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TvP Marauder Cheese - Page 14

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hellitsaboutme
Profile Joined March 2010
Singapore118 Posts
April 04 2010 16:05 GMT
#261
Oh, please stop now. Almost everyone understands that maradeurs are overpowered (not Terran race). Wait and see what Blizs will do about it.

There are still dumbass idiots who are convinced that maradeurs are ok and nothing can make them think otherwise. Don't waste your nerves and time. Just have fun and wait.
SoFFacet
Profile Joined March 2010
United States101 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-04 17:06:28
April 04 2010 17:04 GMT
#262
On April 04 2010 22:14 Slick348 wrote:And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations


All of them. All bio raped by Collosi and Storm. All metal raped by Immortal (with help from Storm and Stalker). All non-BC air raped by Stalker. BCs (if you live that long) raped by Void Rays.

The most stupid game I've played this beta, I was 2 base vs 2 base vs Toss on Steppes. He A-moved my natural with an equal food army and won easily even though I had several preseiged tanks, a bunker in front, and EMPed most of his army.
yarkO
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada810 Posts
April 04 2010 17:15 GMT
#263
Post the replay please, SoFFacet.
When you are prepared, there's no such thing as pressure.
xnub
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada610 Posts
April 04 2010 19:15 GMT
#264
On April 05 2010 01:05 hellitsaboutme wrote:
Oh, please stop now. Almost everyone understands that maradeurs are overpowered (not Terran race). Wait and see what Blizs will do about it.

There are still dumbass idiots who are convinced that maradeurs are ok and nothing can make them think otherwise. Don't waste your nerves and time. Just have fun and wait.



Think 95 % of the people here think they are OP just lots of the nerfs people are calling for are way to much when marines where just nerfed so much and MM is our Main ground army.

Really just Marauders need there counters they have none right now with good micro. Without the micro the zealots and zergling do great VS them make them immune to slow problem sloved. If you want more Marauder nerfs need to unnerf marines. Remove reactor nerf and toss on another 5 sec to Marauder build times or somthing.

Can't do all these heavy nerfs that people want tho right after the marines were hit so hard.
Loving the beta !! Weeeeeeee
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
April 04 2010 19:28 GMT
#265
We don't have to do all the nerfs. Just one should be sufficient. It's more of a "we're laying the uptions on the table, choose one" kind of deal. In fact, someone should just go ahead and make a "how do we nerf maras?" poll. =P
Half man, half bear, half pig.
MassAirUnits
Profile Joined April 2010
United States66 Posts
April 04 2010 20:29 GMT
#266
On April 05 2010 00:58 Floophead_III wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2010 23:39 nujgnoy wrote:
On April 04 2010 22:14 Slick348 wrote:
On April 04 2010 16:39 hellitsaboutme wrote:
On April 04 2010 16:29 Landsoul wrote:
Just make it to where Marauders' slow only affect armored units. Also, reducing either of the following (pick 1 or 2)

-range down to 5 from 6
-HP down by 10 (they already come with 1 armor)
-Base damage down by 2 to 8/10 from 10/10
-Increase stim health cost to 25 from 20

+Also Increase gas cost to 50 from 25

Another option could be to reword the effects of stim pack. Stim pack makes the unit twice as good for a measly health cost, turning your 200 food army into an army with the DPS of a ~300 food army.

As stated before dozens of times in this post, Marauder is really bread and butter for Terran right now because it's rediculously cost efficient and great all around combat unit which will destroy any other ground unit food for food, mineral for mineral, and gas for gas. They have good HP, great damage, and you can micro them pretty easy.

4 zerglings? Marauder wins.
1 hydra? marauder wins.
1 roach? marauder wins.
1 zealot, stalker? marauder wins.
1 immortal? 3marauders win.
1 colossus? 3 marauders win.
1 Ultra (without speed)? 3 marauders win. Just shoot stim and run.
Storm, feedback? -> EMP
surrounding melee units? fight in a choke, tank and get healed by medivacs.

Only ground combo I could think could stand toe to toe with them are well placed siege tanks,
and ultralisks with hydra or ling support.
It's too good, too cost efficient, and fairly easy to micromanage.

