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I guess protoss will have to stop being greedy then and do 11 gate instead of 13 or 14. Chrono boosted units counter this along with some probes. Don't know if you noticed but probes actually rape marauders unless there are more than 6 of them.
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Don't forget the part where unstimmed Marauders do less damage to unarmored units then Marines or Zerglings.
If they lose the slow, they should probably do more base damage (with less against armor, proportionately). The slowing effect is their main defense against small units like Zerglings and Zealots currently. Put a zealot next to a marauder and have them fight, and watch how demolished the marauder gets. Even give the marauder 2 free shots to simulate the time it takes a zealot to close the distance.
"But you should have Marines to answer Zerglings and Zealots!" I agree, but they explode horribly against their counters (banelings, roaches, colossus, units with sentry shield). That makes them very tough to use compared to their counters.
Marauders are probably a little too strong at the moment because they're so prevalent in play, but I'm not sure what Terran's options include without them at the moment - tanks to deal with armored threats? Thors?
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On April 03 2010 07:22 RPGabe wrote:
Don't forget the part where unstimmed Marauders do less damage to unarmored units then Marines or Zerglings.
Your point being? This does not in anyway make sense why they also should have slow.
As you should get a varied army, and now you might as well just spam the same unit as the attack of marauder gets bonus to armored, but also has a slowing effect, so good against light units like lings/zealots and good vs roaches/stalkers? I wish roaches were that good. I'd happily trade roaches for marauders.
And about bonus vs armored, zerg doesnt even have one! Well unless you count static defense like spine crawler or an airtoair corruptor unit. That said, pretty much all zerg units dont have bonus dmg.
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I think the main concern that has been expressed multiple times is that the marauder is too effective when microed, especially with stim. Playing platinum everyone micros their marauders well because the shift + click micro is actually /fun/.The problem is, forces me alot to say "f it, he has too many marauders with stim, I have to huddle in my base/expansion for another two minutes until I have two colossi and hopefully z charge." Just sucks that the solid counter for protoss is preemptively retreating from marauder stim armies or else any good marauder micro will savage you. I guess templar is an alright alternative to colossi, but recently i've taken up the colossus because i think they are more effective against the popular bulky armies of marauders (a new trend perhaps).
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I thought terran infantry was supposed to be low in HP but cheap, and effective in masses. One Infantry unit should not be making a protoss player pull 4-5 probes to defend against it (reaper being an exception because its a harass unit). Especially a unit that's so versatile and has no weakness to compensate.
The key to expanding strategic variety within a race is having units that compliment each others weaknesses. The marauder is too well rounded on top of having a slow down ability to add extreme versatility. Marauder needs to see a drop in hp, something to around 100 HP if not less. Somewhere that leaves a marauder on the verge of death after a storm or two.
I think a tank/mech buff would need to follow in order to balance the overall terran army strength. Maybe +1 armor to tank and thor. If not that, then maybe a tank hp increase would be nice too.
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We should say MaradeurvP instead of TvP :D
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On April 03 2010 05:32 hellitsaboutme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 05:11 Slick348 wrote:On April 02 2010 13:59 adelarge wrote:On April 02 2010 13:33 Slick348 wrote:On April 02 2010 11:29 adelarge wrote:On April 02 2010 10:22 Slick348 wrote:On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote:
It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them. I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol. Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz". You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff". Seriously what the fuck? I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something. Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk. If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!" And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays? You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously. First off I'm not talking about MASS Mauraders. My main complaint was that they really don't need the ability to slow down units, it just makes everything so much easier for terran saying that they already have real good units already like the tank(splash), hellions(splash), marines(stim), repears(40dmg-buildings), ghost(EMP to counter toss), etc. Now what i'm complaining about now is that the Mauraders could counter all first tier units and are very effective against some higher tier units like the collusus and archons, while having all these other good units tanks,hellions, etc. Once again I'm not talking about mass Mauraders, but having them do good against so much other units is pretty ridiculous. Although all i want them to change on the Mauraders is the slowing down unit ability. EMP now is even more ridiculous. Why does it do both taking off energy and shield? I don't care about them not taking off all shield, the tanks splash finishes that for you or the MMM mix just makes mince meat out of them for you later on. Plus with Protoss units costing so much resources just to lose it easily because one of the problems like EMP must really suck for protoss players. Now for people who are saying that I don't have a beta key and have no say in it, you could learn much more by watching matches than being in it. I've been watching so many videos on many games saying "wow, i guarantee to you that person is cheap and needs something done to him/her" in a fighting game, i was right. Called out imbalance in shooting games like weapons, i was right. Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed. So don't hate me because i don't have a beta key, try to reason and try to look at and see what i'm saying. Watch some videos try to disagree or agree with me, don't just hate or write stupid comments. Once again i'm not a toss user although i do be them at times. To have very expensive units just to be countered so easily (colussus, mothership,etc.) by low tiered units that cost less resources must be a pain. I guarantee you that the phoenix cost more resources than most air units and suck the most... That's the stuff I am talking about. Maradeurs are too cost effective. Being so low level in tech depth and cheap they require expensive and high tech units to counter them. Why is protoss supposed to rush to get Immortals to counter Maradeurs? Why it's cannot be fought by zeal/stalker/sentry army, which is already more expensive but still suck against maradeur? I really don't get it, so much power is given to Maradeurs, couldn't they give it to tanks? And I also don't understand terrans who say Immortals own Maraduers: 1st: One immortal equivalent to 4 maradeurs in terms of cost 2nd: after one EMP immortals are pretty much useless, coz they don't get armor bonuses without shield. who will win 12 marad/1 ghost or 3Immortal/1Sentry? Answer is obvious.
