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Poll: Which zerg's standard build gives more larvae?
(Vote): 13 pool with queen, hatch later
(Vote): 14 hatch 14 pool, queen later
02.04.2010
UPDATED: SCROLL DOWN FOR THE ANALYSIS
Im seeing that zerg players are divided into two:
Some zergs are using 13 pool queen first openings, the others are using 14 hatch.
The idea is that when u get an early queen it gives 4 larva in every 40 seconds (production rate: 1/10=0,1 larvae per second), compared to hatch that gives 1 larvae in every 15 seconds (production rate: 1/15=0,067 larvae per second) you can see that when also considering building times and orders, its quite a complex equasion.
So ill throw those builds in
queen expand:
13 pool
13-16 gas(or after queen)
15 queen
18 hatch
hatch expand:
14 hatch
14 pool
13 gas
queen after pool
Note that those build may vary when to take gas etc, but in the big picture they are similar to those what players are using.
So now we need an instant, when production rates of those both builds are the same.
And this is a moment when queen and hatchery are both finished on both builds.
(2 hatcheries and a queen will give production rate: 2 x 1/15 + 1/10 = 7/30 = 0,233)
Given this instant, which build is more efficient in terms of larvae production?
EDIT:
So here it is.
INTRODUCTION
When I originally thought of this issue it was tailored towards zvz, because in zvz considering recent trends (by that i mean masslings) production capacity is very important maybe even the key component.. So I read this thread here and compared that buildorder(without the upgrade) described there to a buildorder that I was using and found very good. Yes it was 13 pool speedlings. But as i analyzed the buildorders, the knowledge became more general, so that info can be used in other matchups as well.
ANALYSIS
These calculations are based on practical values(timings found on replays) and theoretical calculations. By that I mean calculated using exact given build times and not timings found on replays. To make things clear, I add an example:
From a replay we get a time value for start of a spawning pool lets say t(A), and need to know timing when the first 4 larvae will pop t(L). Then t(L) will be calculated so: t(L) = t(A) + 65 + 50 + 40 .
You will also notice that I assume that there are no delayes, other than waiting for mineral for pool and a hatch without sacrificing larvae.
This method is good because it will minimize the error limits when comparing those two buildorders.
These are the exact builds I used to get the timings:
13pool:
10 overlord
13 pool
16 overlord
16 queen
17 hatch
14hatch:
10 overlord
14 hatch
13 drone
14 pool
We only need timings for a pool and a hatch, the others can be calculated based on them.
Note that 13 pool doesnt contain gas, because it will delay the hatch considerably.
For 14 hatch the gas is taken after the hatch and the pool, so must be done for 13 pool also.
Why 13pool and not 14,15,16?
Because it will delay spawning pool and with that the queen. And will result in lesser larvae production.
Still you can argue that those 1-3 drone delayed from mining will compensate faster hatch.
This can be easily calculated, in fact you can do it yourself playing with this toy that I made for you.
So enjoy  .
Why 14hatch and not 13 or 15?
Because with 13hatch you will sacrifice a larva and in terms of optimizing its a huge loss(15 seconds). 15 and later hatch will delay increase of your production capacity again.
The main Formula
Larvae count = Production rate X Time interval
Assumption: Production rate is constant during selected time interval.
RESULTS
I made a toy to help with the calculations, you can play with it yourself here!
Yellow cells are only meant to be modified. This tool only compares different queen and hatch timings and calculates the larvae count based on that. It cannot be used for anything else.
Input data I used, based on my test replays:
Starting time for spawning pool (in seconds)
13pool: 110
14hatch: 155
Starting time for hatchery (in seconds)
13pool: 190
14hatch: 130
Note that these are estimated values, and may deviate in a small margin.
This chart shows larvae production rate characteristics.
As you can see there are small windows of time where the production rates deviate.
The areas under the lines are in fact larvae count.
The time when both production rates go even is @290 second mark.
The areas before that time line are the larvae count we are looking for.
