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Well, if you do 13 hatch vs 13 pool.
13 pool: So it takes 65 seconds for pool to build, then 50 seconds for queen to build, then after inject, another 30 seconds for first 4 larvae to come out. Total 145 seconds.
13 hatch: It takes 100 seconds and then 3 larvae pop out, so you get 4 larvae after 115 seconds, and another larvae every 15 seconds. Then you build a queen if you can afford it and you're way ahead in larvae. Of course your pool went down right after the hatchery did, so it'll be delayed about 1 minute, or however long it takes you to get ~200+200 minerals from 13->12 drones? And then the queen comes out of your first hatch 65+50 seconds after that.
Seems viable. I remember trying to 13 hatch when I first started playing the game and got run over by zealots, but I've improved a lot, so maybe I'll try it again.
Edit: The previous assertion that a new hatch has 3 larvae is wrong, it only spawns one.
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Um, sorry, but I loaded up a replay just now and in slow mo the hatchery most definitely pop'd out with 1 larvae. That's how it worked in SC1 as well.
This can be boiled down to:
A: How many seconds faster is your queen? Divide by 10
B: How many seconds slower is your second hatchery? Divide by 15, Add 1.
C: How many seconds slower is your second queen? Divide by 10
If A > B+C Pool first builds are superior.
If economy can't support an early second queen then if A>B Pool first is superior, i.e vs rushes.
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Yeah I just ran a test too, 1 larvae. Still not bad but hardly the no brainer I hoped it would be.
Based on my previous post, that would mean you get 1 larvae at 100 seconds, 2 at 115, 3 at 130, 4 at 145, so you end up with equal larvae up to that point. The queen will pull ahead briefly but then again in the 13 hatch build, a queen is only about 2 injections behind in terms of time, so you'll only end up, if I'm not mistaken 2 larvae behind, but with a second hatchery and a very late pool. After the second queen pops you'll finally start to pull ahead. But you sacrificed a lot to get here.
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United States7166 Posts
On March 31 2010 10:18 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 09:36 Stropheum wrote:
When a hatch pops, you get 1 larvae to start off with no? No, you get three.
You only get 1 larvae when a hatch finishes. the only time you get 3 is at the start of the game
@OP you can figure out the amount of larvae by just doing simple math
pool @ 13 has 0:50 build time, queen has :50 build time, spawn larvae right after it pops would be :40 seconds later to bring +4 larvae instantly, but normal regen before that. so 2:20 after starting pool you get 4 larvae, then wait another 41 seconds(in-game seconds) for +4 again etc.
hatch @ 14 would be about :15 or :20 later than when pool starts, has 1:40 build time, spawns 1 larvae instantly and then generates 1 larvae every 15 seconds. So :20 or :25 after the pool build would be seeing its first +4 larvae pop, hatch first would have had +2 larvae from the hatch. other things to note is that hatch provides +2 food while queen takes up +2 food. the most important part realistically as a zerg player is not which has more larvae but all the other factors that a pool first build brings, vs a hatch build. pool builds give you more options and allow you to get to hive faster or roaches and speedlings or whatever you want faster. units faster, etc. and due to the good worker pathing in the game, more than 1 worker per patch, if you do it right, can be just as effective as the same amount of workers split among more patches (at natural)
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On March 31 2010 09:29 Manifesto7 wrote:
There are a lot of intangibles when it comes to actual gameplay (especially for defense and scout prevention)...
this is what people need to be thinking about. sc2 is not a single player game, or else you could get the 'perfect' build and win every time. there are other factors. and having a hatch up first puts the pressure back on your opponent. the longer that expo is up, the more pressure he feels. i really don't care which build gives more larvae(well, that's not true, it would be interesting), if you can manage an expo at 14 and survive, you're far better off regardless of what the numbers say.
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On March 31 2010 12:39 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 09:29 Manifesto7 wrote:
There are a lot of intangibles when it comes to actual gameplay (especially for defense and scout prevention)... this is what people need to be thinking about. sc2 is not a single player game, or else you could get the 'perfect' build and win every time. there are other factors. and having a hatch up first puts the pressure back on your opponent. the longer that expo is up, the more pressure he feels. i really don't care which build gives more larvae(well, that's not true, it would be interesting), if you can manage an expo at 14 and survive, you're far better off regardless of what the numbers say.