Nobody said anything about adding in ghosts.
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On April 02 2010 08:53 Slick348 wrote:
There's honestly no reason for Mauraders to have the ability to slow down enemy units when there
1. Ranged units
2. Powerful units
3. Stimmed units (and can be healed by Medics)
4. Overpowered units
They honestly need to take that ability off, they gave it to them for no reason at all. Roaches atleast have to attack supper close but mauraders destroy roaches since their armored plus they slow down enemy units, it's ridiculous.
Mauraders counter
Zealots(even if they have charge)
Stalkers
Archons
Colossus
Not too sure about Sentries but people always mix up Mauraders with Marines so destroys them either way
HighTemps move slow enough already, one shot from Maurader and their already dead even if you have units to try to back up your high temps. High Temps is practically a waste to build since they're useless with EMP(overpowered cast) hitting them.
Protoss needs something that can do splash damage to take out large armies. All they have is the colossus which can easily be countered because there's so many ways since they can be attacked by air and ground units. Where's the reaver? Archon's splash damage?(which I'd rather have splash damage than a bonus increase). They nerfed Protoss so much it's ridiculous. I want somebody to show me a PVT match where Protoss wins because every time i see a PVT my bets are always on Terran. Remember PROS
P.S. Be free to disagree with me because i have many more things to say about terran being overpowered. And please back your statements up
rauders do not counter Colos unless you are stupid and don't get the range upgrade
Sentries > rauders Shield and Barriers is fucking crazy good if you micro it well
Archons are the = to the ghost used for fighting when its eng is gone and reall is meant to be meh
The one thing i do think is OP about rauders is that they can slow zealots and lings this needs to be changes prob BUT !! when they go speedlings or charge Zealots they should lose the Immune to slow for those upgrades
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I agree that M&Ms are nasty against Toss, but immortals do a good amount of damage mixed w/ everything else. People tend to lose because they Mass tier 1 and lose hard to the best T1.5 unit the Maurderer.
Check out a PTvPP. The M&Ms molest the zealots w/ some simple micro.
http://www.sendspace.com/file/1wyits
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On April 03 2010 10:21 refraxion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 05:32 hellitsaboutme wrote:On April 03 2010 05:11 Slick348 wrote:On April 02 2010 13:59 adelarge wrote:On April 02 2010 13:33 Slick348 wrote:On April 02 2010 11:29 adelarge wrote:On April 02 2010 10:22 Slick348 wrote:On April 02 2010 10:13 ploy wrote:
It's surprising to me how many people are willing to jump on the OP bandwagon even though, unless I'm mistaken, the last PlayXP tournament had many terran losing to protoss players (and no terran players in the final 4 I believe?)