Calculations indicate that the builds are practically DEAD EVEN in terms of larvae production:
25,83 larvae for 13pool
25,33 larvae for 14hatch
The difference is so small that it will certainly fit into error range.
CONCLUSION
As seen in the chart there are 2 bigger windows where the production rates deviate:
The first window will cause 13pool build to have earlier extra larvae (It will be about @265 second mark). In economic point of view its better to have drones earlier, but in the same time you will have already full saturation(2drones per patch) at your main. Luckily 2nd hatch will complete in about 10 seconds (265+17 compared to 290) when those 4 drones pop up.
The second window appears when 14hatch completes the queen and starts to catch on 13pool's larvae count, in practice this will not happen sooner than 270+40=310 second mark.
Although builds are equal in terms of production rates 13pool will give more options early on and is alot safer and because of that it is more superior in my eyes.
Only thing where 14hatch has advantage over 13pool is earlier gas.(assuming that 13 pool gets gas after hatch) and also maybe some sort of tactical value of hatch placement.
FINAL WORDS
That said I have a suggestion for optimizing the 13pool:
In that shape the buildorder has very late gas. If you need earlier gas the best time to take it
is around 16 supply just right after the overlord and before start of the hatch, ideally hatch will start at the same time when extractor finishes.
You only take 1 worker off the minerals(and not 4), so that the hatch delay is minimal.
It will be about @160 second mark: exactly at the same point when 14hatch takes gas!
So the ideal opening should look like this:
13 pool
16 overlord
16 gas
15 queen
17 zerglings
18 hatch
I havent tried this exact variation myself, but it looks good on paper.
Try it and tell me what you think!
03.04.2010
EDIT#2
I made another graph:
This shows produced larvae count.
Look at the time between 235 - 275 more closely.
14hatch will produce between this time slightly more larvae.
So if you make drones that means you can put them to work sooner than with 13pool.
That gives a slight economic edge (about 30-50 minerals).
Cheers!
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Considering that more larvae is the only benefit of going 14 hatch, and that many pro players do it, I'm pretty sure 14 hatch gives more larvaes (and it make sense, too).
That said, I'd be very interested in the calculations and results no matter what.
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I'd go with early queen because if you get rushed/proxied, the 2nd hatch goes down and you're left with no queen.
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You can also consider that with a faster 2nd hatch you can get a faster 2nd queen as well.
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Osaka27149 Posts
There are a lot of intangibles when it comes to actual gameplay (especially for defense and scout prevention) but in terms of straight larvae I guess the hatch first build is better?
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When a hatch pops, you get 1 larvae to start off with no? When a queen pops, it has enough energy to spew larvae. queens take less time to make, and cost less money. So i would say if you used the extra larvae toward drone production, you'd actually get a faster economy in the time between when the queen and hatch get started and when they both pop. The advantage to having two hatcheries is that you have more minerals/gas locations to mine, and therefore i higher saturation yield. Since saturation doesn't come into play significantly in the time between laying the second hatchery in either of these builds, i would have to say going queen first is not only safer, but more economically viable and leaves the zerg with more options, and gives more opportunity to hide tech, due to having a semi-ranged defense unit right off the bat. So yeah, fast queen ftw in my opinion
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People are forgetting that by going 14 hatch you get a double hatch/double queen economy MUCH faster. While there is indeed a timing window where you have more larvae as pool first (hence why its safer), the hatch build will not long after surpass the pool build assuming no very early aggression.
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On March 31 2010 09:42 Thamoo wrote:
People are forgetting that by going 14 hatch you get a double hatch/double queen economy MUCH faster. While there is indeed a timing window where you have more larvae as pool first (hence why its safer), the hatch build will not long after surpass the pool build assuming no very early aggression.
I like your approuch.
You are right about that timing window if you are talking about zvz, with those both builds.
But that window opens up the instant when 13 pool finishes queen and closes when 14 hatch finishes queen.
In fact double hatch/double queen have practically same timing on both builds.
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On March 31 2010 09:56 scAre wrote:
In fact double hatch/double queen have practically same timing on both builds.
