to, and were worked on by the same team as SC2, it's not by virtue of that fact but either that the comparison itself is faulty or pure stubbornness. Dismissing reasonable comparisons by default is just stupid.
Yeeaaahh, and people keep saying that it's T players that complain hahaha.
Actually it seems like only recently T players have begun playing rax/gas before depot so you just have to wait till this strat becomes more and more popular and someone finds out a timing that counters this well. Only problem is that to notice that he goes rax/gas before depot you would have to scout really early. However i wouldn't call this imba or even OP until this strat becomes dominant with no counter...
I mean sure, cost efficient perhaps especially when you compare it to roach/bane, but for 10 marauders you need like 30-40 of them and that involves getting a good surrounding. If the T even micros and stims a bit its getting a lot harder, especially in the open. And afaik zerg only has spine crawler that does bonus dmg against armored (apart from the corruptor which is only air to air). While the AI is much better than scbw when it comes to autosurround, you can't rely on lots of lings as they will be standing in each others way, basically only a part of your ling army will be able to effectively hit the opponent, even less when theyre bunched up in a ball. It feels like Z has only 2 options against marauder: get mutas asap, total outmacro. Lings and hydras do decent on marauders, but getting a couple hellions has never been that hard to get for T, right.
TFlame formulates it really well. Why does an armored medium-to-high hp t1 unit for 100m/25g have decent medium ranged damage with slow, than can be healed and has stim and moves as quick as a marine? Roaches aren't even that strong and you know how many people cried about roaches.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun?
On April 02 2010 10:52 discordfighting wrote: I love how almost every single topic since the beta opened has been about "unit a hard counters unit b and is hard countered by unit c." I wish Day9 were here to drop the knowledge.
This times infinity. I think that the phrase 'hard counter' should be temporarily banned on teamliquid until people stop using it excessively and using it too describe any situation that a unit beats another unit. I know what I just said is impossible but it really is ridiculous.
I am now going to describe Starcraft 1s unit interactions with the current lingo that is used in the SC2 beta forums.
Defiler hard counters bio. Tanks hard counter Hydralisks. Goliaths hard counter Mutalisks. Vessals hard counter Defilers. Zealots hard counter tanks. Goons hard counter Vultures. Archons hard counter mutalisks. Lurkers hard counter Zealots.
What I just said sounds totally ridiculous right? I think we seriously need to correct how we describe things here because certain phrases such as 'hard counter' over simplify things WAY too much and in the end it will be harder to really discuss strategy if we use phrases that are so black and white.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
On April 03 2010 18:07 TFlame wrote: In Warcraft 2, Slow was a 50 mana spell on a tier 3 unit, the Mage. Not as combat effective as bloodlust, but if it had smartcast it would have been pretty badass.
In Warcraft 3, the dryad had a slow on its attack but was tier 2 with a unique tech building and a comparatively weak combat unit in terms of damage and hp. All that notwithstanding, many builds were based off the dryad as main unit composition.
Now in Starcraft 2, you have a unit with the dryad's slow effect which also does more damage than any unit in its class, equal or greater range than any unit in its class, has high hp, and can DOUBLE its DPS at any moment to have some of the highest DPS in the game - at tier 1.
I'm glad Blizzard is learning it's lessons in balance.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
By the way, I believe the Ultras on that video didnt have speed upgrade.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
On April 03 2010 21:35 Lunat!c wrote: Well i faced it a few times and i can do a shit against it. The slow is sooo strong it should be a ability that u have to research! -.-
Don't be stupid, it just shouldn't be there in the first place.. They already have stim so it's good enough
On April 03 2010 23:08 Slick348 wrote: Just want everyone to see how crap psi storm is against mauraders and well... everything else.
I don't get what you are talking about. Do you want a protoss to just go pure high templar and win? I guess you're stuck in the mentality that "storm > bio" from SCBW. This is SC2, time to start over and learn a new game. Also storm is amazing against marines, who ever said it's supposed to be better?
It feels like many of you just want storm to be stronger like SCBW, even tho it's not the same game at all.
On April 03 2010 21:35 Lunat!c wrote: Well i faced it a few times and i can do a shit against it. The slow is sooo strong it should be a ability that u have to research! -.-
Don't be stupid, it just shouldn't be there in the first place.. They already have stim so it's good enough
Such a dumb comment. Do you even think what are writing? Protoss are already researching blink why don't leave charge default to zeals.
On April 03 2010 23:08 Slick348 wrote: Just want everyone to see how crap psi storm is against mauraders and well... everything else.
I don't get what you are talking about. Do you want a protoss to just go pure high templar and win? I guess you're stuck in the mentality that "storm > bio" from SCBW. This is SC2, time to start over and learn a new game. Also storm is amazing against marines, who ever said it's supposed to be better?
It feels like many of you just want storm to be stronger like SCBW, even tho it's not the same game at all.
Do you want terran to go pure maradeur and win? Which is already happening.
On April 03 2010 23:08 Slick348 wrote: Just want everyone to see how crap psi storm is against mauraders and well... everything else.
I don't get what you are talking about. Do you want a protoss to just go pure high templar and win? I guess you're stuck in the mentality that "storm > bio" from SCBW. This is SC2, time to start over and learn a new game. Also storm is amazing against marines, who ever said it's supposed to be better?
It feels like many of you just want storm to be stronger like SCBW, even tho it's not the same game at all.
Do you want terran to go pure maradeur and win? Which is already happening.
No I like having diverse armies, but I don't think you should just look at storm as the direct counter just because it was a counter vs bio in SCBW, protoss has a lot of other potential counters.
I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
What about Warp Prism?
So all we need is a warp rpism, great micro, tier 3 units with their upgrades, and hope that the terran won't have anymore emp left to pull off a storm that might hit 5-6 125hp units for 1-2 second. Seems balanced.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
What about Warp Prism?
Thinking of micro me as random player who plays all races I would say: Protoss has to: - put defense shield by sentries - put ice blocks in the heat of battle - spread army - control zeals and immo/stalkers separately - storm - feedback - load/unload HTs from Warp prism overall 6 type of units.
Terran has to: - stim - EMP overall 3 type of units
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
Hahaha, oh wow. Look how even when he got caught up from both sides he just runs away and survives lmao. It isnt as if getting that army as T is that hard at midgame... and thats tier 1 unit against mass t2/t3 units, how is that balanced!
The funniest part about all this is that I will play a terran who goes barracks first, etc. for fastest possible marauder cheese, go all in marauders for the next 20 minutes, eventually I hold out and beat him with storm, and he will act like storm is imbalanced, after him making 1 unit for 30 minutes and me making 75% of my tech tree to counter and out expanding. "Storm is IMBA!!" is what I will hear with 4 expo's to his 1-2 and my 7 tech buildings vs pure marauder. Unfortunately Blizzard is stupid enough to look at overall win % for races as their balance que and forgets that over half of the newbies that don't know how to play the game will pick terran because it is the "human" race and get raped, bringing that % down so they overbalance them to reciprocate. Even when guys like CowGoMoo were showing that Terran were just fine from the get go.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
Hahaha, oh wow. Look how even when he got caught up from both sides he just runs away and survives lmao. It isnt as if getting that army as T is that hard at midgame... and thats tier 1 unit against mass t2/t3 units, how is that balanced!
I think quite all ppl agree that there is a problem with maradeurs. Just a few dumbass terrans don't understand it.
On April 04 2010 00:54 lepape wrote: Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultras had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
No. Slowing the ultra's down with the default slow attack, and speeding the marauders up with the simpack is like micro'ing speed hydra's against ensnared no-leg zealots. It's called tier 1 EZ mode.
The best thing toss have going for them in PvT right now is how lazy many Terran's have become from marauder ez living.
On April 04 2010 00:54 lepape wrote: Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultras had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
No. Slowing the ultra's down with the default slow attack, and speeding the marauders up with the simpack is like micro'ing speed hydra's against ensnared no-leg zealots. It's called tier 1 EZ mode.
You're wrong, ultralisks can't be slowed by Marauders. Watch the video carefully, they run at exactly the same speed before and after they get attacked by them.
Note that those ultras also don't have speed upgrade, so when you think about it, it's ridiculous to read so many people commenting ''OMG nerf marauders'' when... those ultralisks are not even upgraded!
You got me, instead of slowing they do 20 damage per shot, cost for cost more dps than immortals but tier 1 and slowing everything else. Also can be healed and stimmable for essentially 40 dps (double cost for cost immortal dps against armored, even more than that against light). Very well thought out unit those marauders.
Slow doesn't affect massive units. Those are ultralisks, thors, and colossi. Notice in TvP protoss can actually micro his colossi vs marauders. This makes them 10x more useful than any other unit in their arsenal. It just goes to prove how important microability is. Mara slow removes microability of all non-massive units, which dumbs the game down to "herp derp ima mass marauders." This is not what anybody should want.
On April 04 2010 01:07 TFlame wrote: You got me, instead of slowing they do 20 damage per shot, cost for cost more dps than immortals but tier 1 and slowing everything else. Also can be healed and stimmable for essentially 40 dps (double cost for cost immortal dps against armored, even more than that against light). Very well thought out unit those marauders.
Yes, because you can make... zerglings against marauders, in this very specific case.
Come on guys, have you even played SC1? Just a few dragoons were extremely cost effective against ultralisks (esp without speed), tanks were also extremely good.
There's NOTHING that different here with marauders.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
Have you played ZvT? I am mostly random and I know what I am saying. Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against maradeurs. In simple situation zerg has roughly mixed army, and when zerglings try chase down maradeurs they get too far from main army of zerg (hydras or ultras) and maradeurs kill easily small amount of zerglings.
Theoretically, 1 stalker can kill 100 Ultras. But thats not the case. DPS of stalkers is so tiny that Ultras can simply ignore them. Whereas you cannot ignore maradeur's damage. 5 Maradeurs with stim (5*20*2) = 200 per second. 3 stalkers (3*14) = 42. Feel the difference? Not to mention 5 maradeurs are cheaper than 3 stalkers in terms of gas. Again you don't analyze. Plz use some brain.
