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I'm in gold division currently, and while I'm still experimenting with what units work against what units I'm starting to seriously run out of options concerning how to counter hydralisks. I've plopped a replay down here:
[url blocked]
In that particular game I decided to try upgraded marines backed by a ton of medivacs because I've seen that work on streams sometimes and because according to good old f12 the marine counters the hydralisk.
The fight happens around 20ish minutes, but to sum it up it was even psi armies, I had 1/1 upgrades, shield and stim. Mixed in a few marauders and hellions because of banelings.
Now, I think 3ish banelings did hit my army (and my opponent thinks that was the reason I didn't come out ahead), but I honestly don't think they made the difference considering how many hydra he had left over.
How do I deal with a Hydra army? Their counter unit, ahead in upgrades and healed by medivacs don't even work. I've tried hellions I've tried tanks I've tried marine/marauder, and absolutely nothing out-damages these suckers. The only way I've been able to win against a zerg that goes hydralisk so far was by hellion rushing him which is pretty much all in from my side since I can't easily transition out of a build that plops down 2 factories. And a hellion rush is easy to hold off by going roaches.
Now I know my macro isn't the hottest pot on the stove, especially after the big engagement at 20ish mins, but I honestly expected to just roflstomp his army this time, considering I attacking with an upgraded counter><
Anyways, halp?^^;
Edit: yes.. I did misspell literate..
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Try more upgrades, get tanks and hellions as well, both are great against hydras.
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A nice cluster of sieged tanks behind your marine line will make a wall of hurt for massed hydras.
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Upgraded hellions, a decently microed flank can kill like 24 in one shot.
too bad hellions are made out of glass....
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You can build 2 helionis at a time with a reactor so if you make a reactor with your rax while the fac builds then swap them you can get them out fast that is what i have seen and then transition to tanks shees ravenes mm&m etc.
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Hrm does any of that actually work? =P i.e. any replays of any of those strats holding their own against hydras? Not saying one of those might not work, just saying I've played all those builds and I've never gotten them to work out:
Hellions I agree do well against Hydra, until you have 10 hellions vs 10 hydralisks. They really only hurt alot of hydralisks when their flame hits 3 of them, which becomes impossible to do once there are enough hydra to just form a line. At least MY hellions lose effectiveness fast with numbers.
Tanks I found had 2 problems:
1) their range is too small.. sounds odd to say that about a siege tank^^;. But whenever I use tanks behind my marines all the zerg has to do is move back a tiiny bit, and the only thing in range of my tanks is my marines. Admittedly I could pull back and unsiege, but the moment I do that I get roflstomped by hydra.
2) They're not mobile. One nydus worm (be it via changeling or overlord vision) and I'm stuck with a full hydra army in my base and no way of pulling my tanks there in time.
And "try more upgrades" might work, but I was lucky enough that the zerg didn't counter-upgrade on his own^^;. Besides, I should not need 3/3 marines to fight off a freaking all-hydra army..
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3 banelings hitting a group of marines can do massive damage actually.
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Day[9] did a livestream on TvZ last night, and the most effective thing I've seen against hydra/(roach or baneling) armies are a marine/marauder army with tank support.
Raven's seeker missiles are also theoretically effective, but still experimental.
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On March 09 2010 12:58 Tinithor wrote:
3 banelings hitting a group of marines can do massive damage actually.
I'm sure they can, but in that particular fight I don't think they did. At most they probably cost me 12ish psi, and it was a 140ish psi fight at the start. Now if you want to say that tipped the scale, fine I can't prove you wrong, but the scale shouldn't have been even in the first place... that and I don't even think it tipped the scale since he was left with a huge hydra chunk and since I popped about 10 banelings without them hitting me.
Edit: is the fact that noone seems to have this problem an indication that mostly zerg players are posting or that I'm alot worse of a player than I thought? =P I know psyonic hates Hydra as much as me
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CowGoMoo vs. Artosis on Kulas Ravine (can find somewhere in the rep thread) where Artosis went mass hydra with some roaches. CGM went MMM + 1 fact producing siege tanks and was able to pull it off.
I've also found that a big enough MMM army (with upgrades) can stand up nicely to mass hydra. It comes down to positioning a lot of the time -- make sure your entire army is in the fight as pathing is quite bad when you had massive amounts of infantry. If the game goes long enough (i.e. lots of extra gas) make Ravens and get the Missile upgrade. Does wonders against any Zerg army.
Keep an eye out for the Greater Spire. Broodlord+Hydra seems to be one of the most effective ZvT unit compositions I've seen. If the Broodlord count gets too big you may have to start pumping Vikings (especially if the Zerg is microing them well).
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Ravens + Missile > Hydras and Mutas.
A few Siege Tanks in the back are good aswell.
Just don't fall behind in upgrades, and kill banelings #1 priority. Banelings are just fucking stupid.