In the scenario I'm playing in my head I find this hard to belive. I'm eager to see the calculations behind this =)
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On March 31 2010 09:42 Thamoo wrote:
People are forgetting that by going 14 hatch you get a double hatch/double queen economy MUCH faster. While there is indeed a timing window where you have more larvae as pool first (hence why its safer), the hatch build will not long after surpass the pool build assuming no very early aggression.
That window opens up the instant when 13 pool finishes queen and closes when 14 hatch finishes queen(Im comparing production rates). After that 14 hatch will surpass 13 pool production rate, until 13 pool second hatchery finshes and rates go even. So u see this is a tricky one.
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I've personally been favouring 9ovie, 13pool, 17ovie, 17extractor, 16 queen. The timing of those last three happens at almost the same moment - from there you have enough resources to throw down a second hatch or roach den or whichever path seems best - it's also roughly when you'll be scouting on Steppes of War [and other longer distance maps].
I've personally been favouring a greedy double expand build. It's a bit weak against an early timing attack but once your econ kicks in, you can macro extremely hard.
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What we need is a graph where Y is the total number of larvaes produced total and X is time. Any volounters? ^^
Klimp : 13 pool is pretty much 14 pool, I don't think the differance between the two is that noticable compared to 14 hatch or 14 pool.
Double expend seems way too vulnerable to me, as well as unneccessary as 2 hatch/2 queen is already hard to support ressource wise in the early game.
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Osaka27149 Posts
On March 31 2010 09:36 Stropheum wrote:
When a hatch pops, you get 1 larvae to start off with no?
No, you get three.
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More larvae directly equals better economy, right? Since you won't reach full saturation with 1 gas before your second hatch is up as 13 pool variation.
Also, is 15 pool worse economy wise than 13 pool? 2 drones faster vs about 1 less drone later. (Can the 2 drones make up 50 minerals though?)
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More larvaes only means better economy if you have the mineral/gaz required to make good uses of those larvaes. Idle larvaes aren't good economy.
15 pool is a better economy than 13 pool, else why on earth would anyone make a 15 pool? (And pros occasionally 15 pool).
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15 pool vs 13 pool is also tricky comparison
With 13 pool you can get a bit faster queen and that means more larvae, but in the same time those 2 drones will be delayed a bit from mining minerals.
We can say that 15 pool is more economical compared to 13 pool when you are not planning to make drones from those extra 4 larvae (make lings instead)
But may or may not be economical when you are planning make drones from those 4 extra larvae.
I personally think that in that case they are practically same economy-wise.
So the question is: why make pool later and risk more when you get the same result from earlier pool?
These are my thoughts.
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This should be very easy to test. Just get a partner and make a game. Player 1 does one build, Player 2 does the other. Only pump drones, and don't bother with gas (irrelevant for testing purposes). If each player focuses only on building drones and never supply caps themselves (make sure both players are decent at macroing), you can stop the reply every 15 seconds and get a supply count from each player. Write these values down and create a graph of time vs. supply for both players. Put them in excel and chart it over like 5 minutes. It should be pretty easy to tell exactly at what points each build excel.
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I think the big benefit of early hatch is the ground control and economy it provides once the expansion gets going. While pool first orders give more larva, FE gives you more optimum workers saturations.
Zerg are finding that early game they can FE without too much trouble, and the gain they get once workers start pumping more than makes up for the slightest larva they get early game.
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I think some people are assuming that 13pool queen forgoes a second hatch altogether. The fact is that this presents a larger scouting window on your opponent where you can either do a push to deny a fast expand, or drop a second hatch quickly, in which case i believe the timings are relatively the same to 14hatch, if not slightly quicker. The reason i think 13pool queen is faster is because you get more drones coming in while the second hatch is morphing, therefore you have a slightly later hatch, but you can theoretically instantly saturate the expo, while as the 14hatch will only have however many drones you maynard when it completes. Therefore, i think 13pool queen is better overall economy, bigger windows for choices, and the queen for defense.