On April 04 2010 00:53 TFlame wrote: The funniest part about all this is that I will play a terran who goes barracks first, etc. for fastest possible marauder cheese, go all in marauders for the next 20 minutes, eventually I hold out and beat him with storm, and he will act like storm is imbalanced, after him making 1 unit for 30 minutes and me making 75% of my tech tree to counter and out expanding. "Storm is IMBA!!" is what I will hear with 4 expo's to his 1-2 and my 7 tech buildings vs pure marauder. Unfortunately Blizzard is stupid enough to look at overall win % for races as their balance que and forgets that over half of the newbies that don't know how to play the game will pick terran because it is the "human" race and get raped, bringing that % down so they overbalance them to reciprocate. Even when guys like CowGoMoo were showing that Terran were just fine from the get go.
Are you really so clueless or just lying on purpose to flame others?
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
Have you played ZvT? I am mostly random and I know what I am saying. Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against maradeurs. In simple situation zerg has roughly mixed army, and when zerglings try chase down maradeurs they get too far from main army of zerg (hydras or ultras) and maradeurs kill easily small amount of zerglings.
Theoretically, 1 stalker can kill 100 Ultras. But thats not the case. DPS of stalkers is so tiny that Ultras can simply ignore them. Whereas you cannot ignore maradeur's damage. 5 Maradeurs with stim (5*20*2) = 200 per second. 3 stalkers (3*14) = 42. Feel the difference? Not to mention 5 maradeurs are cheaper than 3 stalkers in terms of gas. Again you don't analyze. Plz use some brain.
Plz use some brain? You're the one telling me that marauders counter speedlings.
Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against marauders? Are you kidding, where does that come from? Please try mass marauders+medivac against pure lings or ultra ling just once, see who wins.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
Have you played ZvT? I am mostly random and I know what I am saying. Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against maradeurs. In simple situation zerg has roughly mixed army, and when zerglings try chase down maradeurs they get too far from main army of zerg (hydras or ultras) and maradeurs kill easily small amount of zerglings.
Theoretically, 1 stalker can kill 100 Ultras. But thats not the case. DPS of stalkers is so tiny that Ultras can simply ignore them. Whereas you cannot ignore maradeur's damage. 5 Maradeurs with stim (5*20*2) = 200 per second. 3 stalkers (3*14) = 42. Feel the difference? Not to mention 5 maradeurs are cheaper than 3 stalkers in terms of gas. Again you don't analyze. Plz use some brain.
I'd be cool with seeing maras cost 125/50. They're even with stalkers from the getgo and come out earlier. At least make them cost comparably much. Right now something has to give. Reduce cost/remove slow/increase tech. I don't care which, as long as it works.
On April 04 2010 00 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 00 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 00 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:53 TFlame wrote: The funniest part about all this is that I will play a terran who goes barracks first, etc. for fastest possible marauder cheese, go all in marauders for the next 20 minutes, eventually I hold out and beat him with storm, and he will act like storm is imbalanced, after him making 1 unit for 30 minutes and me making 75% of my tech tree to counter and out expanding. "Storm is IMBA!!" is what I will hear with 4 expo's to his 1-2 and my 7 tech buildings vs pure marauder. Unfortunately Blizzard is stupid enough to look at overall win % for races as their balance que and forgets that over half of the newbies that don't know how to play the game will pick terran because it is the "human" race and get raped, bringing that % down so they overbalance them to reciprocate. Even when guys like CowGoMoo were showing that Terran were just fine from the get go.
I have seen this many times and im tired off it, your logic being that because players are human the "noobs" by default will pick terrans because they are humans? this makes no sense at all, this is a computer game. People play whatever race they think are the most cool/fun/maybe the best. your argument holds no water. your logic being that most/all terran players are noobs that need to learn how to play the overpowered race..
terran may be overpowred, honestly its to early in the beta to really tell imho. but one thing is clear, terrans mech for instance is completly lacking, aruging against this is pointless its a straight up fact, atleast against protoss.
edit: this is why many terrans default back to marauders, they are good. but storm does completly destroy them, saying that they can "ignore" it is wrong, stimming cost them 20hp, collosus spash with 9 range is just silly against them.
On April 04 2010 01:15 adelarge wrote: Are you really so clueless or just lying on purpose to flame others?
Have you heard Dustin Browder's interviews? When asked about balance the first thing he quotes is the overall balance statistics of ALL of battlenet. I've followed all of the developer interviews, see the trend in patches/design from well before beta into Blizzcon's etc., and happen to be a game designer myself. Which of the clues am I without?
Then you had to miss this
Q. What race are the developers least happy about as far as balance goes? Who needs the most work or a major change?
A. Terrans are currently losing more games than they are winning at gold and platinum skill levels. We are going to be looking to address some of these issues in future patches.
Also could you link me some statistics showing that most newbs pick terran as their race? I'm not saying it's wrong, but from my experience new players (especially young ones) tends to pick the more alien options, because terran are sooo boring compared to the oh-so-cool protoss and ferocious zerg. I rembemer when we played BW as kinds...nobody picked terran, me included.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
Have you played ZvT? I am mostly random and I know what I am saying. Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against maradeurs. In simple situation zerg has roughly mixed army, and when zerglings try chase down maradeurs they get too far from main army of zerg (hydras or ultras) and maradeurs kill easily small amount of zerglings.
Theoretically, 1 stalker can kill 100 Ultras. But thats not the case. DPS of stalkers is so tiny that Ultras can simply ignore them. Whereas you cannot ignore maradeur's damage. 5 Maradeurs with stim (5*20*2) = 200 per second. 3 stalkers (3*14) = 42. Feel the difference? Not to mention 5 maradeurs are cheaper than 3 stalkers in terms of gas. Again you don't analyze. Plz use some brain.
Plz use some brain? You're the one telling me that marauders counter speedlings.
Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against marauders? Are you kidding, where does that come from? Please try mass marauders+medivac against pure lings or ultra ling just once, see who wins.
You're so dumb. Do you even play other races than terran? Zerg never builds that much of zerglings as terran maradeurs in terms of cost/limit. Usually zerg ends up building 50 zerglings at most. Because there are otheressential units in the army. Whereas terran spams maradeurs. And do you really think that 50 zerglings are capable of killing 100 limit MMM ball?
If you have faced mass lings with maradeurs that means you are newbie. I don't wanna bother to explain you anymore, it takes so much effort to prove you every single point because of your stupidness. Again, I repeat, try to think and analyze.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
What about Warp Prism?
Thinking of micro me as random player who plays all races I would say: Protoss has to: - put defense shield by sentries - put ice blocks in the heat of battle - spread army - control zeals and immo/stalkers separately - storm - feedback - load/unload HTs from Warp prism overall 6 type of units.
Terran has to: - stim - EMP overall 3 type of units
Aren't you asking to much gosu micro from Toss?
What does all those other stuff has to do with Warp prism and high templars lol. And so what if some races require more micro, just look at terrans in SCBW if you want, it was general knowledge that terran required more micro, did it make the game impossible for terran? Not at all.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
What about Warp Prism?
Thinking of micro me as random player who plays all races I would say: Protoss has to: - put defense shield by sentries - put ice blocks in the heat of battle - spread army - control zeals and immo/stalkers separately - storm - feedback - load/unload HTs from Warp prism overall 6 type of units.
Terran has to: - stim - EMP overall 3 type of units
Aren't you asking to much gosu micro from Toss?
What does all those other stuff has to do with Warp prism and high templars lol. And so what if some races require more micro, just look at terrans in SCBW if you want, it was general knowledge that terran required more micro, did it make the game impossible for terran? Not at all.
What does SCBW has to do with this game? At least I am talking about SC2. And I am doing quite reasonable comparison.
So basically, what you saying is that if two players with equal skills play TvP. Then the player who plays for terran will win since it demands less micro. It's not how balance should be. I don't wanna discuss with you anymore. Because: 1st. We are not talking about the topic. 2nd. You actually don't know how to discuss. Discussing is not describing how you feel. You have to come up with some points or arguments which are backed up with some proof/analyze.
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
What about Warp Prism?
Thinking of micro me as random player who plays all races I would say: Protoss has to: - put defense shield by sentries - put ice blocks in the heat of battle - spread army - control zeals and immo/stalkers separately - storm - feedback - load/unload HTs from Warp prism overall 6 type of units.
Terran has to: - stim - EMP overall 3 type of units
Aren't you asking to much gosu micro from Toss?
What does all those other stuff has to do with Warp prism and high templars lol. And so what if some races require more micro, just look at terrans in SCBW if you want, it was general knowledge that terran required more micro, did it make the game impossible for terran? Not at all.
What does SCBW has to do with this game? At least I am talking about SC2. And I am doing quite reasonable comparison.
So basically, what you saying is that if two players with equal skills play TvP. Then the player who plays for terran will win since it demands less micro. It's not how balance should be. I don't wanna discuss with you anymore. Because: 1st. We are not talking about the topic. 2nd. You actually don't know how to discuss. Discussing is not describing how you feel. You have to come up with some points or arguments which are backed up with some proof/analyze.
if you want a real tvp marauder rush... here it is.. Depo rax refine rax orbital techlab techlab supply call down.. and now you have 2 rax pumping marauder's at the normal time of 1 without ever getting supply blocked.
On April 04 2010 03 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 04 2010 03 end_of_the_skype_highlighting:26 hellitsaboutme wrote:
On April 04 2010 02:53 Zoler wrote:
On April 04 2010 00:22 hellitsaboutme wrote:
On April 04 2010 00:10 Zoler wrote:
On April 04 2010 00:05 hellitsaboutme wrote:
On April 03 2010 23:58 Zoler wrote:
On April 03 2010 23:56 hellitsaboutme wrote: I think you don't know that storm animation is the same but impact is 77% less than before patch. It's huge very huge nerf. Roaches and maradeurs don't give a shit to storms now. Pls check latest PvT and PvZ games.