Don't forget to buff smth else if nerfing maradeurs, because rest of terran ground army sux

Not to mention that colossus require 200 gas (8 Maradeurs!)


And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations



Marines poor to mediocre against all units in TvP. Zealots tear them since kiting is nowhere near 100% viable; stalkers 4-shot them and are faster with greater range; sentries aren't really meant to be fighting units but they can still kill marines; dark templars 1 hit kill marines w/o upgrades; colossi devastate marines; immortals 2-shot marines. Void rays can outmicro marines if both are in small numbers.
For marines to perform well, medivac, stim, and other upgrades are almost a necessity, and even then they have to severely outnumber the opponent (this is TvP)

Reapers are great for harass, but not fit at all for a main army composition

Ghosts are great for EMP, but we're talking about ground battles units and not casters, which a ghost essentially is.

Marauders are the staple of the T army; they're pretty much like the dragoon of sc bw. I'm not saying the units are similar; rather, I'm saying that, dragoons are the staple of the P army in SCBW, and if people call for nerfing the dragoon Ps will have strong opinions to share about it. Marauders are the staple of the Terran army, and nerfing marauders will have significant impact on all terran matchups.

It's like the roach. I have read more threads from every type of player who believe that roaches are imba (all races). But there came about like 3~5 threads that talk about why roaches are important and they shouldn't be nerfed. Marauders are as important to terrans as of now as roaches are to the zerg, and nerfing it would probably extremify the balances if no appropriate improvements are made in other areas.


So much wrong info in this post. Stalkers take 5 hits to kill marines. Immortals take 3. "Void rays can outmicro marines." Why the hell would that situation even occur, and no, they really can't. A handful of marines handles a voidray fine.

Marauders are not the dragoons of SC2. Do goons have stim? Do goons slow their targets? Do goons cost 100/25? Marauders have too much going for them right now. Notice how protoss players in BW don't make 100% goons. Goons are very versatile early, but you can't just make goons. People actually are making JUST marauders, and it's working. They just need some nerfs.

I'm pretty sure nujgnoy even said that he didn't mean SC1 Dragoons and SC2 Marauders were both similar, but that they're both staple units and removing or greatly nerfing them would severely hurts Protoss/Terran. Would you disagree with that point currently? Note that I agree with Marauders currently being far too powerful and prevalent in SC2 Terran, but there are some other problems in TvP that need to be sorted out as well.

If you DO have some good Terran strats for TvP that don't involve Marauders, it'd be interesting to hear about them. The only good one I've seen is mass nuking and drop/air harassing all the time by TL1, and that involved not engaging the P army at all.
Fortune favors the bold!
Floophead_III
Profile Joined September 2009
United States1832 Posts
April 04 2010 20:43 GMT
#267
Until recently I've had a lot of success with hellion drops into tank/shee with dropships on some maps, but people actually learned to make stalkers early now so it's not too effective anymore.

I prefer going 1 fact FE into ghostmech (1 rax 4 fact) and doing a strong midgame push to take my 3rd or even kill him. Most toss will play really aggressive and this seems to counter aggression pretty well IF you play super tight. It's very fragile though, and every tank and turret has to be so perfect, and you need to scan constantly. However, it is really good. It also leads to really exciting and interesting games.
Half man, half bear, half pig.
MassAirUnits
Profile Joined April 2010
United States66 Posts
April 04 2010 21:13 GMT
#268
On April 05 2010 05:43 Floophead_III wrote:
Until recently I've had a lot of success with hellion drops into tank/shee with dropships on some maps, but people actually learned to make stalkers early now so it's not too effective anymore.

I prefer going 1 fact FE into ghostmech (1 rax 4 fact) and doing a strong midgame push to take my 3rd or even kill him. Most toss will play really aggressive and this seems to counter aggression pretty well IF you play super tight. It's very fragile though, and every tank and turret has to be so perfect, and you need to scan constantly. However, it is really good. It also leads to really exciting and interesting games.