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On March 31 2010 10:14 Thamoo wrote:
Klimp : 13 pool is pretty much 14 pool, I don't think the differance between the two is that noticable compared to 14 hatch or 14 pool.
Double expend seems way too vulnerable to me, as well as unneccessary as 2 hatch/2 queen is already hard to support ressource wise in the early game.
13 pool has some really nice timings with expanding on 18 and a heap of flexibility with what your opponent does. You also have enough resources to get a Queen AND a Roach AND a Extractor as soon as the Spawning Pool finishes.
With my double expand build, I've been expanding to my natural and a hidden [pref high yield]. People generally don't look for a hidden expansion super early in the game - I've had it pay off far more often than not.
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Well, if you do 13 hatch vs 13 pool.
13 pool: So it takes 65 seconds for pool to build, then 50 seconds for queen to build, then after inject, another 30 seconds for first 4 larvae to come out. Total 145 seconds.
13 hatch: It takes 100 seconds and then 3 larvae pop out, so you get 4 larvae after 115 seconds, and another larvae every 15 seconds. Then you build a queen if you can afford it and you're way ahead in larvae. Of course your pool went down right after the hatchery did, so it'll be delayed about 1 minute, or however long it takes you to get ~200+200 minerals from 13->12 drones? And then the queen comes out of your first hatch 65+50 seconds after that.
Seems viable. I remember trying to 13 hatch when I first started playing the game and got run over by zealots, but I've improved a lot, so maybe I'll try it again.
Edit: The previous assertion that a new hatch has 3 larvae is wrong, it only spawns one.
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Um, sorry, but I loaded up a replay just now and in slow mo the hatchery most definitely pop'd out with 1 larvae. That's how it worked in SC1 as well.
This can be boiled down to:
A: How many seconds faster is your queen? Divide by 10
B: How many seconds slower is your second hatchery? Divide by 15, Add 1.
C: How many seconds slower is your second queen? Divide by 10
If A > B+C Pool first builds are superior.
If economy can't support an early second queen then if A>B Pool first is superior, i.e vs rushes.
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Yeah I just ran a test too, 1 larvae. Still not bad but hardly the no brainer I hoped it would be.
Based on my previous post, that would mean you get 1 larvae at 100 seconds, 2 at 115, 3 at 130, 4 at 145, so you end up with equal larvae up to that point. The queen will pull ahead briefly but then again in the 13 hatch build, a queen is only about 2 injections behind in terms of time, so you'll only end up, if I'm not mistaken 2 larvae behind, but with a second hatchery and a very late pool. After the second queen pops you'll finally start to pull ahead. But you sacrificed a lot to get here.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 31 2010 10:18 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 09:36 Stropheum wrote:
When a hatch pops, you get 1 larvae to start off with no? No, you get three.
You only get 1 larvae when a hatch finishes. the only time you get 3 is at the start of the game
@OP you can figure out the amount of larvae by just doing simple math
pool @ 13 has 0:50 build time, queen has :50 build time, spawn larvae right after it pops would be :40 seconds later to bring +4 larvae instantly, but normal regen before that. so 2:20 after starting pool you get 4 larvae, then wait another 41 seconds(in-game seconds) for +4 again etc.
hatch @ 14 would be about :15 or :20 later than when pool starts, has 1:40 build time, spawns 1 larvae instantly and then generates 1 larvae every 15 seconds. So :20 or :25 after the pool build would be seeing its first +4 larvae pop, hatch first would have had +2 larvae from the hatch. other things to note is that hatch provides +2 food while queen takes up +2 food. the most important part realistically as a zerg player is not which has more larvae but all the other factors that a pool first build brings, vs a hatch build. pool builds give you more options and allow you to get to hive faster or roaches and speedlings or whatever you want faster. units faster, etc. and due to the good worker pathing in the game, more than 1 worker per patch, if you do it right, can be just as effective as the same amount of workers split among more patches (at natural)
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On March 31 2010 09:29 Manifesto7 wrote:
There are a lot of intangibles when it comes to actual gameplay (especially for defense and scout prevention)...
this is what people need to be thinking about. sc2 is not a single player game, or else you could get the 'perfect' build and win every time. there are other factors. and having a hatch up first puts the pressure back on your opponent. the longer that expo is up, the more pressure he feels. i really don't care which build gives more larvae(well, that's not true, it would be interesting), if you can manage an expo at 14 and survive, you're far better off regardless of what the numbers say.