EMP counters HTs well, don't you say that storm is hard counter to MMM.
Good protoss players will spread out HT's so you can't EMP them all. You can also put them in a Warp Prism to protect them until you are in storm range.
So do terran can spread his army against protoss, considering that before patch Storm had same radius as EMP. I think we are shifting from topic. Let's not do that.
What about Warp Prism?
Thinking of micro me as random player who plays all races I would say: Protoss has to: - put defense shield by sentries - put ice blocks in the heat of battle - spread army - control zeals and immo/stalkers separately - storm - feedback - load/unload HTs from Warp prism overall 6 type of units.
Terran has to: - stim - EMP overall 3 type of units
Aren't you asking to much gosu micro from Toss?
What does all those other stuff has to do with Warp prism and high templars lol. And so what if some races require more micro, just look at terrans in SCBW if you want, it was general knowledge that terran required more micro, did it make the game impossible for terran? Not at all.
What does SCBW has to do with this game? At least I am talking about SC2. And I am doing quite reasonable comparison.
So basically, what you saying is that if two players with equal skills play TvP. Then the player who plays for terran will win since it demands less micro. It's not how balance should be. I don't wanna discuss with you anymore. Because: 1st. We are not talking about the topic. 2nd. You actually don't know how to discuss. Discussing is not describing how you feel. You have to come up with some points or arguments which are backed up with some proof/analyze.
scbw has nothing to do with sc2? OK..
100% you only play one race
I already mentioned that I play random. Although, tbh I played Terran/Zerg about 50 games in the beginning.
On April 04 2010 03:41 Lz wrote: if you want a real tvp marauder rush... here it is.. Depo rax rax orbital techlab techlab supply call down.. and now you have 2 rax pumping marauder's at the normal time of 1 without ever getting supply blocked.
When do you build refinery? After orbital or before?
On April 04 2010 03:41 Lz wrote: if you want a real tvp marauder rush... here it is.. Depo rax rax orbital techlab techlab supply call down.. and now you have 2 rax pumping marauder's at the normal time of 1 without ever getting supply blocked.
When do you build refinery? After orbital or before?
Again the simple way to fix Marauder make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow. Win the units that counter marauders acc counter them !
and for the whole omg he is kiteing the ultras no speed upgrade and notice that the zerg was not microing them at all. The terran would just toss one marauder into die and the ultras would stop and kill it and he just keep on doing this and zerg fell for it over and over. Oh and also somone else pointed out where is the backup for them no zerglings ?
zealots desperately need to be immune to the slow for sure, terrans just do that back shoot crap and pick them off constantly while slowass immortals in the back can't catch up and do the same, basically throwing away money, and you cant make stalkers/sentires and immortals on 1 gas at all.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
Have you played ZvT? I am mostly random and I know what I am saying. Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against maradeurs. In simple situation zerg has roughly mixed army, and when zerglings try chase down maradeurs they get too far from main army of zerg (hydras or ultras) and maradeurs kill easily small amount of zerglings.
Theoretically, 1 stalker can kill 100 Ultras. But thats not the case. DPS of stalkers is so tiny that Ultras can simply ignore them. Whereas you cannot ignore maradeur's damage. 5 Maradeurs with stim (5*20*2) = 200 per second. 3 stalkers (3*14) = 42. Feel the difference? Not to mention 5 maradeurs are cheaper than 3 stalkers in terms of gas. Again you don't analyze. Plz use some brain.
Plz use some brain? You're the one telling me that marauders counter speedlings.
Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against marauders? Are you kidding, where does that come from? Please try mass marauders+medivac against pure lings or ultra ling just once, see who wins.
You're so dumb. Do you even play other races than terran? Zerg never builds that much of zerglings as terran maradeurs in terms of cost/limit. Usually zerg ends up building 50 zerglings at most. Because there are otheressential units in the army. Whereas terran spams maradeurs. And do you really think that 50 zerglings are capable of killing 100 limit MMM ball?
If you have faced mass lings with maradeurs that means you are newbie. I don't wanna bother to explain you anymore, it takes so much effort to prove you every single point because of your stupidness. Again, I repeat, try to think and analyze.
Who said I even played terran in the first place?
No, we're not talking about an MMM ball, we're talking about mass marauders, and to quote you, ''Marauders counter speedlings''. Pro tip : they don't.
Zerg ''can't build more than 50 zerglings because he has more important units''? Seriously, I hope that's a joke. Against mass marauders or even an MMM ball, equal supply of ultra ling banelings with speed will eat you alive, plain and simple. Add infestors to that and your army is basically worthless.
Just play a game any against decent Zerg, use your Silver league skills against him and tell him he can't build any air unit other than OL, and that you can only build marauders and medivac the whole game, because marauders are overpowered. See who wins.
I like the idea of the damage nerf. Something like 8(+12) or hell 6(+14) sounds good. Forces you to get a more diverse army because marauders alone won't deal enough dmg.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
Have you played ZvT? I am mostly random and I know what I am saying. Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against maradeurs. In simple situation zerg has roughly mixed army, and when zerglings try chase down maradeurs they get too far from main army of zerg (hydras or ultras) and maradeurs kill easily small amount of zerglings.
Theoretically, 1 stalker can kill 100 Ultras. But thats not the case. DPS of stalkers is so tiny that Ultras can simply ignore them. Whereas you cannot ignore maradeur's damage. 5 Maradeurs with stim (5*20*2) = 200 per second. 3 stalkers (3*14) = 42. Feel the difference? Not to mention 5 maradeurs are cheaper than 3 stalkers in terms of gas. Again you don't analyze. Plz use some brain.
Plz use some brain? You're the one telling me that marauders counter speedlings.
Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against marauders? Are you kidding, where does that come from? Please try mass marauders+medivac against pure lings or ultra ling just once, see who wins.
You're so dumb. Do you even play other races than terran? Zerg never builds that much of zerglings as terran maradeurs in terms of cost/limit. Usually zerg ends up building 50 zerglings at most. Because there are otheressential units in the army. Whereas terran spams maradeurs. And do you really think that 50 zerglings are capable of killing 100 limit MMM ball?
If you have faced mass lings with maradeurs that means you are newbie. I don't wanna bother to explain you anymore, it takes so much effort to prove you every single point because of your stupidness. Again, I repeat, try to think and analyze.
first off I want to start off by saying im a zerg player, and I have to wonder EVERY time I read threads like this why people post ridiculous fight scenarios like this.... 50 zerglings(25 food) versus 100 food of MMM? why should the zerglings be able to win that scenario ever?
On April 03 2010 21:35 Lunat!c wrote: Well i faced it a few times and i can do a shit against it. The slow is sooo strong it should be a ability that u have to research! -.-
Don't be stupid, it just shouldn't be there in the first place.. They already have stim so it's good enough
Such a dumb comment. Do you even think what are writing? Protoss are already researching blink why don't leave charge default to zeals.
Could you tell me what's so stupid about what i typed? The ability to slow down units just shouldn't be there since the mauraders are already strong enough. Back your statement up if your gonna say it's a dumb comment
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
On April 03 2010 17:27 CrimsonPhoenix wrote: [quote]
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
That's why you make lings with your ultras.
Seriously, there's many things that totally rape Ultras in SC2, such as Siege tanks and Immortals. Even Stakers with blink are probably invincible against pure Ultras. Marauders are fine.
It's not that different from SC1 in which a Science Vessel could bring an Ultralisk to about 5% hp, or Dragoons would be a joke against them also (again, that's exactly why you need zerglings).
Oh really? Do you know that Maradeurs counter speedlings as well? Speedlings barely scratch stimmed maradeurs and when maradeurs/speedlings are dancing around in high speed Ultras will never reach them. Ultras are way slower than in sc1.
And don't you dare to compare cheap tier1 maradeurs to high tech units. I can see that 5 Maraduers are countering 3 Ultras. If we take same cost can u imagine that 1 Immortal or 2 Dragoons are countering 3 Ultras. Pls do some analyze
Sorry but stimmed Marauders don't counter speedlings when there's a decent number of them. Not even close.
I can imagine 3 stalkers with blink countering 3 ultras without speed. Again, the result would have been totally different in this video if the ultralisks had speed.
Hell, even 1 tank could kite 3 ultras without speed forever in SC1. Marauders are fine.
Have you played ZvT? I am mostly random and I know what I am saying. Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against maradeurs. In simple situation zerg has roughly mixed army, and when zerglings try chase down maradeurs they get too far from main army of zerg (hydras or ultras) and maradeurs kill easily small amount of zerglings.
Theoretically, 1 stalker can kill 100 Ultras. But thats not the case. DPS of stalkers is so tiny that Ultras can simply ignore them. Whereas you cannot ignore maradeur's damage. 5 Maradeurs with stim (5*20*2) = 200 per second. 3 stalkers (3*14) = 42. Feel the difference? Not to mention 5 maradeurs are cheaper than 3 stalkers in terms of gas. Again you don't analyze. Plz use some brain.
Plz use some brain? You're the one telling me that marauders counter speedlings.
Zerg never has equivalent mass of zerglings against marauders? Are you kidding, where does that come from? Please try mass marauders+medivac against pure lings or ultra ling just once, see who wins.
You're so dumb. Do you even play other races than terran? Zerg never builds that much of zerglings as terran maradeurs in terms of cost/limit. Usually zerg ends up building 50 zerglings at most. Because there are otheressential units in the army. Whereas terran spams maradeurs. And do you really think that 50 zerglings are capable of killing 100 limit MMM ball?
If you have faced mass lings with maradeurs that means you are newbie. I don't wanna bother to explain you anymore, it takes so much effort to prove you every single point because of your stupidness. Again, I repeat, try to think and analyze.
Who said I even played terran in the first place?
No, we're not talking about an MMM ball, we're talking about mass marauders, and to quote you, ''Marauders counter speedlings''. Pro tip : they don't.
Zerg ''can't build more than 50 zerglings because he has more important units''? Seriously, I hope that's a joke. Against mass marauders or even an MMM ball, equal supply of ultra ling banelings with speed will eat you alive, plain and simple. Add infestors to that and your army is basically worthless.