Interesting. What is your unit composition/positioning like for this strat? You mention Tanks and Turrets, so I'm assuming you have them in the back. What do you have protecting them in front? It seems as though Chargelots, Immortals or blinky Stalkers will be able to handle a Tank/Turret push, but it'll depend on what you have defending them.
Fortune favors the bold!
xnub
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada610 Posts
April 04 2010 22:01 GMT
#269
On April 05 2010 04:28 Floophead_III wrote:
We don't have to do all the nerfs. Just one should be sufficient. It's more of a "we're laying the uptions on the table, choose one" kind of deal. In fact, someone should just go ahead and make a "how do we nerf maras?" poll. =P


Ya another problem nerfing them late game and not just early game where they need the nerf. Late game they are balanced with all the tech and units the protoss can toss out and it becomes and real close to 50/50 battle with toss in lead maybe by a bit. Nerf needs to be early game only
Loving the beta !! Weeeeeeee
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
April 04 2010 23:02 GMT
#270
My suggestion is to make marauder slow an upgraded ability. Put it on tech lab and makes the upgrade takes 2 minute to finish. The upgrade will also be dirt cheap, something in the ball park of 25/25 so the main thing the upgrade is there is so that it will stop marauder from doing super lame cheese.
Koffiegast
Profile Joined February 2010
Netherlands346 Posts
April 04 2010 23:27 GMT
#271
On April 05 2010 08:02 Yamoth wrote:
My suggestion is to make marauder slow an upgraded ability. Put it on tech lab and makes the upgrade takes 2 minute to finish. The upgrade will also be dirt cheap, something in the ball park of 25/25 so the main thing the upgrade is there is so that it will stop marauder from doing super lame cheese.


Isn't going to add much imo.
Wut
Yamoth
Profile Joined February 2009
United States315 Posts
April 04 2010 23:39 GMT
#272
that the point, this doesn't change the dynamic of late mid or late game marauder usage at all. All this really do is make zealot capable of stopping marauder till stalker come out and give toss a fighting chance against 9 and 10 gate marauder.
xnub
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada610 Posts
April 05 2010 00:00 GMT
#273
Stalker suck VS marauder.

marauder are the counter to stalkers ...

This is why you make the zealot immune to slow and not make it upgrade

Counter list by blizzard to Marauders Zealots, rines and zerglings
Marauder strong vs thor stalker roachs

only problem with this is the micro make the zerglings and zealots weak VS them with slow
Loving the beta !! Weeeeeeee
RoosterSamurai
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Japan2108 Posts
April 05 2010 00:03 GMT
#274
On April 02 2010 08:46 Bibdy wrote:
Its all the rage in Platinum at the moment. Its hilariously strong considering they're just spamming a single unit. They'll get around to fixing it eventually.

Without a three-way combination of a wall of Zealots to take the hits, Sentries to Force Field and Immortals to gun them down, you're pretty much screwed.

Orb is always raging over marauders lol
xnub
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada610 Posts
April 05 2010 00:08 GMT
#275
On April 05 2010 09:03 RoosterSamurai wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2010 08:46 Bibdy wrote:
Its all the rage in Platinum at the moment. Its hilariously strong considering they're just spamming a single unit. They'll get around to fixing it eventually.

Without a three-way combination of a wall of Zealots to take the hits, Sentries to Force Field and Immortals to gun them down, you're pretty much screwed.

Orb is always raging over marauders lol



And everyone rages over the forcefields he does lol its the circle of life ! lol

Loving the beta !! Weeeeeeee
Slick348
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada26 Posts
April 05 2010 13:24 GMT
#276
On April 05 2010 02:04 SoFFacet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2010 22:14 Slick348 wrote:And which Terran ground unit sucks against toss? Stop just saying they suck and give us explanations


All of them. All bio raped by Collosi and Storm. All metal raped by Immortal (with help from Storm and Stalker). All non-BC air raped by Stalker. BCs (if you live that long) raped by Void Rays.

The most stupid game I've played this beta, I was 2 base vs 2 base vs Toss on Steppes. He A-moved my natural with an equal food army and won easily even though I had several preseiged tanks, a bunker in front, and EMPed most of his army.


