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I'm in gold division currently, and while I'm still experimenting with what units work against what units I'm starting to seriously run out of options concerning how to counter hydralisks. I've plopped a replay down here:
[url blocked]
In that particular game I decided to try upgraded marines backed by a ton of medivacs because I've seen that work on streams sometimes and because according to good old f12 the marine counters the hydralisk.
The fight happens around 20ish minutes, but to sum it up it was even psi armies, I had 1/1 upgrades, shield and stim. Mixed in a few marauders and hellions because of banelings.
Now, I think 3ish banelings did hit my army (and my opponent thinks that was the reason I didn't come out ahead), but I honestly don't think they made the difference considering how many hydra he had left over.
How do I deal with a Hydra army? Their counter unit, ahead in upgrades and healed by medivacs don't even work. I've tried hellions I've tried tanks I've tried marine/marauder, and absolutely nothing out-damages these suckers. The only way I've been able to win against a zerg that goes hydralisk so far was by hellion rushing him which is pretty much all in from my side since I can't easily transition out of a build that plops down 2 factories. And a hellion rush is easy to hold off by going roaches.
Now I know my macro isn't the hottest pot on the stove, especially after the big engagement at 20ish mins, but I honestly expected to just roflstomp his army this time, considering I attacking with an upgraded counter><
Anyways, halp?^^;
Edit: yes.. I did misspell literate..
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Try more upgrades, get tanks and hellions as well, both are great against hydras.
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A nice cluster of sieged tanks behind your marine line will make a wall of hurt for massed hydras.
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Upgraded hellions, a decently microed flank can kill like 24 in one shot.
too bad hellions are made out of glass....
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You can build 2 helionis at a time with a reactor so if you make a reactor with your rax while the fac builds then swap them you can get them out fast that is what i have seen and then transition to tanks shees ravenes mm&m etc.
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Hrm does any of that actually work? =P i.e. any replays of any of those strats holding their own against hydras? Not saying one of those might not work, just saying I've played all those builds and I've never gotten them to work out:
Hellions I agree do well against Hydra, until you have 10 hellions vs 10 hydralisks. They really only hurt alot of hydralisks when their flame hits 3 of them, which becomes impossible to do once there are enough hydra to just form a line. At least MY hellions lose effectiveness fast with numbers.
Tanks I found had 2 problems:
1) their range is too small.. sounds odd to say that about a siege tank^^;. But whenever I use tanks behind my marines all the zerg has to do is move back a tiiny bit, and the only thing in range of my tanks is my marines. Admittedly I could pull back and unsiege, but the moment I do that I get roflstomped by hydra.
2) They're not mobile. One nydus worm (be it via changeling or overlord vision) and I'm stuck with a full hydra army in my base and no way of pulling my tanks there in time.
And "try more upgrades" might work, but I was lucky enough that the zerg didn't counter-upgrade on his own^^;. Besides, I should not need 3/3 marines to fight off a freaking all-hydra army..
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3 banelings hitting a group of marines can do massive damage actually.
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Day[9] did a livestream on TvZ last night, and the most effective thing I've seen against hydra/(roach or baneling) armies are a marine/marauder army with tank support.
Raven's seeker missiles are also theoretically effective, but still experimental.
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On March 09 2010 12:58 Tinithor wrote:
3 banelings hitting a group of marines can do massive damage actually.
I'm sure they can, but in that particular fight I don't think they did. At most they probably cost me 12ish psi, and it was a 140ish psi fight at the start. Now if you want to say that tipped the scale, fine I can't prove you wrong, but the scale shouldn't have been even in the first place... that and I don't even think it tipped the scale since he was left with a huge hydra chunk and since I popped about 10 banelings without them hitting me.
Edit: is the fact that noone seems to have this problem an indication that mostly zerg players are posting or that I'm alot worse of a player than I thought? =P I know psyonic hates Hydra as much as me
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CowGoMoo vs. Artosis on Kulas Ravine (can find somewhere in the rep thread) where Artosis went mass hydra with some roaches. CGM went MMM + 1 fact producing siege tanks and was able to pull it off.