Just play a game any against decent Zerg, use your Silver league skills against him and tell him he can't build any air unit other than OL, and that you can only build marauders and medivac the whole game, because marauders are overpowered. See who wins.
Just for the record, I am in Gold league and actually I share account with friends. I downloaded bunch of recent TvZ top games. Although, terran was massing maradeurs, no zerg ever builds zerglings more than 50-60 food. And do you know why, because 4-5 helions mixed with maradeurs would demolish any amount of zerglings. That's why we never have situation in the game where pure zergling mass can deal with maradeurs.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.
I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.
Another thing, I think if you change Stalkers to have a base 16 damage with no bonuses then this early rush will be a lot weaker. Of course, if gate core already counters this in Korea then we wouldn't need to give Stalkers a big buff (Which it does seem they could use to justify their cost).
Random Spurt: Terran really look like the new Toss. Mauraders are smart goons and Terrans have uniform army compositions with a few neat harass tricks (Reaver drop, DTs = Reapers, Banshees. Hell it even sounds the same). Add to the fact that the ghost with emp is the de facto arbiter with stasis, and people are complaining about low Terran army micro, it all sounds familiar.
The only thing is that toss doesn't quite have the early tank to prevent goon (marauder) breaks. I think a stronger Stalker would mimic that early tank.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.
I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.
Another thing, I think if you change Stalkers to have a base 16 damage with no bonuses then this early rush will be a lot weaker. Of course, if gate core already counters this in Korea then we wouldn't need to give Stalkers a big buff (Which it does seem they could use to justify their cost).
What planet are you on? A single ultralisk can chew threw 459084589024 zealots, and are a non-issue in ZvZ.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.
I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.
Another thing, I think if you change Stalkers to have a base 16 damage with no bonuses then this early rush will be a lot weaker. Of course, if gate core already counters this in Korea then we wouldn't need to give Stalkers a big buff (Which it does seem they could use to justify their cost).
What planet are you on? A single ultralisk can chew threw 459084589024 zealots, and are a non-issue in ZvZ.
In SC1 land. I think you are in SC2 land (The land for all the lucky, rich, and press affiliated.)
Again Zealots and Zerglings immune to slow problem solved the units that should counter them counter them. The units the maurader is to counter Stalkers roachs ultras still get countered.
Win Win
Like really how hard is it to do that post it around blizzard will catch on to a easy fix.
Serious question: sans Marauder spam, what can Terran do vs Protoss? All my rines always get raped by collosi or storm. All metal raped by Immortals. All Air raped by stalkers or storm. It always feels like Toss can A-move me at any time, whereas I always have to have all my units positioned correctly, make sure they fire at the correct things, use their abilities at the correct times and places, etc, and even then probably still get raped by an equal food Toss army + at most 10 mouse clicks.
On April 04 2010 13:07 roemy wrote: hummmm? slow only vs armored units then?
Somewhat ya guess you could do that but kind of what the slow on rines, ghost, HT ,DT sentrys ,hydras and Workers.
Also i kind of what to say Bonus dmg for zealots on armored bio targets but that would be strange but help them VS roachs/Mauraders to /shrug
Like really its just the units that are made to counter them can't cause micro with slow is to good when you kill the micro VS them should even out easy
On April 04 2010 13:07 SoFFacet wrote: Serious question: sans Marauder spam, what can Terran do vs Protoss? All my rines always get raped by collosi or storm. All metal raped by Immortals. All Air raped by stalkers or storm. It always feels like Toss can A-move me at any time, whereas I always have to have all my units positioned correctly, make sure they fire at the correct things, use their abilities at the correct times and places, etc, and even then probably still get raped by an equal food Toss army + at most 10 mouse clicks.
ya when you move into late game it can get hard lots micro from both sides needed to win. The right storm is GG but the right emps on HT can be GG . Like really late game toss Terran is all about who micros the ghost or HT better lol oh and the terran needs to make sure to take out the colos with viks or he will still lose even if he micros better.
if they lowered how long the slow lasted wouldn't that fix this? you couldn't just run 1 marauder around 3 zealots if he didn't attack faster than slow wears off... right?
As a terran player i have used/tested a marauder rush out in plat and it is impossible to beat on some maps. a 10 rax produces the maruader 33 seconds before the quickest stalker can be built (which means the second marauder will be spawned and 3 seconds into the third). a 9 rax for a marauder rush is even more silly. there is no way to stop this cheese build currently, if it is proxied then the toss player can try and scout it in time and either kill the worker or stand were the addon needs to be placed but 33 seconds on some maps makes it so the rax doesnt even need to be proxied. it certainly needs to be patched asap, something needs to be changed about the timing of the marauder.
Stalker does not need buff, they are already good enough.
Something has to be done with terrans. Tanks need serious buff, like durability or smth, they die too fast. And make maradeurs 50 gas which is fair coz they beat zeals/stalkers easily in tier 1.
Just some calculation: 6 stimmed maradeurs (150 gas) have 6*20*2 = 240 dps vs armored 3 stalkers (150 gas) have 3*14 = 42 dps vs armored
240/42 ~ 6. Maradeurs are six times more efficient than stalkers although both of them supposed to counter armored units. I didn't count minerals because most of time protoss and terran have them a lot.
I think 100min/50 gas should be fair which would make maradeurs only 3 times more efficient than stalkers but they still do not shoot air.
a stalker wins a 1n1 fight usually or am i wrong? my stalkers always won with dunno... red HP bar left and shield points go so fast to max again that it isnt a real problem.
On April 04 2010 13:57 MeProU_Kor wrote: a stalker wins a 1n1 fight usually or am i wrong? my stalkers always won with dunno... red HP bar left and shield points go so fast to max again that it isnt a real problem.
You shouldn't compare them one to one. It doesn't happen in the game. Please check my previous post where it's clear that maradeurs are 6 times more efficient than stalkers.
On April 04 2010 13:07 SoFFacet wrote: Serious question: sans Marauder spam, what can Terran do vs Protoss? All my rines always get raped by collosi or storm. All metal raped by Immortals. All Air raped by stalkers or storm. It always feels like Toss can A-move me at any time, whereas I always have to have all my units positioned correctly, make sure they fire at the correct things, use their abilities at the correct times and places, etc, and even then probably still get raped by an equal food Toss army + at most 10 mouse clicks.
ya when you move into late game it can get hard lots micro from both sides needed to win. The right storm is GG but the right emps on HT can be GG . Like really late game toss Terran is all about who micros the ghost or HT better lol oh and the terran needs to make sure to take out the colos with viks or he will still lose even if he micros better.
As far as EMP vs Storm late game goes, Terran is at a large disadvantage. In order to know where you're going to need to EMP to even hit the templar, you need to scan (while the protoss will have an observer with them and likely another trying to follow your army). In addition, assuming equal skill, the protoss can simply feedback a ghost before it gets an EMP off. Hell, I've had toss players bringing templar solo to my natural to try to pick off as many ghosts as they can before I move out. =P
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.
I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.
Another thing, I think if you change Stalkers to have a base 16 damage with no bonuses then this early rush will be a lot weaker. Of course, if gate core already counters this in Korea then we wouldn't need to give Stalkers a big buff (Which it does seem they could use to justify their cost).
What planet are you on? A single ultralisk can chew threw 459084589024 zealots, and are a non-issue in ZvZ.
In SC1 land. I think you are in SC2 land (The land for all the lucky, rich, and press affiliated.)
Aren't zealots trash against ultras in SC1? Mostly because the zealots attack is doubly affected by high ultra armor...
Tank vs Marauder balance really has to be adjusted. It's pretty retarded that a tier 1.5 (infantry!) has 83% of the hp of a tier 2 unit for 20% of the gas cost. I have raped tank heavy terran armies by splitting into 3-4 marauder groups and 1-shotting their tanks before they can get a 2nd volley off and simply a-moving the rest of the army.
Plus tanks ability needs to be researched.
My personal proposition:
Reduce marauder hp to 110 or 100, and reduce stim damage to 10 if 100, and to 15 if 110. Reduce tank gas cost to 100 or increase hp to 175 or 200.
On April 04 2010 13:57 MeProU_Kor wrote: a stalker wins a 1n1 fight usually or am i wrong? my stalkers always won with dunno... red HP bar left and shield points go so fast to max again that it isnt a real problem.
You shouldn't compare them one to one. It doesn't happen in the game. Please check my previous post where it's clear that maradeurs are 6 times more efficient than stalkers.
It's not clear, because you ignored things like stim cost and research time, unit hp pool and timings. When talking about balance you can't hold other things ceteris paribus.
No. Zealots are actually quite cost effective vs ultras. The reason ultras are great is because they are basically immune to storm and tank cannon fire really well. They also soak up a lot of hits so that lings can tear through everything else. Also, lategame gas is much easier to come by than minerals, so a unit that's 200/200 can actually prove to be quite efficient.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1.
LOL. YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED YOU KNOW THAT? Fully upgraded ultras have 7 armor, 26 damage, 400 HP Fully upgraded lings have 35 hp, 3 armor, 8 damage Ultra 2-hits a ling and attacks very fast in a fight a ling does ONE DAMAGE to an ultra. 400+ hits needed to kill just one ultra, unless you have a complete surround with like lings vs only 1 ultra an ultra will destroy lings. if you had like 4-5 ultras, you would need at about 100 lings to counter, and that might not even be enough. same thing with zlots, you have obviously never played BW PvZ or sucked at it so much you dont understand the MU at all. zlots dont do shit to ultras, its archons, storm, reavers and goons that do the damage, the zlots just tank for those more expensive units. in case you still dont get it, 1 fully upgraded zlot does 8 damage to a fully upgraded ultra. 50+ hits to kill if you account for regeneration. ultra kills a zlot with only 56 damage taken.