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On March 31 2010 12:39 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 09:29 Manifesto7 wrote:
There are a lot of intangibles when it comes to actual gameplay (especially for defense and scout prevention)... this is what people need to be thinking about. sc2 is not a single player game, or else you could get the 'perfect' build and win every time. there are other factors. and having a hatch up first puts the pressure back on your opponent. the longer that expo is up, the more pressure he feels. i really don't care which build gives more larvae(well, that's not true, it would be interesting), if you can manage an expo at 14 and survive, you're far better off regardless of what the numbers say.
While this is obviously true, theres not reasons to be discussing it here. We're not trying to find the optimal opening here, we're trying to figure out whats the most economically advantageous one, and by how much of a margin.That way when you do think about what opening is the best for your build, you can take into consideration the economic variations with accuracy, while still including then the concerns of relative safety and information gathering.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
I'm gonna guess that they're almost exactly the same. 
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The only reason I'd hatch first is if I am deliberately trying to bait an opponent to attack, or if I am going to gamble on hiding the fast hatch at a high yield expo long enough to get an economic advantage.
If you're looking for the best combination of economy and defensibility and you don't want to gamble on a hidden expansion, I can see no reason not to pool, then queen, then expand.
Until you're saturated at your main, the expo doesn't really offer any benefit, because you won't have the resources to support it, unless you're going to linger for a long time on lings vs getting roaches. I'd rather expand at 18-20 food then risk expanding at 14-15 food for no tangible gain.
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Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not.
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On March 31 2010 14:58 Floophead_III wrote:
Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not.
What do you do with the very fast lair once you have it?
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I assume this is tailored more towards zvz? In that case, I'm leaning towards 10 or 13 pool for overall comfort. If you 14 hatched vs a 10 pool, I don't see how that would turn out to be a good day for mr. 14 hatch.
even 10 pool vs 13 pool is sticky for the 13 pooler.
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On March 31 2010 18:02 zomgzergrush wrote:
I assume this is tailored more towards zvz? In that case, I'm leaning towards 10 or 13 pool for overall comfort. If you 14 hatched vs a 10 pool, I don't see how that would turn out to be a good day for mr. 14 hatch.
even 10 pool vs 13 pool is sticky for the 13 pooler.
I don't know about that one. I used to 13 pool every time, but now I 14 Hatch unless I see an 8 pool. In my experiance, 10 pool Lings tend to arrive at my base as my first set of Lings is about to pop out, and though I'm outnumbered all it takes is some clever Drone and Queen (I tend to get an early Queen to help fight off the initial rush if they 10 pool) micro to buy time for my Lings to pop and I'm golden. But I certainly couldn't blame people for leaning towards a 13 pool, it's definately a bit safer; you can handle an 8 pool, atleast. If I 14 Hatch and the other guy 8 pools, or God forbid 6 pools me, it's likely GG.
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On March 31 2010 15:09 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 14:58 Floophead_III wrote:
Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not. What do you do with the very fast lair once you have it?
Be save against Banshee's, Voidrays and being able to get Roachspeed, Banelingspeed, Burrow, Ovispeed, Creepdrop...
Fast Lair is very nice to have. But i don't know if it outweights delaying your first Queen.