I've also found that a big enough MMM army (with upgrades) can stand up nicely to mass hydra. It comes down to positioning a lot of the time -- make sure your entire army is in the fight as pathing is quite bad when you had massive amounts of infantry. If the game goes long enough (i.e. lots of extra gas) make Ravens and get the Missile upgrade. Does wonders against any Zerg army.
Keep an eye out for the Greater Spire. Broodlord+Hydra seems to be one of the most effective ZvT unit compositions I've seen. If the Broodlord count gets too big you may have to start pumping Vikings (especially if the Zerg is microing them well).
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Ravens + Missile > Hydras and Mutas.
A few Siege Tanks in the back are good aswell.
Just don't fall behind in upgrades, and kill banelings #1 priority. Banelings are just fucking stupid.
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Alright I'll give it a whirl. I've seen that cowgomoo game before but I've also seen CGM get slaughtered by Hydra =P. Ravens with missile are pretty damn late-game, not sure I can survive the turtle that long. Suppose I'll try to find a good ratio of marine/tanks and hope the zerg doesn't know about nydus canals =(
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Has anyone tried Snipe with Ghosts?
2 Snipes will kill a Hydralisk at full HP, no matter the armor upgrade. Given that Snipe's range is decent, a Ghost can Snipe a Hydra without taking return damage.
A Ghost with full energy and proper micro can kill 4 Hydralisks in about 2 seconds with no return damage. Simply use Shift to queue up Snipes on the Hydras.
Once they're out of energy, the Ghosts' autoattack also deals bonus damage to Hydras, since they're light armor.
The benefit to using Ghosts over Tanks are that:
1. They're infantry, so they benefit from Ebay upgrades, which you're already getting for your main MnM force anyway.
2. They can be used to Snipe harass expansions. Each Snipe kills a drone. 4 Snipes will kill a Queen from full HP.
3. They're more mobile than Siege Tanks, allowing your MnM force to harass and push more effectively.
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On March 09 2010 13:44 Feefee wrote:
Alright I'll give it a whirl. I've seen that cowgomoo game before but I've also seen CGM get slaughtered by Hydra =P. Ravens with missile are pretty damn late-game, not sure I can survive the turtle that long. Suppose I'll try to find a good ratio of marine/tanks and hope the zerg doesn't know about nydus canals =(
You don't necessarily need HSM. Watch the MoRRoW reps from the latest zotac tournament and you will see MMM armies defeating mass hydra.
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On March 09 2010 13:50 Tomed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 13:44 Feefee wrote:
Alright I'll give it a whirl. I've seen that cowgomoo game before but I've also seen CGM get slaughtered by Hydra =P. Ravens with missile are pretty damn late-game, not sure I can survive the turtle that long. Suppose I'll try to find a good ratio of marine/tanks and hope the zerg doesn't know about nydus canals =( You don't necessarily need HSM. Watch the MoRRoW reps from the latest zotac tournament and you will see MMM armies defeating mass hydra.
Hrm alright I'll look for those. Must hold some secret since MY MMM army sure as hell didn't work =P
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On March 09 2010 13:48 madcow305 wrote:
Has anyone tried Snipe with Ghosts?
2 Snipes will kill a Hydralisk at full HP, no matter the armor upgrade. Given that Snipe's range is decent, a Ghost can Snipe a Hydra without taking return damage.
A Ghost with full energy and proper micro can kill 4 Hydralisks in about 2 seconds with no return damage. Simply use Shift to queue up Snipes on the Hydras.
Once they're out of energy, the Ghosts' autoattack also deals bonus damage to Hydras, since they're light armor.