On April 04 2010 13:07 SoFFacet wrote: Serious question: sans Marauder spam, what can Terran do vs Protoss? All my rines always get raped by collosi or storm. All metal raped by Immortals. All Air raped by stalkers or storm. It always feels like Toss can A-move me at any time, whereas I always have to have all my units positioned correctly, make sure they fire at the correct things, use their abilities at the correct times and places, etc, and even then probably still get raped by an equal food Toss army + at most 10 mouse clicks.
ya when you move into late game it can get hard lots micro from both sides needed to win. The right storm is GG but the right emps on HT can be GG . Like really late game toss Terran is all about who micros the ghost or HT better lol oh and the terran needs to make sure to take out the colos with viks or he will still lose even if he micros better.
As far as EMP vs Storm late game goes, Terran is at a large disadvantage. In order to know where you're going to need to EMP to even hit the templar, you need to scan (while the protoss will have an observer with them and likely another trying to follow your army). In addition, assuming equal skill, the protoss can simply feedback a ghost before it gets an EMP off. Hell, I've had toss players bringing templar solo to my natural to try to pick off as many ghosts as they can before I move out. =P
Yes. A lot of people overestimate ghosts versus templar because a protoss will almost always have an observer following terran's army around... so it is generally a lot easier to feedback a ghost before a ghost can EMP templar
I think we need marauders defense to go down so Lings/units actually do damage to them, and gas up to 50. Maybe damage down abit too. Basically make them a unit that is good, but not so good that terrans dont even build anything else, like they are right now.
Is it just me, when I first heard of Marauders in SC2 (before beta was out).. I assumed they were going to be just a simple slowing unit, while the MARINES were the "damage-dealer".. So basically, the marauders slow, and do small damage, but the marines do the large damage. That is what I assumed their role was going to be, not the reverse.. I think that is how it should be.
Almost like how Sentries are weaker than stalkers, but still do decent damage, and provide that extra "edge" (ie forcefield/shield vs marauders slow).. Not how Marauders really are which are stronger than 2 stalkers combined.
On April 04 2010 13:31 dNo_O wrote: if they lowered how long the slow lasted wouldn't that fix this? you couldn't just run 1 marauder around 3 zealots if he didn't attack faster than slow wears off... right?
On April 04 2010 14:31 Sadistx wrote: Tank vs Marauder balance really has to be adjusted. It's pretty retarded that a tier 1.5 (infantry!) has 83% of the hp of a tier 2 unit for 20% of the gas cost. I have raped tank heavy terran armies by splitting into 3-4 marauder groups and 1-shotting their tanks before they can get a 2nd volley off and simply a-moving the rest of the army.
Plus tanks ability needs to be researched.
My personal proposition:
Reduce marauder hp to 110 or 100, and reduce stim damage to 10 if 100, and to 15 if 110. Reduce tank gas cost to 100 or increase hp to 175 or 200.
On April 04 2010 13:57 MeProU_Kor wrote: a stalker wins a 1n1 fight usually or am i wrong? my stalkers always won with dunno... red HP bar left and shield points go so fast to max again that it isnt a real problem.
You shouldn't compare them one to one. It doesn't happen in the game. Please check my previous post where it's clear that maradeurs are 6 times more efficient than stalkers.
It's not clear, because you ignored things like stim cost and research time, unit hp pool and timings. When talking about balance you can't hold other things ceteris paribus.
Tanks rape Marauders. I allways laugh when a Terran goes MM or straight Marauders VS a mech build terran go straight tanks Wall up siege expand hit the crit. # of tanks with viks spotter and watch the marauders go splat before they even get close. Oh and keep them in 3 controll groups and siege them a bit apart from each other.
Remeber this is a support unit so you ethier need alot of them or with back up ground force if you are moving out in small #'s it is meant to die its a support unit not a front line takes hits fighter.
Also for those Nerfs yaaaaa no thats way to much and uncalled for. Again only thing you need to do is make the units that meant to counter it counter it. Just make zealots and Zerglings immune to slow. Any dmg nerf or stim nerf will hurt it wayyyy to much late game. Where as the immune to slow will fix it early game but still leave it same late game cause speedlings and charge zealots anyways.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1.
LOL. YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED YOU KNOW THAT? Fully upgraded ultras have 6 armor, 29 damage, 400 HP Fully upgraded lings have 35 hp, 3 armor, 8 damage Ultra 2-hits a ling and attacks very fast in a fight a ling does Two DAMAGE to an ultra. 200+ hits needed to kill just one ultra, unless you have a complete surround with like lings vs only 1 ultra an ultra will destroy lings. if you had like 4-5 ultras, you would need at about 35 lings to counter, and that will be enough. same thing with zlots, you have obviously never played BW PvZ or sucked at it so much you dont understand the MU at all. zlots do decent damage to ultras, its archons, storm, reavers and goons that do the good damage, the zlots just tank for those more expensive units. I mean 4 ultras get killed by twelve zealots with decent micro. in case you still dont get it, 1 fully upgraded zlot does 10 damage to a fully upgraded ultra. 40+ hits to kill if you account for regeneration. ultra kills a zlot with only 48 damage taken with full ups, but 88 damage taken with no ups.
OMG FUCKING NO WAI! I DIDN'T EVEN NOE THAT ULTRAS HAD +2 AMOR!
Seriously calm down and put your dick away. Obviously ultras tank lings hard with all their ups, but lings are cost effective against them in a neutral upgrade fight (Full ups, counting adrenal glands and chit plating), mostly because it takes a while for the ultralisk to lower the DPS of ten zerglings.
Zealots do a little worse. This is still just for vanilla fights, which do apply in real life situations, considering the +2 armor upgrade takes a while.
Edit: I fixed your numbers and here are some statistics. No upgrades Zerglings vs Ultra (Great Surround) 7 lings Zerglings vs Ultra (Decent Surround) 8 lings Zealots vs Ultra 3 zlots
Full upgrades Zerglings vs Ultra (Great Surround) 9 lings Zerglings vs Ultra (Decent Surround) 10 lings Zealots vs Ultra 4 zlots
So chit plating helps quite a bit, making the supply need for zerglings and zealots quite high, but still not putting it out of reach to beat the ultras entirely.
Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)
-range down to 5 from 6 -HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor) -Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10 -Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20
+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25
Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.
As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.
4 zerglings? Marauder wins. 1 hydra? marauder wins. 1 roach? marauder wins. 1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins. 1 immortal? 3marauders win. 1 colossus? 3 marauders win. 1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run. Storm, feedback? -> EMP surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.
Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks, and ultralisks with hydra or ling support. It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.
On April 04 2010 16:29 Landsoul wrote: Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)
-range down to 5 from 6 -HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor) -Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10 -Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20
+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25
Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.
As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.
4 zerglings? Marauder wins. 1 hydra? marauder wins. 1 roach? marauder wins. 1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins. 1 immortal? 3marauders win. 1 colossus? 3 marauders win. 1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run. Storm, feedback? -> EMP surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.
Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks, and ultralisks with hydra or ling support. It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.
Don't forget to buff smth else if nerfing maradeurs, because rest of terran ground army sux
Not to mention that colossus require 200 gas (8 Maradeurs!)
On April 04 2010 16:29 Landsoul wrote: Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)
-range down to 5 from 6 -HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor) -Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10 -Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20
+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25
Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.
As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.
4 zerglings? Marauder wins. 1 hydra? marauder wins. 1 roach? marauder wins. 1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins. 1 immortal? 3marauders win. 1 colossus? 3 marauders win. 1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run. Storm, feedback? -> EMP surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.
Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks, and ultralisks with hydra or ling support. It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.
Good with first line but any other Nerf would kill terran ground army Marauders do less dmg then Rines on none armored targets stimed or not. Only thing that makes Marauders OP is they slow the thing that should counter them the sec you change that it fixes them.
also 1 colo > 3 marauders 1 Zealot , Stalker > marauder 1 ultra > 3 Marauders 1 roach? marauder wins its the counter to the roachs ... 4 zerglings? Marauder wins just like Rines are counter immortals or Hydras but you need more of them to couter those units. Even tho they are made to i don't think rines counter hydras they get riped up : P
Not sure on others think hydra and immortal would win
Tanks rape Marauders. I allways laugh when a Terran goes MM or straight Marauders VS a mech build terran go straight tanks Wall up siege expand hit the crit. # of tanks with viks spotter
Fact + tank + tech lab + siege is how many marauders worth? Pretty sure there's a timing window when he can just walk up the ramp and straight up rape everything you have if you tech like that, unless you get bunkers or something.
Tanks rape Marauders. I allways laugh when a Terran goes MM or straight Marauders VS a mech build terran go straight tanks Wall up siege expand hit the crit. # of tanks with viks spotter
Fact + tank + tech lab + siege is how many marauders worth? Pretty sure there's a timing window when he can just walk up the ramp and straight up rape everything you have if you tech like that, unless you get bunkers or something.
1 bunker and wall in and lol at him as they all die expand when you have a couple of tanks lol when he trys to take it and his stuff goes boom ! Extra mins into Turrents and rines. rines for that extrz meat shield but not needed or hellions.
Fact Expo in TvT is always tricky because you have to prepare vs two completely opposite strategies, Marauder bust and 2port Banshee. To be safe vs both you need 3 turrets per mineral line, a bunker at the mutual choke, 3+ tanks behind that bunker, and a swarm of marines and a turret to guard those tanks. Scanning their base once at a critical time to see whats up so you can cut corners on what looks less likely to hit first is usually the only way to pull through.
On April 03 2010 01:51 depthsofchaos wrote: I think the best solution would be slowing them down, why would they have the same speed as marine. This would remove their crazy hit and run ability that destroys anything without a loss (just seen a replay where 6 marauder killed 7 full armored ultralisk without any of them dying, it just felt really stupid). This would allow zealots to catch up sometimes and make force field an option against them.
Are you serious? Get out... You know that the Ultralisk CANNOT be slowed by the marauders because it's massive. You do not have the right to have a beta key, and that's if you actually have one if you are not going to help balance the game. I hope I was being trolled...
