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maybe these 2 replays will help you??
http://himan.pl/download.php?id=76
http://himan.pl/download.php?id=77
Basically if I scout roach warden then I go for fast Immortal/sentry/zealot push
if I scout hydra I go for fast colosus etc.
The thing u said about the xpand, its TOTALLY correct!!! see in the LT replay I break his exp 2 times and still we have almost close supply. I lost a game to mass muta after breaking a Zerg's expansion but I truly understood what I did wrong in that game, it was my army composition that fucked up later on the game. hope it helped abit.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
You should really fast expand on any map that allows to do so.
Having 2 gas really helps to deal with anything for example you can afford colossi + enough sentry's to be muta safe as well etc...
Without having an expo its really much of a guessing game for P.
Go robo and be super vulnerable to muta or go mass and be super vulnerable to mass hyd roach...
I personally think the trend PvZ is showing will definitely require more maps like LT Meta Kulas etc where you can expo somewhat fast, while maps like Desert Oasis make up for total all in based play of P...
And if Z is good at reading the opponent, allin is always easily solved IMO, because there's not much of a choice what to do without an expo close enough.
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On March 09 2010 18:15 iNfeRnaL wrote:
You should really fast expand on any map that allows to do so.
Having 2 gas really helps to deal with anything for example you can afford colossi + enough sentry's to be muta safe as well etc...
Without having an expo its really much of a guessing game for P.
Go robo and be super vulnerable to muta or go mass and be super vulnerable to mass hyd roach...
I personally think the trend PvZ is showing will definitely require more maps like LT Meta Kulas etc where you can expo somewhat fast, while maps like Desert Oasis make up for total all in based play of P...
And if Z is good at reading the opponent, allin is always easily solved IMO, because there's not much of a choice what to do without an expo close enough.
if he roach rushes you, say you have 3 cannons, he breaks 1 out of 3 and breaks into your main eating probes, thats a huge economic disadvantage, you need to time early on so you can be safe from a roach rush or a rush in general, then what u gonna do vs mass hydras?? and what u say about robo is totally wrong, I mean going robo is the key vs mass hydr roach. also about muta dont u also have 3 warpgates pumping out sentries/stalkers to deal with them? I personally go 1 gate / robo upgrade warp tech then if I scout roach/hyd i make colosus and 2 more gateways, then attack. if i see muta i might go stargate dont make colosus and make phoenix + sentry stalker etc.
I dont know about the FE expand, i like the idea of it but dunno if its really viable to a zerg that knows exactly how to counter it.
PS: its funny a clanmate of yours mTwHorror tried FE'ing vs a friend yesterday that shares my account and he got roach rushed into hydras and lost.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Then my clanmate horror didn't make enough cannons.
Roach is easily stopped by 4-5 cannons.
If you worry about runby's I suggest you should learn to use a better building placement.
I don't even know what kind of FE strategy horror played, there's many of them, right after 2g with no zeal, after 2g and some zeal, before 2g, with forge, after some teching etc.
What I'm going to do vs Hydras?
Hmmm, let me think a second, storm or colossus MAYBE?
That's why I said you have gas to make those AND be air safe with an expo.
Long story short it doesn't really matter WHEN you get it, but you HAVE to get it rather quick, else Zerg will simply overpower you or tech-switch you to death.
You don't get an expansion up before - say the 7-8 minute mark, you're quite doomed IMO.
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haha I meant what u do against mass hydras when a good rush has done some short of eco damage. like the example.
ofc vs mass hydras u go colosus  colosus rape hydra anyways, I guess ur right with the right placement its easily doable  also its a nice fact that zerg's nowadays rely on 1 base first with queen and then expand.
btw what BO do you do? I havent done much experimenting, I have done the normal SC1 way it worked ok but with low level players i guess and also in a rep of WhiteRa i saw something really strange, he went something like 13-14 nexus with no gateway forge then made gateway then forge. kek. really risky imo...
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its not risky, he scouted and saw what the other player was doing (likely a fast hatch) and made a nexus.
the real toss up for me is a player who denys scouting information and just does a 1 base into nydus at your main. not sure quite yet how to deal with that.
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On March 09 2010 18:15 iNfeRnaL wrote:
You should really fast expand on any map that allows to do so.
Having 2 gas really helps to deal with anything for example you can afford colossi + enough sentry's to be muta safe as well etc...
Without having an expo its really much of a guessing game for P.
Go robo and be super vulnerable to muta or go mass and be super vulnerable to mass hyd roach...
I personally think the trend PvZ is showing will definitely require more maps like LT Meta Kulas etc where you can expo somewhat fast, while maps like Desert Oasis make up for total all in based play of P...
And if Z is good at reading the opponent, allin is always easily solved IMO, because there's not much of a choice what to do without an expo close enough.
Do you have replays showing good sim cities for maps with open nats or wide chokes? I'm drawing a blank there and the lack of gas really makes getting sentries and tech up hard.
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On March 09 2010 15:27 esla_sol wrote:
id say im pretty good in pvz
i like 2 gate as well (map permitting)
if you see an early roach warren, stop your zealot production (usually around 3 at this point). you will have more probes than drones than he will, so you are slightly ahead. at this point throw up a nexus first and then forge and start cannons. sac a probe to see his roach count. i usually stop probes around this time to get ample cannons.
once your tech is up and running, get an obs out first (always chrono your robotics) then straight to collosus. throw down 3 more gates. attack when your first collosus comes out, and go mass zeal if hydra/ling, or some stalkers if you see a spire. this push will kill him if he made too many roaches early game. send a probe with your attack so you can have reinforcements instantly.
in general im a big fan of doing some fast expand into mass push in the early mid game. its been pretty successful so far.
I've been doing this too, encountered roach after three zeal, went back and immediately expoed with 2-3 cannons, but i still get outmassed by hydra/roach/ling armies, even after spending all my money, chrono boosting colossi and getting forge upgrades
seriously, no matter what I do as toss, the only thing that seems to work is an allin 1 base timing push with immortals, and thats only if he went roach, which you cant force if you dont 2 gate
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If you kill the zerg's fast expo you should immediately expand yourself with canons, or even do it as soon as it becomes obvious that you will be able to kill his fast expo. He won't be able to attack you since you'll have enough minerals to get tons of canons if necessary while still getting sentries and teching to whatever. The Z's best bet is to re-expand at that point, which puts you at a pretty big advantage and forces him to play catch up. Unless you make mistakes or completely fail to counter his unit composition (expect lots of hydras, if he goes mutas you should be able to beat that easily), you should be able to win from that position.
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Why do people say Toss has 0 Tier 1 units that can deal with Roaches? This is one of the few matchups where Stalkers are actually good. They are much faster than roaches, they have a longer attack range than roaches, and they do bonus damage to roaches. Proper micro and a zealot or two with 4 Stalkers can hold off 8+ roaches while your Robo Bay finishes and you get your first CB'd Immortal out.
Generally, if it's PvZ and I scout the Z going fast Roach Rush, I go:
Pylon
Gate
Gas
Core
Pylon
Gate
Robo
Build zealots until your Core finishes, make some stalkers, hold your choke, get immortal, end roach push.
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EPT