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Alright I'll give it a whirl. I've seen that cowgomoo game before but I've also seen CGM get slaughtered by Hydra =P. Ravens with missile are pretty damn late-game, not sure I can survive the turtle that long. Suppose I'll try to find a good ratio of marine/tanks and hope the zerg doesn't know about nydus canals =(
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Has anyone tried Snipe with Ghosts?
2 Snipes will kill a Hydralisk at full HP, no matter the armor upgrade. Given that Snipe's range is decent, a Ghost can Snipe a Hydra without taking return damage.
A Ghost with full energy and proper micro can kill 4 Hydralisks in about 2 seconds with no return damage. Simply use Shift to queue up Snipes on the Hydras.
Once they're out of energy, the Ghosts' autoattack also deals bonus damage to Hydras, since they're light armor.
The benefit to using Ghosts over Tanks are that:
1. They're infantry, so they benefit from Ebay upgrades, which you're already getting for your main MnM force anyway.
2. They can be used to Snipe harass expansions. Each Snipe kills a drone. 4 Snipes will kill a Queen from full HP.
3. They're more mobile than Siege Tanks, allowing your MnM force to harass and push more effectively.
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On March 09 2010 13:44 Feefee wrote:
Alright I'll give it a whirl. I've seen that cowgomoo game before but I've also seen CGM get slaughtered by Hydra =P. Ravens with missile are pretty damn late-game, not sure I can survive the turtle that long. Suppose I'll try to find a good ratio of marine/tanks and hope the zerg doesn't know about nydus canals =(
You don't necessarily need HSM. Watch the MoRRoW reps from the latest zotac tournament and you will see MMM armies defeating mass hydra.
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On March 09 2010 13:50 Tomed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2010 13:44 Feefee wrote:
Alright I'll give it a whirl. I've seen that cowgomoo game before but I've also seen CGM get slaughtered by Hydra =P. Ravens with missile are pretty damn late-game, not sure I can survive the turtle that long. Suppose I'll try to find a good ratio of marine/tanks and hope the zerg doesn't know about nydus canals =( You don't necessarily need HSM. Watch the MoRRoW reps from the latest zotac tournament and you will see MMM armies defeating mass hydra.
Hrm alright I'll look for those. Must hold some secret since MY MMM army sure as hell didn't work =P
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On March 09 2010 13:48 madcow305 wrote:
Has anyone tried Snipe with Ghosts?
2 Snipes will kill a Hydralisk at full HP, no matter the armor upgrade. Given that Snipe's range is decent, a Ghost can Snipe a Hydra without taking return damage.
A Ghost with full energy and proper micro can kill 4 Hydralisks in about 2 seconds with no return damage. Simply use Shift to queue up Snipes on the Hydras.
Once they're out of energy, the Ghosts' autoattack also deals bonus damage to Hydras, since they're light armor.
The benefit to using Ghosts over Tanks are that:
1. They're infantry, so they benefit from Ebay upgrades, which you're already getting for your main MnM force anyway.
2. They can be used to Snipe harass expansions. Each Snipe kills a drone. 4 Snipes will kill a Queen from full HP.
3. They're more mobile than Siege Tanks, allowing your MnM force to harass and push more effectively.
Ghost doesn't kill Hydra in 2 Snipes. I don't know why, but the Hydra always has 1 HP left, even if I shift click it. It seems like it magically quickly regenerate that one health needed to survive.
First snipe -> Hydra at 45 health.
Second snipe -> Hydra at 1 health.
Funny is, if I don't use the second snipe immediately, the Hydra stays at 45 health for a while. Then I use snipe and blam! still 1 HP left.
I tried it only with one ghost though, maybe two at the same time will work...anyone got experience?
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doesn't really matter, ghosts are too gas heavy and weak to be used as realistic a counter to mass hydra
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Hydra is a lot better against bio T than they used to be, and a lot worse against T mech. Thor one shot Hydra. Hellions with pre-igniter 4 shot Hydra(!). I go T mech with Hellion and Thor against zerg every game and Hydra are not a problem at all.
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On March 09 2010 14:52 Mnijykmirl wrote:
Hydra is a lot better against bio T than they used to be, and a lot worse against T mech. Thor one shot Hydra. Hellions with pre-igniter 4 shot Hydra(!). I go T mech with Hellion and Thor against zerg every game and Hydra are not a problem at all.
I'd love to see a replay if you could spare the time. I've tried hellion only and got wasted. I figured thor was far too mineral/gas intense to be viable against a hydra ball, but maybe I'm wrong!
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The problem is you can't go Hellion only. Mix up some Hellions in your M&M ball and it'll work wonders - that's from my personal experiences anyways.
Thors are kinda iffy imo - they get swarmed by lings far too easily.
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EPT