That replay about that PvT Marauder Rush being stopped is pretty impressive. And albeit the racks was delayed by around 10 seconds on faster, the protoss stopped making units from time to time because of not being used to the build. This is powerful, but not so powerful that it cannot be stopped by a good player.
Bad trolling mr, at least back up your bullshit. Ultras can't catch up to marauders with stim before they die even tho they can't be slowed which I know (without a beta key). Think I'm lying just for fun? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gl7a1CDQHI
OMFG! This video clearly shows how maradeurs are overpowered. I thought that they had slight advantage. But this is too much... and they cost only 25 gas.
Waaaat da hel iz zat???? Where are you lookin' blizs?
How does Marauders killing Ultralisks prove they are OP? Pretty sure Marauder is suppose to counter Ultras. And the only reason that mass of Hydras died is because his opponent made a key mistake at a bad time. He had all his Hydras on move left instead of attack-move and the vast majority of them died without even attacking or retreating. Just walking past the marauders in attack range.
Maybe marauder is OP. But this 5mins of this game does not prove it at all imo.
Hey idiot, how on earth 1.5 tier pure ground unit supposed to counter high tech pure ground units which are way way more expensive 25 vs 200 gas? are you saying terrans must win all ground armies with only one cheap unit. You definitely don't know what is balance. Please refer to my previous post where I proved why maradeurs are overpowered. I am not gonna explain it again.
5 mins of this game a very good example. We see it everywhere. Why do you think terrans spam maradeurs in every matchup?
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1.
LOL. YOU ARE FUCKING RETARDED YOU KNOW THAT? Fully upgraded ultras have 6 armor, 29 damage, 400 HP Fully upgraded lings have 35 hp, 3 armor, 8 damage Ultra 2-hits a ling and attacks very fast in a fight a ling does Two DAMAGE to an ultra. 200+ hits needed to kill just one ultra, unless you have a complete surround with like lings vs only 1 ultra an ultra will destroy lings. if you had like 4-5 ultras, you would need at about 35 lings to counter, and that will be enough. same thing with zlots, you have obviously never played BW PvZ or sucked at it so much you dont understand the MU at all. zlots do decent damage to ultras, its archons, storm, reavers and goons that do the good damage, the zlots just tank for those more expensive units. I mean 4 ultras get killed by twelve zealots with decent micro. in case you still dont get it, 1 fully upgraded zlot does 10 damage to a fully upgraded ultra. 40+ hits to kill if you account for regeneration. ultra kills a zlot with only 48 damage taken with full ups, but 88 damage taken with no ups.
OMG FUCKING NO WAI! I DIDN'T EVEN NOE THAT ULTRAS HAD +2 AMOR!
Seriously calm down and put your dick away. Obviously ultras tank lings hard with all their ups, but lings are cost effective against them in a neutral upgrade fight (Full ups, counting adrenal glands and chit plating), mostly because it takes a while for the ultralisk to lower the DPS of ten zerglings.
Zealots do a little worse. This is still just for vanilla fights, which do apply in real life situations, considering the +2 armor upgrade takes a while.
Edit: I fixed your numbers and here are some statistics. No upgrades Zerglings vs Ultra (Great Surround) 7 lings Zerglings vs Ultra (Decent Surround) 8 lings Zealots vs Ultra 3 zlots
Full upgrades Zerglings vs Ultra (Great Surround) 9 lings Zerglings vs Ultra (Decent Surround) 10 lings Zealots vs Ultra 4 zlots
So chit plating helps quite a bit, making the supply need for zerglings and zealots quite high, but still not putting it out of reach to beat the ultras entirely.
On April 04 2010 16:29 Landsoul wrote: Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)
-range down to 5 from 6 -HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor) -Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10 -Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20
+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25
Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.
As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.
4 zerglings? Marauder wins. 1 hydra? marauder wins. 1 roach? marauder wins. 1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins. 1 immortal? 3marauders win. 1 colossus? 3 marauders win. 1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run. Storm, feedback? -> EMP surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.
Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks, and ultralisks with hydra or ling support. It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.
Don't forget to buff smth else if nerfing maradeurs, because rest of terran ground army sux
Not to mention that colossus require 200 gas (8 Maradeurs!)
And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
On April 04 2010 16:29 Landsoul wrote: Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)
-range down to 5 from 6 -HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor) -Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10 -Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20
+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25
Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.
As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.
4 zerglings? Marauder wins. 1 hydra? marauder wins. 1 roach? marauder wins. 1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins. 1 immortal? 3marauders win. 1 colossus? 3 marauders win. 1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run. Storm, feedback? -> EMP surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.
Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks, and ultralisks with hydra or ling support. It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.
Don't forget to buff smth else if nerfing maradeurs, because rest of terran ground army sux
Not to mention that colossus require 200 gas (8 Maradeurs!)
And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
Marines poor to mediocre against all units in TvP. Zealots tear them since kiting is nowhere near 100% viable; stalkers 4-shot them and are faster with greater range; sentries aren't really meant to be fighting units but they can still kill marines; dark templars 1 hit kill marines w/o upgrades; colossi devastate marines; immortals 2-shot marines. Void rays can outmicro marines if both are in small numbers. For marines to perform well, medivac, stim, and other upgrades are almost a necessity, and even then they have to severely outnumber the opponent (this is TvP)
Reapers are great for harass, but not fit at all for a main army composition
Ghosts are great for EMP, but we're talking about ground battles units and not casters, which a ghost essentially is.
Marauders are the staple of the T army; they're pretty much like the dragoon of sc bw. I'm not saying the units are similar; rather, I'm saying that, dragoons are the staple of the P army in SCBW, and if people call for nerfing the dragoon Ps will have strong opinions to share about it. Marauders are the staple of the Terran army, and nerfing marauders will have significant impact on all terran matchups.
It's like the roach. I have read more threads from every type of player who believe that roaches are imba (all races). But there came about like 3~5 threads that talk about why roaches are important and they shouldn't be nerfed. Marauders are as important to terrans as of now as roaches are to the zerg, and nerfing it would probably extremify the balances if no appropriate improvements are made in other areas.
Solution is easy: Making Force Field do your units inmune to slow would be a posibility.
If you complain about OP rush, get a hold on yourselves, a rush is a rush, no matter what. I mean, in BW, terran had to turtleshield as soon as possible because the most viable strategy was going mech. Terrans couldn't do anything viable against a fast attack from protoss if they didn't do this.
¿Ways to counter this marauder rush? SCOUTING ASAP. If you have to turtle this time (cannons works great early game against marauders 1cannon>>>2marauders, more if it's in cliff) then .don't complain and do it, terrans had to in BW and this is a completly different game.
If you get past that rush (you should easily), mix army, an Immortal won't save you, they will focus it. Besides, by the time he gets stimpack, you should have a propper army, sentrys too. I have seen matches were the protoss player does hallucinations and it works great, it can attract the EMP, saving your units, and they serve as meat shield for marauders, like zealots do. A terran can't micro easily against zealots and stalkers together if you know what you are doing.
Reaserching blink early is great too, micro with it, put your wounded units behind the others as fast as you can with this ability to maximize your army eficiency.
The game is still beta, is easier to say an unit is broken before trying to actually counter it.
If you don't understand something, sorry, english is not my mother language .
On April 04 2010 16:29 Landsoul wrote: Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)
-range down to 5 from 6 -HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor) -Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10 -Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20
+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25
Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.
As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.
4 zerglings? Marauder wins. 1 hydra? marauder wins. 1 roach? marauder wins. 1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins. 1 immortal? 3marauders win. 1 colossus? 3 marauders win. 1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run. Storm, feedback? -> EMP surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.
Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks, and ultralisks with hydra or ling support. It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.
Don't forget to buff smth else if nerfing maradeurs, because rest of terran ground army sux
Not to mention that colossus require 200 gas (8 Maradeurs!)
And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
Marines poor to mediocre against all units in TvP. Zealots tear them since kiting is nowhere near 100% viable; stalkers 4-shot them and are faster with greater range; sentries aren't really meant to be fighting units but they can still kill marines; dark templars 1 hit kill marines w/o upgrades; colossi devastate marines; immortals 2-shot marines. Void rays can outmicro marines if both are in small numbers. For marines to perform well, medivac, stim, and other upgrades are almost a necessity, and even then they have to severely outnumber the opponent (this is TvP)
Reapers are great for harass, but not fit at all for a main army composition
Ghosts are great for EMP, but we're talking about ground battles units and not casters, which a ghost essentially is.
Marauders are the staple of the T army; they're pretty much like the dragoon of sc bw. I'm not saying the units are similar; rather, I'm saying that, dragoons are the staple of the P army in SCBW, and if people call for nerfing the dragoon Ps will have strong opinions to share about it. Marauders are the staple of the Terran army, and nerfing marauders will have significant impact on all terran matchups.
It's like the roach. I have read more threads from every type of player who believe that roaches are imba (all races). But there came about like 3~5 threads that talk about why roaches are important and they shouldn't be nerfed. Marauders are as important to terrans as of now as roaches are to the zerg, and nerfing it would probably extremify the balances if no appropriate improvements are made in other areas.
So much wrong info in this post. Stalkers take 5 hits to kill marines. Immortals take 3. "Void rays can outmicro marines." Why the hell would that situation even occur, and no, they really can't. A handful of marines handles a voidray fine.
Marauders are not the dragoons of SC2. Do goons have stim? Do goons slow their targets? Do goons cost 100/25? Marauders have too much going for them right now. Notice how protoss players in BW don't make 100% goons. Goons are very versatile early, but you can't just make goons. People actually are making JUST marauders, and it's working. They just need some nerfs.
Oh, please stop now. Almost everyone understands that maradeurs are overpowered (not Terran race). Wait and see what Blizs will do about it.
There are still dumbass idiots who are convinced that maradeurs are ok and nothing can make them think otherwise. Don't waste your nerves and time. Just have fun and wait.