The benefit to using Ghosts over Tanks are that:
1. They're infantry, so they benefit from Ebay upgrades, which you're already getting for your main MnM force anyway.
2. They can be used to Snipe harass expansions. Each Snipe kills a drone. 4 Snipes will kill a Queen from full HP.
3. They're more mobile than Siege Tanks, allowing your MnM force to harass and push more effectively.
Ghost doesn't kill Hydra in 2 Snipes. I don't know why, but the Hydra always has 1 HP left, even if I shift click it. It seems like it magically quickly regenerate that one health needed to survive.
First snipe -> Hydra at 45 health.
Second snipe -> Hydra at 1 health.
Funny is, if I don't use the second snipe immediately, the Hydra stays at 45 health for a while. Then I use snipe and blam! still 1 HP left.
I tried it only with one ghost though, maybe two at the same time will work...anyone got experience?
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doesn't really matter, ghosts are too gas heavy and weak to be used as realistic a counter to mass hydra
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Hydra is a lot better against bio T than they used to be, and a lot worse against T mech. Thor one shot Hydra. Hellions with pre-igniter 4 shot Hydra(!). I go T mech with Hellion and Thor against zerg every game and Hydra are not a problem at all.
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On March 09 2010 14:52 Mnijykmirl wrote:
Hydra is a lot better against bio T than they used to be, and a lot worse against T mech. Thor one shot Hydra. Hellions with pre-igniter 4 shot Hydra(!). I go T mech with Hellion and Thor against zerg every game and Hydra are not a problem at all.
I'd love to see a replay if you could spare the time. I've tried hellion only and got wasted. I figured thor was far too mineral/gas intense to be viable against a hydra ball, but maybe I'm wrong!
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The problem is you can't go Hellion only. Mix up some Hellions in your M&M ball and it'll work wonders - that's from my personal experiences anyways.
Thors are kinda iffy imo - they get swarmed by lings far too easily.
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United States4126 Posts
On March 09 2010 13:48 madcow305 wrote:
Has anyone tried Snipe with Ghosts?
2 Snipes will kill a Hydralisk at full HP, no matter the armor upgrade. Given that Snipe's range is decent, a Ghost can Snipe a Hydra without taking return damage.
A Ghost with full energy and proper micro can kill 4 Hydralisks in about 2 seconds with no return damage. Simply use Shift to queue up Snipes on the Hydras.
Once they're out of energy, the Ghosts' autoattack also deals bonus damage to Hydras, since they're light armor.
The benefit to using Ghosts over Tanks are that:
1. They're infantry, so they benefit from Ebay upgrades, which you're already getting for your main MnM force anyway.
2. They can be used to Snipe harass expansions. Each Snipe kills a drone. 4 Snipes will kill a Queen from full HP.
3. They're more mobile than Siege Tanks, allowing your MnM force to harass and push more effectively.
Ghosts cost 200 gas as opposed to a tank's 125. With proper backup, a sieged tank can do more damage than a ghost can, so it's a matter of resource efficiency.
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hellions may kill hydra fast but hydra also kill hellion REALLY FAST
tanks completely obliterate hydra with mm support, if u see them making a den just make sure you have like 3 tanks when you push out
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Hmm I'm currently leaning towards hellion/tank actually. Haven't played a good zerg yet but I like the way the build flows and it seems like hellions can manage alright if there's tank fire to help them out. Thors do wonders against muta if he techs that too. Roaches I'm not sure how to deal with effectively other than making marauders. Maybe thors work against roaches as well...
Anyways, thanks for all the ideas! As long as I still have buildorders to try out I won't scream IMBA =P
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i've noticed that turtling, marines+stim/tank with +1 weapon work rather well. make sure u bunker. when i get about 3 medivacs i should have like 30ish marines with 1 tank. i leave a few rines at my base with a tank, then i make another tank and scan. if i see a nydus i'll scout around my base for any overlords and then i'll go in for a drop if he isn't unit heavy in his base. if not i'll just push out.
hope it helps feefee--thanks for the TVP tips.
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hellions and tanks both do well, still it seems preferrable to have a MnM ball as your main army composition just because it's less gas heavy and more mobile + counters muta.