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On March 31 2010 18:09 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 18:02 zomgzergrush wrote:
I assume this is tailored more towards zvz? In that case, I'm leaning towards 10 or 13 pool for overall comfort. If you 14 hatched vs a 10 pool, I don't see how that would turn out to be a good day for mr. 14 hatch.
even 10 pool vs 13 pool is sticky for the 13 pooler. I don't know about that one. I used to 13 pool every time, but now I 14 Hatch unless I see an 8 pool. In my experiance, 10 pool Lings tend to arrive at my base as my first set of Lings is about to pop out, and though I'm outnumbered all it takes is some clever Drone and Queen (I tend to get an early Queen to help fight off the initial rush if they 10 pool) micro to buy time for my Lings to pop and I'm golden. But I certainly couldn't blame people for leaning towards a 13 pool, it's definately a bit safer; you can handle an 8 pool, atleast. If I 14 Hatch and the other guy 8 pools, or God forbid 6 pools me, it's likely GG.
in regards to 10 vs 13, though, I said 13 is put in a sticky situation, not that they can't defend it. There is no doubt 13 will defend it, but more likely he lose 2 drones and 50+ minerals worth of mining time.
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(click for larger image)
I recorded the times when the Queens and Hatcheries finish, however I had some lag so they might be a bit too high, but not much.
13Pool: Queen after 182 seconds, second Hatch after 260 seconds. I didn't build the Hatch at 18 though, more like 20 or 21. Not sure how realistic/useful it is to build the second Hatch so early.
14Hatch: Second Hatch after 185 seconds, Queen after 215 seconds.
Those times are indicated by the vertical lines.
I don't think the second queen matters because that should come much later and depends a lot on the game so far. If you go Lair you won't need so many larvae right away.
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Amazing graph Asta, tyvm ^^. May I ask you what program you used to make it?
Also, it would appear that as far as larvae production goes, hatch first is better except from a tiny window where the first 4 larvaes spawn. Thus the only reason to go 13 hatch would be to get defenses faster.
Now we need to compare this graph with charliemurphy's pool timings to see if 14 hatch can manage to fight off the early pool builds. I'll work right on that =)
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On April 01 2010 10:40 Thamoo wrote:
Amazing graph Asta, tyvm ^^. May I ask you what program you used to make it?
Also, it would appear that as far as larvae production goes, hatch first is better except from a tiny window where the first 4 larvaes spawn. Thus the only reason to go 13 hatch would be to get defenses faster.
Now we need to compare this graph with charliemurphy's pool timings to see if 14 hatch can manage to fight off the early pool builds. I'll work right on that =)
I did that in Matlab.
For the early pools...
I tried either 13 hatch or 14 hatch yesterday against what turned out to be a 7 pool. You'll have to fight the first 8 lings with drones which actually works with the do-everything-for-you unit ai. However you will probably be behind in drone count afterwards. With defensive play you can still make a game out of it but you will be behind. But that's almost the worst case.
Not sure how the gas/tech timings are.
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It's too bad there are no graphs automatically in SC2 like they were in games like age of empires.
The graph here is hand contstructed which is doubtful to be exactly correct, for example the drone production early on is made with just a lineair stepwise increment but this is already false. Zerg stop at 10 drones for a sec and then instantly get 3, there should already be a leap there.
This won't matter for the end result but it does make me wonder how correct the graph actually is.
The total area under a drone graph equates the amount of workerseconds which if you only get minerals roughly equate the amount of minerals mined (minerals mine at a rate of 1/sec before saturation kicks in). As the exact curve thus matters for how much minerals you mined a crudely constructed one won't suffice.
To tackle this issue it would just be easier to do 2 build orders, queen -> hatch and hatch -> queen and then stop the game at some point after they are completed. Just check the total minerals mined and the number of drones then and see which is better with regards to economy.
First you would have the to devise the ideal build orders for both of these 2 though, do you use a hatchery trick yes/no, what time do you make the pool etc etc.
From the looks of it though it turns out that both builds are quite equivalent when it comes to economy if we go by the graph with 1 drone more for the hatch first build. This is not a negligible difference but not huge either.
In the end it seems to come down to the other advantages of either build. Hatch first can be great if it means your hatch won't get blocked on the other hand you can apply less last minute changes like responding to a all-in rush. Hatch first would arguably need faster scouting then queen first which makes the economic difference even smaller.
Queen first allows faster teching, 1 base variants and faster zerglings while hardly taking a economic loss, in other words more variety for a slight economic loss. In the end that seems worth more to me but both are very close.