On April 04 2010 22:14 Slick348 wrote:And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
All of them. All bio raped by Collosi and Storm. All metal raped by Immortal (with help from Storm and Stalker). All non-BC air raped by Stalker. BCs (if you live that long) raped by Void Rays.
The most stupid game I've played this beta, I was 2 base vs 2 base vs Toss on Steppes. He A-moved my natural with an equal food army and won easily even though I had several preseiged tanks, a bunker in front, and EMPed most of his army.
On April 05 2010 01:05 hellitsaboutme wrote: Oh, please stop now. Almost everyone understands that maradeurs are overpowered (not Terran race). Wait and see what Blizs will do about it.
There are still dumbass idiots who are convinced that maradeurs are ok and nothing can make them think otherwise. Don't waste your nerves and time. Just have fun and wait.
Think 95 % of the people here think they are OP just lots of the nerfs people are calling for are way to much when marines where just nerfed so much and MM is our Main ground army.
Really just Marauders need there counters they have none right now with good micro. Without the micro the zealots and zergling do great VS them make them immune to slow problem sloved. If you want more Marauder nerfs need to unnerf marines. Remove reactor nerf and toss on another 5 sec to Marauder build times or somthing.
Can't do all these heavy nerfs that people want tho right after the marines were hit so hard.
We don't have to do all the nerfs. Just one should be sufficient. It's more of a "we're laying the uptions on the table, choose one" kind of deal. In fact, someone should just go ahead and make a "how do we nerf maras?" poll. =P
On April 04 2010 16:29 Landsoul wrote: Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)
-range down to 5 from 6 -HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor) -Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10 -Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20
+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25
Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.
As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.
4 zerglings? Marauder wins. 1 hydra? marauder wins. 1 roach? marauder wins. 1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins. 1 immortal? 3marauders win. 1 colossus? 3 marauders win. 1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run. Storm, feedback? -> EMP surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.
Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks, and ultralisks with hydra or ling support. It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.
Don't forget to buff smth else if nerfing maradeurs, because rest of terran ground army sux
Not to mention that colossus require 200 gas (8 Maradeurs!)
And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
Marines poor to mediocre against all units in TvP. Zealots tear them since kiting is nowhere near 100% viable; stalkers 4-shot them and are faster with greater range; sentries aren't really meant to be fighting units but they can still kill marines; dark templars 1 hit kill marines w/o upgrades; colossi devastate marines; immortals 2-shot marines. Void rays can outmicro marines if both are in small numbers. For marines to perform well, medivac, stim, and other upgrades are almost a necessity, and even then they have to severely outnumber the opponent (this is TvP)
Reapers are great for harass, but not fit at all for a main army composition
Ghosts are great for EMP, but we're talking about ground battles units and not casters, which a ghost essentially is.
Marauders are the staple of the T army; they're pretty much like the dragoon of sc bw. I'm not saying the units are similar; rather, I'm saying that, dragoons are the staple of the P army in SCBW, and if people call for nerfing the dragoon Ps will have strong opinions to share about it. Marauders are the staple of the Terran army, and nerfing marauders will have significant impact on all terran matchups.
It's like the roach. I have read more threads from every type of player who believe that roaches are imba (all races). But there came about like 3~5 threads that talk about why roaches are important and they shouldn't be nerfed. Marauders are as important to terrans as of now as roaches are to the zerg, and nerfing it would probably extremify the balances if no appropriate improvements are made in other areas.
So much wrong info in this post. Stalkers take 5 hits to kill marines. Immortals take 3. "Void rays can outmicro marines." Why the hell would that situation even occur, and no, they really can't. A handful of marines handles a voidray fine.
Marauders are not the dragoons of SC2. Do goons have stim? Do goons slow their targets? Do goons cost 100/25? Marauders have too much going for them right now. Notice how protoss players in BW don't make 100% goons. Goons are very versatile early, but you can't just make goons. People actually are making JUST marauders, and it's working. They just need some nerfs.
I'm pretty sure nujgnoy even said that he didn't mean SC1 Dragoons and SC2 Marauders were both similar, but that they're both staple units and removing or greatly nerfing them would severely hurts Protoss/Terran. Would you disagree with that point currently? Note that I agree with Marauders currently being far too powerful and prevalent in SC2 Terran, but there are some other problems in TvP that need to be sorted out as well.
If you DO have some good Terran strats for TvP that don't involve Marauders, it'd be interesting to hear about them. The only good one I've seen is mass nuking and drop/air harassing all the time by TL1, and that involved not engaging the P army at all.
Until recently I've had a lot of success with hellion drops into tank/shee with dropships on some maps, but people actually learned to make stalkers early now so it's not too effective anymore.
I prefer going 1 fact FE into ghostmech (1 rax 4 fact) and doing a strong midgame push to take my 3rd or even kill him. Most toss will play really aggressive and this seems to counter aggression pretty well IF you play super tight. It's very fragile though, and every tank and turret has to be so perfect, and you need to scan constantly. However, it is really good. It also leads to really exciting and interesting games.
On April 05 2010 05:43 Floophead_III wrote: Until recently I've had a lot of success with hellion drops into tank/shee with dropships on some maps, but people actually learned to make stalkers early now so it's not too effective anymore.
I prefer going 1 fact FE into ghostmech (1 rax 4 fact) and doing a strong midgame push to take my 3rd or even kill him. Most toss will play really aggressive and this seems to counter aggression pretty well IF you play super tight. It's very fragile though, and every tank and turret has to be so perfect, and you need to scan constantly. However, it is really good. It also leads to really exciting and interesting games.
Interesting. What is your unit composition/positioning like for this strat? You mention Tanks and Turrets, so I'm assuming you have them in the back. What do you have protecting them in front? It seems as though Chargelots, Immortals or blinky Stalkers will be able to handle a Tank/Turret push, but it'll depend on what you have defending them.
On April 05 2010 04:28 Floophead_III wrote: We don't have to do all the nerfs. Just one should be sufficient. It's more of a "we're laying the uptions on the table, choose one" kind of deal. In fact, someone should just go ahead and make a "how do we nerf maras?" poll. =P
Ya another problem nerfing them late game and not just early game where they need the nerf. Late game they are balanced with all the tech and units the protoss can toss out and it becomes and real close to 50/50 battle with toss in lead maybe by a bit. Nerf needs to be early game only
My suggestion is to make marauder slow an upgraded ability. Put it on tech lab and makes the upgrade takes 2 minute to finish. The upgrade will also be dirt cheap, something in the ball park of 25/25 so the main thing the upgrade is there is so that it will stop marauder from doing super lame cheese.
On April 05 2010 08:02 Yamoth wrote: My suggestion is to make marauder slow an upgraded ability. Put it on tech lab and makes the upgrade takes 2 minute to finish. The upgrade will also be dirt cheap, something in the ball park of 25/25 so the main thing the upgrade is there is so that it will stop marauder from doing super lame cheese.
that the point, this doesn't change the dynamic of late mid or late game marauder usage at all. All this really do is make zealot capable of stopping marauder till stalker come out and give toss a fighting chance against 9 and 10 gate marauder.
On April 02 2010 08:46 Bibdy wrote: Its all the rage in Platinum at the moment. Its hilariously strong considering they're just spamming a single unit. They'll get around to fixing it eventually.
Without a three-way combination of a wall of Zealots to take the hits, Sentries to Force Field and Immortals to gun them down, you're pretty much screwed.
On April 02 2010 08:46 Bibdy wrote: Its all the rage in Platinum at the moment. Its hilariously strong considering they're just spamming a single unit. They'll get around to fixing it eventually.
Without a three-way combination of a wall of Zealots to take the hits, Sentries to Force Field and Immortals to gun them down, you're pretty much screwed.
Orb is always raging over marauders lol
And everyone rages over the forcefields he does lol its the circle of life ! lol
On April 04 2010 22:14 Slick348 wrote:And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
All of them. All bio raped by Collosi and Storm. All metal raped by Immortal (with help from Storm and Stalker). All non-BC air raped by Stalker. BCs (if you live that long) raped by Void Rays.
The most stupid game I've played this beta, I was 2 base vs 2 base vs Toss on Steppes. He A-moved my natural with an equal food army and won easily even though I had several preseiged tanks, a bunker in front, and EMPed most of his army.
Wrong lol, I find marines are the best starting off unit 1. Because it can attack both ground and air at a cost of 50 minerals each 2. In a group it can take down buildings, carriers, void rays, phoenix, zealots and archons if microd properly
Terran has such good units that your stupid for saying they all get raped. Colossus go down pretty vast by vikings(far range), banshees are good against fighting stalkers. Ghost has such good abilities, if they don't wanna nerf him then don't, but they need to change EMP(splash). Nukes(splash) are really good since you win the resource battle, you make him lose more resources than you lost by making the nuke. Raven's good, deploys a sentry bot and something else that does splash damage. Tanks(splash) are especially good. I could go on and on, but don't feel like repeating myself to 50 different ppl
I don't know if it has been already posted but why not build a large squad of zealots with a couple of sentries in a first time, and quickly tech to the colossus ?
At the first battle, use the barrier ability behind the marauders in order to cut their options to kite. This first battle is just made to force the terran player to play more defensively.
Then, tech quickly to colossus and keep the squad of zealot enough large. Yes, it's a 3-unit strategy but I guess if you have a large squad of zealot and one or a couple of colossus, the marauders squad will be obliterated.
Is it better than the zealot-sentry-immortal strategy ?
For sure you must micro the colossus and keep the pressure with the zealots squad in order to keep the colossus alive.
I just don't understand how Blizzard thought it would be a great idea to implement the Marauder, Roach, and Immortal knowing that these 3 units do so well against so many units and also specialize as hard counter units. It comes to the point that there's no reason to NOT get these units.
The passive slow effect REALLY needs to be adjusted. Some of you may say it's not a big deal, but when you really think about it, it completely goes against the nature of SC1's e-sportness. SC1 had several counter features. Lurkers were great against zealots and marines. Goons are great against vultures. Archons are great against mutalisks. But what have we seen from the pro-scene? Despite these counters, pro players can still utilize these "countered" units in a fashion that they can still compete back.