While this is obviously true, theres not reasons to be discussing it here. We're not trying to find the optimal opening here, we're trying to figure out whats the most economically advantageous one, and by how much of a margin.That way when you do think about what opening is the best for your build, you can take into consideration the economic variations with accuracy, while still including then the concerns of relative safety and information gathering.
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TossFloss
Canada606 Posts
I'm gonna guess that they're almost exactly the same. 
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The only reason I'd hatch first is if I am deliberately trying to bait an opponent to attack, or if I am going to gamble on hiding the fast hatch at a high yield expo long enough to get an economic advantage.
If you're looking for the best combination of economy and defensibility and you don't want to gamble on a hidden expansion, I can see no reason not to pool, then queen, then expand.
Until you're saturated at your main, the expo doesn't really offer any benefit, because you won't have the resources to support it, unless you're going to linger for a long time on lings vs getting roaches. I'd rather expand at 18-20 food then risk expanding at 14-15 food for no tangible gain.
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Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not.
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On March 31 2010 14:58 Floophead_III wrote:
Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not.
What do you do with the very fast lair once you have it?
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I assume this is tailored more towards zvz? In that case, I'm leaning towards 10 or 13 pool for overall comfort. If you 14 hatched vs a 10 pool, I don't see how that would turn out to be a good day for mr. 14 hatch.
even 10 pool vs 13 pool is sticky for the 13 pooler.
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On March 31 2010 18:02 zomgzergrush wrote:
I assume this is tailored more towards zvz? In that case, I'm leaning towards 10 or 13 pool for overall comfort. If you 14 hatched vs a 10 pool, I don't see how that would turn out to be a good day for mr. 14 hatch.
even 10 pool vs 13 pool is sticky for the 13 pooler.
I don't know about that one. I used to 13 pool every time, but now I 14 Hatch unless I see an 8 pool. In my experiance, 10 pool Lings tend to arrive at my base as my first set of Lings is about to pop out, and though I'm outnumbered all it takes is some clever Drone and Queen (I tend to get an early Queen to help fight off the initial rush if they 10 pool) micro to buy time for my Lings to pop and I'm golden. But I certainly couldn't blame people for leaning towards a 13 pool, it's definately a bit safer; you can handle an 8 pool, atleast. If I 14 Hatch and the other guy 8 pools, or God forbid 6 pools me, it's likely GG.
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On March 31 2010 15:09 Wintermute wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 14:58 Floophead_III wrote:
Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not. What do you do with the very fast lair once you have it?
Be save against Banshee's, Voidrays and being able to get Roachspeed, Banelingspeed, Burrow, Ovispeed, Creepdrop...
Fast Lair is very nice to have. But i don't know if it outweights delaying your first Queen.
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On March 31 2010 18:09 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2010 18:02 zomgzergrush wrote:
I assume this is tailored more towards zvz? In that case, I'm leaning towards 10 or 13 pool for overall comfort. If you 14 hatched vs a 10 pool, I don't see how that would turn out to be a good day for mr. 14 hatch.
even 10 pool vs 13 pool is sticky for the 13 pooler. I don't know about that one. I used to 13 pool every time, but now I 14 Hatch unless I see an 8 pool. In my experiance, 10 pool Lings tend to arrive at my base as my first set of Lings is about to pop out, and though I'm outnumbered all it takes is some clever Drone and Queen (I tend to get an early Queen to help fight off the initial rush if they 10 pool) micro to buy time for my Lings to pop and I'm golden. But I certainly couldn't blame people for leaning towards a 13 pool, it's definately a bit safer; you can handle an 8 pool, atleast. If I 14 Hatch and the other guy 8 pools, or God forbid 6 pools me, it's likely GG.
in regards to 10 vs 13, though, I said 13 is put in a sticky situation, not that they can't defend it. There is no doubt 13 will defend it, but more likely he lose 2 drones and 50+ minerals worth of mining time.
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(click for larger image)
I recorded the times when the Queens and Hatcheries finish, however I had some lag so they might be a bit too high, but not much.