I think the faster 2nd queen can be dismissed as a advantage by the way as a 2nd queen that fast will only result in wasted eggs i think. If that's not the case, which seems unlikely, then that might change the differences a bit more.
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On March 31 2010 14:58 Floophead_III wrote:
Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not.
How does getting a fast natural get you the lair faster? If you gas right when you pool and put 3 drones on it asap, build a queen as soon as the pool finishes, you get 100 gas just as the queen finishes to go Lair. The queen doesn't slow it down at all. Or do you have some sort of early gas build to go with fast expand?
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Very nice graph indeed Asta!
Sry about being away so long, ill try to update the post bronto.
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If the map has long travel time, I like to go 15pool, queen, then hatch.
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On April 02 2010 09:39 Kletus wrote:
If the map has long travel time, I like to go 15pool, queen, then hatch.
A Section from just updated title post:
Why 13pool and not 14,15,16?
Because it will delay spawning pool and with that the queen. And will result in lesser larvae production.
Still you can argue that those 1-3 drone delayed from mining will compensate faster hatch.
This can be easily calculated, in fact you can do it yourself playing with this toy that I made for you.
So enjoy .
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If you are considering morphing a second queen, then know that:
2hatch +2queen will give production capacity 0,333(1/10 + 1/10 +1/15 +1/15) larvae per second.
This mean 0,333 larva/s * 60s = 20 larva per minute.
Cheapest units cost 50 minerals per larva.
You must have mineral mining rate at least 50 * 20 =1000 minerals per minute, at the point where second queen kicks in.
1000 minerals per minute is about 24 drones mining blue minerals.
(for example 16 drones on main and 8 drones in expansion)
But if you are building more expensive units or/and tech at the same time,
this means you must have even better economy to support the production.
Or else it will result in idle larvae.
The Rule is: Dont make 2nd queen if you cant get at least 24 drones mining minerals in 90 seconds.
Why 90 seconds?
Because queen will morph in 50 seconds and 4larvae will generate 40. 50+40=90
Thats when the queen kicks in.
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On March 31 2010 09:16 scAre wrote:
Although builds are equal in terms of production rates 13hatch will give more options early on and is alot safer and because of that it is more superior in my eyes.
Only thing where 14hatch has advantage over 13pool is earlier gas.(assuming that 13 pool gets gas after hatch) and also maybe some sort of tactical value of hatch placement.
You mean Pool ?
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On April 02 2010 21:57 RaiZ wrote:
You mean Pool ?
Oops. Thanks!
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Why do you make your 2nd overlord before hatchery in the queen first build? It's quite unneccesary as you make up population spots by building the hatchery and the extractor.
A better queen first build imo is:
overlord -> pool -> hatchery -> extractor -> queen -> overlord.
Making hatchery, pool & extractor makes up enough population for the queen. Your might have to wait 1 egg for the 2nd overlord but that's no problem with zerg's. The delayed overlord will result in a faster hatchery and extractor which far outweighs the fact you will use a egg later. Larvae only get wasted if you let them go up to 3 for too long.
In that aspect the hatchery first build also has a slight advantage, the hatchery finishes fast enough so that you can delay the 2nd overlord even more as the hatchery provides 2 supply. Both builds are roughly equal in strength though, queen first is a bit better for faster teching if you choose too and hatch first has a potentially faster 2nd queen. Queen first also has the slight possibility to change into 1 base play a bit later in case you scout some weird proxy build or whatever. If you really want to be detailed you should take everything into your builds, when to scout etc etc. As of now the builds are not detailed enough to make a good distinction which is generally more useful as the difference really lies in those details.
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Ok we can compare this build. Can you test this build and give me from the replay times when you start 2nd hatch and the queen?
Exact build order with food count will be also nice.
For now i see you are delaying queen in favor of a faster hatch.