There must be a way to hold them off other than complaining about them. I don't have a beta key, although I've had experience in SC1 and a lot of balancing experience in many other games. But from what i've seen, Terran has been winning all TVP and I'm talking about pro matches, not just your casual SC2 players. The reason for terran probably losing to protoss players is probably because there's way more protoss players than terran and well the terran either slipped up very bad/trying something new or there were no good Terran players at the time lol. Could you possibly be even more arrogant? You have zero experience with actually playing SC2, yet you easily discredit recent results from PlayXP (where participate very good players) basically just by "The terrans there were bad lolz". You ask other people for proofs of their claims, yet your only arguments are "I have seen some stuff". Seriously what the fuck? I won't even comment about marauders (im)balance, because I know there are many more competent people than me, but I have to say something. Wow lol, do you actually think that people can't see that their imbalanced by watching multiple videos? You'll mostly know more about the game from watching videos than playing the game. I catch on games fast trust me, this goes with any kind of game. This is why i say i have a lot of experience in balance and i'm usually right. That's why i want people to send me games where protoss win so i could be proved wrong. And i talk about this a lot because when a lot of people talk they look into changing things. So don't start "seriously what the F***" before seeing someones point of view. Now could someone send me a link where PROTOSS WINS You are still missing the point. Random guy without beta with couple of post coming into SC2 strategy forum claiming marauders are imbalaced and asking other people to prove him wrong...it doesn't work that way. It should be *you* who support your statements with hard fact first and then we can talk. If some platinum protoss switches to terran, beat the hell out of other platinum protosses with the imbalanced marauder spam (because it's so easy, right?), come here and post the replays, I will be among the first who would say "Oh crap, Blizzard needs to look at it asap!" And yes, there may be some people who could find imbalanced stuff just by analyzing videos. But for every one of them there is like 999 whiners who believe they are also the chosen ones but in reality know nothing. You've never said anything which would send you in the first group. Why should people even waste their time sending you replays? You have to learn that you must usually prove your worth before people start to take you seriously. First off I'm not talking about MASS Mauraders. My main complaint was that they really don't need the ability to slow down units, it just makes everything so much easier for terran saying that they already have real good units already like the tank(splash), hellions(splash), marines(stim), repears(40dmg-buildings), ghost(EMP to counter toss), etc. Now what i'm complaining about now is that the Mauraders could counter all first tier units and are very effective against some higher tier units like the collusus and archons, while having all these other good units tanks,hellions, etc. Once again I'm not talking about mass Mauraders, but having them do good against so much other units is pretty ridiculous. Although all i want them to change on the Mauraders is the slowing down unit ability. EMP now is even more ridiculous. Why does it do both taking off energy and shield? I don't care about them not taking off all shield, the tanks splash finishes that for you or the MMM mix just makes mince meat out of them for you later on. Plus with Protoss units costing so much resources just to lose it easily because one of the problems like EMP must really suck for protoss players. Now for people who are saying that I don't have a beta key and have no say in it, you could learn much more by watching matches than being in it. I've been watching so many videos on many games saying "wow, i guarantee to you that person is cheap and needs something done to him/her" in a fighting game, i was right. Called out imbalance in shooting games like weapons, i was right. Same goes for strategy, RPGs' and many other games. Said the hydralisk were over powered just by watching them in SC1, what happens in SC2? They get nerfed. So don't hate me because i don't have a beta key, try to reason and try to look at and see what i'm saying. Watch some videos try to disagree or agree with me, don't just hate or write stupid comments. Once again i'm not a toss user although i do be them at times. To have very expensive units just to be countered so easily (colussus, mothership,etc.) by low tiered units that cost less resources must be a pain. I guarantee you that the phoenix cost more resources than most air units and suck the most... That's the stuff I am talking about. Maradeurs are too cost effective. Being so low level in tech depth and cheap they require expensive and high tech units to counter them. Why is protoss supposed to rush to get Immortals to counter Maradeurs? Why it's cannot be fought by zeal/stalker/sentry army, which is already more expensive but still suck against maradeur? I really don't get it, so much power is given to Maradeurs, couldn't they give it to tanks? And I also don't understand terrans who say Immortals own Maraduers: 1st: One immortal equivalent to 4 maradeurs in terms of cost 2nd: after one EMP immortals are pretty much useless, coz they don't get armor bonuses without shield. who will win 12 marad/1 ghost or 3Immortal/1Sentry? Answer is obvious. Nobody said anything about adding in ghosts.
This is example of cost to cost comparison and I am not refering to anyone.
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The problem is that as toss you dont know what terran will do. Lately I die to the 1-2 fast reapers, so i gotta get some stalkers fasts, which leave me wide open for any marauder follow up, and if he decide to fast expend, well i delayed immortals to deal with the early expension.
Also you need the fast observers anyway to see if he is going fast expend, banshee rush or drop, because if you are not ready for any of these options you just die. This specific strat the terran can do is just another cheese he can do to make sure the games dont last long.
The way it is right now, as toss you either just die in the early games, or somehow survive to maybe have a chance to win later when you actually can make a decent unit mixe. Its frustrating, because I feel the protoss have no way to put the early pressure on terran witout taking huge risk.