Wrong lol, I find marines are the best starting off unit
1. Because it can attack both ground and air at a cost of 50 minerals each
2. In a group it can take down buildings, carriers, void rays, phoenix, zealots and archons if microd properly

Terran has such good units that your stupid for saying they all get raped. Colossus go down pretty vast by vikings(far range), banshees are good against fighting stalkers. Ghost has such good abilities, if they don't wanna nerf him then don't, but they need to change EMP(splash). Nukes(splash) are really good since you win the resource battle, you make him lose more resources than you lost by making the nuke. Raven's good, deploys a sentry bot and something else that does splash damage. Tanks(splash) are especially good. I could go on and on, but don't feel like repeating myself to 50 different ppl
Hate stupid ppl
Rakilonn
Profile Joined April 2010
France4 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 14:20:17
April 05 2010 14:17 GMT
#277
I don't know if it has been already posted but why not build a large squad of zealots with a couple of sentries in a first time, and quickly tech to the colossus ?

At the first battle, use the barrier ability behind the marauders in order to cut their options to kite.
This first battle is just made to force the terran player to play more defensively.

Then, tech quickly to colossus and keep the squad of zealot enough large.
Yes, it's a 3-unit strategy but I guess if you have a large squad of zealot and one or a couple of colossus, the marauders squad will be obliterated.

Is it better than the zealot-sentry-immortal strategy ?

For sure you must micro the colossus and keep the pressure with the zealots squad in order to keep the colossus alive.

cHaNg-sTa
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1058 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 15:34:11
April 05 2010 15:32 GMT
#278
I just don't understand how Blizzard thought it would be a great idea to implement the Marauder, Roach, and Immortal knowing that these 3 units do so well against so many units and also specialize as hard counter units. It comes to the point that there's no reason to NOT get these units.

The passive slow effect REALLY needs to be adjusted. Some of you may say it's not a big deal, but when you really think about it, it completely goes against the nature of SC1's e-sportness. SC1 had several counter features. Lurkers were great against zealots and marines. Goons are great against vultures. Archons are great against mutalisks. But what have we seen from the pro-scene? Despite these counters, pro players can still utilize these "countered" units in a fashion that they can still compete back.

How is this possible? The "countered" units can micro to compensate for the counter. You can split marines or run a couple of zealots pass the lurkers to even the fight. You can place mines and trap goons to even the fight. You can stack mutalisks and attempt to out-range/hit and run the archons. These excellent displays of micro are key to both increasing the in-depth gameplay and become much more appealing to the audience as an e-sport. But establishing a unit that out-ranges AND slows your units, you'll never have a single unit that can combat this army alone. Suddenly, micro is taken out of the equation. This is just against the philosophy behind SC1 imo.
Jaedong <3 HOOK'EM HORNS!
BigDatez
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada434 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-04-05 16:15:01
April 05 2010 15:47 GMT
#279
A healthy mix of gateway units + immortal will destroy a marauder force VERY cost efficiently. An immortal can kill a marauder in 3 hits, whereas it has hardened shield. If marauders target fire the immortal, it's under heavy fire from all units. If marauders ignore the immortal, it's under heavy fire from the immortal.

I'm not saying 1 immortal will destroy an entire force of marauders. I'm saying, a 3000 resources' worth of mixed protoss army has devastatingly destroyed a 3000 resources' worth of marauder heavy army in platinum games.


I'm quite sure the issue here is a marauder rush, not a midgame marauder mass, then attack.
I mean, rushing 1-gate to cyber core to robo takes too long to defend well against a rush, and any terran scouting this will be able to initiate an attack before immortals can even start to pop out.

In Tone of ZvT, some Well-placed banelings can demolish an early M&M attack since the buff to 20/15.

Zealots and Zerglings countered Ultras in SC1 for a fraction of the cost.

I may not be in the beta, but I think Terran and Zerg need a little more army diversification. This doesn't mean they necessarily have to nerf Mauraders or Roaches.


too bad roaches alone cant stand up to any type of marauder, or immortal army and are cheese for ZvZ vanilla fights in the North american servers ATM.
Video games > sex (Proven fact)
NarutO
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
Germany18839 Posts
April 05 2010 16:47 GMT
#280
If Protoss goes for 2 gate (zealot) you are fucked =] try to micro 2 marauders vs 4 zealots :D
CommentatorPolt | MMA | Jjakji | BoxeR | NaDa | MVP | MKP ... truly inspiring.
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