How is this possible? The "countered" units can micro to compensate for the counter. You can split marines or run a couple of zealots pass the lurkers to even the fight. You can place mines and trap goons to even the fight. You can stack mutalisks and attempt to out-range/hit and run the archons. These excellent displays of micro are key to both increasing the in-depth gameplay and become much more appealing to the audience as an e-sport. But establishing a unit that out-ranges AND slows your units, you'll never have a single unit that can combat this army alone. Suddenly, micro is taken out of the equation. This is just against the philosophy behind SC1 imo.
A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal.
I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games.
I'm quite sure the issue here is a marauder rush, not a midgame marauder mass, then attack. I mean, rushing 1-gate to cyber core to robo takes too long to defend well against a rush, and any terran scouting this will be able to initiate an attack before immortals can even start to pop out.
In Tone of ZvT, some Well-placed banelings can demolish an early M&M attack since the buff to 20/15.
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.
I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.
too bad roaches alone cant stand up to any type of marauder, or immortal army and are cheese for ZvZ vanilla fights in the North american servers ATM.
On April 04 2010 22:14 Slick348 wrote:And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations
All of them. All bio raped by Collosi and Storm. All metal raped by Immortal (with help from Storm and Stalker). All non-BC air raped by Stalker. BCs (if you live that long) raped by Void Rays.
The most stupid game I've played this beta, I was 2 base vs 2 base vs Toss on Steppes. He A-moved my natural with an equal food army and won easily even though I had several preseiged tanks, a bunker in front, and EMPed most of his army.
Wrong lol, I find marines are the best starting off unit 1. Because it can attack both ground and air at a cost of 50 minerals each 2. In a group it can take down buildings, carriers, void rays, phoenix, zealots and archons if microd properly
Terran has such good units that your stupid for saying they all get raped. Colossus go down pretty vast by vikings(far range), banshees are good against fighting stalkers. Ghost has such good abilities, if they don't wanna nerf him then don't, but they need to change EMP(splash). Nukes(splash) are really good since you win the resource battle, you make him lose more resources than you lost by making the nuke. Raven's good, deploys a sentry bot and something else that does splash damage. Tanks(splash) are especially good. I could go on and on, but don't feel like repeating myself to 50 different ppl
Mmmmmm theorycraft is tasty isn't it?
So Vikings are good to use against Colossi, but Colossi do splash damage, so they'll kill off the Marines quickly and can tank some hits from the Vikings. 3 immediate attacks from Colossi guarantee a Marine barbeque, while it'd take 18 total hits from Vikings to kill one Colossus. If you intend to mass Vikings to kill Colossi faster, not only are they costlier than Marauders, they also have equal hit points, require more resources and have 1 less armor. If you intend to use Vikings in air form against Colossi, each Viking is going to do 10(+1) x 2 damage every 2 cooldown, while Marauders deal 10(+1) damage every 1.5 cooldown with +10(+1) damage bonus against the Colossi. That's pretty retarded.
Yes I agree Marauders are way too good for their cost and placement in the Terran tech tree. And I also believe that other Terran units need some changes, because they're really not as effective as you imply they are.
As for Banshees, Observers > them. Coincidentally Banshees can't attack air, which means even if you scan for Obs they can't get rid of them like Wraiths could back in SC1. So Stalkers > uncloaked Banshees, Stalkers + Observers >> Banshees. Terran can have Vikings paired with Banshees in order to deal with the Observers, but by doing so the Terran has definitely spent more on resources than the Protoss has.
As for the section about Marines, lol. If you have a video of you beating Carriers with Marines, put it on Youtube so I can laugh about someone who can't micro siege ranged capital ships against basic ranged infantry. Really though? That's like saying micro'd Marines can beat Guardians (or Carriers!) in SC1, which is possible but requires the Zerg/Protoss player to be completely inept. You want to hinge your position on that?
Void Rays I can accept, not sure why you threw Phoenii in there since Phoenii aren't expected to engage Marines, and Archons got their splash area nerfed to oblivion, which is unfortunate. If you have videos of micro'd Marines beating Chargelots, that'd be very cool to see too
Actually, food for food banshees are more efficient than stalkers in that fight. Banshee mass with viking support is pretty hard to deal with as P until you can feedback the banshees.
A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal.
I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games.
I'm quite sure the issue here is a marauder rush, not a midgame marauder mass, then attack. I mean, rushing 1-gate to cyber core to robo takes too long to defend well against a rush, and any terran scouting this will be able to initiate an attack before immortals can even start to pop out.
In Tone of ZvT, some Well-placed banelings can demolish an early M&M attack since the buff to 20/15.
Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.
I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.
too bad roaches alone cant stand up to any type of marauder, or immortal army and are cheese for ZvZ vanilla fights in the North american servers ATM.
yep that is the problem with marauders wow somone gets it !
well Marauders and immortals are the counter to roachs /shrug
On April 06 2010 02:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Actually, food for food banshees are more efficient than stalkers in that fight. Banshee mass with viking support is pretty hard to deal with as P until you can feedback the banshees.
My mistake. Thanks for the clarification.
Pardon my reiteration, but in case it isn't clear my position isn't that Marauders are fine, just that TvP doesn't magically become okay if Marauders get nerfed and Terran are left alone after that.
On April 06 2010 02:50 WorkersOfTheWorld wrote: Actually, food for food banshees are more efficient than stalkers in that fight. Banshee mass with viking support is pretty hard to deal with as P until you can feedback the banshees.
My mistake. Thanks for the clarification.
Pardon my reiteration, but in case it isn't clear my position isn't that Marauders are fine, just that TvP doesn't magically become okay if Marauders get nerfed and Terran are left alone after that.
by the time you can mass the banshees tho you should have seen this with scouts and have gotten HT allready. Stalkers/ sentrys to deal with them at the start is more then enough then when you hit HT's he is done if he does not switch techs.
So after 15 pages of bitching posts...can we come back to the topic?
TvP Marauder Cheese
We don't talk about Collossi, Immortals or games that last 20 mins, we talk about cheese. About the Marauder rush against toss in the first minutes...the one where you barely finish your core have a few zealots and starts to pump a sentry or stalker while he kites your zealots and kills them one by one.
Someone show me some replays where toss can counter this and I will be happy.
Now the only SILLY idea I came up with this to put my 2 gases in his base while I scout...so his plan will be fucked up for a few minutes. Won't make me win but won't make me rage anymore.
btw I'm copper and when you do silly things people that do "tricks" found on the internet are often getting surprised and then they have to start to improvise. Ofc this wouldn't work for better player...
Anyways, show me some replays where toss counter this rush...all the math is boring, I like to SEE it
@ massairunits, do some proper research about vikings when you compare them to marauders.. vikings also have a bonus against armored (which all massive units are) so a viking does (10+4) x 2 = 28 per volley compared to the marauders 10+10 = 20. Vikings huge range whereas marauders get stuck by zealots when trying to kill a upgraded colossi makes the vikings very usefull for killing colossi.
As for marauder rushes, it can be stopped by the same fast stalkers that you do against reapers. Stalkers and marauders have bonusses against eachother and yes the marauder cost effectively beats the stalker but not by that much before stim comes around. Any terran that will use marauder rushes severely hurts his own economy and thus stalkers being less cost effective doesnt matter as much. If you use 1 chronoboost on a stalker the build time becomes 32, about the same as that of the marauder really. To fend this off you need to scout the aggresive rax opening, but given the existance of the reaper rush as well you need to scout reasonably fast against terran anyway. In that way i propose scouting on 9 supply. Build close to the nexus against T so you can pull probes easier when neccesary and give yourself more time, forwarding or creating a choke against terran isn't really useful. Against fast rax with tech lab, which means either reaper or marauder rushing, you go with a fast cybercore and a zealot. Save chronoboosts and chrono the stalkers. Stalkers with 1 zealot do fine against marauders, always make sure to send the zealot in first in which case they either focus on the zealot giving you free hits with the stalkers or switch to the stalkers in which case the zealot will get in some hits. Without stim it's not really possible for them to kite zealot/stalker as kiting the zealot will give your stalkers free hits. If they split their fire and target all your units with 1 marauder each they could theoretically but then they aren't focussing and your stalkers should win. Try to fight close to base and use probe's to function as the same role as the zealot when neccesary while keeping to chrono out stalkers. Add in a robo bay or stargate when you can, stargate counters marauders harder but given they will see it anyway i prefer the robo bay usually which is also cheaper on gas.
I don't think you should've revived a 1 month old thread for this.. the marauder rush discussed in this thread doesn't work anymore and it's precisely the reason why concussive shells was demoted to an upgrade instead of coming with the marauder straight out of the box. That's not to say that a 10 rax marauder build isn't annoying for protoss to handle, but none of the 14 previous pages hold any merit since they're from 2 patches ago.
On April 02 2010 09:00 Kare wrote: Zealots with charge and colossus would seriously RAPE a marine marauder army if they didnt have concussive blows, the charge would be way to good against it.
what? concussive blow doesn't do anything vs collosi, especially if they have upgraded range. Concussive blow loses its purpose as the game transitions into more ranged units for the toss, as seen in the replays it is blatantly imbalanced vs an early game toss.
I'm kind of confused on what you said but if you're saying protoss is imbalanced than i think you need to show me where Protoss wins in a TVP match between pros
Blizzard official stats have Protoss with a 54% win ratio over terran.
I'm kind of confused on what you said but if you're saying protoss is imbalanced than i think you need to show me where Protoss wins in a TVP match between pros
On April 02 2010 08:56 FrozenArbiter wrote: Marauders don't counter zealots or archons, and definitely don't counter the colossus... It can fight all those units, but it doesn't counter any of them.
They aren't a direct counter but I would argue that marauders are a good unit against the zealot.
Notice that this thread was created on APRIL 2nd now post-marauder nerf it is COMPLETELY different, they no longer start with slow... keep this in mind people, it is a 50/50 60 second upgrade.
EPT
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