EPTzerg larvae production analysis - Page 3
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Kletus
Canada580 Posts
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scAre
Estonia28 Posts
On April 02 2010 09:39 Kletus wrote: If the map has long travel time, I like to go 15pool, queen, then hatch. A Section from just updated title post: Why 13pool and not 14,15,16? Because it will delay spawning pool and with that the queen. And will result in lesser larvae production. Still you can argue that those 1-3 drone delayed from mining will compensate faster hatch. This can be easily calculated, in fact you can do it yourself playing with this toy that I made for you. So enjoy . | ||
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scAre
Estonia28 Posts
2hatch +2queen will give production capacity 0,333(1/10 + 1/10 +1/15 +1/15) larvae per second. This mean 0,333 larva/s * 60s = 20 larva per minute. Cheapest units cost 50 minerals per larva. You must have mineral mining rate at least 50 * 20 =1000 minerals per minute, at the point where second queen kicks in. 1000 minerals per minute is about 24 drones mining blue minerals. (for example 16 drones on main and 8 drones in expansion) But if you are building more expensive units or/and tech at the same time, this means you must have even better economy to support the production. Or else it will result in idle larvae. The Rule is: Dont make 2nd queen if you cant get at least 24 drones mining minerals in 90 seconds. Why 90 seconds? Because queen will morph in 50 seconds and 4larvae will generate 40. 50+40=90 Thats when the queen kicks in. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:16 scAre wrote: Although builds are equal in terms of production rates 13hatch will give more options early on and is alot safer and because of that it is more superior in my eyes. Only thing where 14hatch has advantage over 13pool is earlier gas.(assuming that 13 pool gets gas after hatch) and also maybe some sort of tactical value of hatch placement. You mean Pool ? | ||
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scAre
Estonia28 Posts
On April 02 2010 21:57 RaiZ wrote: You mean Pool ? Oops. Thanks! | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
A better queen first build imo is: overlord -> pool -> hatchery -> extractor -> queen -> overlord. Making hatchery, pool & extractor makes up enough population for the queen. Your might have to wait 1 egg for the 2nd overlord but that's no problem with zerg's. The delayed overlord will result in a faster hatchery and extractor which far outweighs the fact you will use a egg later. Larvae only get wasted if you let them go up to 3 for too long. In that aspect the hatchery first build also has a slight advantage, the hatchery finishes fast enough so that you can delay the 2nd overlord even more as the hatchery provides 2 supply. Both builds are roughly equal in strength though, queen first is a bit better for faster teching if you choose too and hatch first has a potentially faster 2nd queen. Queen first also has the slight possibility to change into 1 base play a bit later in case you scout some weird proxy build or whatever. If you really want to be detailed you should take everything into your builds, when to scout etc etc. As of now the builds are not detailed enough to make a good distinction which is generally more useful as the difference really lies in those details. | ||
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scAre
Estonia28 Posts
Exact build order with food count will be also nice. For now i see you are delaying queen in favor of a faster hatch. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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micropede
United States47 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:25 QuothTheRaven wrote: You can also consider that with a faster 2nd hatch you can get a faster 2nd queen as well. This is what I'm talking about | ||
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scAre
Estonia28 Posts
Theoretically yes you can make 2 queens at the same time from both hatcheries. The point here is that you wont have the necessary economy to support that kind of larvae production. Like ei posted earlier you need AT LEAST 24 drones mining minerals just to produce the cheapest units: drones and zerglings and this without tech. You just cant get the economy up fast enough, because of that its not practical to have so early 2nd queen. | ||
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Stropheum
United States1124 Posts
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Tiazi
Netherlands761 Posts
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Barring anything special like early gas or whatever the builds are actually very similar but just differ in build order of the pool and hatchery. The method of supplies to determine the timings of the buildings can be a bit confusing a bit with zerg as you will go down and up alot on supply, it would look like this: 10 overlord 14 pool 17 hatchery 16 extractor 15 queen 17 overlord 17 zergling It's a bit confusing though like this so i'd rather order it like this overlord -> 14 pool -> 3 more drones (still testing a bit for optimal number here) -> hatchery -> extractor -> queen -> overlord + zerglings. The 2nd overlord isn't neccesary fast as the extractor and hatchery make up 2 population for the queen, if you get pop locked for a second while your queen is already buidling it doesn't matter that much. It's the same thing as being pop locked at 10 supply, you won't waste larvae as you aren't at 3 yet anyway. Hatchery first is the same exact build but pool and hatchery reversed. Hatchery is slightly more expensive then the pool so it will be a bit later. The 2nd building is at virtually the same time in both builds though as it doesnt matter in gathering 200 + 300 or 300 + 200. So a queen-first-build will have the hatchery at the same time a hatchery-first-build has the pool. The pool in a queen-first-build is faster then hatchery of a hatchery-first-build though. Queen gives a bigger larvae boost then a hatchery (faster production) so the queen first is better in terms of larvae. That effect is only bigger because the pool is cheaper then the hatchery as the pool will come down earlier as the hatchery but the total timing (pool + hatchery) is the same. So queen first is economically better, what other things can come into effect then? Queen first allows faster teching if you WANT to tech right after the queen finishes, hachery first could provide even faster teching if you WANT to tech at your 2nd hatchery though. Both issue's dont come up often as you usually don't want to tech that quick so this difference is irrelevant most of the time. Queen first allows faster zerglings as the pool finishes earlier, you can't pump out alot of them though as you are temporarily locked by waiting for your 2nd overlord. If you just want 2 quick zerglings for (anti) scouting queen first is quite a bit faster. Queen first also provives the oppurtunity of a slightly later tech switch, this can be important as some cheese strats are often scouted in the time between the pool and the hatchery. Queen first is thus more adaptable and thus also needs later scouting. All in all I can't see a situation ever when hatch first is better. THe only real benefit of hatch first is a faster 2nd queen but this is irrelevant in any game with some aggression as you cant support the 2nd queen that quickly anyway. In all other scenario;s Queen first is better in all aspects (economy, adaptability, versatility, tech speed) | ||
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