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With pool first you can build ur 2nd queen directly from ur first hatchery and send it to the 2nd non finished hatch. But will it have enough minerals to not have a single larvae idling ? I only managed to get like 3 idle larvae for a few sec (like 3 sec ?) which isn't really bad considering it's a Pool first build...
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Here's the reps, we can probably make it better but they're here to give you an idea. (why wouldn't you do the test yourself ?)
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On March 31 2010 09:25 QuothTheRaven wrote:
You can also consider that with a faster 2nd hatch you can get a faster 2nd queen as well.
This is what I'm talking about
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On April 03 2010 01:53 micropede wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 09:25 QuothTheRaven wrote:
You can also consider that with a faster 2nd hatch you can get a faster 2nd queen as well. This is what I'm talking about
Theoretically yes you can make 2 queens at the same time from both hatcheries.
The point here is that you wont have the necessary economy to support that kind of larvae production.
Like ei posted earlier you need AT LEAST 24 drones mining minerals just to produce the cheapest units: drones and zerglings and this without tech.
You just cant get the economy up fast enough, because of that its not practical to have so early 2nd queen.
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Also. If P decides to go quick void ray, in the 14 hatch variation, even if you scout it, I don't think you'll be able to get hydras in time to defend, or even spores for that matter, so it seems like a fundamental flaw. Same thing might apply to a banshee rush.
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lovely post. Nice write-up and very good argumentation. Thanks for this!
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The amount of larvae when you get into the mid-late game is insane. If you go for a 14 hatch you get insane amounts very early.
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I've done some more testing and come to the conclusion that queen first is nearly superior on all accounts then a hatchery first build.
Barring anything special like early gas or whatever the builds are actually very similar but just differ in build order of the pool and hatchery.
The method of supplies to determine the timings of the buildings can be a bit confusing a bit with zerg as you will go down and up alot on supply, it would look like this:
10 overlord
14 pool
17 hatchery
16 extractor
15 queen
17 overlord
17 zergling
It's a bit confusing though like this so i'd rather order it like this
overlord -> 14 pool -> 3 more drones (still testing a bit for optimal number here) -> hatchery -> extractor -> queen -> overlord + zerglings.
The 2nd overlord isn't neccesary fast as the extractor and hatchery make up 2 population for the queen, if you get pop locked for a second while your queen is already buidling it doesn't matter that much. It's the same thing as being pop locked at 10 supply, you won't waste larvae as you aren't at 3 yet anyway.
Hatchery first is the same exact build but pool and hatchery reversed. Hatchery is slightly more expensive then the pool so it will be a bit later. The 2nd building is at virtually the same time in both builds though as it doesnt matter in gathering 200 + 300 or 300 + 200. So a queen-first-build will have the hatchery at the same time a hatchery-first-build has the pool. The pool in a queen-first-build is faster then hatchery of a hatchery-first-build though.
Queen gives a bigger larvae boost then a hatchery (faster production) so the queen first is better in terms of larvae. That effect is only bigger because the pool is cheaper then the hatchery as the pool will come down earlier as the hatchery but the total timing (pool + hatchery) is the same.
So queen first is economically better, what other things can come into effect then?
Queen first allows faster teching if you WANT to tech right after the queen finishes, hachery first could provide even faster teching if you WANT to tech at your 2nd hatchery though. Both issue's dont come up often as you usually don't want to tech that quick so this difference is irrelevant most of the time.
Queen first allows faster zerglings as the pool finishes earlier, you can't pump out alot of them though as you are temporarily locked by waiting for your 2nd overlord. If you just want 2 quick zerglings for (anti) scouting queen first is quite a bit faster.
Queen first also provives the oppurtunity of a slightly later tech switch, this can be important as some cheese strats are often scouted in the time between the pool and the hatchery. Queen first is thus more adaptable and thus also needs later scouting.
All in all I can't see a situation ever when hatch first is better. THe only real benefit of hatch first is a faster 2nd queen but this is irrelevant in any game with some aggression as you cant support the 2nd queen that quickly anyway. In all other scenario;s Queen first is better in all aspects (economy, adaptability, versatility, tech speed)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/7CKfj.png)