13Pool: Queen after 182 seconds, second Hatch after 260 seconds. I didn't build the Hatch at 18 though, more like 20 or 21. Not sure how realistic/useful it is to build the second Hatch so early.
14Hatch: Second Hatch after 185 seconds, Queen after 215 seconds.
Those times are indicated by the vertical lines.
I don't think the second queen matters because that should come much later and depends a lot on the game so far. If you go Lair you won't need so many larvae right away.
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Amazing graph Asta, tyvm ^^. May I ask you what program you used to make it?
Also, it would appear that as far as larvae production goes, hatch first is better except from a tiny window where the first 4 larvaes spawn. Thus the only reason to go 13 hatch would be to get defenses faster.
Now we need to compare this graph with charliemurphy's pool timings to see if 14 hatch can manage to fight off the early pool builds. I'll work right on that =)
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On April 01 2010 10:40 Thamoo wrote:
Amazing graph Asta, tyvm ^^. May I ask you what program you used to make it?
Also, it would appear that as far as larvae production goes, hatch first is better except from a tiny window where the first 4 larvaes spawn. Thus the only reason to go 13 hatch would be to get defenses faster.
Now we need to compare this graph with charliemurphy's pool timings to see if 14 hatch can manage to fight off the early pool builds. I'll work right on that =)
I did that in Matlab.
For the early pools...
I tried either 13 hatch or 14 hatch yesterday against what turned out to be a 7 pool. You'll have to fight the first 8 lings with drones which actually works with the do-everything-for-you unit ai. However you will probably be behind in drone count afterwards. With defensive play you can still make a game out of it but you will be behind. But that's almost the worst case.
Not sure how the gas/tech timings are.
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It's too bad there are no graphs automatically in SC2 like they were in games like age of empires.
The graph here is hand contstructed which is doubtful to be exactly correct, for example the drone production early on is made with just a lineair stepwise increment but this is already false. Zerg stop at 10 drones for a sec and then instantly get 3, there should already be a leap there.
This won't matter for the end result but it does make me wonder how correct the graph actually is.
The total area under a drone graph equates the amount of workerseconds which if you only get minerals roughly equate the amount of minerals mined (minerals mine at a rate of 1/sec before saturation kicks in). As the exact curve thus matters for how much minerals you mined a crudely constructed one won't suffice.
To tackle this issue it would just be easier to do 2 build orders, queen -> hatch and hatch -> queen and then stop the game at some point after they are completed. Just check the total minerals mined and the number of drones then and see which is better with regards to economy.
First you would have the to devise the ideal build orders for both of these 2 though, do you use a hatchery trick yes/no, what time do you make the pool etc etc.
From the looks of it though it turns out that both builds are quite equivalent when it comes to economy if we go by the graph with 1 drone more for the hatch first build. This is not a negligible difference but not huge either.
In the end it seems to come down to the other advantages of either build. Hatch first can be great if it means your hatch won't get blocked on the other hand you can apply less last minute changes like responding to a all-in rush. Hatch first would arguably need faster scouting then queen first which makes the economic difference even smaller.
Queen first allows faster teching, 1 base variants and faster zerglings while hardly taking a economic loss, in other words more variety for a slight economic loss. In the end that seems worth more to me but both are very close.
I think the faster 2nd queen can be dismissed as a advantage by the way as a 2nd queen that fast will only result in wasted eggs i think. If that's not the case, which seems unlikely, then that might change the differences a bit more.
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On March 31 2010 14:58 Floophead_III wrote:
Pool Hatch Queen is much stronger than Pool Queen Hatch (with the exception of ZvZ). This gives you the option of going for a very fast lair and getting that queen at the nat. 90% of the time larva is not even a concern for zerg so that's the last thing I'd want to think about when playing zerg. Faster lair = more safety vs anything, which to me outweighs the queen more times than not.
How does getting a fast natural get you the lair faster? If you gas right when you pool and put 3 drones on it asap, build a queen as soon as the pool finishes, you get 100 gas just as the queen finishes to go Lair. The queen doesn't slow it down at all. Or do you have some sort of early gas build to go with fast expand?
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Very nice graph indeed Asta!
Sry about being away so long, ill try to update the post bronto.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/7CKfj.png)