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if they made the slow a research for 200/100 at the tech lab, the problem would be solved b/c late game the balance isnt messed up and early game the rush isnt an insta- win
just a thought
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See but that would mess up the early game we need slow it should just not work on the melee tier 1 units think it would fix it all
and 200/100 ya thats wayyyyyyyyyy to much even if they did that and the shouldn't. Thats like uber cost
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Game 4 is THE perfect example of my point about Stim.
LucifroNNN fast expands while just building marauders.
HasuObs goes straight to building stalkers out of his two gateways and then attacks the expansion. Even though Luci expanded early and should therefore have a slightly smaller army, since Marauders can't shoot air and Stalkers can, Marauders are naturally a good counter to early stalkers, so LucifroNNN should be able to make it a pretty even fight to protect his expansion, but should lose most of his marauders in the process.
But that's not what happens at all.
Instead, he holds off just long enough for Stim to finish researching and then BOOM.
Stim'd Marauders steamroll over HasuObs's units and the game is over.
Personally, I think concussive shells are fine.
To me, the problem almost always becomes apparent when Stim finishes researching.
I'd like to see what would have happened in any of those games that LucifroNNN and HasuObs played if Luci wouldn't have researched stimpacks.
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they are stalkers ..... Marauders are the couter to stalkers ..... he even upgrade the Marauders. So why shouldn't they own what they counter ? not to mention he never really stops to fight he just keeps running and bleeding units off cause he nows he fucked up and he is countered
i love the blink in game 2 i think it is don't see toss use blink much
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The big joke is that stim takes off what, 20 hp for twice the firepower? Yeah that was great in SC1 when 10 hp was 25% of the marines health on an already low hp unit, that was balanced. But when 20 hp is like 16% of the unit's health, which is still then beefy at over 100 health, AND gets double the firepower on already high damage? It's mind boggingly stupid.
Oh yeah, but protoss get blink. Good times.
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As a platinum protoss player I can definately say my hardest matches vs terran always involve early Marauders. Heck even at the 8-10min mark once they get Stim it's retarded.
Lets look at some toss units:
Zealot = loses to air, loses to AoE, loses to roaches, loses to Reapers
Stalker = weak vs Zerglings, marauders, kinda weak vs light armor (less now though)
Sentry = low HP support units, loses to everything alone but is great with other units.
Each of them are weak against some early game units.
Terran
Marines = loses to AoE, loses to Zealots, loses to roaches.
Mauraders = loses to air, loses to lings, doesn't lose to anything else.
Reapers = loses to anything not-light.
Seems each race should have a T1 unit that loses to a mass of another t1 unit. Much like Stalkers (and t2 Immortals) lose to lings, Zealots to Roaches and Sentry to everything (who makes only sentrys anyways).
Terran due to some BS reasons have a unit that is not weak to any of Protoss's T1 units and does cost for cost decently well against immortals.
Don't get me wrong I know Protoss cannot just mass 1 unit, and in fact that is why I enjoy toss soo much. It's just very stupid balance wise to have a well balance 3 unit army of Zealot, Sentry, Immortal lose to Mass Mauraders if toss doesn't spend 350 min and 300 gas on Speed. Ghost of course further complicate the situation, but that's another story.
Easy solutions:
Research Slow - If toss's Zealots have to research speed terran should research slow.
Or increase zealot movement speed so they cannot be kited to death. It's retarded for Protoss to spend 150/100 for a building only to then spend 200/200 to make their T1 units able to stand against other T1 units and even then with good micro the Mauraders still win. Speedlings upgrade cost 100/100 and are upgraded for their Pool.
I also think Stim on Mauraders is a problem mid/late game.
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It's incredibly hard to defend against those quick marauders; not only that but they limit the protoss's tech as he has to spend money on heavy gas units at the beginning, meaning a later robotics, which increases the timing window in which the terran can exploit his advantage with the marauders. The new ramp mechanics don't help toss either.
And about massing marauders off of 2 bases - the problem here is stim. The terran can lose his army, but because of stim he is able to kill a large portion of the protoss army, and unlike sc1, toss has a harder time rebuilding his forces. I think stim should either cost more hp for the marauders, or their slowing attack should be disabled when stimmed ( that way they can't kite as well )
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all the 10 rax builds are very weak against proxy 2 gates , cutting of scv production + fast marauder = not enough minerals for bunkers = lose
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EPT