The general anti zerg strat to me seems MMM + hellion/tank and then medivacs and ravens. Ravens as you don't need alot of gas and all his abilities are good vs zerg.
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I'm kinda curious about the MM composition. Is it better to have more Marines or Marauders? In CGM vs Artosis, it was mainly a giant wall of marines with a few Marauders.
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Calgary25990 Posts
Everyone is over complicating this. Marauders and Tanks do really well.
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Seriously, cost for cost... you can't. Moreover, Zerg generally outmines you. It's stupid.
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Marauders should only be build in big numbers if there is a high number of roaches. In all other cases (except ultralisks) marines are better
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everyone is playing terran like its the new zerg or w/e where you just mass an army and charge in going lolol 1a2a3a4a or maybe thats toss  but the point is Terran is still Terran, its not some macho race where you can mass 50 rines with some medivacs and kill 30hydras with bane/lings thrown in. seige 2 tanks up, move back micro a bit and if he still moves in watch lol as his hydras get raped, dont engage out in the open this is zerg were talking about their motto is "were the swarm" so don't let them swarm you, take their advantage away by getting in some choke, if he's chilling in the open just get a tank line of like 4-5 seige tanks and then engage if you feel man enough. i think people are just playing terran to agressive when in SC2 zerg is most agressive race their is. relax a bit more, don't rush out in the open, let him funnel through that choke and melt away
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It's all about the tanks. Tanks shred hydras so fast. MMM + tank is the way to go against an army that is mostly hydras.
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Never had any problems vs hydras, upgrade marines and get tanks and it's all over.
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On March 09 2010 22:59 Chill wrote:
Everyone is over complicating this. Marauders and Tanks do really well.
agreed. tho marauders is mostly as tanks, I'd say get alot of marines always or lings/mutas will pwn you
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Marauders make decent tanks for the marines, but you definitely don't want your composition too marauder heavy if you're going up against a force made up primarily of hydras. I used to have trouble against hydras because my armies were too marauder heavy. As many have said, both tanks and hellions do well against hydras. Hydras can kill either of them fairly quickly ... the tank is a bit easier, just sieging it up behind your bio units to prevent them from being hit. Hellions you will have to do a bit more control. What I usually do is engage with my MMM so the hydras get nice and lined up parallel to my forces, then flank them from the side with hellions. With the igniter upgrade, 4 hellions 1 shot hydras. If you can line them up hellion will make extremely short work of the hydras, worth the losses you will take on the MMM.
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On March 10 2010 03:20 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 22:59 Chill wrote:
Everyone is over complicating this. Marauders and Tanks do really well. agreed. tho marauders is mostly as tanks, I'd say get alot of marines always or lings/mutas will pwn you
but if you make too many marines, banelings/roaches will pwn you.
Oh the dilemma!
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On March 10 2010 03:42 BlasiuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2010 03:20 Zoler wrote:On March 09 2010 22:59 Chill wrote:
Everyone is over complicating this. Marauders and Tanks do really well. agreed. tho marauders is mostly as tanks, I'd say get alot of marines always or lings/mutas will pwn you but if you make too many marines, banelings/roaches will pwn you. Oh the dilemma!
Yeah, you have to do your marine/marauder mix very carefully when going against zerg. Too many marines can get you killed in situations. Too many marauders will get you killed in others. You really have to scout out the zerg composition well and respond accordingly.
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A good way to beat the hydralisk "ball" is instead of beating it directly, beat it indirectly with economy harass/better economy than the zerg, in my(limited) experience it seems a lot harder to attack the terran with your slow hydras without nydus worming their base, so I have to play more defensive, I have lost several games just by the terran having a much better economy than me and thus a much larger army.
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tanks tanks and more tanks
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On March 09 2010 12:58 Tinithor wrote:
3 banelings hitting a group of marines can do terrible terrible damage actually.
edited
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target fire the banelings with the tanks, use seeker missile or micro you marauder in front, or use tanks to buffer the banelings.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/6243/hydracounter.png)
